Guru-tattva, ISKCON and Ritviks - Diksa guru

Hari Bol Prabhus,

Ths GBC (Iskcon) has reversed its Final Siddhanta and reissued such. This is still more or less is contingent on the historical treatment of Gaudiya Vaishnavism than on an actual order by the living link Srila Prabhupada.

On May 28, 1977, Prabhupada stated (parahrase) "When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru, that's all. Just see."

The Ritvik alignment accepts the July 9, 1977 order only authorising ritvik initiations and that the disciples are his.

The May 28, 1977 idiscussion is betwen Tamal Krishna Goswami and a direct answer to Satsvaraupa Maharaj.

I understand that Sridhara had embraced the idea but Narayana Maharaj is against any concept of Prabhupandanuga or Prabhupada follower.

Your Servant
Bhakta-David

Bhakta David,
the july ninth letter does not say there should be ritvik gurus when Prabhupada leaves the planet. It only mentions 11 gurus by name. Now those gurus are mostly blooped. According to the letter, only a few ritviks remain. And when they leave, who will be left?

It does not say anything about continuing the ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada leaves. Rather it was only to break in the new gurus and allow the other devotees to see that Srila Prabhupada authorised it. You have been cheated by KrishnaKanta. He won't even accept initiation himself because he is waiting for the GBC to hand over all of Iskcon's devotees to him for initiation.

Nowhere in his books did Prabhupada say to break the traditional disciplic succession existant since time immemorial and ignore guru,sadhu and sastra and begin following krishnakanta desai. Sorry.

Hari Krishna Prabhus

I am not particularly interested in Sridahara's or Narayana Maharaj exclusively. If anyone has any quality perspective of Diksa & Siksa that is the general background hence guru tattva.

Here in I believe Krishna Kant extends his exposition on the July 9 1997 directive by stating that Prabhupada wished for the GBC to run as it is after the ritvik order was in place.

He argues that the eleven zonal acharyas converted themselves from ritviks to diksa gurus sua ponte , or by one's own order. There is no order in the May 28, tape in the Final Siddhanta. Srila Parabhupada is stating "when", a future conditional not a "this is" the order. Hence a diksa guru is self effugelent. I believe Hrdayanda is the only original member standing and now resides in Beverly Hills CA.

Here there is a conflict of the open texture of Gaudiya Vaishnaivism, informal personal conversations, and a technical adherence to formal directives that were legally binding for all Iskcon members and specifically the GBC.

Thank you for your consideration.

Hare Krishna,
Your Servant,

Bhakta-David

I'd have to agree with Rasaraja there. This really isn't in the genre of the site, nor does it concern most of our audience here. Nor is it a Question or an Answer, which is what this section is for.

If anything is clear, it is the fact that AC Bhaktivedanta was anything but unambiguous over his idea of how the thing would go on after him. Therefore, most of these debates are pretty much a futile waste of time.

The short of it is that the ritvik-concept is not practiced anywhere among traditional Gaudiyas. The end of story, pretty much, as far as this forum is concerned.

If, however, we start on the assumption that AC Bhaktivedanta was a genuine follower of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and that he introduced practices in harmony with the ways of the tradition (sAdhu-margAnugamanaH), we can have a meaningful discussion befitting the spirit of the website as we examine the traditional concept of guru-tattva. [There have been a good many threads on that, see here for some relevant links.]

If someone is interested in pursuing this line of thought, let me know and I'll revise the topic title to reflect this. Otherwise, we'll have to move this over to the ISKCON/GM section (where posting is for full members only).

And folks, remember it's Janmastami today.

Hari bol

Actually, Jayapataka Swami is also "still standing." And although he won't be initiating any new disciples, Satsvarupa dasa Goswami is still an ISKCON member in good standing, with many disciples who are satisfied with his guidance.

So, counting Hridayananda Goswami whom you mentioned, three of the original eleven are still continuing as ISKCON gurus with their disciples.

SDG Online In Satsvarupa's Maharaj's own words:

David ji,

If you are interested to pursue the ISKCON-matter further, I invite you to fill in your profile as instructed here to have your membership upgraded to a "Full Member", to expand your posting priviledges outside this subforum. That topic also explains the reasond on why participating in certain kinds of topics require a greater degree of identification than a mere nick.

Since it seems that the ISKCON-orientation of this thread continues, the topic will be shortly moved over to the ISKCON/GM subforum.

Thank you very much.

Dear Bhakta David:

Want to read something on guru-tattva? Go here:

http://www.loibazaar.com/Merchant2/merchan...Product_Count=2

and order that book. In my humble opinion the best introduction you will get to the traditional GV understanding of guru. Buy it, read it & then re-evaluate any of this ritvik business.

Also, if you are interested in continuing this conversation, please post a bio & become a full member so Madhavaji can move this conversation to the ISKCON discussion area...

EDIT: Added after some more thought..

Also, as mentioned in posts previous, debating the nature of guru tattva is much more in the theme of the site, instead of endless quibbles over which ISKCON guru has 'blooped'. Personally I find such types of conversation tinged with vaisnava-aparadha anyways.. As vamsidasji stated, I'm happy offering them honor for chanting the Holy Name, and allowing others to do so, and the less spoken about their faults, the better.

I do hope you decide to become a full member here, and can begin to explore some of these issues in more depth. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but so many of us have come here to escape the multitude of forums out there that endlessly debate hese kinds of things on the most visceral level...

Yours,
DC

Hari bol Prabhus

Many persons do not know such but Sridhara Maharaj was consultant to the GBC for diksa initiations. This response from Sanga (Tripurari Prabhupada initiated and follower of Sridhara) gave clarification to some of the instructions given to Tamal Krishna Goswami, Jayapataka, and Satsvarupa concerning Guru Tattva.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

As expressed in another post devotees left ISKCON/GM for many reasons whether based in a lack of faith in Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja/Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's teachings, the failings of their institutions or a personal conviction or faith in those not accepted within BSST/ACBSP teachings. At GD I believe the majority left the family of BSST/ACBSP due to a lack of faith in Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja/Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's teachings as opposed to simply being disssappointed in their institutions.

You have to remeber that faith is subjective so if your faith is firmly with BSST/ACBSP I don't know that your question and specifically how these instructions parlay into those institutions and/or the lives of their followers will be too fruitful for a follower of Swami Maharaja as viewed by members of GD.

I do think that the whole ritvik debate is even more polarized with those outside of the ACBSP 'universe'. Guru tattva is one thing in which we can all discuss whereas ritvik is not as it simply has no place in our lives as it simply isn't a byproduct of the Goswami's teachings.

Good luck.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

SDG Online In Satsvarupa's Maharaj's own words:

I moved this to the Gaudiya Math section. Sorry, Bhakta David, but as Madhava said, this does not really concern us here that much. There are plenty of places where people are ready to do the To Ritvik or Not to Ritvik Dance.

Become a full member by filling out your profile and post here if you like.

Jagat, you beat me by a couple of seconds in moving this thread. I started reading at Q&A, and then clicked the move button, and the thing told me: "You cannot move this topic into the same forum, well, you could but there wouldn't be a lot of point." Ha!

In the meantime, Bhakta David filled his profile and I upgraded his account.

Hari bol prabhus

Regardless of one's position on ritvik. Tripurari's crew at Sanga are posting what I would refer to as the basic Guru tattva position per Iskcon and Gaudiya Math. Diksa and siksa guru are essentially one and cannot be differentiated.

If you approached such about diksa-siksa this is most likely the citation that will be given. (Caitanya Caritamrta)

I have not had the time to read the selection that you have cited yet. I am wondering from what you see is there a noticeable effect that the Guru tattva discusssion is having on the various Vaishnaiva Maths?

Your Servant

Bhakta David

Gopidust has written:

Hari Bol Dharma Chakra

Srila Prabupada is asking that the entire world become siksa gurus. Essential all spiritual knowledge is descending thus manifesting as Guru Tattva as one surrenders. Chaitanya has requested such also and this is what Prabhupada is, was doing and what his disciples should be doing, associating as we are to gain spiritual knowledge. (I am praying that this is cent percent correct). You are discussing the most prominent conditions of Guru Tattva.

According to Prabhupada this is how a 10,000 Golden Age from Every Town and Village was to occur.

Bhakti ki jaya,

Bhakta David

May I ask, David ji, where are you heading with this Ritvik issue? Do you have a particular point of view yourself, where do you stand on this?

The short of it, again, is that both the Ritviks and the GBC are confused over guru-tattva. The Ritviks propound a siddhAnta which does not follow the precedent of our sampradAya, and the siddhAnta of the GBC seems to fluctuate every other year. So why don't we rather focus on finding the correct siddhAnta? I am certain that would be in the best interest of everyone concerned.

Dear Bhakta Dave,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I know this is probably very hard for you to understand but no one here cares about the whole ritvik theory in ISKCON. Firstly because no one hear is a member of ISKCON. Secondly because it has nothing to do with Gaudiya theology. You can dress the argument up in a different set of clothes each day if you like but no one cares as it is irrelevant to our spiritual lives. Is this really that hard to understand?

“It is considered an offense to initiate your own disciples while your diksa guru is present.”

Actaully ACBSP said it is general etiquette not to initiate in the presence of Guru not an offense. Furthermore outside of ISKCON/GM this is not much of a principle. It is not rare that disciples, with the blessing of Guru, do initiate even during the physical presence of the Guru. Even in ISKCON there are circumstances where disciples of ACBSP have disciples that are diksa Guru’s such a Srila Maha Visnu Maharaja and Srila Kadambakanana Swami.

“Hansadutta and Tamal Krishna Goswami who was present accepts the fact that Prabhupada gave no such order you are arguing Gaudiya tradition not Prabhuapda. The Prabhuapada Sankirtana Society offers ritvik inititiations.”

Strange that it took him, what 14 years, after the fact to remember this. Strange, or a matter of conveinance, how that happens sometimes… Face it these men act as Guru’s regardless. They “are” Prabhupada’s “true” representatives and they give the “final” decision on what ACBSP “meant”. Sort of like a Guru except they accept no personal responsibility. Sounds like a great deal…

I remember having lunch with both Hansadutta and Srila Bhakti Caru Swami in NYC when Hansadutta made his famous attempt to re-enter ISKCON. I remember the great laugh they had over the ridiculous nature of the ritvik theory. Hansadutta sure had a different take of the ritvik theory that day. Hansadutta even talked about visiting Kapindra dasa to "talk some sense into him or bring him to the pysch ward".

“Again my humble apologies. Most devotees do not know both sides of the case and are forced to ritualistically accept only one side. I did not wish to be intrusive.”

Most devotees have heard this theory ad nauseam and have a hrad time buying something that is both historically unprecedented and somehow managed to not even be given a reference in the Goswami’s writings. Is not ACBSP that said "Everything is in my books"? So he spends 20% of his time speaking on the importance of chanting Hare Krsna which is fundamentally simple to understand yet he took the idea of parampara and changed it up with no mention inhis books. Hmmm.

“Again there are ritvik groups about five to be exact. There is going to be a festival near New Talavan on November 14, 2004 in Mississippi. This malabarism is one reason why a striaightforward person would be frustrated by superiors.”

If you really want to get out this terrific news try doing it at a website where somebody, anybody, cares.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa





Madhava Prabhu

I was just repsonding to Gopidust. Some of her use of the language and the MECHANICS of the debate are noticeably faulty. It will come down to P and Q or not P and Q. One has to make that decision within their own mind and heart.

Again though, the other positions on Guru-tattva in this line are straightforward.
This is easily Guru Tattva and Iskcon.

Hare Krishna

Your Servant

Bhakta David

Utsaha mayi: A brahmana child, having just begun study of the scriptures, thinks he has immediately become a learned scholar worthy of everyone’s praise. Similarly, a person just beginning devotional service may develop the audacity to think that he has mastered everything. He is called utsaha mayi, or filled (puffed-up) with enthusiasm.


From Madhurya-kadambini, by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura

Hari bol Vamisa dasa

You have invoked Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta. Is it possible for you to give reference on Guru-tattva hence the Diksa-Siksa position as regards what Madhava
has brought forward? This is one of the greatest issues in the Vaishnava world today.

Hare Krishna

Your servant

Bhakta David

Haribol Madhava

I have just finished reading the sample by your Maharaj. I thought it was quite good. Since he is quoting Bhagavata and Chaitanya Caritamrta I believe things should be quite close. I'll find some quotes and purports on this and you can respond later on.

