Gaudiya Discussions Archive » OTHER VAISHNAVA TRADITIONS

Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and the such.

Mirabai - What do Gaudiyas think of her?

Openmind - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:09:08 +0530

In a Hungarian forum often visited by devotees somebody asked a question:
"What do Gaudiya Vaisnavas think about Mirabhai and her works? In a purport by Prabhupad I read that she was not bona fide."

Have you heard or read anything about her from GV acharyas, teachers?

Kishalaya - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:38:16 +0530

QUOTE (Openmind @ Sep 1 2004, 12:09 PM)

Meera never said she was a Gaudiya Vaishnava. I have heard some people denounce her because she apparantly said something to Jiva Gosvami, which the Gaudiyas cannot swallow, and because she does not think like the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Ok there are differences, but wholesale denouncement is maya.

Madhava - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:13:01 +0530

Oh, the good old bonafide. If what Prabhupada defines as acceptable for his group is bonafide, then no, she wouldn't be defined as bonafide. All this bonafide jargon is really a bit tiresome. Is chocolate bonafide, is Mirabai bonafide? Just what the heck is bonafide anyway.

The reality of the incident with Jiva or whoever is questionable. It is said that she went to meet Jiva Goswami, who was the leader of Vaishnavas there. However, Jiva came to Vraja around 1541, and rose to a leading position only after the departure of his mentors, Rupa and Sanatana, while Mira came to Vraja in 1538 and passed away in Dvaraka in 1546. The dates hardly match for this to be possible. At any rate, I haven't heard anyone have real issues with that. Some, I've heard complain, say that she was an impersonalist at the core as she merged with Dvarakadish in the end. However I find that, too, hard to believe. if there's nothing but the merging with the deity offered as the rationale.

At any rate, I don't see a point denouncing her any more than Swami Haridas or any other contemporary non-sampradAyika sAdhus. They are not in our tradition, so we don't follow them, and that's that. There is hardly a need to disrespect everyone whom we might not follow. Let us rather appreciate her for her abundance of devotion.

Madhava - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:31:47 +0530

QUOTE (Openmind @ Sep 1 2004, 08:39 AM)

"In a purport by Prabhupad I read that she was not bona fide."

Let's see about that.

"The celebrated Mirabai was a staunch devotee of Lord Krishna as the great lifter of Govardhana Hill. The life history of many such devotees is almost the same because there is always symmetry between the early lives of all great devotees of the Lord."

- REF. SB 2.3.15, purport

Dr. Patel: One Gosvami refused to see Mirabai, and then she said that “There are only be men at the bhajana, not that... Krishna is the only man...”
Prabhupada: One thing is, we don’t find any authoritative scripture that Mirabai ever met Rupa Gosvami, but they say like that in Vrindavana. But from the life of Rupa Gosvami, we understand that the Gosvamis were so popular in Vrindavana that if there was any family quarrel, husband and wife, they used to come to Rupa Gosvami to settle up, and automatically he would give the decision, and they would settle up. So how it is possible that he did not see any woman?
Dr. Patel: He did not, ah, Rupa Gosvami or Jiva Gosvami, some other Gosvami, they say.
Giriraja: It was Jiva Gosvami.
Prabhupada: Jiva Gosvami?
Giriraja: Yes.
Prabhupada: Why Jiva Gosvami should not see woman? That is also doubtful.

- REF. Morning Walk -- December 17, 1975, Bombay

"I have no objection for Mirabai's songs, but I think Hare Krishna is the greatest common factor understandable by all people all over the world."

- REF. Letter to: Ksirodakasayi -- Los Angeles 29 January, 1970

"Just like Mirabai. She was playing with Krishna-doll and later on she became a very high-grade devotee."

- REF. Bhagavad-gita lecture 6.40-42 -- New York, September 16, 1966

I cannot find anything non-bonafide there.

It would indeed have been more likely that she'd met with Rupa Goswami, if a meeting of any kind would have taken place.

Satyabhama - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:28:56 +0530

QUOTE

...say that she was an impersonalist at the core as she merged with Dvarakadish in the end. However I find that, too, hard to believe. if there's nothing but the merging with the deity offered as the rationale.

Yes, I would be very surprised if somebody came to this conclusion. A lot of great female devotees who loved Krishna in this fashion are said to have merged with the deity. Andal (alwar) also merged with Sri Ranganatha. This does not have a thing to do with any impersonalist tendencies.

Meera might have mentioned the other kind of mukti in one of her songs. I can't properly remember, but if so, I think it was to suggest to Krishna that even that kind of impersonal liberation would be better than the intense pain she was feeling at His absence, which was totally unbearable. Anyway, I'm darn sure she was not an impersonalist.

Kishalaya - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:11:41 +0530

QUOTE (Jagat)

Objections to Mirabai are often expressed in Gaudiya Math circles, not because she is not a great devotee, but because her mood differs somewhat from that of the Gaudiyas. I would imagine that the same is true in tradional Gaudiya Vaishnava circles.

