Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.
Obtainable only by mercy - How is our bhajan viewed from "above"?
Sakhicharan - Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:32:14 +0530
Here are some things that have come to mind lately.
We all know this is a "descending" process, in other words we don't pull ourselves "up" so to speak, but rather the grace descends upon our heads.
What I want to discuss is how our practices influence this descent of the grace we all aspire for.
For example, how much does hearing and meditating on the lilas attract Sri Radhikaji's affectionate glance?
How about taking 3 lahks of Sri Nam daily?
Let's examine lila-smaran a little. We become imbued with the bhavs we thirst for, but how does this quasi "fake it till you make it " work?
That is a gross way to state this idea, but how does trying to imbibe these bhavs attract the grace?
Jagatji has quoted this verse recently "astu tAvad bhajana-prayAsaH kevala-tAdRzatvAbhimAnenApi siddhir bhavati" Forget about making any effort at bhajan--simply by having the sense of identity that "I am Krishna Das" you can attain all perfection.
Here we are talking about no effort in bhajan, but Jagatji also seems fond of saying somethng along the lines of "Sri Nam will demand something from you at some point"
Many facets to a gem.
In short, I want the shelter of my Sri Swamini!
Dear assembly of Vaisnavas, please tell me how I can reach my goal!
Anand - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:40:23 +0530
| QUOTE |
We all know this is a "descending" process, in other words we don't pull ourselves "up" so to speak, but rather the grace descends upon our heads.
What I want to discuss is how our practices influence this descent of the grace we all aspire for.
For example, how much does hearing and meditating on the lilas attract Sri Radhikaji's affectionate glance?
How about taking 3 lahks of Sri Nam daily?
Let's examine lila-smaran a little. We become imbued with the bhavs we thirst for, but how does this quasi "fake it till you make it " work?
That is a gross way to state this idea, but how does trying to imbibe these bhavs attract the grace?
|
I am sure readers would be better served if someone else responded to the questions put here, but given that no one more experienced and knowledgeable is coming forward I will throw in a couple of cents, perhaps as bait for real significant answers.
As far as I understand this subject matter, no one practice at all will “influence” Grace, as an entity, to descend. This descent happens completely independently of any practice, so I believe it is safe to say that “influence” is minimal if any. The minimal influence that may occur would be, perhaps, in the sense that in our practice we may find ourselves overcome with an intense sense of helplessness and dependence, which may attract then an agent of Grace. This of course is what we have come to know as causeless mercy. It is given indiscriminately but best absorbed where there is more need.
Also we have heard the advice, “Don’t try to see God but act in such a way that He will want to see you.” The good part that I seen in this advice is that one does not have to “fake” to follow it but genuinely and naturally act as if in a dependent position. This does not reflect a temporary state of consciousness but actually nurtures the permanent state of our constitutional position in relation to the object of our dependence, which is of loving servitude and creative dedication. The ball is in our court as far as qualifying, as far as how much intensity we will apply into our practices. Which are, after all, non different from the very activities we aspire to engage in eternally. There is no need to fake it if you already feel that you are nowhere and thus you beg for rescue. You only have to refine such consciousness.
Sakhicharan - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:32:14 +0530
| QUOTE (Anand @ Sep 18 2004, 03:10 PM) |
Also we have heard the advice, “Don’t try to see God but act in such a way that He will want to see you.” The good part that I seen in this advice is that one does not have to “fake” to follow it but genuinely and naturally act as if in a dependent position. This does not reflect a temporary state of consciousness but actually nurtures the permanent state of our constitutional position in relation to the object of our dependence, which is of loving servitude and creative dedication. |
Anandji,
Thank you for your valued insights.
When I mentioned "faking" I meant that we are in effect imitating the Ragatmikas in our raganuga sadhan. We are out to encompass the bhavs They have. So the idea of just being "dependent" instead of clearly showing Radhika and Krsna the way we desire to interact in Their nitya lila would seem to fall short of what we need to do as raganugiya Vaisnavas.
Is this clear? More input please.
Anand - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 03:12:05 +0530
As I said earlier, a more experienced practioner would best speak here or at least someone with some satisfactory degree of academic qualification.