Here is what I thought was interesting at the very end:

Hari bol Prabhu Madhava

Here are some quotes by Prabhupada on Guru Tattva:

VNN: Prabhupada Guru Tattva

Narottama dasa Thakura says, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: without serving a pure devotee, one cannot advance in spiritual life." (S.B. 4.22.22)

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service to him. The self realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." (Bhagavad Gita verse 4.34)

The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. (Adi 1.35)

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions ? For example in questions that may arise... Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books. (Conv. 5/13/73)

So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered. (Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing. (Letter Rupanuga 10/19/74)

Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you... Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapu. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani. Narayana: But how do they know they're pleasing you ? Srila Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of Guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how can he be pleased ? Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the Guru says, then automatically we'll do that. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed away in 1936, and I started this Movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then ? I am getting the mercy of Guru. This vani. Even if Guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help. Sudama: So there is no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instructions of Guru.

"Whether I am present or not present, it doesn't matter. As Krsna is living eternally, similarly, living being also lives eternally. But kirtir yasya sa jivati: "One who has done service to the Lord lives forever." So you have been taught to serve Krsna, and with Krsna we'll live eternally. Our life is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. A temporary disappearance of this body, it doesn't matter. Body is meant for disappearance. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So live forever by serving Krsna. (Conv. 5/17/77 Vrndavana)



Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. (Lec 7/4/77 Honolulu)

Caitanya Mahaprabhu's, this Krsna consciousness movement propagana, what is this propaganda? He says that "Every one of you become guru." He wants not rascal imitation guru but real guru. That He wants. Because people are in darkness, we require many millions of gurus to enlighten them. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is, He said, that "Every one of you become guru." Amara ajnaya guru haya tara ei desa. You haven't got to go foreign countries. Wherever you are, you teach; become guru. It doesn't matter. Ei desa. He says, ei desa. If you have got power, you can go other country, but it doesn't require. In whichever village, whichever country or town you are, you become a guru. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Amara ajnaya guru haya tara ei desa. "This country, this place." So, "But I have no qualification. How can I become guru?" There is no need of qualification. "Still I can become guru?" Yes. "How?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: "Whomever you meet, you simply instruct what Krsna has said. That's all. You become guru." (Lec. 5/21/76)



There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. (Adi 1.47)

Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on." (Adi 1.35)

"A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.

Bhakti ki Jaya,

Bhakta David

If you quote something, it is a good idea to demonstrate why you would quote it by telling us how it is relevant. Otherwise, I am certain all of us could paste in pages and pages of references from different granthas.

Ritvikism; can someone wake me up when this thread is finished?

Hari Bol Prabhu babu

I am emphatic to your stated position. Otherwise do you have any comment on Guru Tattva as per what Prabhupada or Madhava has stated? This is important because usually within one year this consideration will come up to one seeking diksa and it is interesting to see the difference within the same and also different Gaudiya traditions.


Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Bhakta Davidji,
I think you have been around a long time by all of your knowledge. You asked something about why Srila Prabhupada said,"on my order" and why he never ordered the ritviks to become full gurus. Well it's kind of hard once you leave your body to come back and order your disciples,"do it NOW!", that's why.

Has anybody ever come back and ordered their disciples to become gurus? Now the burden is on you for a change. On the one hand, you say we cannot initiate in the presence of the spiritual master, on the other hand, you want the spiritual master to tell the disciples to start initiating while he is still present.

Make up your mind. Which one is it?

It is so funny you coming in here and trying to win a fight with these devotees.

Happy Srila Prabhupada's appearance day.

Ok, I have to admit, my curiosity is rather piqued...

Why would it be offensive to initiate in the presence of one's diksa-guru, yet not offensive to think that your siksa-guru is incapable of giving you diksa? I would be curious to see the argument in defense of this position.

By definition, the one you seek siksa from, you consider being worthy of giving you the knowledge to lead to your ultimate goal. Worthy of giving the intimate details of bhajana, yet this same guru can not provide you with diksa? This person can not provide you with any connection to the living stream of gurus?

I'll admit a little ignorance in the Saraswati-parampara as a 'siksa' parampara, but this is taking it to an extreme... and as mentioned before, where is the scriptural evidence for this kind of approach? You are basing all of this on one conversation Srila Prabhupada had? I have as of yet to see a quote that ACBSP wanted everyone to become 'siksa' gurus... nevermind the idea that this was Mahaprabhu's intention...

DharmaChakra wrote:

I'll admit a little ignorance in the Saraswati-parampara as a 'siksa' parampara, but this is taking it to an extreme... and as mentioned before, where is the scriptural evidence for this kind of approach? You are basing all of this on one conversation Srila Prabhupada had? I have as of yet to see a quote that ACBSP wanted everyone to become 'siksa' gurus... nevermind the idea that this was Mahaprabhu's intention...

All Iskcon devotees and Prabhupada followers are under orders to become siksa gurus.

I did not find the exact quote yet but it is overwhelmingly supported.

Here is a page:
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9905/ET14-3861.html

If one searches VNN there will be a dearth of material as search: siksa guru.

I'm in hurry and hopefully I've gained an insight on this as I find it interesting also. I would be more than happy to run this down.

The quotes are Prabhupada.

Your servant

Bhakta David

"According to sastric injunctions, there is no difference between siksa-guru and diksa-guru, and generally the siksa-guru later on becomes the diksa-guru." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.12.32 Purport)

"The word guru is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, siksa-guru and diksa-guru. Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world." (Cc. Madhya 8.128 Purport)

This is a sastric injunction and there are ample examples of such siksa gurus going on to become the primary guru of a devotee.

"Thakura Bhaktivinode was not official Spiritual Master of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja was already renounced order, Paramahamsa, but Thakura Bhaktivinode, while He was even playing the part of a householder, was treated by Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja as Preceptor, on account of His highly elevated spiritual understanding, and thus He was always treating Him as His Spiritual Master. The Spiritual Master is divided into two parts; namely, siksa guru and diksa guru. So officially Bhaktivinode Thakura was like siksa guru of Gaura Kisora das Babaji Maharaja." (69-05-01 Letter to Dayananda)

I remember hearing that it is even an offense to give a person instructions in front of your spiritual master because if he is an uttama adhikari and you are a kanistha you should be letting him do all the talking. Who are we to try to instruct someone in front of our gurus?

But the guru can always tell you to go and preach to someone.

Srila Prabhupada had to tell his disciples how to wash their own butts so it's no surprise he also had to break them in as gurus.

The gbc changes their final siddhanta so many times that the ritviks book, The final order, is now defeating a paper that the gbc themselves say is no longer valid. What the GBC should do is just quote statements from Srila Prabhupada in general about who can become a guru. Forget the list of July 9, 1977. It is obsolete.

Ok.. my scratch has been itched.

1. Its not that ACBSP didn't want disciples to become siksa-gurus.. its did he want them to only become siksa gurus?

2. I don't get it... my question is still unanswered. How is it not offensive to have a siksa-guru that you consider unworthy of giving diksa?

Hats off to anyone trying to reform/move/educate ISKCON, I just really have no interest in it. I hope you continue to pursue KC as your spiritual path, and I wish you all luck with it.

Yes it is obviously an offense to say your siksa cannot take you back to godhead or give you advice. That is the problem with the ritviks. They can always tell their siksas they don't want to listen to them like the christians who say whatever you read in the bible is good for you. If the bible tells you to eat meat then that is good for you. It is simply chrisitianity adopted for today but using krishna consciousness. Cheating that's all.

Hari Bol Mahdhava

I can understand your views. Bhaktisiddhanta did not appoint a successor and Sridhara and Prabhuapda emerged. Every master has to be seen in his own context. Your point here is good, just abstracting from the the scriptures will be good but lack historical texture. The masters all appear to adjust a few minor points.

Maybe it would be a good idea to move the prompt to academic eclectic because of the ritvik content. Otherwise to my knowledge there should be no differences in Prabhupada ISKCON followers.

An interesting point to note is that ISKCON is Prabhupada's Math. He did not authorise any of his students to start their own to my knowledge. They could have taken siksa guru's after he died. If they are not in ISKCON now you are out a la Tripurari. In reality this is good. If Kirtananda and Tripurari have aspirations outside of directly following Prabhupada's lotus feet then one should leave.

This has some sardonic feelings and a lot of deceptive overtones but it is the best and most honourable choice.

The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want. (Letter Madhudvisa 8/4/75)

...the difficulty is that our GBC men are falling victim to maya. Today I trust this GBC and tomorrow he will fall down. That is the difficulty. If the GBC men are so flickering then what to speak of the others. Unless this problem is solved whatever we may resolve it will not be very useful. (Letter Jayatirtha 12/16/74)

I think it is best thing if the GBC members always travel on Sankirtana Party in their zone and go from one village to another and visit the temples to see how the students are learning and do my work. In this way, they will avoid the propensity to sit down and plot and scheme how to eat and sleep. So you can advise them all to travel extensively on Sankirtana all over their zone. (Letter Karanandhara 5/4/72)

"Now has the GBC become more than Guru Maharaja? As if simply GBC is meant for looking after pounds, shilling, pence. The GBC does not look after spiritual life. That is a defect. All of our students will have to become guru, but they are not qualified. This is the difficulty." (Letter Alanatha 11/10/75)

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari Bol Madhava,

You wrote in Intitiations:

Puzzles me, why do it by proxy in principle? The person who's there could just do it himself, it's from him the name is heard anyway. This is what my Baba does, he just tells the disciple to give harinAma if the initiate isn't able to come to meet him in person.


The disciple here giving harinam is the ritvik. The ritvik guru is the representative of the diksa guru.

Regardless of nomenclature, Baba (I have been addressing such as Maharaj, which is prefered?) does use this concept.

Has Baba discussed continuity as I see from his photo he looks strong but is not a young man? How is disiplic succession continued?

Hare Krishna

Your Servant

Bhakta David

David wrote:

Hari bol

I don't think that would be necessary. It fits under the heading of ISKCON etc. just fine.

One thing I'm still not clear on is where do you stand on this?

As far as ISKCON is concerned Prabhupada gave no direct order. The May 28, 1977 is ambigous as far as calling a future conditional as "When I order you... an order. Everything else before it culminates in the July 9 1977 directive where 11 devotees are ordered to be represenatives of the diksa guru.

Diksa is a spiritual substanitive process and even a real order is not going to make one qualified who is not. Do not get me wrong I don't find that at lot of ISKCON devotees dont study or have good sadhana. ISKCON was basically chartered to perpetute Prabhupada's teachings. It is turning into a property mangement concern and a device for whomever wishes to control such.

These are secondary considerations. There are 80 diksa gurus in ISKCON now. The more gurus they create the worst things appear to get. I do not wish to be offensive but you have to be real. This is somewhat related but there is to be a hearing on September 14, 2004 regarding what has been a reported $45,000,000 settlement to child molestation victims.

The Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition would support them but were they qualified? The results speak for themselves.

Hare Krishna

Your Servant

Bhakta David

Hari Bol
Babru

Bhakta David,

aren't you ashamed that only new devotees for the most part join with Krishnakanta?

If you hadn't have ever heard the teachings of krishnakanta would you have ever thought of a ritvik system?

Krishnakanta has some secret knowledge or something?

Before Krishnakanta it was Nityananda or someone who wanted sex with a 16 year old and wanted to take her for a second wife thus causing a big lawsuit against iskcon.

Never mind I'm sure you think ritviks are just fine since it is so similar to Christianity you probably were just waiting to hear about this all along. Gurus ended with Srila Prabhupada according to ritviks, who you take the word of over the word of Srila Prabhupada himself, so go ahead and get cheated. Follow Krishna kanta Daysigh.
Jagat guru mr. daysigh ki jaya!

gopidust

So, David ji, since your concern is with the welfare of ISKCON and Prabhupada's mission, what are you going to do about it?

I bet the devotees in San Diego were in ecstacy when Ramesvara admitted he was an uttama adhikari.

BhaktaDavid yesterday wrote a comment in the irm stating that he has just joined another gaudiya group and is preaching to them?

Sorry I don't know how to cut and paste but he said something about guru tattva and how it should help the irm.

Hari Bol
Prabhu Madhava

I believe the best thing is to return to a back to basic approach. I am going to increase the quality of basic sadhana. I have restarted reading Caritamrta as of two days ago. (Madhya Lila). I believe raising my daily activity to the mode of goodness is essential than attempt to transcendentalise at a moderate pace. I have to be more rigourous in chanting. When I am at a temple I easily do upwards of thirty-two rounds if my service permits.

I am just taking it very-very slow. The IRM completely has defeated ISKCON in India in regards to the Bangalore temple. The Supreme Court recently refused to hear the GBC appeal. The Prabhupada Sankirtan Society has legally had a GBC represenative removed from a temple in New York and are posed for a victory there.

Basically this reminds me of when everybody stated that Hare Krishna would die after Prabhupada left.

These groups are not going to go away even if they stay small.

All this is not really going to bother one to much if they are sincere about Krishna unless their money and position are involved. This is more power and control.

