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Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Deity worship... - prior to initiation - and in general



Devi dasa - Thu, 07 Oct 2004 23:34:56 +0530
Is it traditionally allowed to set up Gaur Nitai Deities in one's home (not formally installed though) and do arcana prior to mantra diksha? unsure.gif
Madhava - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:39:03 +0530
Certainly nobody would recommend that for you. Sometimes people ask, "but I already do that, what is the scriptural answer for this?" The answer is, "you should have consulted scriptures to begin with."
Devi dasa - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:53:29 +0530
I only found out this might not be ok long after being told that it was. I was told that Gaur Nitai deities don't take any offenses. blush.gif sad.gif
Madhava - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 01:54:48 +0530
At any rate, there's no point in packing up your whole altar because of this. However do try to seek out a guru who will initiate you and under whose guidance you can engage in proper archana.

Gaura-Nitai do not take any offenses? Well, I wouldn't push my luck with that. Gaura did take offence when Madhai assaulted Nityananda. They may be lenient, but it isn't like they have just switched off their offense-vision altogether.
Devi dasa - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:00:31 +0530
QUOTE (Madhava @ Oct 7 2004, 08:24 PM)

Gaura-Nitai do not take any offenses? Well, I wouldn't push my luck with that. Gaura did take offence when Madhai assaulted Nityananda. They may be lenient, but it isn't like they have just switched off their offense-vision altogether.

Well, what I was told was more specifically that Gaur Nitai murtis are merciful toward offenses like mistakes in arcana or missing elements, etc., or not being immaculately sattvic and brahminical about the condition of my apartment, etc., while having them there.

I really have a deep attraction to Deity worship and become easily absorbed in it. I have some previous background in liturgical ritual, etc., and have always been inclined that way.
Madhava - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:03:50 +0530
QUOTE (Devi dasa @ Oct 7 2004, 09:30 PM)
Well, what I was told was more specifically that Gaur Nitai murtis are merciful toward offenses like mistakes in arcana or missing elements, etc., or not being immaculately sattvic and brahminical about the condition of my apartment, etc., while having them there.

Certainly they are merciful in this regard, but it doesn't mean wholesale disregard of offence. For example, if you become complacent and think, "well never mind if I offend them, they don't care anyway," that would constitute an offence that is considered.


QUOTE
I really have a deep attraction to Deity worship and become easily absorbed in it.  I have some previous background in liturgical ritual, etc., and have always been inclined that way.

Whatever works in bringing you closer to Krishna, that is great. However, do remember that we always aspire to go forward and refine our services.
Govindaram - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 20:42:47 +0530
Isn't having pictures of Gaura-Nitai same as having Dietys? Its some kind of concession for those of us who don't know how to do deity worship yet.

I think personally its safer having pictures. Start simple then work your way up.
Advaitadas - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:22:37 +0530
shaili darumayi lauhi lepya lekhya ca saikati (Bhag. 11th canto) - The lekhya or picture is one of the 8 types of deities described in the Bhagavata. Worshipping pictures brings only benefit and no offences. One does not incur the sin of failing to worship when one stops worshipping them due to circumstances.
Hari Saran - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:25:52 +0530
QUOTE (Advaitadas @ Oct 8 2004, 03:52 PM)
shaili darumayi lauhi lepya lekhya ca saikati (Bhag. 11th canto) - The lekhya or picture is one of the 8 types of deities described in the Bhagavata. Worshipping pictures brings only benefit and no offences. One does not incur the sin of failing to worship when one stops worshipping them due to circumstances.

If one of the 8 types of deities is in the form of a picture, by saying: “Worshipping pictures brings only benefit and no offences.” How could you back up your statement? In other words, if the deities manifest in 8 different authorized forms how can there be a distinction?