But…
From my simple point of view, I would say, even if your intent is to encompass the bhavas that the Ragatmikas experience, you do not need necessarily copy, or imitate their activities per se, but be concerned with the bhavas themselves. Don’t put the oxen before the cart. The process of grace is descendent but our practice will be ascendant, that is, we will begin with the concept that I am Krsna das, I belong to Him. We will not attempt to show Radhika or Krsna what we desire because we in fact are not clear ourselves what it is that we have to offer to Krsna as far as interaction. Our practice of encompassing the Ragatmikas’ bhavas into our consciousness is through serving Sri Guru. Why serving? Because we are in want, we are attracted, we see Sri and we fall in love. Sri Guru is non different from God. By offering our Love, our bhavas to Sri Guru, he will then reveal to us which specific activities, form, mood of ours will please Krsna the most.
Sakhicharan - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 03:40:38 +0530
Anandji,
The word "imitate" has it's faults to express these concepts, no doubt.
Others have used "following in the wake of", however that doesn't always satisfy either.
What I am trying to express is that in our fledgling attempts at purifying our bhavs it can appear as a type of imitation.
This confusion is probably caused by my attempt at bringing a sublime concept down to the level of mere words
As far as not being clear in what we desire that can admittedly be a tricky concept.
I have some strongly cherished feelings as how I would like to do the seva of my Svamini.
In short I would love to ......
Actually, I have only revealed this to one person and I will leave it at that.
Sakhicharan - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:15:42 +0530
| QUOTE (Anand @ Sep 18 2004, 04:42 PM) |
| Sri Guru is non different from God. By offering our Love, our bhavas to Sri Guru, he will then reveal to us which specific activities, form, mood of ours will please Krsna the most. |
If you want to nail down an answer to this topic in the shortest way possible, then we can say it is all by the grace of Sri Guru.
You said "what could please Krsna the most", in this case, although we are in the mood of servitors (being the Rupanugas that we are), I think this is a case where we are in a position where we can "demand" something. Hell, this is called LOBHA!.
Damnit, I want to do Radhika's srngara or bust!
That mood is a good example of what I mean.
Let's ponder this.
In Jaiva Dharma Raghunath das Babaji asked his sisyas Brajanath and Bijay about the type of seva they aspire for. Once they revealed their hearts cherished moods he gave his blessings and encouragement.
He asked what their desires were.
Let's go on and on.
A many faceted gem!
I think that much crucial siddhant can be revealed in these conversations.
Satyabhama - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:17:19 +0530
| QUOTE |
| You said "what could please Krsna the most", in this case, although we are in the mood of servitors (being the Rupanugas that we are), I think this is a case where we are in a position where we can "demand" something. |
Radha and Krishna want to be wanted. Nothing wrong with demanding, since it seems demanding makes Them happy.
They love your impatience. When, Beloved? When When When When When?
Anand - Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:33:04 +0530
The nature of revelation is that there has to be something concealed in the first place. Then revelation. The path of love is twisted, crooked, codified, because it is not static but in perpetual motion. What is to be known by those seeking that path are the references, landmarks, directions, but not a final absolute destination. It is a path that has been thread by some who will then give directions but will not fabricate (for us) a final destination that will be a facsimile of their own. Our own individual reality is never a copy of anyone’s but a new addition to Krsna’s ever increasing lila, which is unlimited and uncontainable. Thus we are given directions, guidance (blessings and encouragement), but ultimately we must thread the path by our very acting on it.
The analogy has been made that bhakti (lobha by another name?) is already there in our hearts awaiting to come out, as fire is already within a wet piece of wood. When fire proper touches wet wood, at first there is smoldering and smoke then gradually fire will come out. But wet wood will not burst into fire without the touch of another burning log. So grace has been likened to fire that has to come from a source which is already “in flames.” By associating our consciousness with the consciousness of those who we perceive as presenting symptoms of what we feel in our hearts, our moods, then a spark might come and set us on fire as well. In that sense I suppose it is indeed the case that we will show our greed and even suggest details of in what form we like this greed to manifest.
As to the question of when, when, when, I wouldn’t rule out that one answer from Radha-Krishna would easily be, “Whenever you are ready, my dear.”