Hare Krishna

Your Servant

Bhakta David

And David you are right there with those who are fighting for power and control...

Gopidust


Here is the post. The IRM site is
IRM

Another devotee wished to challenge persons on that forum. I am not really not that type of person. I have no hesitance to a good debate or conversation if the issues and environment are conducive; that is what the better posts here are doing no more and no less.

As far as

Well I don't know what you are talking about but at least you spoke to me

Oh I get what you are talking about now!

gopidust,

Dear Bhakta David,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

You seem to be under a ton of misconceptions as to how the parampara works and is furthered (i.e. it is an offense to initiate when one's Guru is present, what constitutes an "order" to be Guru etc.). I would recommend that you step away from the political arguments in the regards of Parampara and simply read the writings of our Acaryas to understand the principles. When I say Acaryas I don’t just mean the writings of Bhaktivedanta Swami. What you will find there is obviously important for all Bhaktivedanta Swami followers but I would argue that without understanding many of those specific instructions and ideals within the greater context of the Gaudiya theology and history you will be left in a rather confused state.

Another thing I wanted to point out which I have encountered with most that find a leaning towards the ritvik doctrine is that if you want to apply principles to judge the current ISKCON Guru's and Guru system then you also must use those same principles to judge all that came before.

For example as was pointed out by several devotees Bhaktisiddhanta was acting as a diksa Guru in the presence of his Guru. Would you still consider such an action to be an offense?

In pointing at that Bhaktivedanta Swami gave "no direct order" for a specific disciple to be Guru. Well where was this "direct order" for Bhaktivedanta Swami to be Guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? Where was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's from Srila Gaura Kishor dasa Babaji? Most would argue that every disciple has received this order as it is the natural occurrence of parampara. Parampara is a living and breathing existence not something awarded via diploma.

You point out that Bhaktivedanta Swami didn’t appoint a specific person and indicate that the fall of so many should equate something. So again use that same principle with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Didn’t his leading men “fall” in the eyes of Bhaktivedanta Swami? Should those examples cast doubts on all those hat followed?

You point out the unfortunate instances of child abuse… well remember that abuse was rampant during Bhaktivedanta Swami’s time and he, as did many of his disciples, misunderstood how to deal with such issues (I believe everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt that this was indeed an issue with misunderstanding how to deal with such issues as opposed to simply sweeping them under the rug). The thought that such instances were simply a matter of lust was obviously false. So if you are going to use those unfortunate instances to point to the disqualification of those within ISKCON leadership positions then you must use that same principle in how you view Bhaktivedanta Swami.

A few posts back you talked of the straw arguments given by the GBC well unfortunately your thought process is filled with the inconsistent use of applying principles across the board and allowing a + b to equal d because “c” didn’t seem to work.

Finally if you are indeed bragging of your preaching on an IRM site I feel very sorry for you.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Interestingly I just heard at another website that a sex offender was brought before srila prabhupada for molesting his entire gurukula or something. Srila Prabhupada said he should be kicked out of the temple for life and not ever be allowed to do service, only to come to the temples on Sundays and appearance days. So he handled it correctly. Too bad the successors allowed the molestors to stay and do 'service' thinking them more valuable than the children they molested.

In Caitanya Caritamrta it says how once a digvijaya came and wanted Rupa goswami to sign a statement about how he was defeated by the dig vijaya, the conquerer of all directions. So Rupa Goswami said, ok, and signed it,not wanting to waste his time in useless debate.

When Jiva goswami heard this dig vijaya criticising his guru rupa goswami he himself took up the service of beating this dig vijaya in debate. But when rupa goswami heard this he said, oh so you think you are greater than your spiritual master? Then he sent jiva goswami to preach or something.

Bhakta David, wasn't ramesvara into gopibhava too? I heard the story that he said since book distribution is the highest service to Lord Caitanya then whoever does the most books becomes a gopi in Krishna lila and Srila Prabhupada said this is right?

Hari bol
Prabhu Rasaraja Dasa:

Well duh! Bhakta David, he said he was GOING TO order it! Whether he did or not is another thing, but he said for all the previous years that disciples of his would become gurus. He wanted all of them to be, and mentioned some by name as gurus like brahmananda who was not on the list.

Again, just because on his last day on earth he didn't say, on your marks get set become gurus! doesn't mean he didn t want them to be gurus. Stop listening to krishnakanta and use your own brains.

WHEN I ORDER YOU BECOME GURU

WHEN I ORDER YOU BECOME GURU

WHEN I ORDER YOU BECOME GURU

Not stay ritvik, stay ritviks, stay ritviks forever yah hah hah hah!

This is all very well and good, Bhakta David, for A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami's disciples. But most of us here are not his disciples, nor are we members of Iskcon. What makes you think it is of any real interest to us?

I wonder if you have read any of the material on this site that Madhava gave links to. Or try these articles : The Parampara Institution in Gaudiya Vaishnavism or Charismatic renewal and institutionalization in the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the Gaudiya Math which may give you an idea of our perspective on the issue.

Though the first article is somewhat dated, the conclusions still seem valid to me.

(i) Lack of confidence in the level of spiritual achievements of the leaders the 'priests' of the movement in Weber's terminology, who possess purely institutional charisma. They may well be considered inadequate even from the point of view of their priestly function, as their scholarship (which in a text-rich tradition like Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not to be underestimated in importance) is found lacking. The lack of raganuga bhakti culture in ISKCON, though certainly not an immediate problem for its younger members, is in the long run bound to create a vacuum for those who are well-read in the works of the tradition. One cannot consistently appeal to the members' commitment to evangelization without taking note of their individual spiritual appetites, whetted by the cornucopia of spiritual material lying outside the corpus bequeathed by Bhaktivedanta.

(ii) Problems arising from the emphasis in Prabhupada's writings on disciplic succession and the accent on initiation as the token of participation in that succession, contrasted with the absence of such participation in the current line. This will prove particularly important for those who develop a desire for raganuga bhakti, who will come to seek the 'special relationship' which is said to come through initiation.

(iii) If, as in the Gaudiya Math, emphasis is made on the concept of the siksa-sampradaya, those aspirants who have the courage will feel that they are free to make the individual search and will be led outward towards other sources of knowledge. The institution, seeking to protect itself by preventing such association outside the parameters it sets (i.e. extra ecclesiam nullum salus) will eventually lose credibility for such aspirants. Building walls, as in Berlin, will likely prove ineffectual and counter-productive in the long run.

Rasaraja dasa-ji beat me to an excellent post. I must echo his statements that you seem very confused on some basic issues.

A diksa-guru accepts a disciple based on the disciple's qualifications. Here's a quote from Sri Guru Tattva Vijnana (p 12-13)

Hari bol Rasaraja dasa

Hari Bol Prabhus

I am not here to distress anyone and a lot of the mundane attacks I do not wish to even attempt.

That having been said I have read Babaji's sample and I thought it quite good. I have to sign off now and I would have to say that in close the ritvik issue is not going to go away. I don't like to speculate but even if you took all the temples away from either side they will reform.

This is the stance I am taking. One must remember there are at least five ritvik groups that can't even agree. This is the texture.

I am simply attempting to raise my personal standard within the jostling which in reality there always before or this would not have happened.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta ki jaya!

Bhakta David

Dear Bhakta David,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I think you scan what others write without contemplating what is actually being said or what devotees are asking of you. That isn’t exactly a conversation. That is the reason Madhava keeps asking what your view is because you don't seem to be having a conversation with anyone; simply stating what you think in the pose of questions.

"Here you are arguing the history of the Gaudiya Vashnavism and I have already stated that without Prabhupada that the Tradition does support." what exactly does that mean?

"The point here is that do they need AUTHORIZATION FROM THEIR GURUMAHARAJ?

On my order, amara ajnaya guru hana, be actually guru. But on my order.""

Again it depends on what you consider an order. If you consider an order a specific statement in which a specific person is specifically told to be a diksa Guru then I must ask you where was this "direct order" for Bhaktivedanta Swami to be Guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? Where was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's from Srila Gaura Kishor dasa Babaji? Does such even exist? If not then why do you expect something different for the followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami? Did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta not follow this same citation from CC? Did Srila Gaura Kishora dasa Babaji forget about that one?

I would guess that you know, as well as everyone here, that such order's where never given by Srila Gaura Kishora dasa Babaji or by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. If I am indeed correct then why do these examples stand within the pretext of your questions on ISKCON?

“Hence a diksa guru is self effugelent.” So which is it exactly? A specific order or a matter of being self effulgent? Is it self effulgent to the disciple or every human, ant and bear? If it is the later then has there been an “self effulgent” Acaryas?

I think you have made it very clear that you aren’t hear seeking clarification. Everyone has stated if you are looking for answers to ISKCON or Bhaktivedanta Swami then you are at the wrong website.

You consistently make argument after argument without consideration of the context in which the quotes you throw around were spoken and without applying the principles discussed in these very quotes in a universal manner. You approach responses to your questions/thoughts without even considering what is being said.

If you really want pertinent feedback to your question you would be best served asking it at a website which is concerned with such. If you would have even spent a few minutes reading through this site you will realize that this is not a website which is focused on ACBSP teachings or his movement.

Finally don’t ask questions that you don’t want answers to. It wastes everyone time.

I wish you well and hope that you find the ability to apply logic in a consistent manner and that you truly try to understand Bhaktivedanta Swami’s instructions in the context in which they were spoken as opposed to the context in which you would prefer they were spoken. I recommend you try such elevated websites as Sataswata.net, istagosthi.org, etc for answers to your very important questions (answers).

Finally the 'ritvik' thing isn't even a thing in our lives as again and again we are not followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami. At some point I hope this computes. In ISKCON I am sure it will remain an issue for those that want it to be one. For most it isn't and never will be.

I will check myself out of this topic as I find it to be anything but enlivening.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Dharma Chakra is right. Here is the real reason you should stay away from the Ritviks:

kRSNeti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta
dIkSAsti cet praNatibhiz ca bhajantam Izam
zuzrUSayA bhajana-vijJam ananyam anya-
nindAdi-zUnya-hRdam Ipsita-saGa-labdhyA

One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy name of Lord Krishna; one should offer humble obeisances to the devotee who has undergone spiritual initiation [diksha] and is engaged in worshiping the Deity, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others. (Upadeshamrita 5)

Haribol Jagat

I believe you have the closest thing thing to the efficient solution.

One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy name of Lord Krishna; one should offer humble obeisances to the devotee who has undergone spiritual initiation [diksha] and is engaged in worshiping the Deity, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others. (Upadeshamrita 5)

I do not wish to distress or talk in cirlces but you would be lucky to find a steady madhyama adhikari. In your translation does such mention vadi bhakti?

This is the reality for almost all the diksa gurus in ISKCON. This states that the devotee will make mistakes and fall but never to the point of denying Krishna.

This is a very powerful verse and the reality is that are there any persons who fit that in ISKCON? I know that most of your are in other maths. But by reading of this text I would say I know of none. This is not to be offensive. What is when you have all these devotees running up to you speaking of said "pure devotee in undeviated devotional service" only to watch them fall.

I do not want to distress anyone but produce this pure devotee diksa guru in ISKCON. If Gopidust was into diksa in ISKCON where is she going to go?

The GBC initially proclaimed that its law book was equal to sastra. Sivarama Maharaj, a diksa guru and head of the GBC admitted that they "lied" in the First Final Siddhanta. If you are laughing so am I.

I do know that a Vaisnava Preacher must be pure or his preaching has little or no effect. Is that in any of the purports in your translation?

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

There are no guarantees, but generally speaking, the least desirable association is the Ritviks because they don't believe that good association exists. Therefore they show that they are not above faultfinding, they are unable to recognize devotees and they are not interested in finding them. Their only interest is telling why you should NOT associate with anyone.

Iskcon is better than Ritviks, but they are still more interested in possessing you as property, and protecting you from other Vaishnavas who might "steal" you away.

The Gaudiya Math is better, basically because generally they know more Harikatha, more siddhanta, and have deeper roots in the tradition. Within the Gaudiya Math, some are better than others.

Outside the Gaudiya Math there are a great variety of Vaishnavas who cannot be characterized as a single entity. You will find good and bad. But the best are better than any of the above.

Haribol Prabhu
Rasraja dasa

Haribol Prabhus

DharmaChakra

Hari bol
Prabhu Braja

Hari Bol prabhu

Braja

Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor.(Adi 1) Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. He accepted his guru, Narottama dasa Thakura. (Lec 4/17/76) (*Note: 100 years between Narottama dasa Thakura and Srila Visvanatha Cakravati)

...


