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Membership Etiquette - what we expect and do not expect of each other



Talasiga - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:37:43 +0530
ISSUE 1
Someone (a member) who I am not naming (person "A") wrote to me
demanding that I find out another member's (person "B") email address.
I have deleted that message but I will discuss their demand here in general and anonymous terms:-

1. I have had no previous dealings with either "A" or "B".
2. I think the demand I received was rude and presumptuous.
3. I welcome communications from any member here in the spirit of friendship or, even in an adversarial spirit, where the communication may relate to the merits of some post or topic. However,
4. Do not write to me and tell me to do a job for you.
5. Look at my profile, read between the lines and have some respect, even if you have to feign it.

Thanks

Also, I am curious. Has anyone else received a message from someone they have had nothing to do with DEMANDING you to get someone else's email address?
Madhava - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:22:30 +0530
If such incidents persist, please contact the Administration. We are keen to protect the peace and privacy of our members, and will take action if any form of harassment will take place on the premises of the forums. Please feel free to report any such incidents, preferably forward the offending message in its entirety for the Administration.
babu - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:00:15 +0530
One could tell A that at the bottom of B's posts there is an "email" button should one so choose to email B.
Madhava - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:05:04 +0530
But if A would click on that, A's address would be revealed to B. If A needs the address for some heinous purposes, and would not expect a reply from B, then A's only option would be to ask C for the address of B. Otherwise, A can click on that button.

Of course, B, if he is concerned over his privacy, may select "Hide my email address from other members" under "E-mail settings" in his control panel. This will disable the e-mail feature for him. If that is the case, then B may PM A and inquire further on that matter.
babu - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:34:11 +0530
Yes, I was aware that B would have had that option of not replying as sanity seems to be a rare commodity with A and so B would most likely choose to not cast his email address before swine. My thought was, "A, you want to email B, then do it yourself" as obviously there is alterior heinous motive.

When in doubt, pm.

As Talasiga deleted this message (he does not say if it was a pm or an email), I would imagine if it was a pm, the administrators could go back and retrieve it.

Yes, this harassment and much more than "tell me to do a job for you."
and glad to know the administrators have zero tolerance for it.
jijaji - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:40:54 +0530
Must have been some covert sahajiya operation...or mayavadi demons!

unsure.gif
Satyabhama - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:44:41 +0530
QUOTE
Must have been some covert sahajiya operation...or mayavadi demons!


tongue.gif
Madhava - Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:37:02 +0530
QUOTE (babu @ Sep 22 2004, 03:04 PM)
As Talasiga deleted this message (he does not say if it was a pm or an email), I would imagine if it was a pm, the administrators could go back and retrieve it.

That would depend on whether we have a backup of the database from after the PM's arrival and prior to its deletion. We take daily backups, but if someone deletes a message immediately upon receiving it, there is no way we can retrieve it. Or, there is, but we are talking about costs in four-figure numbers or more.
Talasiga - Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:52:39 +0530
ISSUE 2
Confidentiality of PM/Email Communications between Members

Actually I received the "demand" by email. Even if I had received it by PM, I would not like Madhava or anyone else having access to the PM without the express consent of the sender and myself. This touches on each member's right to confidentiality in private communications. For me, the only consideration that will override the interests of confidentiality is the interest of protection of the community from violent or under hand illegal actions or schemes.

There was nothing EXPLICITLY illegal in A's demand. At this point it was just rude and presumptuous. It hasn't developed further. I have depersonalised it and it is dissolved in the void now. I present its engram to stimulate our consideration of membership etiquette.


Madhava - Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:32:05 +0530
QUOTE (Talasiga @ Sep 24 2004, 04:22 AM)
Actually I received the "demand" by email.  Even if I had received it by PM, I would not like Madhava or anyone else having access to the PM without the express consent of the sender and myself.  This touches on each member's right to confidentiality in private communications.  For me, the only consideration that will override the interests of confidentiality is the interest of protection of the community from violent or under hand illegal actions or schemes.