Radhe Radhe; Nice to see you here.

rolleyes.gif
Advaitadas - Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:46:17 +0530
prana pratistha is done for deities with a murti form only. prana pratistha is what they call 'installation' in iskcon. A form made of sand for instance (saikati) cannot be possibly installed, huh? After Durga-puja in Kartika in Bengal, all the straw and wooden (darumayi) images of Devi are massively dumped into the Ganges. No offense is made here. So many types of images are not installed because they exist for only a while. What to speak of manomayi, the mental deity mentioned in the 2nd half of the sloka (which I was too lazy to quote in my previous post)! I am sure there must be the hows and wheres of these distinctions somewhere in smriti shastra, but these are the ancient practises of an entire population I have witnessed for decades. Whoever has any evidence for or against this from shastra is welcome to post it, looking forward to it. (whooops - I vowed not to enter controversy anymore on this or any other site! crying.gif )
Keshava - Sat, 09 Oct 2004 02:47:12 +0530
QUOTE
prana pratistha is done for deities with a murti form only.


I do not agree with this statement. All the eight forms of the Deity are equally worhsipable. Prana pratistha can and is performed on pictures and other forms.

QUOTE
prana pratistha is what they call 'installation' in iskcon. A form made of sand for instance (saikati) cannot be possibly installed, huh?


If it cannot be installed then it cannot be worshiped. That would be idolatry. The fact is that these temporary deities are installed and do have prana pratistha performed on them. The form of prana pratistha is however for a temporary deity. In other words the deity is called/avahana and at the end of the puja is sent away or valedicted/visarjana. The same is done for the deity in the mind during sandya vandanam when Gayatri devi is called/avahana, then chanted and meditated on and finally sent away or valedicted/visarjana.

QUOTE
After Durga-puja in Kartika in Bengal, all the straw and wooden (darumayi) images of Devi are massively dumped into the Ganges.


This along with Ganesha Caturthi are probably not the best examples because they are non Vaisnava pujas. Vaisnavas do as a rule not like to do visarjana or sending away of the deity. However a better example would be that of the sacred pots installed and worshiped in Hari Nam Yajna. The pots represent the panca tattva and other personalities. They are temporary deities that are invoked and worshiped and at the end of the ceremony they are valedicted or sent away. They are certainly installed or called/avahana. Otherwise there would be no divine presence to worship.

QUOTE
No offense is made here.


Offenses are made only when one is worshiping a deity (whichever of the eight forms it is). If the Deity is permanently installed then the chance for offense is perpetual, if not as with the case of temporary forms no offense can be made after valediction. However offense can be committed to these temporary forms while the deity's presence is temporarily invoked as with any other deity.

QUOTE
So many types of images are not installed because they exist for only a while.


This is incorrect. The temporary nature of the deity has no bearing on whether it's is installed or worshiped or not.

QUOTE
What to speak of manomayi, the mental deity mentioned in the 2nd half of the sloka (which I was too lazy to quote in my previous post)!


As stated above during sandhya vandana, avahana of Gayatri Devi is done and at the end of the procedure the valediction of the Goddess is done. Therefore even the deity within the mind can be invoked/avahana and valedicted/visarjana.

QUOTE
I am sure there must be the hows and wheres of these distinctions somewhere in smriti shastra, but these are the ancient practises of an entire population I have witnessed for decades.


Yes, but simply witnessing without understanding the details leads one to the wrong conclusion sometimes. As one who has studied Pancaratra Agama under the Professor of Pancaratra Agama at the Maharaja's College in Mysore I can assure you that there is more to it than meets the eye.

QUOTE
Whoever has any evidence for or against this from shastra is welcome to post it, looking forward to it. (whooops - I vowed not to enter controversy anymore on this or any other site!  crying.gif )


These quotes from Srimad Bhagavatam should be sufficient to prove my points:

zailI dArumayI lauhI
lepyA lekhyA ca saikatI
manomayI maNimayI
pratimASTa vidhA smRtA

calAcaleti dvividhA
pratiSThA jIva mandiram
udvAsAvAhane na staH
sthirAyAm uddhavArcane

asthirAyAM vikalpaH syAt
sthaNDile tu bhaved dvayam
snapanam tv avilepyAyAm
anyatra parimArjanam

"The Deity form of the Lord is said to appear in eight varieties: stone, wood, metal, paint, sand, the mind or jewels. The Deity form of the Lord, who is the shelter of all living entities, can be established in two ways: temporarily or permanently. But a permanent Deity, having been called, can never be sent away, My Dear Uddhava. The Deity that is temporarily established can optionally be called forth and sent away, but these two rituals should always be performed when the Deity is traced on teh ground. Bathing should be done with water except if the Deity is made of clay, paint or wood, in which cases a thorough cleansing without water is enjoined" S.B. 11.27.12-14
Advaitadas - Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:02:54 +0530
Thank you for that, Keshava. That was very helpful.
Devi dasa - Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:06:33 +0530
QUOTE (Keshava @ Oct 8 2004, 09:17 PM)
In other words the deity is called/avahana and at the end of the puja is sent away or valedicted/visarjana.