SP: Try to understand. Don't go speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

Dear Bhakta David,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

You seriously need to STOP TYPING and start reading some damn books! Seriously I beg you for the sake of your own spiritual life to simply stop worrying about what you perceive to be Gaudiya siddhanta and go back to square one and learn the basic tenets of Parampara, Vaisnava etiquette, Vaisnava seva, aparadha, etc.

You need to be deprogrammed from all the damn propaganda you are spouting and begin to study the basics with the help of a senior Vaisnava and I guarantee you that you will one day realize how absolutely irrelevant and mind numbing this garbage you are spouting is.

I don't blame you for being so filled with this garbage as it is what was given to you by other well intentioned aspiring Vaisnavas but at the same time your lack of understanding on the basic tenets of what you are attempting to "preach" here is stunning. ISKCON has made its own bed and will have to live with such accusations, lack of faith, etc. but we here at Gaudiya Discussions do not. Please either cease from talking about such nonsense or bring it somewhere that it can be appreciated.

I don’t want you to take this personally but you seriously need to stop this. As a token of my sincere hope that you are helped through this muck and given an opportunity to understand Gaudiya Vaisnavism for what it really is I will personally pay for some books recommended by Jagat, Madhava and Braja which may help you get a real picture of that which you are aspiring for.

Send me your address and I will have these books delivered to you. Good luck!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Hari Bol

Rasaraja dasa

What you say is true a RITVIK ISKCON is probably not going to run much different than ISKCON. This is my main concern. This is honesty and Vaisnava ettiquette. This whole issue could be a red herring distraction. If the current management does not clean things up ISKCON which as BBTI (the book trust) and Jaga are in Chapter 11 and if the W. Turley has his way, this is strictly speculation, such could be in big trouble.

From what I know ISKCON Bangalore is runnng on Ritvik and it is the largest or near largest temple in the world.

Just out curiosity can you find this verse or Madhava. This is Mahaprabhu. Everybody uses it but I dont have my Caritamrta handy to view it in context.

amara ajnaya guru hana

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari bol

Rasarajadasa

Thank you for your book offer.

If you have time to elaborate please do so:

And far as the madness that has haunted the Krsna consciousness movement, especially in the West, yes, it is troubling to try to explain it to newcomers, or indeed, for any gentle Vaisnava to contemplate. However a rush to judgement isn't the answer: there is no monopoly on imperfection and abuse. Material desire and ignorance haunt us all, regardless of affiliation, and seeing that, it behooves us to seek shelter of those who are free from those propensities and to engage in the processes given by the Gaudiya acaryas for overcoming them. A ritvik ISKCON won't be all that much different from any other ISKCON. It is svarupa siddhi bhakti that we need, not some new formula for guruhood and management.


Your servant and thank you.

Bhakta David

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I heard Scientology is HUGE in California! Maybe give that one a try.. at least it is a bit safer than the whole ritvik concept!

On a serious note once I have some reading recomendations from the Moderators I will get your books ordered and mailed. Please consider my plea that you stop this talk at GD and, most importantly, in all aspects of your life...

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Hari bol

If you are looking for an order that said parties are using it is here by Mahaprabhu:

The actual verse is as follows:

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

TRANSLATION

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land." (C:C, Madhya, 7:128)

Hare Krsihna

Bhakta Ki Jaya!

Bhakta David

Dear Rasaraj-ji,

You should have been more cautious with offers like the one you made to David. It may tempt others to start talking rtvik so that you donate some nice GV books to them, too, just to make them shut up.

Prabhupada did not say to never apply raganugic teachings in our lives. He told a group of disciples known as the gopi bhava club that first they should deserve, then desire.

Jagat consistently states that Prabhupada's teachings don't coincide with raganuga, but when we reach the stage of raganuga automatically we will be there and we will be able to read all the books of the exalted teachings about the gopis, manjaris, etc.

This will occur naturally. Prabhupada also had several disciples who were recognised as going back to Godhead among them Gour Govinda Swami, Sridhar Swami, TKG, and many other non-guru men and women disciples.

[ snip. - mod ]

I am still missing the point. What is the point of this discussion? David, what is the point? I cannot seem to recognize any coherent strain of thought here. Do you wish to present us with something, or do you wish to ask us a question? Or are you here just to organize your scattered thoughts, putting them in writing?

It's true, Prabhupada said not to criticise devotees who have fallen down because it will make it impossible for them to come back. So why did I knowingly criticise a fallen sannyasi? Just to see what David was thinking at the time. Sorry.

Yes those ritviks do have a long list of devotees they find fault with and admit it. They seem to think that noone can ever become a pure devotee in this lifetime.
Sorry for the "guru aparadha".

Incidentally, Ramesvara admitted falling from sannyasa because of this girl, so should we accept this as his divine lila or just take it at face value. I don't just want to take it at face value necessarily because if he is an uttama-adhikari and this is just his divine lila then I will be committing an aparadha. I heard he actually left to make millions selling real estate to give to the BBT and now he has at least one million.

I agree. We will begin to pay more careful attention to such statements. To begin with, they are absolutely of no concern to the audience and belong to other istagosthi(org)s, that is, if they should be anywhere.

Please use the "Report" feature whenever you locate objectionable content.

I would like to report Jagat for blaspheming Prabhupada and Iskcon but if I hit the button I would only be reporting him to himself and Madhava and what's the use?

We have five moderators here. Feel free to contact any one of them.

However, please note that "blasphemy" would be caused by spreading gossip with either blatant disregard for the truth or with malicious intent. You cannot file a report about blasphemy just because you do not agree with someone's assessment of the situation.

= = =

This ISKCON gossip should stop. It has no place in here. Stick to the topic, do not relish some petty gossip, or even factual stories of falldowns if they are not relevant to the topic at hand. Sometimes we talk of them just for the sake of relishing them. How perverted a taste do we sometimes have.

I personally think that we should have killed this thread at the very beginning. I personally have no opinion on what Srila Prabhupada wanted for Iskcon after his death. And, even though we have this forum on Iskcon topics, this issue is really outside the interets sof the core group at Gaudiya Discussions.

I know the following:

• If you want to advance in Krishna consciousness, you need advanced association.
• Go out and find advanced association. If you can't find a super-mega-ultra-pure-perfect-great-wonderful mahabhagavata, find the next best thing--a humble devotee who wants to talk about Krishna.
• Get initiated in a disciplic succession. If your faith is in Prabhupada, then get initiated by one of his disciples and follow the process he taught. If your faith is in Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, get initiated by one of his disciples or grand-disciples and follow the process he taught. If you want the kind of disciplic connection through a "body-parampara" to one of Mahaprabhu's associates, then get initiated by someone in one of these lines.
• If you can't find a super-mega-ultra-pure-perfect-great-wonderful mahabhagavata to initiate you, find the next best thing--someone who has dedicated his life to understanding and serving Krishna and who identifies himself solidly as Krishna Das. The important thing is to get connected.
• Then continue to associate with those who share your goals, who are friendly and who are more advanced than you, even if just a little bit.
• If you can't find association that fits the above criteria, then do the best you can--read, study, chant, meditate.
• Keep the hell out of institutional politics. If you are named acharya of an institution, you probably won't be able to avoid it. If you are not acharya, then concentrate on your own bhajan. If you are a natural devotee, you will hear and chant about Krishna in the company of like-minded devotees. This will evolve into preaching as you advance and become worthy. Then you may be picked by Krishna to act as guru. In the meantime, mind your own business.

I am on the verge of pressing the button on this thread. Anyone got a good reason to continue it? Make yourself heard before 12 noon EST.

Gopidust,

Also, Jagat once wrote a poem on Bhagavad-gita which was very much appreciated by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was pleased with the level of bhakti he found in that poem and he recommended that it should be printed on Back to Godhead magazine. This happened before you were born. Iskcon history too is a good subject for you to study.

At the risk of looking self-absorbed or engaging in overkill, I am responding to this complaint here.

Dear Jagat,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I believe that the thread should be closed down. It would be one thing if the ritvik subject were being approached from a theological standpoint but obviously this isn't the case here. As all ISKCON ritvik discussions must it has turned itself into a "look how much I can quote without relevance to context" and I believe that most here find such exercises futile. Again I don't question Bhakta David's sincerity but his knowledge of even the basics is so far off base even for the newest ISKCON/Ritvik follower.

I would like to see you suggest a few books that you feel would best give Bhakta David some perspective in his personal journey. Personally a few books come to my mind such as The Heart of Krishna (the dangers of aparadha) and Sri Guru Tattva Vijnana (Guru and disciple). I also think we can send along some printed versions of your article which look at ISKCON parampara from a “outsider” perspective. Any thoughts?

Of course all is naught if Bhakta David doesn’t read the books but I really do feel sorry for him as he seems very confused over some of the most basic and essential aspects of Gaudiya siddhanta.

In regards to offenses perceived by Gopidust it really is a matter of perspective. I have found that you have maintained a very respectful and loving relationship with Bhaktivedanta Swami although you have gone a different way. I would even go so far as to say that of all those in the “anti party” (hehehe) you have the most balance, heartfelt respect and balanced perspective!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Hari Bol

DharmaCharkra
has posted:

1. Read my first or second posting. You will see that if your diksa-guru passes before you can obtain siksa, then you may take another siksa-guru. Its rather overtly implied that your diksa-guru is living at the time of giving you diksa.

2. If Babaji passes before giving me diksa, then I will not be getting diksa initiation from him. If I get diksa, but not complete siksa before he passes, then I need to find another siksa-guru. Again, read my initial posts. Diksa is getting the mantra, siksa is instruction on the use of mantra. Ergo, I can't get siksa without diksa.

3. There is a world of difference between what Madhavaji has stated and the ritvk process you are putting forth.

I really don't understand your last line. Am I 'still recieving' diksa? Diksa is the process of initiation and giving of the mantra... its an event. See item 1 above.

Speaking on Guru tattva:

On number one you are using the main definition and there is more than one definition. You may have a siksa guru and diksa guru. If you are initiated in diksa and can never see gurudev as he may be on the other side of the world you may approach a senior devotee for instruction. This should be done with permission from all sides from what I understand. In ISKCON diksa happens only once. Once you have such and it is good that is all that is needed. If you believe that your svarupa siddhi bhakti is enhanced from another guru than your old guru should release you if the new one accepts. In ISKCON he will not re-inititiate.

Reread Satsvarupa on the first page. He is alive and has released and encouraged his disciples to seek Siksa from another guru if they accept. He has done this before because of lack of contact with another devotee.

The position on number two is close. What in reference to the manner in you recieve knowledge would you call such prior to diksa? Hence if you were working towards your harinam initiation?

On number three Babaji Madhava has states that a disciple can officiate for him if he is not there. No problem. In ISKCON this is Ritvik initiation. They had been doing it for years and this not part of the problem. Can a ritvik initiate for a passed diksa or does one need a living guru? This is the problem.

This is a function of Guru tattva. In ISKCON you may have a harinam guru and an diksa or second initiation guru. This usually does not happen but is legitimate. One may be progressing and take the harinam initiation without knowing who is going to be one's diksa and take diksa later from his main guru.

There are also other types of gurus a vartma guru is also an instructional guru and all ISKCON devotees should aspire to help this mission and it is not a diksa guru.

In the discussion of Guru Tattva there is more than this.

Your servant

Bhakta David

Davidji,

You are making the question very complicated. It is not so complex. Look at the list of instructions I gave above. You don't need a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious guru to advance in spiritual life. You just need to connect to the source and honor the parampara, that's all.

It is nice to have a senior Vaishnava in whom you have faith as your guru, but if you have faith in the process, then you should surely be able to find someone you respect sufficiently to take initiation from.

But remember: we here have little or no investment in Iskcon as an institution. So what good advice will you get from us?

Jagat

Haribol Prabhu Jagat,

I simply responding to the site and the strings. I realize that you are connected to your Babaji. I am not a troll and I do have a strong interest in vaisnavic unity.

I am curious about the positions that the different authorised positions have. In this regards their parameters define the domain of what spiritual precepts the disciples are to follow and their respect for the other positions.

I believe the Guru Tattva issue is the most important Gaudiya Vashnavic question of the modern era. There must be a better way to deal with such than the present state of affairs in the Vaishnavic traditions.

Just in interest most devotees here have an interest on the old masters and this was from Tripuari whom I do not follow per se but will call Maharaj and respect his positions. When I concur with a posiition that is authorised and true it must be a correct descending movement from Krishna, I doubt if it is an upward jnana marga.

He is stating that there are a plurality of gurus mostly at the siksa level which can diverge on lower issues as management. He argues that siksa like you said follows divya janana or diksa. He sites such from Jiva Goswami.

Q. Could you elaborate on the three classes of siddhas you mentioned who are qualified to serve in the capacity of guru, 'bhagavat prasad deha prapt,' 'nirdhuta kasaya' and 'murcchita kasaya'?