She would fall into the sambhogecchamayi category, I guess. I don't think she glorifies Radha.

Well, she is not a Gaudiya vaishnava, so I think she should be left alone. Some of the "objections" are simply ridiculous.

Jagat - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:18:07 +0530

Sorry, somehow I posted this on another thread.

Objections to Mirabai are often expressed in Gaudiya Math circles, not because she is not a great devotee, but because her mood differs somewhat from that of the Gaudiyas. I would imagine that the same is true in tradional Gaudiya Vaishnava circles.

She would fall into the sambhogecchamayi category, I guess. I don't think she glorifies Radha.

Satyabhama said, "I don't think she even mentions Radha."

Satyabhama - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:23:59 +0530

yes fine, Meera is not to most Gaudiyas' taste. So, that's ok. The attitude that some exhibit that Meera is "not a real devotee" because she doesn't have x sentiment, is not valid in my view.

If some find her devotion distasteful, it is possible to simply ignore, or pay obeisances from afar and forget...

Jagat - Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:56:58 +0530

I agree. As a matter of fact, there is no reason why Gaudiyas cannot fully appreciate the sentiments of Mira's poetry.

babu - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:48:29 +0530

Mirabai is Krishna's problem... He married her.

Satyabhama - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:13:55 +0530

True, He'd better take care of her or some people will be upset with Him.

Kishalaya - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:18:21 +0530

And people better remember that she is in His care, or He will be upset with them

Satyabhama - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:58:35 +0530

Don't worry! Who cares what people think of her? He is more than capable of protecting her. Besides, her music is so intoxicating that it's quite clear that she's just so very very good.

gopidust - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:06:41 +0530

As an Iskcon (gasp!) devotee I can say Prabhupada said Mirabai is bonafide. The story goes that when the Goswami said he would not talk to a woman, Mira said, "Krishna is the only male in Vrndavana," so he agreed to talk with her.

She is not in the same sampradaya someone said? Oh well, I would love to take shelter of her and guidance from her.

They have Mirabai dolls in Vrndavana for sale cheaply that look very nice. Somebody got the quote from Prabhupada mixed up as usual it seems.

Mirabai ki jaya!

Jagat - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:30:07 +0530

mIrA bAI ("madame"), not bhAi ("brother"). According to Platts, it is derived from the Sanskrit "bhavatI", which is the feminine form of the polite or respectful pronoun. bhAi is derived from Sanskrit bhrAtA, "brother."

bAI is also used as a nickname for "harlot or dancing girl." If you add jI, it is pretty derogatory. So it is a bit of a dangerous word to use. In Mira's case, it is almost integral to her name (she uses it in her own signature to her songs), but in modern society, I would not advise appending it to a woman's name.

Elpis - Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:58:11 +0530

According to Narasingha (see here), Mirabai is a "pseudo-vaisnavi." He further cites Sridhara, according to whom Mirabai is an "apparent devotee." Tripurari (see here) writes: "According to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Mirabai would have done well to associate with true devotees of Krsna and thus have had the chance to become one herself." So, he does not consider Mirabai a true devotee and implies that neither did Sridhara. It is probably from this that some devotees have gotten the idea that Mirabai is not "bona fide."

Arthur Avalon has some information about Mirabai and JIva in his introduction to his edition of the Brahma-saMhitA with JIva's commentary. This may be worth looking up.

Madhava - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:11:19 +0530

Some relevant quotes from his discussions. The faint-hearted may want to skip over this post.

QUOTE (1981 @ September 20th To Bharati Maharaja)

"Bhaktivinode Thakura is very clean in his analysis of the previous exponants Tulsi das, Mira Bai, they are rejected from suddha-bhakti school, but generally people think that they are devotees of the higher order, but they are not accepted by Bhaktivinode Thakura Prabhupada. They want to cross, to know the whole svarupa-sakti department, and want to connect themselves direct with Krishna, which is impossible, that is concoction, cannot but be concoctionl. Ignoring the whole eternal existence fo sakti-system, the whole system ignored. And they want to have direct connection with Krishna, which is impossible, so they are in Maya, misunderstanding, misconception, there.

In the same discussion, he also explains how his guru disregarded Pandit Rama Krishna Das Babaji. The discussion is titled "Sannyasa over babaji, thread over kaupina". In other words, "how we are better".

QUOTE (Sri Guru and His Grace)

The direct approach to Krishna is improper. One must approach Him through the proper channel, through the devotees. That is the real approach. Therefore, Gaudiya Math eliminates Mirabhai and so many other apparently great devotees from the category of real devotees, because, although they are mad in praise of Krishna, they have little regard for the real devotees of Krishna.

I wonder, does Gaudiya Math eliminate the Alvars?

I am moving this to the "Other Vaishnava Traditions" forum.