How is this done?
Keshava - Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:43:21 +0530
QUOTE (Devi dasa @ Oct 8 2004, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE (Keshava @ Oct 8 2004, 09:17 PM)
In other words the deity is called/avahana and at the end of the puja is sent away or valedicted/visarjana.

How is this done?

Usually the procedure involves mantras, mudras, and nyasas. However the mentality is IMHO the most important point.

One should meditate on the particular form of the Lord that one is calling. A dhyana or meditation sloka can be chanted to aid the devotees meditation. Then one invites the deity to come usually by chanting the diety's mula mantra or name along with avahayAmi or I call or invoke (you). This is sometimes accompanied with mudras for invoking and establishing, asking to stay, avahana and sthapana. There may also be the chanting of the mula mantra over the heart of the deity a certain number of times as well as mantra nyasas to enliven the senses of the deity. There may also be a specific prayer or sloka as in the case of Gayatri avahana and visarjana. The whole procedure will be more complex for permanent deities than temporary ones.

Most times the deity is concieved as expanding from the form within the heart of the devotee (antaryamin). In Pancaratra there are 5 forms of God. Karnika, Vyuha, Vaibhava, Antaryamin and Archa. They are concieved as expanding from each other in that order. So the Archa or deity is said to manifest from the antaryamin.

Then after puja the devotee does valediction with similar procedures calling the Lord to return to His abode or assimilate with the antaryamin. This is not done in the case of permanent installation.

Please note that only deities of the Lord are concieved as manifesting from the antaryamin by Vaisnavas. Demigods are concieved as coming and manifesting from their respective abodes and then later going back to their abodes.

Technical details can be had from HBV and other puja paddhatis.

Deities of Acharyas are dealt with in an interesting way which I will leave for my next post.
Devi dasa - Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:59:36 +0530
The pancaratric invocation and worship system clearly has a lot in common with other classical tantrika systems in general.

If will the help of Bhakti-devi and the grace of Sri Guru and Gauranga I progress appropriately & become quallified, I would love to become expert in this area.
gopalapriya - Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:24:52 +0530
Even if you were not properly trained in deity worship, what offensives could you possibly make that Gaura-Nitai would punish you for?
I am trained as a Jagannatha pujari and I can tell you that if God was giving out punishments for mistakes that we make while performing puja, I'm totally screwed... lol! When I first started my training I didn't know anything, most of the time I improvised and when I got confused I just chanted "Hare Krsna". and asked Jagannatha to forgive any offensives. Jagannatha knows my heart and I don't think that He would hold my ignorance against me, especially when He saw that I was doing my best.
Krsna doesn't care if you get your words exact or how many times you wave an arati lamp, what he cares about is your intention and where your heart is.
If you are serious about deity worship I would suggest that you learn from a qualified source though, for you own knowledge. The particulars are very intresting to study.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das
Keshava - Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:15:01 +0530
Dear Gopalapriya das,

I agree with you that the most important thing is your attitude. However if one has a devotional attitude one will endeavor to learn all the techniques of Deity Worship in detail. Once one knows these things in detail then one should endeavor to perfrom them properly. It is not a matter of who will or will not punish one or what offenses merit punishment as much as our attitude towards such offenses. We should always, even in the beginning, be mindful of the offenses and not be unmindful of them just because we are worshiping Gaura Nitai or Jagannatha.
Madhava - Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:29:22 +0530
Yes, some bhagavat-svarupas may be more lenient than others, but an attitude of "oh I cannot commit offences against them" is certainly dangerous.
Satyabhama - Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:42:46 +0530
QUOTE
Yes, some bhagavat-svarupas may be more lenient than others, but an attitude of "oh I cannot commit offences against them" is certainly dangerous.


Then again sometimes before my balakrishna murthy, I am afraid to do anything for Him for fear that I might do something incorrectly... at that time to fight the paralysis, I think- okay Balakrishna is very forgiving. If I mess it up accidentally, He won't mind...