A. Jiva Goswami has described these three maha bhagavatas in his Bhakti-sandarbha.


Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari bol

Madhava

It is 12 o'clock.

Since this thread has taken a turn away from the specifics of Iskcon and the Ritvik situation, I have decided to let it live!

Don't I feel powerful, and merciful, too.

Hari Bol

Prabhus

Hari bol

Madhava

One more thing (sorry to dwell on ISKCON katha Jagat)...

Along the lines of what Braja wrote a few pages ago (but it was still today 9/9/04)...

Prabhupada started ISKCON = The International Society for Krishna Consciousness

He didn't start ISPCON = The International Society for Prabhupada Consciousness

Something to think about.

Hari Bol

I have just visited Saraswata.net and see now how you are actually against the gaudiya matha and iskcon. I am fed up with this. Some of the devotees here were nice but I don't care what kind of material scholarship others may have it does not impress me. Licking the outside of a bottle of honey cannot give you the taste of what's inside. If this does not apply to you then don't worry about it. Those of you who it does apply to will not change anyway.

Madhava

Madhava

Would manjari bhava be any closer?

YS

Bhakta David

Good for you, gopidust. KB has been waiting for someone like you since Hot Samosa stopped coming around. Go to saraswata.net; that will keep you in the fire of raganuga bhakti.

The trouble with being 18 (I can't believe I am saying this; I must be getting old!) is that you don't even know what "experience" means.

This is what I tell devotees of my generation--we didn't know anything. How do you expect to make an informed choice about guru when you're just an ignorant child! It's all predisposition, aesthetics and emotions. Something ineffable and hardly intellectual at all.

When I walked into a temple for the first time and saw Krishna smiling at me with a flute in his hand, I just went, "Yeah!" When I saw the picture of the Supersoul on the cover of Bhagavatam 2.3 and Shukadeva speaking to Parikshit, these just set off bells ringing. I went, "Yes, this is my path."

And then one starts getting knowledge, information--about bhajan, about human nature, about history, about other cultures and religions--and one has to start asking questions, again and again, putting one's faith into doubt, praying and chanting, finding the path of grace and gratitude again, and along with them, new rays of understanding. And that's how we grow spiritually.

Guru comes again and again, folks. It's not a one-off thing that is finished with initiation or with reading a book. It's an ongoing process that is nourished from within by antaryami and from without by the teachers we encounter in life. Sometimes we look for a teacher and don't find her, and sometimes we think we weren't looking at all, and POW! Epiphany!

One of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's best lines: "You can become guru when you see Guru everywhere." Think about that for a few seconds, it's actually a very deep line. The kanishtha adhikari sees guru as one person, like the Ritviks and the "only Prabhupada" crowd. As long as Prabhupada is the only guru, these people are simply bureaucrats, place-holders, not real gurus. That's OK, every institution needs bums on the vyasasans, but this is why Saraswati Thakur's insight about institutions was so brilliant. See it, it's quoted all over the place--"Church means the death of a living religion."

People are so busy preserving Iskcon... Of course that's good. I am not condemning it. People serve the institution and make spiritual advancement. But the process is one that is fraught with sclerosis, with ossification. These are not new insights, but ones that every religion has to learn again and again.

Anyway, Gopidust, David! Time to read up!

Did ananta das baba or did he not say that Prabhupada cannot give us raganuga/bhakti?

If he did say we cannot get Krishna consciousness by following the Gaudiya Matha lineage why don't you admit it?

If the moderators all follow ananta das just say so.

We follow Madvacarya but his mission was to bring a certain section of society back to Krishna consciousness by preaching according to time place and circumstances so some things he said may appear to be externally a little different from what lord caitanya may have preached,etc.

I did glorify Jagat once at least but I really don't like all his translations but at least it's something so Jaya jagat thanks for trying to translate something, it is better than nothing.

And Ramesvara is good at least he did a lot of service when Prabhupada was here for maybe ten years or so. I'm sure when he said he was an uttama-adhikari he wasn't trying to cheat the devotees for his own mundane name and fame, he was mistakenly trying to serve Srila Prabhupada to the best of his bewildered capability.Even a new devotee knows better than to say they are uttama-adhikaris.
Ramesvara ki jaya!

The view of raganuga bhakti in the Gaudiya Math and in the traditional sampradayas is not the same. Therefore, the GM generally calls people who follow the traditional practices of raganuga bhakti "Sahajiyas."

On the other hand, most people in the traditional lines think that without receiving confirmation of your spiritual identity through the guru you cannot practice raganuga bhakti.

So it depends how you define raganuga bhakti.

And thank you for your generous approval of my humble efforts.

Hey gopidust,

Why don't you go move into some iskcon farm where they worship these aparadhi acaryas like ramesvara and others. and just forget about another line of Bhakti.

Your young mind cannot handle all these conflicting concepts it seems. maybe just some simple iskcon approved service of standing in a K-Mart parking all day with a picture of Ramesvara in a mala around your neck to ward off evil would best suit your mood.

by distributing books in such a parking lot, hammering them into the people´s bags,
you can achieve gopi-bhava.

that´s what i was told, the highest service....

sorry, I am just a crazy bum singing in the gutter.

I don't even know what's going on in the thread. I just liked what Madhava said, even though that's probably NOT what he meant.

Don't pay any attention to me.

(And remember Kishalaya, it wasn't my idea to stick my nose into this philosopher's paradise. Please go on having your fun and do not pay any attention to me!)

Satyabhama,

That was probably not the ONLY thing Madhava meant.

But, whatever gave you the idea that this is a philosopher's paradise?

Yes we can become Krishna conscious, which by the way means favorably, by following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and surrendering and selling books. Prabhupada used the term Krishna conscious because it was more specific than god conscious.

No he didn't recommend the method of your guru telling you or asking you what kind of gopi you want to be and then having you meditate on that. So if a baba cannot understand that there are other ways of becoming krishna conscious then they must be rejecting either Lord Caitanya or at least the goswamis.

In Caitanya-Caritamrta it says that whoever doesn't accept Lord Caitanya in Kali yuga will not take another human birth for thousands of kalpas, what to speak of going back to Godhead after this lifetime, even if they are socalled brahmanas.

If Prabhupada hadn't of adapted Krishna Consciousness for the Westerners none of you would be here. How grateful you all are.

My understanding is that the book distributor is forced to advance more and depend upon Krishna more and just everything is better. Of course he must also read the books himself.

As for Lila-smaranam, there is a devotee with that name so I think the concept must also be there in Iskcon. Just because it isn't being performed in the exact same way as in the tradition you accept doesn't mean raganuga isn't being performed in Iskcon.

When we reach the advanced stages of Krishna Consciousness then we will be practicing raganuga bhakti. And when the raganuga disciple becomes advanced he will be practicing Krishna Consciousness.

Considering the overarching mood in ISKCON of dependence on guru(s) and sastra, avoidance of speculation, etc., I find it a really strange argument that a person will advance and then somehow engage in raganuga bhakti. Does this attitude really boil down to, "When you advance, you'll leave ISKCON and seek shelter of rasika bhaktas" or how will this practically AND magically happen? It flies in the face of the fact that the Gaudiya acaryas have spelt out the process of raganuga, defined it as practice, etc.

mahAjanera yei patha, tAte habe anurata
pUrbApara kariyA bicAra
sAdhana-smaraNa-lIlA, ihAte na kara helA
kAya mane kariyA susAra

"I will remain dedicated to the path outlined by the mahAjanas, the great authorities, distinguishing between the former and the later. Do not neglect the practise of smaraNa and make this the perfection of your body and mind."

Narottama Das Thakura, Prema Bhakti Candrika (trans. Advaita Das)

Then again, perhaps the opposition can be seen as a test?

Gopi dust, as Madhava and others here aren't interested in purporting their ways as superiors to Iskcon's, why the bee... halava? Not that you have to agree with what is presented here but for your own understanding in presenting Prabhupada's ideas that are endeared to you, understanding clearly what are other ideas is important. Not this simple rejection because its not of your lineage and tossing some mud. Having a clear discussion of points is what is asked of here and something all of us on our own levels of understanding are asked to participate in.

People here (and I am a newcomer in reading things around here) have shown much leniency in their communications and gentleness, and something that I have not always seen that you have reciprocated. But too, it would be a great understatement to say that many... all of us are not inspired by your own striving for Krishna bhakti.

I asked Jagat at the "east coast conference" that viashnavas always seem to fighting over devotional points, a relentless tit for tat. I asked it from the viewpoint as if maybe somehow it was dysfunctional. He said, "I wouldn't have it any other way." So we have this tradition of being vaisnavas and we argue intensely over the siddhanta and yet its important we keep a respect, a love for those we debate. This is who we are as vaisnavas.

ys, babu

Haribo Prabhus

This is by Swami Narasingha:

The test of a genuine disciple lies in how well he has understood the purpose of the spiritual master. It is surprising, even alarming, that some devotees ignore that the goal of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to become a rupanuga. This is confirmed in the Bhaktivedanta purport to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, 19.132) as follows:

"That was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's opinion, and he specifically told his disciples to write books. He actually preferred to publish books rather than establish temples. Temple construction is meant for the general populace and neophyte devotees, but the business of advanced and empowered devotees is to write books, publish them and distribute them widely. According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, distributing literature is like playing on a great mrdanga. Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami, one can become a 'rupanuga' devotee."

This is interesting for those Swamiji inclined and others.

Your Servant

Bhakta David

(here begins the usual irrelevant interjection of Satyabhama)

Haribol Prabhu

Satyabhama

I am inclined to agree with Swami Narasingha here. I am not an advanced devotee and could help build a temple. There is plenty of free manpower. Writing and translating empowered sastra is far greater.

Don't get me wrong I dont believe that Swami is saying that being fixed in aracana is wrong, I believe he is generalizing.


Hare Krishna,

Bhakta David

Ya, I'm glad there are some really great devotees who can do that!

Why try to distribute books? Write a best-seller and the distribution takes care of itself.

Hari Bol Babu

Why does Madhava act like he doesn't even know the basic tenets of Krishna Consciousness?

No when an Iskcon devotee reaches raganuga he won't go off and find a bogus babaji with long hair and a beard and ask this neophyte what his eternal position is. He will already know and internally he will be serving Radha,Krishna and the gopis by whatever external service he is doing, along with Lord Caitanya and His associates.

You seem to feel that Bhaktivinode Thakura ended Raganuga and changed it to Sadhana Bhakti based not on Rupa Goswami's Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu but on mental speculation. Well both processes are mentioned there and Bhaktivinode Thakura rejected raganuga bhakti because it is next to impossible to find a bonafide guru in that line.

"What does bona-fide mean?" Madhava always asks. It means a guru who actually knows what you look like as a gopi, not just one who guesses and if he guesses wrong with what you want he changes it and says, "ok that must be it, you are a twelve year old girl with little breasts and a mustache" or whatever.

Hari Bol Prabhus

What does Babaji teach per:

"That was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's opinion, and he specifically told his disciples to write books. He actually preferred to publish books rather than establish temples. Temple construction is meant for the general populace and neophyte devotees, but the business of advanced and empowered devotees is to write books, publish them and distribute them widely. According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, distributing literature is like playing on a great mrdanga. Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami, one can become a 'rupanuga' devotee."

What is greater in the Sankirtan Mission?

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Of course he would. That's what babas do.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

We are actually working on a project for both newcomers and aspiring Vaisnavas which will introduce them to Gaudiya theology and practice outside of the ISKCON/GM sphere. If you think of anything that would benefit such a package please let us know.

I am opening a thread to discuss such a practice:

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.ph...wtopic=2170&hl=

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Also, even though you may not realize it, you simply ridicule your beloved Iskcon and Prabhupada with your posts lacking any shastric knowledge, experience or maturity. I wonder what your fellow Iskcon members would think of you entertaining yourself here. Two very simple points:

1. People on this forum are not in need of you teaching them.
2. You are apparently unwilling to learn anything here (because you already know everything being a member of Iskcon where everything is there, and reading(?) the books of Prabhupad containing everything).

Considering these two points I agree with those devotees who suggested that in the future you may spare us from your Nectar of Instructions.

I will tell you why I am critical in here. One reason is the concept of illicit sex in Vrndanvana. There is no such thing. Sex life is immaterial there. The pleasure derived from serving Radha and Krishna is so great their are no erotic fantasies.

The other is the blaspheming of the Gaudiya Sampradaya. If you don't want to follow it that is 100% fine with me, but why are YOU CRITICISING IT?

I still am looking for sastric references about how it is bona-fide for a neophyte devotee to get a feeling for their rasa if they aren't strong in Krishna Consciousness.