Kishalaya - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:22:01 +0530

QUOTE (Elpis @ Sep 2 2004, 11:58 PM)

Jagat ji said that the use of the word "fundamentalist" is provocative. I wonder what would one call such an attitude. About this particular Gaudiya Math, I was hurt a lot when I read those statements about Meera years ago, and I feel the resentment to this very day.

Kishalaya - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:27:24 +0530

QUOTE

Gaudiya Math eliminates ...

Horiiiii Bol !

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 01:23:46 +0530

QUOTE

I wonder, does Gaudiya Math eliminate the Alvars?

I wouldn't be surprised, since it seems that the Alwars are *only* concerned with approaching God directly. Especially my near and dear Srimati Andal... I've never heard them speak on Her without saying "She is an incarnation of Radha" which is simply unfounded. (Oh Gaudiya Math! Please do not touch my Godai!)

Concerning the quote

QUOTE

although they are mad in praise of Krishna, they have little regard for the real devotees of Krishna.

I would say Meera had great regard for the "real devotees." I don't mind telling you that it was her songs alone that got me through some *very* tough times in my spiritual life. So, she is number one in my book.

And Tulasi das wrote Ramacaritamanasa, and HANUMAN CHALISA, which is a song of praise to Lord Hanuman, who is the absolute number one devotee of Sri Rama. And when we want to praise Lord Hanumanji, we sing this chalisa, which grants whoever chants it undying devotion to the lotus feet of Lord Ramachandra from birth to birth.

Is this something to sneeze at?

God, I should learn to read with my head and not my heart. Give me some time to calm down.

Elpis - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:14:47 +0530

QUOTE (Madhava @ Sep 2 2004, 02:41 PM)

I wonder, does Gaudiya Math eliminate the Alvars?

In this link is found an article from The Harmonist, judging from which it appears that Siddhanta Sarasvati accepted Tiruppani Alvar as an incarnation of ViSNu's zrIvatsa mark. So, I guess that the Alvars are not eliminated... But do not ask me for a rationale for why Mirabai is eliminated but the Alvars (or Tiruppani, at least) are not.

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:17:30 +0530

Oh, but I would like to know why. But then again perhaps it's better if the alwars are simply left out of the discussion.

For me, if anyone "eliminates" the alwars, they have in the process eliminated me also... permanently.

gopidust - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:40:22 +0530

It seems that different members of the same group either accept or reject various devotees.

babu - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:43:13 +0530

The problem here seems to be with Krishna for getting involved in loving pastimes with devotees who haven't gone through the proper disciplic channels.

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:47:44 +0530

QUOTE

The problem here seems to be with Krishna for getting involved in loving pastimes with devotees who haven't gone through the proper disciplic channels.

Probably Krishna should also be rejected! He breaks so many rules!

(Just kidding folks. Hehe)

I guess that's why He's navaneeta chora... He steals people's butter without first inquiring about all these things... shame shame...

babu - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 06:09:20 +0530

QUOTE (Satyabhama @ Sep 2 2004, 09:17 PM)

Probably Krishna should also be rejected! He breaks so many rules!

And He's the one who makes all the rules.

Kishalaya - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:45:35 +0530

QUOTE (babu @ Sep 3 2004, 06:09 AM)

And He's the one who makes all the rules.

Sorry to tell you this, but its the middlemen -- the brokers, who make most of the odd sounding rules !

Kishalaya - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:55:36 +0530

QUOTE

And they want to have direct connection with Krishna, which is impossible, so they are in Maya, misunderstanding, misconception, there.

So Radha is in maya ?

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:36:24 +0530

QUOTE

And they want to have direct connection with Krishna, which is impossible

Who said it's impossible?

If Krishna wants a direct relation, He can have it. Krishna gets whatever He wants.

As for indirect relations, they abound. Everyone in your life has a small Krishna inside them. But if the people in mundane life are enough Krishna to satisfy you, then good for you if that means you are "not in maya."

I damn well would rather be in maya and have Krishna. No mukti for me, I want the simple, easygoing cowherd that doesn't make big demands of people that love Him, who is only interested in loving and being loved.

And maybe that means I am not a bhakta. Fine, bhakti is too difficult. I will be a prapanna instead. Then Krishna can't refuse...

"Sarva dharmaan parityajya maamekam saranam vraja; Aham tvaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami maa suchah" (BG ch. XVIII - 66)

Give up all other Dharma (Sarva Dharmaan parityajya), surrender to Me absolutely (Maamekam Saranam Vraja) and I will free you from all sins (Sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami). Do not grieve (maa suchah).

sakRd-eva prapannAya tavA-smIti ca yAcate/
abhayaM sarva-bhUtebhyo dadAmy-etad-vrataM mama //

Valmiki Ramayana: 6 - 18 - 33
I vouchsafe security against all living beings to him who comes to me only once
and seeks protection (from me) saying 'I am yours'; this is my vow.

sTithE manasi susvasTE sarIrE sati yO nara:
dhAthusAmyE sTithE smarthA visvaroopam cha mAmajam

tatastham mriyamANam thu kAshtA-pAshANa sannibham
Aham smarAmi Madhbhaktham nayAmi ParamAm gathim