I would really love to know ALL the details of deity worship... anybody want to teach me? smile.gif My people here don't "really really" know much about this stuff...
Keshava - Wed, 24 Nov 2004 04:10:18 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Nov 22 2004, 12:12 PM)
I would really love to know ALL the details of deity worship... anybody want to teach me?  smile.gif  My people here don't "really really" know much about this stuff...



Too easy.

If you want to know, just tell me what deity you wish to worship and what system (sampradaya or agama) you want to follow.

Simple home worship is easy to do.
Satyabhama - Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:40:24 +0530
QUOTE(Keshava @ Nov 23 2004, 10:40 PM)
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Nov 22 2004, 12:12 PM)
I would really love to know ALL the details of deity worship... anybody want to teach me?  smile.gif  My people here don't "really really" know much about this stuff...



Too easy.

If you want to know, just tell me what deity you wish to worship and what system (sampradaya or agama) you want to follow.

Simple home worship is easy to do.



Oooh! Thanks! I would like to know Venugopalaswamy w/ Rukmini and Satyabhama (and Krishna w/ Radha too) as well as Venkateshwaraswamy w/Sri and Bhu... I have balakrishna here also. smile.gif I am partial to Srivaishnavism and am used to our temple priest's style of deity worship (he is vadagalai srivaishnava) so that is basically what I am looking for. smile.gif
Keshava - Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:39:18 +0530
Well, for a start if you want to worship the following:

Venugopal Rukmini Satyabhama
Venkatesvara Sridevi Bhudevi
Balagopal

If you want to worship them separately then it's going to take longer. Usually what Sri Vaisnavas do at home is they have a salagrama and just worship all their deities through it.

Do you have physical murtis of each of these sets of deities?

The typical Sri Vaisnava worship is performed in 6 stages or asanas.

What I would do (what I do do) is take one set as the pradhana deities and just include the others in the bathing receptacle when bathing.

Astaksara mantra can be used as a common mula mantra.

Since you are a Vadakalai can I ask whether you have any objection to using omkara (Vadakalai women and male non-dvijas traditionally don't pronounce omkara)?

If you do them please substitute "am" wherever you see "om". (That's the taditional Vadakalai practice) (Also don't use any Vedic mantras)

The general form of the puja is as follows.

acamana
pranayama (could be Vedic or Astakshara or both)
sankalpa (Vadakalai version)
satvika tyaga
kurmadin adi sloka (dhyanam on Lord narayana and Vaikuntha and/or other dhyana slokas)
suprabhatam (at least first sloka)
pancapatra stapanam
1. mantrasanam
2. snanasanam
3. alankarasanam
4. bhojasanam
5. punarmantrasanam (sattumorai)
6. paryankasanam
satvika tyaga
Acharya tanian and guruparampara dhyanam

Let me get back to you with a pdf file with the full details





Satyabhama - Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:44:44 +0530
Oh! Thank you Keshava. Sure, I will await the PDF with anticipation.

To answer your question, at the moment I have only Balagopala, but the others will be either arriving via post (if my mother in law can find Balaji w/ Sri and Bhu) or I will (hope and plan to) acquire Them in India later this year. smile.gif
gopalapriya - Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:02:34 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 22 2004, 04:59 PM)
Yes, some bhagavat-svarupas may be more lenient than others, but an attitude of "oh I cannot commit offences against them" is certainly dangerous.



I totally agree.
That's is why Prabhupada tells us to begin worshipping a with a picture of guru, then gradually incorporate Gaura-Nitai because Lord Gauranga is more easily to forgive offenses, then later incorporate Jagannatha deities and then we can finally progress to Radha-Krsna. I certainly wouldn't recommend a novice to start off by worshipping Nrsma though... lol.
As our sadhana progresses we will naturally become more interested in learning the proper techniques of pancaratra-pradipa.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das
gopalapriya - Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:04:33 +0530
>>> I would really love to know ALL the details of deity worship... anybody want to teach me? smile.gif <<<

If your interested in deity worship you can get a book called "Pancaratra Pradipa" through Krishna Culture. It details the method of deity worship within ISKCON. This is the book that I was trained with.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das