And I would always be interested in books exclusively or in part dedicated to describing manjari rasa.

My experience on various websites is I can say the most foul things and nobody really seems to mind because it is mostly men on line and they are attached to women and there "haven't been any women there since hot samosa". But if you want to kick me out feel free to do so. I will get my manjari books sooner or later whenever I go to Vrndavana.

Thanks for all your help sorry you feel the need to blaspheme the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

your humble servant,
gopidust

And I read Saranagati by Thakur Bhaktivinode.

And I heard in an Iskcon class that Bhaktivinode Thakura originally had some sort of family guru, being born in a brahmana family,and the guru was a RAGANUGA GURU! Well he later rejected such a guru in favor of Jagannatha dasa babaji. So I am not just speculating.

Have to go but one final thought, unless we are completely pure we cannot talk about Srimati Radharani. We are guilty of enjoying the false Radha if we are not pure. We want to ENJOY HER, not serve her and worship her. And that is the problem.

Or is that part of your bonafide sampradayas?

Hey dusty..

Oh boy she reads one book by Bhaktivinode... ha ha Bet you couldn't even finish it.!
I think your an arrogant little brat, who doesn't know much about anything, and you make yourself look like an idiot over and over.

We see your idiotic questions you post to other forums...like.." I been following the 4 regs since Janmastami, is it ok to worship Radha?" That question right there shows you are not dealing with a full deck.

Smart enough to lead some of us...

Definitely there are many ways to look at Guru-Kripa, it is just a matter of what and how one’s looking for it in the ocean of Krishna’s Kripa.

Most of the devotees here started their KC long ago and things were always told as ACBS implanted in the West. Now, many years later here we are questioning what he did. He did, and that is all, nothing can be changed. Did he help many of us, yes. Did he adapted the ways of practicing KC, yes he did, so what? Perhaps is just time to realize that he did what was available and practical with the best of his initiation; a Sadhu in the NY City dealing with hippie and drunker, trying to spread the soft butter of KC on their heart. Whose minds were tired of the brainwashing system of the America in the 60’s and fighting for peace.

What else could be done, but to cordially manage how to baby-sitter the newborn generation?

Thank you Swamiji.

That is all, the night is over, Jivi Jago, Goura Candra Bole!

Raise your hands, everyone who can make some sense out of this thread.

Also, if you want to build a temple, instead go for rejuvenating an older, forgotten one!

Haribol Prabus

This is why I don't feel that the "temple" thing is service (for me). It's for my pleasure alone that I would like to sponsor an old temple. Maybe when we retire and we have some extra savings, and money coming in from investments. *If* everything goes well. Then I can indulge in housekeeping for Krishna. Until then, yes, community service projects rock, babu. And we can always go to existing temples and help out when we have free time. If you dig that kind of thing, that is.

Babu you are off. Even materially if you serve alcohol you get the karma and a brahmana can only counteract this by drinking boiling ghee until he dies. So you should give up this job immediately and work at a juice bar where you can make offerings in the morning to Krishna and serve prasadam throughout the day.

Similarly prasadam should be given in charity, not bhoga. If you want to feed the hungry do it in a Krishna Conscious way. Food for Life, or whatever else might be there.

Baby you asked so I am just telling you. Serving alcohol is tama-guna. Unless you are directly preaching about Krishna 99% of the time most of your preaching is not very good. It will not make these alcohol drinkers devotees. How many devotees have you made in the bar so far? Do you even mention the word "Krishna"? Just asking.

"How much good will your twenty minutes of preaching do? But if you sell them one book it may change their lives.".SP

Gopidust,

It is true that serving alcohol is not a brahminical occupation. The concept that Srila Prabhupada tried to establish, which is the essence of Krsna Consciousness, is that if one dovetails all one's thoughts and activities to Krsna, this process will gradually render one Krsna conscious. Srila Prabhupada gave the example that if a man addicted to drinking wine, every time he takes a sip thinks that “Krsna is the taste of this wine”, then this mentality will gradually elevate the wine lover to Krsna consciousness, which is a consciousness beyond even brahminical consciousness. Similarly with sexual activities, which are in fact the most difficult to abandon, if one thinks that “my relationship with my partner/spouse should be offered to Krsna”, then this consciousness gradually liberates one from mundane lust. The trouble with you fanatics in Iskcon is that you do not understand that Srila Prabhupada recommended a process of gradual purification through individual commitment to transformation of consciousness. Mechanical following of rules that will be rewarded over time is a ludicrous notion and one that has come to be a disgrace to iskcon itself. Granted, one can become conscious of Krsna independently of any one practice, for bhakti is independent, but if there is a process to be followed, it is the transformation of the consciousness from mundane to transcendental through action. Thus Babu’s activities are, in some good degree, pure activities even as he serves alcohol to drinkers - because he has some desire to know Krsna and to make Him a nice offering, his activities are "pure" to that extent. Babu may gradually come to be more selective of the ingredients of his offerings but these will always remain assistants to the main ingredient which is love, dedication to Krsna.

Gopidust and Anand... a kind, understanding tone in disagreements is much more likely to convince.

Satyabhama,

When did you get elected?

Geez, I was so busy trying to defeat Bush I did not realized you are our new moderator.

BTW, My family and I, we have decided, if Mr. Bush gets re-elected we will all become Canadians.

anandji,
when he becomes more selective in the ingredients of his "offerings" I hope bapu remembers that krishna does not accept cheap wines, only the good ones.
Krishna says,"I am the taste of champagne, rotten and fermented."

Yes a wino can generally become Krishna conscious eventually by thinking of Krishna for many many lifetimes. But why not take the usual way?

Thanks for the link Satyabhama, but I have seen it all, trust me, I do NOT want to move to Canada. The cold weather does not suit me wardrobe. BTW, whatever gave you the idea I am trying to convince anyone of anything?

I liked Howard Dean, how about you Anand? Kinda miss "the doctor." Kerry is kind of... well...

Satyabhama,

I don't like any of them, really. But I must admit I almost sought citizenship this time just so to vote against the current president of this country. He is a really bad president. So as a principle, there is no good politician, they are all agents of Machiavel. The best that can be done is to remove a thorn with a thorn. Kinda of like the process of Krsna Consciousness.

Agreed.

If Poppins gets it right, then I suppose it's ok to quote her.

She did have a cool talking parrot umbrella. That's gotta count for something.

Er...

How about we call it a day with this thread?

[ Satyabhama, this thread is perhaps not the best place for such good things to post. I'm starting a new thread with your latest. ]

Sridhara & Ritvik et al.
Hari bol Prabhus

Forgive me if these questions are a bore to one, but I do not know so therefore I enquire.

1. Did not Sridhara appoint Bon Maharaj to be the ritvik?

2. Does the GM still exist and/or what is Chaitanya Math, Pure Bhakt. com and so forth?

3. Did Sridhara or GM authorise all these other maths?

4. According to Tripurari he did for him.

Any other information that would help myself and others on a continuum would be appreciated.

Your servant,

Bhakta David

http://saraswata.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5784#5784

as best I can say..
1. Srila Sridhar Maharaja had several rtviks of him which included Sudhir Maharaja, Akshayananda Swami, Ashram Maharaja and maybe a couple more including Janardana Maharaja.
In the end withdrew their authority and invested all of his authority into Srila Govinda Maharaja exclusively as his rtvik.

2.Yes, there are still branches of the Gaudiya Math as well as other Maths that were established by some of his leading disciples which included Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Keshava Maharaja etc.

3.Purebhakti.com is a part of the following of Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Keshava Maharaja. He is a leader of a couple of Maths that were established by Keshava Maharaja, his spiritual master.

These other Maths that are not "Gaudiya Matha" were established by the leading disciples of Srila Saraswati Goswami after the break-up of the Gaudiya Math members. They were "authorized" by the leading disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, as they were the acharyas who established these Maths.

4. Tripurari Maharaja started his own mission on his own authority. Srila Sridhar Maharaja did not explicitly instruct Tripurari Maharaja to start his own mission, as he was more pleased that his followers would cooperate with Govinda Maharaja - his leading disciple.
In the end, Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that he was withdrawing all his sanction and approval of anything and anyone that was not dedicated to following his chief disciple Govinda Maharaja as his sole successor to his Math and mission.

So, at one point, he encouraged Tripurari Maharaja to do his own mission, but in the end he withdrew his support for that.
_________________
Jai Sri-Sri Nitai-Gaurahari

I don't know why you want to bring up all these things on this message board - especially since you have been told repeatedly that most members here are not affiliated with any of the branches or sub-branches of the Gaudiya missions coming down through Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

I am a disciple of Swami B.V. Tripurari and since you are posting things spoken by Ksambuddhi which are not correct I will at least respond to give you a proper answer.

Tripurari Swami is a diksha disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is associated with Sridhara Maharaja as a siksha disciple. At his matha both of these acharyas are on the altar. Sridhara Maharaja told my Guru Maharaja to start a mission and do something in service to his Guru Maharaja and that he would be there in the background helping him. This arrangement never changed. When Sridhara Maharaja appointed Govinda Maharaja as the successor acharya of his Matha he did not withdraw his backing from those who he gave his shelter to. This is a misconception. What he said was for those who don't honor his decision they must leave the matha and they do not have his support. He did not expect those who were already acting independently to stop doing so.

Sridhara Maharaja was an advocate of 'free flow of faith' and that faith cannot be 'legislated'. Now ask yourself this - would such a person all of a sudden try to legislate and dictate that everyone must surrender to Govinda Maharaja? What he said in actuality was that for those who have faith in him they should also have full faith in Govinda Maharaja as he himself did. This did not mean that all of a sudden all those who had seperate missions must dissolve them and lay them at Govinda Maharaja's feet. This is simply sectarian politics. He also said that those that didn't share his faith should leave his mission and that they did not have his backing. This was clearly a talk given to those who considered themselves members of his mission, not for anyone else.

As for Bon Maharaja - he is a god brother to Sridhara Maharaja and A.C. Bhaktivedanta. He had his own matha and represented his Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to the best of his ability.

I think you should try to follow the sage advice that Jagat so graciously gave to you. Find a sadhu that inspires you and that you have faith in and try to learn under his/her care and guidance.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

I'd like to add one point to Audarya-lila's post clarifying Tripurari Maharaja's position with regard to Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Govinda Maharaja. In my experience, Tripurari Maharaja--or Narasingha Maharaja, Paramadvaiti Maharaja, or any others--have said anything derogatory about Govinda Maharaja or questioned Sridhar Maharaja's faith in him. Everyone freely acknowledges that Sridhar Maharaja designated Govinda Maharaja as his successor to lead Sri Chaitanya Sarasvat Math and its branches, and they relate to him accordingly. Those who saw themselves as members of the math naturally accept Govinda Maharaja as a siksa guru.

Forgive me, you well-wishers of Tripurari Maharaj, for not having responded to this post myself.

It seems that there is a negative campaign about almost everyone, especially those who have accomplished a little, anything at all. Tripurari Maharaj has been a pure devotee ever since he came to Iskcon. He just gets MORE Krishna conscious.

As a matter of fact, may I suggest that you take initiation from Tripurari Maharaj?

Do you know the story of Gadadhar Pandit? There was a brahmin named Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who happened to come from the same area in East Bengal, Chattagram, that he did. When Pundarika came to Nabadwip, everyone told Gadadhar what a great Vaishnava he was, so Gadadhar went with Mukunda to see him. Gadadhar could not believe it--Pundarika was obviously a rich man and he wore fine clothes--even smoked a hookah! So whatever faith Gadadhar had before meeting him left as soon as he saw him.

Mukunda, however, recited a verse from the Bhagavatam describing Krishna's qualities--

aho bakIyaM stana-kAla-kUTaM
jighAMsayApAyayad apy asAdhvI
lebhe gatiM dhAtry-ucitaM tato’nyaM
kaM vA dayAluM zaraNaM vrajema

How truly amazing! The sister of Bakasura, the evil Putana, was sent on a mission to kill Krishna; but Krishna drank the kalakuta poison that was mixed with her breast milk, and then awarded her the position of a wet nurse (as Ambika Kilimba in Goloka), in spite of her evil intentions. Is anyone a more merciful shelter than he? (SB 3.2.23)

Pundarik started to tremble and shed tears with ecstasy on hearing these words. "Go on, go on!" he shouted at Gadadhar, absorbed in joy at being reminded of Krishna's merciful nature.

Now Gadadhar was speechless. He thought, "I disrespected this great soul. What mishap will befall me now?" He then embraced Mukunda and thanked him, saying, "You have saved me from a great evil. I was beginning to think that Pundarika was a sensuous dilettante, but you showed me his true glory, which had been hidden to me."

He then said, "I have committed an offense to him, but if I take shelter and take mantra from him, then he will have to forgive me."