(Varaha carama slokam from Varaha Purana)

The Entire Universe is My body (SarIram). I have neither
birth or death . When one performs SaraNAgathy to Me
with the firm belief that I am His everlasting support , I think of him, and rush to his side at the time of his death even if he has no control over his
senses and remains like a log or stone. I lead him then to My Supreme
abode via archirAdhi mArgam (path of light ) to perform nithya kaimkaryam
to Me there .

gopidust - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:03:28 +0530

Generally we need to follow a guru specifically in the line of a certain devotee in order to be a follower of them, for example, Mirabhai if she has a lineage left. Then we become her disciple and follow her to whatever planet she is at in the spiritual sky. But we can hear about the pastimes of a pure devotee without accepting diksa in her line. Certainly that is beneficial.

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:31:59 +0530

Oh, this kaliyuga wherein even something so simple as bhakti becomes so difficult!

Since we are in the "Other Vaishnava Traditions" section, I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the Sri Vaishnavas for their emphasis on prapatti as a means to achieve the Lord, when even bhakti becomes too difficult...

(From an Ahobila math article on prapatti)

The greatest burden (Bharam) for a baddha jIvAtmA is "bhakti yogA" because Sriman nArAyaNA would only grant moksham to a perfectionist of bhakti yogA. Though the jIvAtmA wishes to meditate continuously on nArAyaNA, it is not able to do so primarily because of its karmA.... Moreover, one cannot be sure of the number of future births that is needed to be taken while adopting bhakti yogA...

---------------------------

"ArE tuyar uzhandAr? tunbuRRAr ANDaiyAr?
kArE malinda karum kaDalai - nErE
kaDaindAnaik kAraNanai nIraNai mEl paLLi
aDaindAnai nALum aDaindu"

(Peyalwar's munram tiruvantadi, verse 27)

Has anyone ever heard of any devotee who has
surrendered at emperumAn's tiruvDigaL (feet), and then
got separated from Him because of sins and fell
into the narakam of samsAra for ever? Has anyone
heard of a case where one has committed lot of sins,
then surrendered to Him, and then still had to go through
the suffering associated with all their karma phalan?

Satyabhama - Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:40:59 +0530

Sorry!

Previous post probably would have fit better in the thread called:

"Vedanta and separate streams of bhakti, Alvars, Jayadeva, Nimbarka, Chaitanya etc."

Madanmohan das - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:07:33 +0530

I have a book which says Mira is in Gadadhara Pandit's parivara!

Madanmohan das - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:16:35 +0530

In A.J.Alston's book of Mira's poems I found a very sweet pada. Here it is

Giridhara is playing Holi
He plays to perfection
The flute, the lute and the drums,
Along with his companions, the women of Vraj.
Mohan Bihari scatters with his own hand
The sandlewood and saffron.
In large handfulls he flings the red powder
In all directions
And it falls on everyone.
There is the handsome youth Krsna
And with him is Radha,
Dear to him as life.
He sings the appropriate songs for Holi,
Clapping exquisitely in time with the music.
That great artist Syam is playing Holi,
And all Vraj is flooded with joy.
Mira's lord is the courtly Giridhara,
Is Mohan Lal, "the stroller in the woods".

Talasiga - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:11:29 +0530

Nathvara Laal Giridhar Gopaal
Meera Prabhuvara Shyaama Gopaal
Nathvara Laal Giridhar Gopaal

Vedashara Jiwane Aadhaar
Gopi Manohar Hriday Bihaar

Some devotees do not proceed through Radha to get to Krishna. They seek Krishna directly and Krishna in turn graces them with the gift of Radha. They may not know her by name but by mystic experience.

It matters not whether Gaudiyas accept Meera as a pure devotee or not. What is important for Gaudiyas is to accept that Radha and the other Gopis are not just the railroad to Krishna but they are his destination as well.

To love Radha purely is to love her as a causeless gift rather than as a means to an end. This is Pure Bhakti.

Chitra Sakhi ki Jay!

Satyabhama - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:52:40 +0530

QUOTE

It matters not whether Gaudiyas accept Meera as a pure devotee or not. What is important for Gaudiyas is to accept that Radha and the other Gopis are not just the railroad to Krishna but they are his destination as well.

To love Radha purely is to love her as a causeless gift rather than as a means to an end. This is Pure Bhakti.

Madanmohan das - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:52:09 +0530

Satyabhama - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:37:31 +0530

I do like the idea that Radha is cute and sweet enough to be loved for Her own merit and not "just" a "railroad" to Krishna as you said.

One doesn't need to be bullied into loving Radha. She is totally charming in Her own right.

One can love Krishna for Himself and Radha for Herself. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Anand - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:15:40 +0530

QUOTE

One can love Krishna for Himself and Radha for Herself. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

By himself is not complicated it is incomplete.