The only person with theoretical access to the PMs, along with the rest of the database, is the server administrator, namely myself. The data exists somewhere, and therefore someone can access it. The only data no-one can access is the one you keep to yourself. That being clarified, I have enough professional dignity as a website and server administrator to not go dig into other people's private affairs. Though laws on the privacy of stored e-mail (to which I would equate PMs, though others may not agree) are currently shabby at best, peeking into others' correspondence is ethically questionable. If someone is concerned over the issue, I can draft together a privacy policy for this website.

Sometimes members may request me to retrieve messages or delete messages. I would like to note that this is possible through running certain database queries without coming in contact with the text content of the message itself (messages are easily identified and processed with timestamps and sender / receiver id:s), and this is how I handle database management related with private messages whenever (rarely) necessary.

In this vein, I would like to issue a word of caution to our members who may participate on other forums / websites, whose administrators may not be as ethically conscious as I am, and even run the forums for the sheer kicks of gossiping, being attention-whores, or in general annoying people. Please be aware that your privacy may be breached on websites where the administrator may not respect values of common ethics and decency.

In general, for information that you consider very sensitive, please use channels where privacy is explicitly protected by law, such as telephone, fax or postal letters. Currently, e-mail does not enjoy such protection, and for example your employer may very well get away with reading your e-mails stored on your work computer without any legal implications. For reference, you may read this article. For privacy with extremely sensitive e-mails, I recommend encrypting the message. That, however, is a whole another story and something I do not personally bother doing with my day-to-day e-mails.
Talasiga - Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:14:53 +0530
My Issue 2 posting was an expression of my regard for the confidentiality of PMs and emails sent to me. I would expect the same from those to whom I send PMs and emails. Nothing in issue 2 posting was intended to construe that the forum administrator had any inclination to breach privacy of members' PMs.

I will not discuss other forum administrators here.
Madhava - Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:24:30 +0530
You wrote:

QUOTE
Even if I had received it by PM, I would not like Madhava or anyone else having access to the PM without the express consent of the sender and myself.

I wanted to clarify the matter on access. By sending a PM in these forums, technically you are granting the administrator access to that by the act of storing it on the server. I wanted to clarify the difference between access and accessing. The administrator has access, but he will not be accesssing them unless there are reasonable grounds to suspect illegal activity or blatant abuse (such as flooding) of the server database.
Talasiga - Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:18:39 +0530
QUOTE (Madhava @ Sep 24 2004, 10:54 AM)
.................. I wanted to clarify the difference between access and accessing. The administrator has access, but he will not be accesssing them unless there are reasonable grounds to suspect illegal activity or blatant abuse (such as flooding) of the server database.

Yes, that is very nicely clarified. Thanks.
Talasiga - Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:32:42 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 22 2004, 11:52 AM)
If such incidents persist, please contact the Administration. We are keen to protect the peace and privacy of our members, and will take action if any form of harassment will take place on the premises of the forums. Please feel free to report any such incidents, preferably forward the offending message in its entirety for the Administration.




I will keep this in mind and think about it.
Madhava - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:25:44 +0530
With regards to the question of whether abusive PMs are subject to privacy, I would deem that they certainly are, unless there is a pattern of abusive behavior taking place, which would be deemed as harassment. From the part of the administration, we will not be taking investigative action across the database over any given member's messages unless credible accounts of repeated harassment or database flooding are brought up.

If any one member feels like not receiving PMs from another, they can go to their private messengers and edit the PM Buddy / Block List to blacklist the members from whom they do not want to receive messages.
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:17:13 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 22 2004, 11:52 AM)
If such incidents persist, please contact the Administration. We are keen to protect the peace and privacy of our members, and will take action if any form of harassment will take place on the premises of the forums. Please feel free to report any such incidents, preferably forward the offending message in its entirety for the Administration.



To date I have not ever forwarded anyone's PM to me to any other party.
Neither here nor on any of the many other forums I have been involved with. This accords with my personal policy.