The verse may have been the inspiration itself. Though Putana was offensive, Krishna did not take offense because she came to him in the guise of a nurse. Similarly, when one who has committed some offense to a Vaishnava, then by taking shelter of him as a disciple he is forgiven his foolishness, because the Vaishnavas are as merciful as Krishna himself.

(Chaitanya Bhagavata Madhya 7)

Well, maybe you don't have to, at least not until you genuinely see how Tripurari Maharaj is a great soul. But be careful about all these rumors.

Well, as seems to be the tradition here, when one poster completely confuses everyone with their postings, we step back & address the person in their own thread. So I figured I would kick one off for Bhakta David.

Bhakta David, if you don't mind, could you answer these questions?

1. Are you a believer in the 'Ritvk Theory' that is making the rounds in ISKCON as of late?

2. What exactly is your understanding of the term 'guru-tattva'?

3. What is your concern over the implementation of 'guru-tattva' in your institution of choice, ISKCON?

4. Do you think varnashrama can be implemented in 'modern' society?

5. Do you think there is a coming 'Golden Age', and if so, how do you see it coming about?

This about covers the major questions I would humbly like to ask Bhakta David to answer... I'm basing these questions on posting Bhakta David has made here on GD to date.

although my thread has run it's course I feel Bhakta David has more of an agenda in here than I did. He is a ritvik through and through just as I am an Iskcon devotee. However I DO recognise there may be other "bona-fide" sampradayas out there somewhere. But "work now and samadhi later". I haven't done any service yet so I am not ready to just go somewhere in Vrndavana and retire for my own happiness.

Srimati Radharani ki jaya! Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Gourapremanandi Hariharibol!

I confess to you all, I want to retire in Vrndavana for my own happiniess!
Forget saving the masses, it's overrated.

Hari Bol Prabhus,

I just logged on a would be happy to respond by the end the day. I would also like to invoke the ideal of Gaudiya Vaishnava unity and ethics in the consideration of the original post.

Hare Krishna!

Bhakta ki jaja!

Bhakta David

Hari Bol

Audarya-lila dasa

He just wants to talk about this Lakshmi/Vishnu tattva issue. But from experience, I don't think the debate will turn out well if we bring it up again.

Dear Bhakt David,

I have no idea what your talking about. Who preaches Laksmi as Vishnu tattva? I think your confused - or at least your posts are very confusing and it's hard to ascertain what it is your saying or trying to accomplish.

As I said before, this site is mainly frequented by devotees who have little to no affiliation with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's lineage. If you seek historical information about a particular individual you should probably talk to the person yourself.

History is a funny thing. Because they are many people involved the same events tend to be viewed quite differently. It's not that the history is different, rather it's that each person views it from their own unique perspective.

But really from my own perspective I would say that you need good guidance, not history lessons. You need to find someone who has genuine feeling for Krsna and pray that they share that feeling with you. This is the need of all of us at all times. Krsna is in the heart of the vaishnava, so if we want to know Krsna we should look to find a sadhu who is willing to share their heart with us.

Good luck in your journey.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

Hari Bol, Prabhus.

1. Yes I consider my self a Ritvik. Followers of Sridhara Maharaj and Madhavacarya are accepting this position as a system.

2. Guru Tattva is a potency that reveals itself to a devotee as such surrenders correctly. There is Vishnu Tattva – Guru Tattva – Jiva Tattva. There has been substantial positions already presented.

3. I am discussing this in the abstract. There are two organizations that can legally use the term ISKCON. They are the diksa encampment and the ritvik encampment as IRM. The IRM has completely legally won this issue. The PSS has forced the GBC out of a temple in New York State. I do not know if they wish to consider themselves ISKCON. ISKCON correctly would be Srila Prabhupada's math as I see it. This is to say those that are following in the spirit and legally of Srila Prabhupada. To do so means having a GBC to administer the mission specifically the Gurus and this would be the Ritviks. There is a term Prabhupandunuga that refers to followers of Srila Prabhupada and there are differences. This to me is all political abstracts at this point. The quality and substance of being a Vaishnava is missing.

4. Varanashrama. It is prophesized so on the point of sraddha I believe it. I am a social scientist so I have an interest here. The consensus is it is a long way off but there are those that do discuss it.

5. Golden Age. I believe that such started with Mahaprabhu. I believe that corrupt political forces have entrapped the mission as law enforcement. Devotees took clandestine deals with police while being extorted and the results are all these qualitative mishaps. The condition in Russia they say is tenuous at best. The IRM does not believe that there is any organized conspiracy against Vaishnava’s and their mission. I do not agree with this. If the Golden Age is to come about a more substantive and non-fatalistic culture has to sustain and take root.

Overall I am not a zealot. I believe in Gaudiya Vaishnava unity. If a position arises that is handed down within a system of parampara I will accept at face that there is pluralism. I believe there is need simply to sensitize certain issues as to their existence and respect some of these positions at a distance, as there are four samparadaya’s.

This is a simple response to Prabhu Madhava’s post as we have discusses some issues already elsewhere.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Can I have those two conclusions in one bundle please? I'll buy it anytime!

Haribol Vamidas


Your statement is misleading.

Hari bol Prahus

Vamisdas questions my academic ability with ad-hoiminem. Who is to blame on this. I choose free will. This reflects the equilibrium of one's ettiquette. In Freuduian terms Vamsidas responses are what is known as

Hari Bol Madhava

I am getting there. This is Tripurari Maharaj. We need Caitanya Math.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9901/ET21-2893.html

Hari bol Prabhus

Sridhara Maharaja's 'Final Order'


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BY GAURIDASA PANDITA DASA


Use the same quote as Mahraja Tripuarai.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9901/ET08-2811.html

Hari Bol Prabus

http://www.scsmath.com/docs/successor.html

THIS IS DEAD ON THE WATER. THE OFFICIAL CHAITNATYA MATH SITE.

Declaration of the Spiritual Succession
of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math

by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj
Public Declaration

by Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj
[from a recording on Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986]

According to the desire of my Divine Master, I have been maintaining this Disciplic Succession but it is no longer possible for me, as I am now too old and an invalid. You all know from long ago I have chosen Sriman Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj and I have given him sannyasa. All my Vaishnava Godbrothers are very affectionate towards him and it is also their desire to give him this position. I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself.

Those who have any regard for me should give this respect and position to Govinda Maharaj as my successor. As much as you have faith in my sincerity, then with all sincerity I believe that he has got the capacity of rendering service in this way. With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative. So if you want to take from me, and you take by his hands, then it will be as well and as good as taking from me.

In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math. With all my sincerity and good feelings to Guru-Gauranga, to the Vaishnavas and the Acharyas, Mahaprabhu, Pancha-Tattva, Radha-Govinda and Their Parshadas, with all my sincere prayers to Them, henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function.

Now I shall go from here and he will do the necessary. On my behalf, he will give Harinama, diksha, sannyasa, and everything.

Bhakti Ki Jaya!

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Since it seems that the Bhakta David thread will just end up rehashing the same old points, I am merging it with the original thread he started. I do not think we need two threads for this at the moment.

Hari bol Prabhus,

It is mute that Govinda Maharaj is ritvik of Chaitanya Math. He was appointed such by Marajah Sridhara which is also mute. Their definition may contrast with IRM et al.

I am not too worried about Bon Maharja. He was proclaimed ritvik at one time. There are others that are Ritvik too. Quality and an integrity are the keys to real sadhana. This group has one of the best internet presences. Are they real?

As far as being popular is concerned if that was the case I would not proclaim to be a vaishnaiva. I would concoct bhava with LSD a la Jayatirtha or ganga. At swarasta.net I believe that they are following in the line of Bhaktisiddhanta. I am sure that my popularity there has its boundaries.

I am not the smartest person on earth but am perhaps highly resilient. It was said that St Augustine was 'only lines across the page" against St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas is considered the greatest authority on Jesus since the disappearnace of the Apostles.

I am energy pill clean to admit my frailities. At mundane school here in California the pseudo cult of ganga is at a stronghold and such worship in the path of Shiva and tama guna. This is moot.

I openly consider myself a Kanistha adhikari.

For all this scripture I can read and write well. I believe the "quote one out of millions" in finding the true devotee. I keep it simple and strong. Good sadhana means seeing Krishna everywhere; not that everything is Krishna. Acintya bheda bheda tattva. Simultaneously one and different.

Thank you for your consideration.

Hare Krsihna
Bhakta David

Hari Bol Prabhu

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0212/ET18-7679.html

The tattva of Radha is only slighly slightly superior to that of Laksmi, she is still a Vishnu tattva. This appears to be a slight difference in parampara purports by the masters behind us. I can only acceot as it is.

Tripurari states


EDITORIAL
December 18, 2002 VNN7679 About the AuthorOther Stories by this Author

Bhagavad-Gita Leads To Vrndavana

BY SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI


EDITORIAL, Dec 18 (VNN) — Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

"God engaged in lila is not, as some philosophers misconstrue, an example of Brahman contaminated by maya. According to the Gita there is nothing higher than Krsna (mattah parataram nanyat). It is not that he is a lesser expression of Brahman."

Q. Are the gods and goddesses actually expansions of Sri Sri Laksmi and Narayana?

A. In the material world, the gods and goddesses known as devas are partial manifestations of Laksmi and Narayana, who are themselves expansions of Radha and Krsna, respectively. The devas are divine in the sense that they are empowered by Narayana and his consort Laksmi. The individual souls who achieve posts as devas are very pious devotees. This, however, is not the case for Siva and Devi, who are manifestations of divinity in a class of their own. Siva is a transformation of Visnu. This transformation has been compared to milk becoming yogurt. Siva's consort, Devi, is an expansion of Laksmi, who is herself an expansion of Radha.

Bhagavad-gita says that men of small knowledge worship the devas and receive fruits that are limited and temporary. It also says that those who worship demigods go to the abodes of the demigods, while those who worship Krsna reach his supreme abode (Bg. 7.23 and 9.25).

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Adurya lila Prabhu,

I have already typed up part of Thakura's approach on epsitemelogy. There is a long history of Laksmi as God or Laksmi as jiva. Madhva is stating Laksmi as Jiva. It does not matter what type of jiva.

I am not proving anything other than a six year old gurukuli might tell you one or another depending on their sampradaya.

In the interest of fairness why dont you write Maharaj or Sanga. I am using Bhaktivinode's epsitemology with his quotes for good reason.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari Bol
Madhava

There is an open discussion on the Ritvik guru or Officiating represenative.

It is mute that Govinda Maharaj is ritvik of Chaitanya Math. He was appointed such by Marajah Sridhara which is also mute. Their definition may contrast with IRM et al.

Here is my perspective.

There seems to be some suspicious folks showing up at this and other sites who appear to be so naive and in need of help.

I am not falling for it.
For example why do they all have difficulty with spelling and basic grammar?
Some even claim to have some education in their backgrounds.

What's up? Anyone else feel this way?

Jagta Prabhu

I believe there is transposition problem. I have went back and corrected posts. I am not sure if it is possible that if you click a page in your browser's history that it may overwrite your work.

I sincerely apoligize for grammer.

Over all genuine substance and sincerity are superior although both would be nice.

I believe this is the major issue. It is clear that not all camps teach the exact dot and title. This is the purport of Chaitanya himself on these issues. Grammer and logic can only be in support.

I am openly willing to accept the differences if they do indeed exist in superior teachings as parampara purports. This is just a discovery confirming that such differences are there.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

The only mystery is why David is tormenting us with this Ritvik philosophy. Let him go and discuss these things on some other group where people care.

David is hanging out in college and picking up a few words to drop here and there. What is the use if he can't construct a lucid sentence? I am sure that we can all go hunting in our thesauri for obscure malapropisms if our intent was to be opaque.

These are the games of a child, for whom new words are a toy to play with, and not a serious academic. And yet, David claims to be 43 years old! Come on, David, step up.

Haribol Prahbus

In degree Sridhara Maharaj did institute a Ritvik Succession. To discern this issue in a discussion forum has limitations. This is a true issue on the Guru tattva.

This will be discussed for years on end. There are Madhavacarya scholars and Sridhara Maharaj himself who believed that Srila Prabhupada desired to institute a new system.

This at first was hard for me to comprehend as there is a deep tradition and shastric history on this issue.

This is what is apparent. Acharyas do indeed begin their own systems. I am not a learned pandita. This is what these sources are stating Srila Prabhupada wanted. The links are posted.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Jagta, Vamisdas and Adurya-lila. For heaven's sake, at least type our names straight. Though I kind of liked Mahdhava, it has a nice ring to it. Reminds me of the Finnish word "mahtava" (wonderful, awesome, mighty), which is of course flattering. However, I am NOT Madhva.

OK

My vote?