Satyabhama - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:19:53 +0530

nice try, but I'm done. bye bye!

Madanmohan das - Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:50:54 +0530

In "Sacitra Mirara Bhajan" by Bhagavan das Kavyatirtha the preceptorial succession that Mirabai is affiliated with is this;

Devi Mirabai's Guru pranali;

Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu's priya parsada Gadadhara Pandit Gosai had a sisya called Srimat Krsnadas brahmacari, his sisya was Srimat Narayana Bhattaji Goswami, he had two sisyas, Srimat Mathuradasji and Srimat Narayanadasji, the sisya of the former was Sri Mirabai.

Kalkidas - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 02:25:24 +0530

QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 1 2004, 06:20 PM)

Devi Mirabai's Guru pranali;

From FreeIndia.org:

One more story about how Mira got the idol of Sri Krishna is worth considering.

Rao Doodaji had much respect for monks and saints. Almost every day some monk or the other came to the palace as a guest of honor. Once a hermit called Raidas came to the palace. He was prominent among the disciples of Saint Ramanand who had spread the Vaishnava cult in North India. He had a beautiful idol of Sri Krishna. He used to worship it as his personal deity. Mira saw it and wanted it. She asked for it. She would listen to no one. She was stubborn and insisted on having it. Who would be prepared to part with his personal deity just to pacify a child? The hermit left the palace after enjoying the king's hospitality.

Mira did not stop crying. She gave up food and drink and went on crying for the idol.

Next morning Raidas returned to the palace and placed the idol of Sri Krishna, so dear to him, in Mira's hands. Her joy knew no bounds.

Greatly surprised, "What is this?" asked Doodaji. The hermit said, "Last night Sri
Krishna appeared in my dream and said: "My beloved devotee is crying for me. Go and give the idol to her.' It is my duty to obey my Lord's command, that is why I came back running. Mira is a great person." So saying the hermit blessed Mira and went away.

This is another story. Some scholars say that this happened about the year 1501-2. There are also people who say that the sanyasi was not Raidas but somebody else. Mira herself has said in a song:

"My mind has become one with Hari. I can see my path clearly. My master Raidas himself has given me the pill of wisdom. The name of Hari has been deeply inscribed on my heart..."

Thus Mira has clearly stated that Raidas was her spiritual master. So the story narrated earlier may be believed. The problem lies not so much in the story as in the name of Raidas mentioned in it.

Raidas, the disciple of Ramanand, was born in or about the year 1400. The story can be true only if Raidas lived for more than a hundred years. One other important point is that Raidas was a devotee of Rama. Therefore many persons do not believe that he had an idol of Lord Krishna. But it cannot be said that he never wor- shipped Krishna and that he did not have an idol of Krishna at all. Brindavana, Dwaraka, and the banks of river Jamuna, which are associated with Krishna's life, are places in North India. So naturally the people there were particularly devoted to Sri Krishna. In such circums- tances, it would not have been unusual even if Raidas had an idol of Sri Krishna.

Some scholars say that the hermit of this story was only a disciple of Raidas. It was a tradition to give the same name of the Guru to the disciple succeeding to the Guru's position. So this view may be correct.

----------------------
All, that I can add to this - if the date of dikSa is correct, Mira in no way could belong to gaudiyas, because in 1501-02 Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was still 15-16 years old. If it's not correct - still guru-praNali that you cited doesn't arouse confidence. It's well known fact, that when she took darsan of Sri Jiva Gosvamipada during her visit to Vrindavan she was not a young lady, so how it's possible that she belonged to the fourth generation of sisyas in Gaudiya parampara?

Madhava - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 02:43:06 +0530

QUOTE(Kalkidas @ Nov 1 2004, 09:55 PM)

It's well known fact, that when she took darsan of Sri Jiva Gosvamipada during her visit to Vrindavan she was not a young lady, so how it's possible that she belonged to the fourth generation of sisyas in Gaudiya parampara?

For the record, her meeting with Jiva is a far cry from a well-known fact, as mentioned in the third post of this thread.

Madanmohan das - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:03:57 +0530

I don't know. I've not gone into the book or delved the subject. The book I have is in Bengali, so it's not easy for me to read, but I'll go through as best I can and see what information can be gathered. Can't find a date for Mira's birth in this book. The consensus is that she was born about 1498, but that is hypothetical. Who knows?

Also, perhaps gurus and disciples and disciples of discples, at that time, could have been contempories, ie, it was not necessary for ones guru to have passed away to have disciples of your own.(?)

l

Madanmohan das - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:47:27 +0530

Even though the GM don't accept Mirabai, still they can't stop themselves singing her songs. Particularly The Narayana Maharaja camp often sing her songs and I believe they have at least one of them in their English song book.

Talasiga - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:30:16 +0530

If Chaitanya had met with Meera, would he have rejected her? Did he reject Guru Nanak when they met? Where are the Gaudiyas with this bit of history? Did he reject Guru Nanak? Do Gaudiyas reject Guru Nanak?