However I wish to put on record that

1. if someone abuses me by PM and I ask them not to send me any more PM's, I will not guarantee the confidentiality of any further PMs they send me. In other words I am saying I will no longer undertake private communication with that person and if the person persists with PMs such will no longer be deemed private. I will advise them of my deeming.

2. any person who undertakes PM communications with me, forfeits the right to confidentiality in relation to a particular PM that abuses me in terms of one of the heads of discrimination covered by anti-discrimination laws in OECD countries which reflect the principles of UN Human Rights charters. I am referring to abuse of a racist nature and such like.


I would commend adoption of such by others.
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:04:04 +0530
MEMBERSHIP ETIQUETTE

QUOTE(Madhava @ Jan 14 2005, 06:55 PM)
........

If any one member feels like not receiving PMs from another, they can go to their private messengers and edit the PM Buddy / Block List to blacklist the members from whom they do not want to receive messages.



Thanks Madhava. I guess this diminishes the need for item 1 in my above personal policy. But I will leave it there. Here is a a reviewed version. It applies to those with whom I am having ongoing PMs and do not wish to block on a permanent basis.

I wish to put on record that

* any person who undertakes PM communications with me, forfeits the right to confidentiality in relation to a particular PM that abuses me in terms of one of the heads of discrimination covered by anti-discrimination laws in OECD countries which reflect the principles of UN Human Rights charters. I am referring to abuse of a racist nature and such like.


I would commend adoption of such by others.
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:30:15 +0530
Actually, despite the range of differences I have had with Satyabhama, her lively and thoughtful PMs to me have always been of a standard that could serve as a model. I do not believe I would ever have to invoke my above policy in relation to her. smile.gif
Satyabhama - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:46:13 +0530
QUOTE
I do not believe I would ever have to invoke my above policy in relation to her.


I don't remember making any racist comments to you, Talasiga, so I hope I would not be subjected to your "policy!" tongue.gif

But really, thank you for considering my PMs worthy. flowers.gif
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:51:59 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Jan 15 2005, 02:16 AM)
QUOTE
I do not believe I would ever have to invoke my above policy in relation to her.


I don't remember making any racist comments to you, Talasiga, so I hope I would not be subjected to your "policy!" tongue.gif

But really, thank you for considering my PMs worthy. flowers.gif



Well, even if you don't deserve some, you must admit its a delicious policy, no?
I mean, I am sure some people would like to dig into it .....

jijaji - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:06:52 +0530
Well Talasiga..

I will say here in public I am suprised you are incapable of accepting an apology...

You needle a person to no limit sometimes it seems. ..and sometimes you hit when a person is down.

dont worry your on my ignore list and will stay there...


The pretense here is getting suffocating...


rolleyes.gif
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:49:33 +0530
MEMBERSHIP ETIQUTTE

QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 02:36 AM)
Well Talasiga..

I will say here in public I am suprised you are incapable of accepting an apology...

You needle a person to no limit sometimes it seems. ..and sometimes you hit when a person is down.

dont worry your on my ignore list and will stay there...

frankly, I think it''s time I leave 'Istagosthi 2' and all you with such lofty 'policy' standards..

The pretense here is getting suffocating...


rolleyes.gif



I am quite capable of accepting apologies but that does not make me accept just any apology that comes along.

My standard for apologies is that there must be, at some level, some parity in the "passion" or "shakti" in the apology and the thing being apologised about. Its not a cerebral thing, its a guts thing. Its what convinces us of the apology.

Also, sometimes the process of accepting an apology is gradual.

However, please don't misconstrue harmless remedial actions taken as flagging an unforgiving attitude. If a snake attacks me in my bush vegetable garden, I will forgive it in time for it was acting according to its nature. But that will not stop me
from putting up a more secure barricade around the garden. This doesn't mean I despise the snake. There is nothing lofty about it. Its just plain ol common sense.

Common sense has a lot of value in how we relate. Jagat has been teaching me this.

Thank you bangli for inspiring this post.
jijaji - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:52:46 +0530
Hey no worries Tala..

