On presenting Gaudiya Vaishnavism en masse - Split from the freebie-thread

Hello! Reality Check, Guys!

If you want a religion that really "sells", then in this day and age, you are going to have to make a few changes.

Today "Prosperity Vaisnavism" is what we need in the Western countries (and in fact all over the world)!

Just look around you, most of the population of every nation on Earth is madly caught up in consumerism and globalization.

So if you can come up with a form of Gaudiya (or any other) Vaisnavism that preserves the basics and yet allows people to live near "normal" lives where they can comfortably continue to pursue all the purusarthas (dharma, artha, kama and moksha/prema) and at the same time get a real taste of bhava, then you have got a winning combination.

(By the way the Madhvas, Sri Vaisnava, Vallabhas and Swami Narayanas have already got such a winning combo, what to speak of the Buddhists, Christians, Muslims and certainly the Jews. So all you need is a charismatic leader who can make the adjustments and you are all set.)

Seriously though, your kit thing is a nice idea. But remember there is a steep learning curve for the average Joe out there to get him from "I know nothing" to "I wanna be a gopi."

Many people were receptive to ACBVS in the 60's and 70's when the counterculture youth of the west were rebelling and looking for a completely new philosophy and lifstyle. No more! Generation X, Y and Z are completely different animals. You may tend to believe otherwise because of the response to this website and others spawned ultimately from the ISKCON diaspora, but the truth is that popularity and austerity have never gone well together.

Madhava's right, Keshavaji. We are not talking renunciation here. The idea that I have been preaching for some time is that of the sacralization of this world.

After all, ACBSP did give us the tools already: yukta-vairagya, the reality of this world (not illusion/Maya), dovetailing the senses into the service of Krishna and the like.

Consciousness of the personality of Godhead sacralizes our own relationships, which are all a reflection of His. Whenever we experience loving relationships, we are participating in Krishna's love--it is a question of transforming our consciousness.

Because of this, even the most "dangerous" of relationships, the love of a man for a woman or a woman for a man, is also "dovetailable."

Sadhana is important because it transforms the consciousness and makes us able to see how Krishna is present in all relationships. He is present in existence, in consciousness, but mostly in ananda--because relationships are the seat of ananda.

This means that the jiva also has responsibility, because God is also reflected in neediness--even where there is NO love. In other words, where there is a need for love, that is also Krishna--baby Krishna asking Yashoda for milk, Krishna falling at Radha's feet begging for mercy.

This is a little off the usual "become a manjari" philosophy, but that plays a vital role for the awakened bhakta. Because the qualities of love, relationship, kindness, etc., are traditionally viewed as feminine virtues. Cultivating manjari bhava means overcoming the tendencies to power, violence and domination.

We immerse ourselves culturally in Krishna, but that is a meaningful superstructure that interacts with this "this-worldly" ideal. We could call it "pravrtti-marga", but it's not really. Because we are mapping Vrindavan onto this world. Ultimately, though, the inner world is the real one, because this body will die and the phenomenal and temporal world will disappear and leave us with only that.

The culture of separation at that time will be fully compensated. We will really go back home.

Austerity has its uses, like any sacrifice. But I don't think we are talking much about mass marketing--at least not until we find a market. But it might not be as impossible as you think. Remember--Radha and Krishna are the all-attractive Divine Couple. Who is not enchanted by hearing Krishna's flute and Radha's vina?

That's why I say--start with Radha Krishna. They are not the end, they're the beginning.

Pretty Sahajiya, I guess.

One other thing--"consumerism." This is definitely not about consumerism. Consumerism is really the disease, it's a vacuum, an emptiness. This is about meaningfulness, principally through bhakti and human relations. It's about transcending the petty materialism that is really so devoid of meaning. Consumerism is alienating, and when people realize that, they can find some semblance of happiness in this world.

Jesus said, "I come to give life that you may have it more abundantly." That is what Krishna consciousness is about also. In both this world and the next, because at one point, there will be no difference.

This is not to deny renunciation and those who dedicate their lives to lila-smarana, etc. They are the anchors, the Mount Merus, the guardians of the Dham, who make it possible for the rest of us to dream. The dust of their feet will always be our pancha-gras.

That is something we could include in the kit--Radha Kund water and the dust from the feet of a Vaishnava.

I grok where Keshava's comin from. It's the same thing I say on my maui varnashrama site. I've had a lot of vaisnavas writing me and saying "yeah man, that's what needs to be done." Teaching without the caveats of renunciation and fear of sense enjoyment. In the Gita we find a philosophy that is more about enhancing your life with spiritual vision rather then renouncing your life in favor of bhajan. Arjuna wanted to renounce his life as a prince with wifes and wealth, he wanted to become devoted to a life of bhajan. Krishna tells him, " tcha, you know vhat ? uh uh."

I think the methodology that is prevelant throughout the Gaudiya math and Iskcon, ( I don't know about the babaji's ) i.e renounce as much as possible, is exactly as Keshava says, it has a built in limitation. It's axiomatic that the more you teach renunciation of pleasure as part and parcel of your message, the smaller your audience will be. Especially among the wealthy and powerfull and influential. Most people who join Gaudiyaism and take to it seriously do not have much to give up. In the counterculture daze alot of people with wealthy prominent families became vaisnavas, but they had already renounced that life, those times were unique, the hippie culture was all about communalism and renouncing society.

Eventually almost all those devotees from wealthy prominent families went back and took advantage of their families position in society.

Gaudiyaism will always gather a following, even in it's present mode of presentation. These points are what I have tried to teach to Iskcon. Change the mode of social interaction and expectations from each other and newcomers, change the emphasis of your preaching, make it about enhancing peoples lives, rather then renouncing their lives. I know Jagat agrees with this, and you guys here aren't really preaching renunciation anyway's, but like Keshava says, you can't teach newcomers manjari bhava and expect much interest. It's counterproductive. Men need to have Arjuna, Yudhisthira, Bhima, Krishna, etc as their role models. Otherwise your message will never gain much of an audience. What woman will like to see her husband or potential mate hearing about how they are supposed to be feminizing themselves ? They will almost always be against that for their mates.

Dirty Hari and I seem to be in agreement about this.

Does anyone have an opposing opinion?

presenting gaudiya vishnavism en masse

"People speak of love don't know what they're thinking of
Wait around for the one who fits just like a glove...

Speak in terms of belief and belonging
Try to fit some name to their longing

People speak of love..."

Jackson Brown

We can start DAKVA, Dharma Artha Kama Vaishnava Association.

How about MORMON? Moksa-Oriented Ritualistic Movement Of Neophytes?

Hey, I think you guys/gals are getting kind of silly, but I like the way this thread started out. This is what I am in the process of doing. I certainly do not practice austerities or encourage others in that regard.

I do hold a regular kirtan and Bhagavad Gita class weekly called "The Path of Love." Are there any chants or bhajans in English that could be used for such a purpose? I thought to start folks off with the Gita to get them going gradually on that steep learning curve mentioned earlier. Jagat's idea of starting them off with Radha Krishna is interesting. I do discuss them as the goal and object of devotion. Are there any writings that would work with complete beginners to introduce them in an appropriate manner more quickly to the more raganuga aspects of bhakti?

Any advice in this regard would be welcome. Thank you.