Did Chaitanya reject the Mayavadis? No! He touched them and brought about a sea change in their hearts. Had he met Meera he would have revelled in consonance. If, however, he found Mayavada in her association, do you really think he would have rejected her? Or do you think he might have touched her heart also?

It is not Chaitanyaite to go around rejecting other saints. If you can follow in his footsteps and genuinely aspire to touch the hearts of even the Mayavadis then your are entitled to call yourself a Gaudiya. To summarily judge someone as hellish or not bona fide with the intention of rejecting them is to run away from the path.

What makes a Gaudiya is not who they can reject but their ability to follow in the footsteps of Gauranga, their ability to embrace even the personification of the Void and fill it with Prem. Krishna Prem. Otherwise not.

Elpis - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:34:28 +0530

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 1 2004, 04:13 PM)

For the record, her meeting with Jiva is a far cry from a well-known fact, as mentioned in the third post of this thread.

I mentioned in this post that Arthur Avalon (Sir John George Woodroffe) writes about Mirabai and JIva in the introduction to his edition of the BrahmasaMhitA with JIva's commentary. I read it years ago and do not remember it clearly. Did anyone look it up?

babu - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:46:43 +0530

It seems to be oppurtune that the Mirabai Jiva meeting is presented as a "far cry from a well-known fact" due to from the accounts that I've read of Jiva being corrected on his devotional understanding by Mira.

“I thought the only male in Vrindavan is Krsna.”

Madhava - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:55:58 +0530

QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 2 2004, 10:17 AM)

There's been a good deal of disagreement over this. Narayana Maharaja, being a native Bihari (Boxar, Western Bihar, right next to UP border) coming from a family of Sri Vaishnavas, has more roots in the Hindustani way of life, into which Mirabai and Tulsidas fit much better. Consequently, for example ISKCON rejects Tulsidas due to some statements from Swami Maharaja, and Sridhar Maharaja's group rejects Mirabai, while Narayana Maharaja's group embraces both.

Anand - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:57:27 +0530

QUOTE

There is no contradiciton here, perhaps just misunderstanding. The "camp" of Srila Narayana Maharaja does not reject Mirabai, and does indeed celebrate some of her songs. I have been told by a member of that camp that she is an exalted vaisnava and thus honored as such.

Madhava - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:00:09 +0530

QUOTE(babu @ Nov 2 2004, 01:16 PM)

If you read the post I linked you up with, you'll see why it is a far cry from a well-known fact:

It is said that she went to meet Jiva Goswami, who was the leader of Vaishnavas there. However, Jiva came to Vraja around 1541, and rose to a leading position only after the departure of his mentors, Rupa and Sanatana, while Mira came to Vraja in 1538 and passed away in Dvaraka in 1546. The dates hardly match for this to be possible.

With such asynchronism, we can hardly think of such stories as factual. It is quite possible that she came and met someone who was identified as Jiva in the village stories of later generations where people weren't awfully concerned with facts and figures.

Anand - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:59:33 +0530

The passage below is from Govinda Lilamrta, translated by Advaita dasa. Here Radha’s gopi friend, Dhanistha, encourages Radha to “complete” Krsna by taking a specific course of action. (I wonder whether “complete” as a verb here is a literal translation from Krsnadas Kaviraja’s original. If it is, it seems to indeed be Dhanistha’s point of view that Krsna without Radha is incomplete.)

“O moonfaced Girl! Complete Krsna’s fine cleverness by offering it the stream of Your own fine cleverness! Fulfill His fresh full youth with Your fresh youthful beauty, His desire with Your lusty desire and Your nice ornamentation with His! O ladylove! Krsna is madly in love with You, His heart is full of love, pierced by Cupid’s arrows and surrendered to You! Now He has become agitated up to the point of fainting! So quickly go to see Your beloved! (36-37)

Satyabhama - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:38:20 +0530

QUOTE

It is not Chaitanyaite to go around rejecting other saints. If you can follow in his footsteps and genuinely aspire to touch the hearts of even the Mayavadis then your are entitled to call yourself a Gaudiya. To summarily judge someone as hellish or not bona fide with the intention of rejecting them is to run away from the path.

Wow, you are making a lot of sense lately Talasiga.

Citra sakhi ki jaya ho!

Anand - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:46:14 +0530

QUOTE

Narayana Maharaja's group embraces both.

"Does not disaprove of" rather than "embraces", is probably more reflective of the facts.

Kalkidas - Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:50:10 +0530

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 2 2004, 12:30 PM)

OK, OK! Let's just say, that I used a wrong word. I should rather write "... it's well known legend..." instead. But my point still remains: if Sanatana and Rupa are the first generation of gaudiyas, Jiva and al. are the second, and so on, it's quite unbelievable that Mira could belong to the fourth generation with good opportunity for dikSa from first generation.