No interest here whatsoever..in maintaing contact, like I said I think you needle people too much to get satisfaction, so I can just put you on ignore..

it's easy

smile.gif
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:08:00 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 04:22 AM)
Hey no worries Tala..

No interest here whatsoever..in maintaing contact, like I said I think you needle people too much to get satisfaction, so I can just put you on ignore..

it's easy

smile.gif




The thing is bangli you started a topic about red wine in a Gaudiya forum suggesting that its OK to drink it for health purposes.

I simply pointed out that red grape juice has the same health virtues.

You challenged me asking me for some research back up.

I provided you with three links that backed up what I said.

Now, what happened after that? Take it very slowly, mull it over. What happened then and how did it happen? Take your time with this if you need to.

And how did you come to decide to change the title of that topic and edit out your first post after almost 5 pages of contributions? Is this a proper exercise of your editing powers?
jijaji - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:28:54 +0530
Tala,

Your a funny guy and put on a good show in public...

I am an honest person..what you see is what you get.!

but to YOU I say..GET LOST!

laugh.gif
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:50:57 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 05:58 AM)
Tala,

Your a funny guy and put on a good show in public...

I am an honest person..what you see is what you get.!

but to YOU I say..GET LOST!

laugh.gif




I am honest in my own way too. I gave you an honest in principle account on my view on accepting apologies. I cannot see the nexus between that post and your behaviour here and in the other topic. Posts like this from you do not dignify the apologies you keep offering in this forum not only to me but to the readership in general.

I would prefer to keep this topic on the generality of MEMBERSHIP ETIQUETTE. Of course our comments may be informed by things experienced by us but I think it is possible to distil or identify something positive and idealistic or pragmatic and remedial from the particular as an offering for a universal consideration.

Nowhere in this topic did I mention that the recent issues related to you. It was you who popped up and identified yourself and thus a personalisation of the issues ensued. If you are not able to make a constructive contribution to this topic of "Libran ambience", may I suggest you to stay out. Your attempts at insulting me are neither hurtful nor funny.

jijaji - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:02:22 +0530
QUOTE(Talasiga @ Jan 15 2005, 11:50 AM)
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 05:58 AM)
Tala,

Your a funny guy and put on a good show in public...

I am an honest person..what you see is what you get.!

but to YOU I say..GET LOST!

laugh.gif




I am honest in my own way too. I gave you an honest in principle account on my view on accepting apologies. I cannot see the nexus between that post and your behaviour here and in the other topic. Posts like this from you do not dignify the apologies you keep offering in this forum not only to me but to the readership in general.

I would prefer to keep this topic on the generality of MEMBERSHIP ETIQUETTE. Of course our comments may be informed by things experienced by us but I think it is possible to distil or identify something positive and idealistic or pragmatic and remedial from the particular as an offering for a universal consideration.

Nowhere in this topic did I mention that the recent issues related to you. It was you who popped up and identified yourself and thus a personalisation of the issues ensued. If you are not able to make a constructive contribution to this topic of "Libran ambience", may I suggest you to stay out. Your attempts at insulting me are neither hurtful nor funny.




blah blah blah blah blah...

stop and be a person and I will respond accordingly..

talasiga I love you but will not tolerate your fake online persona...

biggrin.gif
Talasiga - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:13:33 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 06:32 AM)
.......blah blah blah blah blah...

stop and be a person and I will respond accordingly..

talasiga I love you but will not tolerate your fake online persona...

biggrin.gif



Just try and love yourself first.
jijaji - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:24:48 +0530
QUOTE(Talasiga @ Jan 15 2005, 12:13 PM)
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 15 2005, 06:32 AM)
.......blah blah blah blah blah...

stop and be a person and I will respond accordingly..

talasiga I love you but will not tolerate your fake online persona...

biggrin.gif



Just try and love yourself first.




"If Ya wanna sing out sing out, if ya wanna be free be free, coz there's a million things to be, ya know that there are"

flowers.gif