David out the door!

He's a fake and an....

Hari bol

Sakhicharan

I found your vote funny. Feel free to give an HONEST CRITIQUE. The Ritvik issue is emotionally charged. I do not know if this is why you say such? I know this site is Babji's essentially.

DhramaChakra started a thread and I attempted to be honest and complete.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

I wish again that this post was coherent enough to merit a response, David. If you are sincere, please go back and do as I asked you in my previous post--please.

There is an EDIT button above the upper right hand corner of each post. Use it--frequently if necessary. I am sorry, but if you are sincere, read and reread what you write. Don't try to impress us with your vocabulary, but rather to make what comes out onto the screen sufficiently representative of what is in your head that others will be able to respond meaningfully.

For instance, is the following paragraph anything other than pure mystification?

All right. So let it be the ritvik issue then. Here's my contribution.

• There is no precedent for initiation via proxy for departed acharyas in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, nor is such a practice endorsed anywhere in the writings of our acharyas. To the contrary, hearing from and associating with the guru is recommended, and it is rather unambiguous that a living guru who is present among us is meant. This is also the example of all of our acharyas.
• In that Caitanya Saraswat Math of Sridhar Maharaja, there is no practice currently in place for conducting initiations via a proxy so that people would become disciples of Sridhar Maharaja. Rather, since his departure, people have been becoming disciples of Govinda Maharaja.
• The ISKCON issue is rather obscure with Swami Maharaja's instructions open to debate. When there is confusion with the guru-aspect of pramAna, we must turn to the sAdhus and the zAstras. The zAstras do not speak of such a method of initiations, and the sAdhus outside the ISKCON establishment do not endorse such a practice. The opinions of some Madhva-teacher are irrelevant, since we are talking about Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

That's about that, I think. I do not see why there is such a controversy over the issue. It is just plain wrong, a concoction that flies in the face of the tradition. And no, even if you say that "Prabhupada said so", a guru cannot fly in the face of both sAdhu and zAstra. In such cases, the guru must be neglected.

Therefore, if such dubious practices are attributed to Swami Maharaja, then we must neglect his views as they are in violation of the standards of pramAna in our sampradAya. Of course, you may want to consider yourself a separate Bhaktivedanta-ritvik-sampradAya if you wish. Just don't go around presenting yourselves as representatives of the orthodox Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.

I differ slightly from Madhava. A guru may institute a new system if he feels it is helpful.


However, the main objection I have to the Ritvik philosophy is that it assumes there are no worthy sadhus capable of initiating. This is a kind of Vaishnava aparadha, and Vishwanath Chakravarti says it is also guror avajna, another of the offenses to the Holy Name. (This is in the long commentary to Bhag. 6.2.9-10).

The Ritviks are the lowest of the Vaishnava communities because they deliberately avoid the company of advanced Vaishnavas. Unfortunately, they take the situational instructions to not associate with certain Vaishnavas to be an eternal instruction not to associate with any Vaishnavas outside their own group. This is the worst kanishtha mentality, because it recognizes only purely external characteristics (such as belonging to a certain worldly institution) as the only valid criterion for judging who is worthy of association.

The "svarupa laksana" of a Vaishnava is not given anywhere in any shastra as "belonging to Iskcon" or "being the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami." That is not even the tatastha laksana. The svarupa laksana of a Vaishnava is that he is fully surrendered to Krishna. The tatastha lakshanas are 25 in number. These are the things you should be looking for.

Furthermore, the Ritviks claiim to be above the regulative system of diksha parampara that existed prior to Prabhupada, as though they were above rules. And yet, they are the most brain-busting legalists of any Vaishnavas out there. David paraphrases this by saying "sincerity is more important than spelling or grammar," but the Ritviks don't really believe it. They believe that we must follow their convoluted logic and avoid the association of Vaishnavas who hear and chant about Krishna.

I have heard that the Ritviks are doing nice things. I certainly hope so. But the ones I encounter seem incapable of getting past GO in their obsession about succession.

If you are sincere, then do as Prabhupada said, "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

"The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord himself. Nobody can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original Spiritual Master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritual realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders."

Read the whole thing, Gita 4.34.

Hari bol

Madhava

I am sorry, I really do not know what you are on about.

Of all the Vaishnavas, the Ritviks are generally speaking on the lowest rung. Why? Because they accept as an article of faith that there are no Vaishnavas outside their own limited group worth associating with, nor anyone who is qualified to give them initiation. This is a kind of egotism and resistance to the prescribed path of spiritual life that interferes with genuine advancement in bhakti.

The Ritviks take a conditional, specific instruction of Srila Prabhupada as more important the permanent, eternal instruction to associate with advanced Vaishnavas, assuming that there are no advanced Vaishnavas. This is a kind of a priori Vaishnava aparadha.

The most exalted Vaishnavas may be extremely rare, but Krishna has not abandoned the world. His dear ones do roam about here and there, and he will bring you into contact with them when the time is right.

The Ritviks live in the midst of a great paradox: They claim that Prabhupada alone is capable of lifting them to the highest exaltation of spiritual life, while at the same time denying that anyone has ever been so exalted. If I were to say, "Only this person can teach me mathematics." And you asked, "Who then has learned from you?" And I answer, "No one." Will you be able to take me seriously? Is this attitude not a type of aparadh against the very person you claim to be exalting?

Furthermore, as a general principle, Vishwanath Chakravarti, in his commentary to Bhag 6.2.9-10, indicates that to think that there is no one capable of initating you is also a kind of guror avajna--

Babru Prabhu

Please return to the link in question on said post. It is OFFICIAL. SIGNED AND DATED BY MAHARAJ SRIDAHRA.

I enjoy the fact that you are an english teacher on staff. The integrity of all persons is at stake. This is a mundane consideration here, but on campuses the teachers are pandering in such a large degree to the students and popular milieu's it is hard to take such seriously.

California is a liberal academic environment. I find that at times it would it be a farce to present my professors to devotees or devotees to my professors. There has to be transparency to the shastras, not games.

I went to school two years ago and a devotee, a very nice one, would come to school in saffron dhoti always but would not openly proclaim that he was a devotee. This is one's personal taste. Mundane Bhakta David would openly profess such. Come to think of it I got an A on a book report and course. The devotee took regular english. The text was Bhaktivinode Thakura,

Yeah, I've read that several times, and carefully. Here's what it is: two separate documents, one appointing Govinda Maharaja as his ritvik within SCSM, and another naming him as his successor acharya for SCSM. So what does that have to do with anything here. It's your job to make the connection clear. If you fail to do so, you should not be surprised that anyone here finds it hard to take you seriously.

As annoying as Gopidust's posts can be, I'd really rather read them than yours. Although they're silly and often offensive in tone, and seriously mistaken in fact, they're at least clearly written, for the most part. And she is, by her own account, an 18-year-old girl who is clearly trying to find some footing in Krishna consciousness. And I think some of us may occasionally find her feistiness amusing.

Please take seriously the advice you have received here. It's meant to help you.

And I agree strongly with Audarya-lila: you need spiritual guidance, even before the writing instruction. What I have observed in almost every new ritvik proponent I've encountered on the web is that their training in how to deal with other devotees is severely deficient.

In answer to Madhava, my feeling is that in certain cases certain principles may be given priority over others. There are rational reasons for the rise of Ritvikism, as we all recognize. Our solution has been to abandon ship, so to speak.

There is a certain logic to Ritvikism, like Babhru says, it is possible to sympathize with it. Let's say that being kanishtha is better than nothing, and it is possible that a Ritvik may go on to bigger and better things. So, there is a meaningful place for it in the universal hierarchy...

However, I think that the principle of taking shelter of Guru is an even more universal or "scientific" one, which you either recognize as such or you don't. The basic principle is that of surrender to a human vehicle of Divine Mercy, a recognition of the living presence of Divine Mercy in a human individual, that must be frankly and humbly admitted if one is to make genuine spiritual progress.

I personally don't see how one can see the presence of Divine Grace in Srila Prabhupada without having first encountered it in some form in a living person. That is why I say, "Any port in a storm." If you are desperate enough for shelter, you will grab onto a piece of flotsam bobbing in the stormy sea, or a root protruding from a cliff. It may not be terra firma, but it is hope.

It is the same thing with initiation or Vaishnava sanga. If you have faith in the goal of attaining Krishna, you have already achieved a great deal. Faith means you have entered the stream (to use the Buddhist term "sotopanna"). Sraddha means that you know you must find someone who is connected to the home base, who holds the lifeline.

It is something of an adventure--you have been given clues and you must take steps to find the treasure. Tirthikurvanti tirthani. Even if nowhere else--great souls are hiding out in the tirthas, in the temples. You look for drunks in a bar, and really great drunks in a bar in Las Vegas. You look for Vaishnavas in a temple, and for really great Vaishnavas in the Holy Dham.

David, in my opinion, the Ritviks are traffickers in Vaishnava aparadh. They say a priori that there are no Vaishnavas, and then they set about proving their proposition by finding fault . Do you think such people will ever attain pure devotion?

sAdhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva shastra koy
lava matra sadhu sange sarva siddhi hoy.

Hari Bol Prabus,

This was renewed by DharmaChakra. I politely attempted to answer all questions.
This issue at hand is Guru Tattva. The Sridhara Maharaja's succession has added a new dimension to the issue. I respect these devotees as some of the foremost Vaisnavas alive.

I have read and studied their commentaries. I see similarities. It appears that Sridhara Maharaj may be accepting diksa to him through these ritivks. This is the Prabhupundanuga position. Madhava states that the disciples are Govinda Maharajas.

The Madhava Acarya scholars are stating that accepting Srila Prabhupada as diksa guru is not anti-Vedic.

In the big picture they will all disagree with each other!

I am choosing peace and respect. OM TAT SAT.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Here speaks Swami Tripurari:

David, I find it hilarious that you FIRST come here and assert your position, and THEN go to Saraswata.Net or wherever to do your homework and actually ask questions about how the thing worked with Sridhar Maharaja.

Haribol Madhava

It was from here that this site was suggested. Was not Babhru a moderator there. If they have the answer to the Ritvik/Acarya position as they appear to be direct followers in this line this a good source.

I will be simple. If they can not answer a basic question regarding their disciplic succcession as who are such, what authority do they have, what is your relationship to such, and other basics, such lack credibility.

This Guru Tattva issue is important. I am less gullibble. I am not going to run out and attempt to surrender to any guru that any dhoti clad person claims is the true follower.

History is on my side. If I approached the devotees who steered me to said parties their spiritual credibilty has declined. I do not hold this against such personally but this is far beyond typos on a discussion board.

This is a personal issue but as I read through histories of the members here it rings true.


Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Again, I wish to congratulate you for a post that doesn't seem to have a consistent strand of thought running through it at all. They - who is the they you are talking about?

I have just cited the opinion of a person who was around as one of the said "ritviks" of Sridhar Maharaja, and given you two links to his rather unambiguous opinion. What do you mean, "history is on my side"? You have just demonstrated on several occasions that you haven't got the faintest clue of what the history is, suggesting that BH Bon was a ritvik of BR Sridhar and so forth.

...

Bhakta David, your next post will be number 108. Depending on the merits of that post, you will either become a moderated member or be allowed to continue as before.

I just had a really weird dream... snooze snooze...

Hari Bol Prabhus

I would like to conclude here with an observation and summary. Every few days I usually load two Srila Prabhupada lectures into my MP3 player. One of the most important realizations I have had is the nature of true Bhakti and devotion.

I am not proclaiming that I have such but have been given an insight to how superficial some of my earlier insights were over the same mateial.

On one lecture Srila Prabhuapda had narrated how Mahaprabhu had entered a temple and there was a devotee "reading the Bhagavad Gita". Chaitanya asked "What are you doing?". The devotee responded that "My spiritual master has ordered that I read the Gita three hours per day." Chaitanya asked the devotee to read some Sanskrit to him. The devotee could not read and was only turning the pages and looking at the pictures.

The devotee was ashamed as that it was know known that he was illiterate. He said "My spiritual master has ordered that I read so I read."

Chaitanya noticed that the devotee would cry when he saw the pictures of Krishna driving Arjuna's chariot.

Chaitanya hugged him and said that "You are the greatest of all."

There is something here prima facie that explains what I am looking for. I have had association with persons that are highly qualified at the material level. I had some association with devotees that can bridge both worlds, spiritual and material.

I am not a very folkish person, but somehow in the Sankirtan Movement "The baby is getting thrown out with the bath water."

As stated I am a social scientist. One model states that all systems tend to develop stratisification and oligarchialize. This is more appropiate for the manner in which my mind works. There is a nature in this "devotee" that is absent everywhere.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Live long and prosper, David. I think it's about time we call an end to this thread.