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Discussions on the nectarine qualities and pastimes of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri-Sri Radha-Krishna. Please don't copy and paste here without starting a discussion.

The Limits of Prema - Why Sri Caitanya cover the mouth of Raya

Radhapada - Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:31:07 +0530
Why during the talks between Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanya did Sri Caitanya cover the mouth of Ramananda Raya?
Madhava - Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:06:01 +0530
Interestingly, although Mahaprabhu blocked the mouth of Raya Ramananda, Ramananda still recited some verses of his own composition about prema-vilasa-vivarta.

As for why Mahaprabhu tried to block his mouth, naturally it must be related with the evolution of His tasting Radha-bhava, and Ramananda's revealing the deep mysteries of Radha-bhava to Him in the course of their discussion. But the exact emotional outburst which prompted Him to act as He did is beyond my grasp at the moment. An act of divine irrationality, where one simultaneously desires to hear and to block the speaker from speaking.

I am reminded of Radha, when during mana She at the same time never wishes to see that black person again, desiring to forget Him for good, yet can't hold Herself back from constantly speaking about Him!

Would anyone like to write more about prema-vilasa-vivarta? It would help us enter deeper into understanding what exactly prompted Mahaprabhu to act as He did.

I'll post something from Ananta Das Baba's lecture on Vilapa Kusumanjali's verse 72, where he elaborates on this section of Ramananda Samvada.
Madhava - Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:17:41 +0530
Pandit Sri Ananta Das Babaji, patha on Vilapa Kusumanjali #72, given at Radhakunda on April 7, 1999:

Now Sri Dasa Gosvamipada’s heart and mind have gone to the kingdom of lila again. In a transcendental vision he sees that Radharani and Govinda are brought to Madana Sukhada Kunja, where he/she has made a bed, where he lays the Divine Couple to rest. Here kinkari Rupa and Tulasi witness a wonderful pastime. There is no one else there. The sakhis are also absent in the kunja. Through the holes of the kunja Tulasi beholds the yugal vilasa. When the Yugal see the wonderful bed that kinkari Tulasi has made for Them there They get the desire for a special pastime. There is no solitary place of enjoyment like Radhakunda. Then there is Madana Sukhada Kunja (even more special), and on top of that is the wonderful bed made by kinkari Tulasi.

So they become absorbed in Their transcendental pastimes, which are also called prema vilasa vivarta. What is so special in that? What is called vilasa? Why should we be shy to think of this? There are the gradual steps of practise, like hearing and chanting these pastimes. Then there is sankirtana (congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord). All this must be done first. All this is called anarpita carim cirat, the great gift of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some may think that Radha and Madhava are perhaps mundane lovers. One approach to understanding is tattva and the other one is rasa. If in sugar or cream one nim leaf is put the taste is spoiled. The relish is not in the form or appearance, but in the ingredient.

Mahaprabhu wanted to hear the vilasa mahattva (the greatness of Radha-Krsna’s pastimes) from Ramananda Ray. Why is the word mahattva used here? When Mahaprabhu heard the glories of Radha-Krsna’s love from Ramananda Ray, He said:
prabhu kohe janilo ei radha krsna prema tattva;
sunite cahiye tara vilasa mahattva

“Thus I learned the truth about the love of Radha and Krsna; now I wish to hear about the greatness of Their pastimes of enjoyment.”

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 8.186)
There is an enormous glory here. The bhagavata paramahamsas meditate on this. Behold the Lord’s bhakta vatsalya and the bhaktas’ prema. In His childhood Krsna is bound and reared by His mother Yasoda – how blissful! Just behold the Lord’s affection for His devotees! He is beside Himself of ecstasy! Krsna plays with His friends, who climb on His shoulders and offer Him fruits they have already partly eaten. Here we can see how the Lord is subdued by the love of His devotees, who serve Him like that. The summit is the mahabhava seva of the Vraja-sundaris and Krsna’s subsequent subjugation to that. This is not a wordly thing, but the topmost spiritual event, the summit of divine love. Here we see the summit of the Lord’s loving subjugation. Rama Raya speaks of this mahattva –
prabho! ray kohe krsna hon dhira lalita;
niravadhi kama krida kore tahar sahita.
ratri dina kunja krida kore radhar sange;
kaisor boyos saphal koilo krida range.

“Krsna is called Dhira Lalita, for He always engages in lusty affairs with Radha. He plays with Her day and night in the kunjas, thus He makes His adolescence a success.”

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 8.187, 189)
This is called mahattva. He who is the Supreme Lord, the source and shelter of everything and everyone, who is worshipped for ages and ages by the greatest sages and mystics who covet even a speck of His footdust, the Original Personality of Godhead, Who is self-satisfied and self-delighted, is thus engaged day and night by His sweethearts in vilasa. ratri dina kunja krida kore radhar sange; kaisor boyos saphal koilo krida range. (He plays with Her day and night in the kunjas, thus He makes His adolescence a success).

r>Prabhu kohe eho hoy age koho ara, The Lord said: “That is allright. Tell Me more.” Ray kohe iha boi buddhi gati nahi ara – “Ramananda Ray said: My intelligence does not go beyond this.” How much had he revealed about the vilasa mahattva of Radha Madhava and of the Lord’s subjugation to His devotees, who love Him the most, but still the Lord asked on. Ramananda Ray said: “Prabhu, my intelligence does not reach any further. accha, in that case all that is left for me is to sing You a song of mine, so that You can see for Yourself.” eto kohi apan krta gita eka gailo; suni preme prabhu svahaste tara mukha acchadilo (CC) “Saying this, he sang a selfmade song, but the Lord covered over his mouth with His own hand.”