Madhava - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:06:37 +0530

QUOTE(Kalkidas @ Nov 2 2004, 05:20 PM)

Yes, it does seem to go a long way down, you are right there. Not a very plausible presentation. Madanmohan, do you know anything of the author of this text or his sources?

Haridas Dasji doesn't mention of the connection in his GVA. He presents a rather common and short narration of Mira, which is duplicated below (p. 1314):

mIra bAi -- zrI-vRndAvane gosvAmi-gaNer avasthAna-kAle ini udayapurer rAja-prAsAda-tyAga kariyA zrI-zrI-giridhArI-jIur premer AkarSaNe vraje Asen | ihAr caritra bhakta-mAla 22za paricchede draSTavya | ihAr bhajana-gAna suprasiddha | zrI-jIva-pAder sahita ihAr kRSNa-kathA haiyAchila -- bhaktamAler 'bhakti-rasa-bodhinI' TIkAte (489 anucchede) ihAr spaSTokti Ache | ini ekaTi gaura-pada racanA kariyAchen -- tAhAr vividha pATha thAkileo sacarAcara ye bhAve gIta haya, tAhA ullikhita haila --

Mira Bai -- Around the time the Goswamis resided in Vrindavan, she became attracted by the love of Sri-Sri Giridhari, and abandoning the royal mansion, set out for Vraja. Her story may be found in the 22nd chapter of Bhakta-mala. Her songs of bhajana are widely known. The Bhakti-rasa-bodhini commentary (anuccheda 489) on Bhaktamala mentions of her engaging in Krishna-katha with Sri Jivapada. There is one poem she composed for Gaura. Among her various songs, she has written:

I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow the last sentence with the word "sacarAcara" there. That's an interesting way to describe the story of the meeting, "engaged in Krishna-katha".

Usually it is not presented in very complimentary terms. Does someone have the Bhakti-rasa-bodhini on Bhaktamala for full details of the story?

Would someone like to render this song into English? Madanmohan ji?

(sAdho) aba to harinAma lau lAgI |
saba jagako mana-mAkhana-cora nAma dharyau vairAgI ||
mAtu jazodhA mAkhana kAje bAndhyA yAko dAma |
zyAma kizorA bhayo nava gorA caitana yAko ||
kAGhA choDI bo mohana muralI kAGhA choDI bo gopI |
muNDa muDAi bhayo sannyAsI mAthe mAhi na TopI ||
pItAmbarako bhAva dikhAbai kaTi kaupIna kasai |
dAsa bhaktakI dAsI mIrA rasanA kRSNa basai ||

Madhava - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:07:27 +0530

QUOTE(Anand @ Nov 2 2004, 05:16 PM)

"Does not disaprove of" rather than "embraces", is probably more reflective of the facts.

I'd say singing her songs is a bit more than not disapproving. Granted, embracing is a bit strong. Let's have it mid-way, "approves of".

Satyabhama - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:07 +0530

QUOTE

Would someone like to render this song into English? Madanmohan ji?

I have the translation (bit different) here attributed to Meera. I will copy and paste it...

"ab to hari naam lou laagee, saadho!
saba jaga ko yaha maakhan choraa,
naam dharyo vairaagee! ..1..
kita chodi vohu mohan murali?
kita chodi saba gopi?
moond mundaayi dori kati bandhee,
maathe mohan topi ! ..2..
maata yasomati maakhan kaaran
baandhi jaaki paam,
shyaama kishore bhayo nava goraa,
caitanya jaako naam ! ..3..
pitaambar ko bhaava dikhaavai,
kati kaupeena kase,
gora krishna ki daasi meeraa,
rasanaa krishna base ! ..4..
ab to hari naam lou laagee! "

(taken from foreword of 'Sri Padyavali (Sri Roopa Goswami) - Hindi translation by Sri Vanamalidasa Sastri, Published by Sri Gopinatha Gaudiya Math)

O pious souls! Now, my consciousness is absorbed into the
Divine Names of my Hari! I surrender myself to His Holy Name
The entire world addresses Him as the 'Butter Thief'.
But now, He has earned another popular Name for Himself, as 'Vairaagi'- the dispassionate wandering monk! (Sanyasi)
O my dearest Mohan (Enchanter, Krishna)!
Why have You discarded Your intimate companion, Priya-Sakhi, the Divine Flute?
And why have You renounced all Your eternal Sweethearts, Gopis?
You appear now with shaven head and ochre cloth at Your waist!
But looking at the Mohan's diadem on Your head this clever Gopi recognizes Your disguise !
You're the same Thief Whose legs have been tied up by Mother Yasoda for stealing butter !
My Dark Beloved has now reappeared in bright new golden Form Whose blessed Name is 'Caitanya' !
Though clad Himself in skimpy rags, His Pitambara (Yellow Divine Attire) as well as His inner most Divine Love Sentiments are revealed to me.
Now Meerabai is the Hand-Maid of Golden-yellow Krishna, and He resides ever on her blessed tongue as His glorious Divine Name!

Madanmohan das - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:21:50 +0530

Brilliant!
As far as the four generations is concerned, as mentioned before, gurus and sisyas and sisyas of sisyas may well be contemporay, which makes counting years ambiguous. In Jaiva Dharma a disciple is introduced to his param guru.

Madanmohan das - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:37:46 +0530

Just to digress a little, why don't gurus, when they have a certain amount of sisyas let the senior sisyas take sisyas? The implications! Would solve alot of problems perhaps and keep things on a more intimate level. Moreover, those eager to be gurus would'nt have to wait for their guru to pass away.

Madhava - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:46:38 +0530

QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 3 2004, 12:07 AM)

But they do, and I believe it's even fairly common.

Madanmohan das - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:20:19 +0530

Fine.
As I'm looking at this book about Mirabai, I noticed in a foot note that Narayana Bhattaji was a Gaudesvara sampradaya acarya and a faithfull follower of Rupa, Sanatan. He revealed the vigrahas of Sriji and Dauji, and the Goswamis at Varsana are the disciplic decendants of this very Narayana Bhattaji, who is, according to the auther, the guru of Mirabai.
From what I can decipher so far there are no dates mentioned for anything.

Talasiga - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:49:55 +0530

QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 2 2004, 11:50 PM)

I am beginning to enjoy the notion that Meera, whose life and devotion has had a greater populist, musical and literary impact in Krishnaite devotionalism in India than all the post Chaitanya Goswamis put together, may have been, herself, formally a Gaudiya albeit she is currently rejected by some Gaudiyas.

Meera merged with Krishna in Dvaarak. "To merge" seems to be a dirty verb for some. They do not grasp that merging in the Divine does not imply loss of Distinction, loss of Self. They have not sufficiently contemplated bhedabhed. They cannot grasp the infinitude of differentiation in the the infinitude of oneness. Their appreciation of Divine Capacity is somewhat limited. It is not their fault. But it is not Meera's fault either.

Om Tat Sat

Madhava - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:01:29 +0530

QUOTE(Talasiga @ Nov 3 2004, 01:19 AM)

Meera merged with Krishna in Dvaarak. "To merge" seems to be a dirty verb for some.

I am under the impression that our very own Gauranga Mahaprabhu also merged into a deity in the end, so I am at loss over this objection.

Madanmohan das - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:27:04 +0530

I'm glad you enjoy that notion Talasiqa. I was thrilled when I picked up this book in Navadvipa a few years ago. I don't really mind who Mirabai's guru was, but that the claim is made that she was a Gaudiya, is as you say, is a blissfull notion.

Talasiga - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:15:41 +0530

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 3 2004, 12:31 AM)

QUOTE(Talasiga @ Nov 3 2004, 01:19 AM)

Meera merged with Krishna in Dvaarak. "To merge" seems to be a dirty verb for some.

I am under the impression that our very own Gauranga Mahaprabhu also merged into a deity in the end, so I am at loss over this objection.

I think the rationale for the objection could go something like this:-

"Gauranga and Krishna are one and the same. Therefore the concept of them merging is not theologically repugnant. Meera. on the other hand, is not an Avatar of Krishna and the notion of her merging is theologically preposterous - if she did merge, she could not be a rasik devotee (except, perhaps, in terms of Shaanta Ras) and if she is a rasik devotee and still merged it must be rasaabhaas.

" As neither the Shaanta Ras nor rasaabhaas are models of devotion for the Gaudiya path, Meera's hagiography is rejected as a guiding beacon for Gaudiyas. We do not reject the propriety of her devotion and spirituality. We do not reject that she is a saint. We accept the bhajan in her poetry. We accept her God, Krishna. But we do not accept her as a model for our path for the reason given earlier."

Madhava - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:23:55 +0530

If they ever hold elections in Gaudiya Math, I'll vote you for the acharya.

Talasiga - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:58:41 +0530

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 3 2004, 01:53 AM)

If they ever hold elections in Gaudiya Math, I'll vote you for the acharya.

Not so fast, you Finnish fiend! You have not yet read the postscript:-

"PS: We are also not pleased that Krishna allowed Meera to merge with His archana. Devotees should take note that this occurred in Dwaraka. It could never have happened in Vraja! Haribol! "

babu - Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:50:38 +0530

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 3 2004, 01:53 AM)

If they ever hold elections in Gaudiya Math, I'll vote you for the acharya.

Will there be provisional ballots for those voters whose vaishnava status is questionable?

Talasiga - Sat, 13 Nov 2004 04:29:20 +0530

QUOTE(babu @ Nov 3 2004, 11:20 AM)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov 3 2004, 01:53 AM)

If they ever hold elections in Gaudiya Math, I'll vote you for the acharya.

Will there be provisional ballots for those voters whose vaishnava status is questionable?

Do not concern yourself too much with this. Neither Meera nor myself are standing for any election.

Those who are votives are not so because they have been voted.