You see, the Lord Krsna and His sakti Radha are in principle one. Listen I will tell you - radha krsna eka atma dui deha dhari - Radha and Krsna are one soul in two bodies. That is, from beginningless time. The energy and the energetic are divided in two bodies for always to relish Each other’s flavours. anyonya vilaser rasa asvadana kori. Therefore in truth You are One, but for the sake of relishing rasa you have become two? When Their minds are turned outwards They feel that They are two - Radha and Krsna, but when Their minds become antarmukhi (turned inwards) towards vilasa, then these two antarmukhi minds become one. This is the pure siddhanta of the Gosvamis. When pranaya becomes intense, then mind and intelligence become one, and a sweet meeting takes place. The bodies are two. Then Ramananda Ray sings:
pahilahi raga nayana bhanga bhelo
anudina barhalo - avadhi na gelo
na so ramana na ham ramani
duhu mana manobhava pesala jani

“First our attachment was expressed through our eyes. It increased every day, without end. He is not the male lover, nor am I the female lover - Cupid has pressed their minds together - merged them.”

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 8.194)
In the Bhagavata’s Rasa-lila the gopis came running towards Gopinatha. One more thing we must say about this. The Vedas say tat tvam asi - you are brahman. In lila this oneness means the oneness in heart and purpose of the Lord and His devotees. In the Bhagavata Suka Muni described the Rasa-lila, which took place one autumn night. Not eternal, just the first meeting. What more happened? There’s no way to find out from the pages of the Bhagavata, so Sri Jiva Gosvami elaborates on this in his Gopala Campuh [Purva Ch. 33].

After that They met in a lonely place, spoke rasika subjects with Each other, exchanged loving feelings with Each other, had all kinds of loving dalliances with Each other. Finally as the pastimes proceeded They became so absorbed in Their pastimes that They considered night to be day, day to be night, the outside to be home, home to be the outside, winter to be summer and summer to be winter, and finally the hero to be the heroine and the heroine to be the hero. Then Sri Gosvamipada said that this loving exchange was taking place between Krsna and all the gopis, but Radha’s prema had attained such an inconceivable stage because She is endowed with full mahabhava. Now such a pastime is taking place.

Sri Sri Radha Madhava relish the sweet pastime of reclining. In many pastimes there is purposeful reversal of roles. It is seen in many places, but this is not always called prema vilasa vivarta. When, however, They become so absorbed their minds become one and then it is na so ramana na ham ramani duhu mana manobhava pesala jani [He is not the hero and I am not the heroine, our minds were merged by Cupid]. This is the svarupa laksana (intrinsic characteristic) na so ramana na ham ramani [He is not the hero and I am not the heroine], this is the karya (symptom). Rupa and Tulasi see the kunja-pastimes - how wonderful is their fortune!
Madhava - Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:18:04 +0530
So, more thoughts on this, anyone?
Radhapada - Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:40:35 +0530

Anymore insights from the scholars?
jiva - Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:47:07 +0530
In my understanding,Madhura Rati,in its different aspects or conditions may be,successively,according to its stages of growth or intensity of manifestation:1.Preman,2.Sneha,3.Mana,4.Pranaya, 5.Raga,6.Anuraga,7.Bhava or Mahabhava (this classification follows the Rasarnava-sudhakara of Singabhupala).

Pranaya,may be Maitra,friendship characterised by humility,or Sakhya,fellowship free from apprehension.

What is the connection...?

Madhava - Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:54:14 +0530
What is the connection...?

These are definitely the different stages of divine love, though there are additional stages which exist in the later end of the list.

But connection with what?
jiva - Tue, 25 Jun 2002 03:10:27 +0530
I mean on connection of pranaya (mentioned by Ananta Dasa Babaji) and bhakti-vilasa vivarta("transcendental pastimes").

Pranaya means "generating FRIENDLY confidence" (visrambhayati)   or I am wrong?


P.S. Quote raga:"...there are additional stages which exist in the later end of the list."

Yes, Raga may be either Nilima or Raktima.The Nilima Raga may be Nili-raga or Syama-raga etc...The aspects of Anuraga are:paravasibhava,prema-vaicittya,aprani-janma,
vipralambha-visphuti .Bhava may be-rudha,adhirudha etc...
Madhava - Tue, 25 Jun 2002 03:58:27 +0530
I mean on connection of pranaya (mentioned by Ananta Dasa Babaji) and bhakti-vilasa vivarta("transcendental pastimes").

Baba states, "When pranaya becomes intense, then mind and intelligence become one, and a sweet meeting takes place."

Of course there is a connection. Pranaya is an essential ingredient in prema-vilasa-vivarta. If there was no loving intimacy and a feeling of union devoid of awe and reverence under all circumstances, how could such pastimes exist?

Though Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu narrates an example of a priya narma sakha's placing his arm on the shoulder of Sri Krishna amidst His being worshiped by the devas, such pranaya is certainly present in rasas beyond sakhya, just as all qualities of the elements are present in earth.