the long and the short and the salient - feedback on Moderation Consistency

Madhava's last word in this Moderation and Feedback Topic which is now locked
demonstrates to me that he fails to grasp the salient issue evinced in that topic. It is to do with consistency in moderation. It does not require a very advanced level of incisiveness to get past the cut and thrust and entertaining repartee in that topic to touch base with the salient issue.

I, Talasiga, was directed to to not write prose with "scraggly" line breaks. According to both Madhava and Jagat this was in the interest of forum aesthetics. Fine. Jagat even mentioned that at times he will edit other's posts to correct grammar, in the interests of aesthetics. Fine.

In that topic, two of the protagonists for Jagat's and Madhava's management of this site are Bangli and Nabadip. Fine. J and M do a good job mostly and it is good to support them. However J and M should support their own Moderation image with consistent behaviour. The fact is Bangli is a longer standing member than me and has more prose posts with scraggly line endings but he seems to have escaped the vigilance of the Moderators. Nabadip's posts display grammatical errors. Personally, I don't mind this just as I don't mind Kailash. However, under the Moderation standards Nabadip's grammar should be attended to. Of course it may be a question of degree but that question will not defend the laxity of the Moderation in relation to Bangli (actually Bangli I don't personally have a problem with the way you present your posts).

To top it off Madhava's last post appears to be an attack on those who care too much for the aesthetics of the posts! Madhava also encouragesa greater focus on the type of posts whose content furthers the raison d'etre of this site. Ironically this was my very focus in the Kavya Kona topic where I was discussing misapplied scansion of devotional poetry when, lo and behold, Madhava intercepted with his moderation about scraggely line endings.

And the final sprinkle on the topping is that Madhava sees as problematical the fact that members may be talking too much about themselves. This in a site which encourages members to reveal information about themselves so that a genuine sangha may be established. In fact, some are denied full membership because they do not talk enough about themselves.

Is this really so important? Was it not made clear that this was voluntary and that no one would coerce you into it? That this was a request that is made of everyone, including Bangli? You know that achieving absolute consistency is an impossibility unless we constantly engage in enforcing these kinds of standards, which would no doubt result in alienating the very people we would otherwise like to contribute to this forum.

You have already stated that you accept the basic idea. It was mentioned to you once, in passing, and now you have already wasted a lot of our time and good will, as well as that of many other participants in this forum.

I respectfully ask that you adhere to Madhava's request as a gesture of good will, whether or not anyone else follows, and that you set the example as a man of integrity, being generous in spirit towards those who are less endowed than you with aesthetic sense or intellect.

If you wish to point out to others that they are not adhering to these principles, by all means do so, but kindly do it without this unbecoming petulance. It is frankly starting to wear thin.

Neither Madhava nor I are interested in spending our days dealing with moderation issues.

And please don't tell us that it is we who are being petulant. We haven't got time for such childishness. If you can't see that this is what it is, Talasiga, I am extremely sorry.

I just saw your last post on the other thread. Talasiga, make up your mind. I personally invited you here, and I have made many efforts to show you that you were welcome and that I valued your presence and your potential contribution.

I want to let you know that I still do so, but it is clear that you don't consider yourself to be a contributing or serving member of this community. I am not sure how you see it, but it does not seem to be as one of a group of confreres.

This makes me rather sad, because if this is what it means for you to be "true to yourself" it is a sad testimony. It looks like I was right, "Being you is not as great as being Gaura Das."

So our game, well-played or not, is "Let's all be Vaishnavas." This is the only game in town, so if you don't want to play, don't waste our time.

You cannot address the issues of perceived inconsistencies in moderation by calling me childish, petulant, immature and so on. The emperor may have no clothes and a petulant child may see this. If I perceive inconsistency in the fact that a moderator is complaining about people talking about themselves, then either you address it or you avoid this topic. This is, after all, a Moderation and Feedback topic. I have not attacked you with pejorative adjectives in either this or the other topic. You are entitled to express your experience of my character but you should also address the issues at hand.

Do you find issues raised by "petulant children" tiresome?

I personally think Talasiga is extremely intelligent and capable of grasping complex concepts easily that others generally find difficult. I do think he gets off of on screwing with the brains of others who are intelligent. You won't see talasiga in a heated debate with a dumbo at anytime. He reminds me of some dynamic jnani with a prolific ability to deliver sword-like haikus that simply get under your skin or open your mind. It is an on goin spar with him, challenging at times, a pain in the arse at others, but also full of delight when the sun is shining!

And I understand perfectly Talasiga's point. And as is often the case, it is not without merit. However, I have absolutely no interest in his game, for as you say, a game it clearly is.

I will say it once more, for the last time:

(1) Absolute consistency in moderation is impossible.
(2) We ask everyone to adhere voluntarily to the rules.

Is that clear enough?

Talasiga, this is my last word: If you want to participate in this forum, then find a way to make it pleasant for all of us. If you feel we are unjust, no one is holding you here. And honestly, at this point I cannot say that I will be sorry to see you go.

Believe me, it gives me great pain to say this. I invited you here in a spirit of respect and friendship. I get the impression that this does not mean much to you, as you show absolutely no conciliatory spirit. What I see is an obsession with getting a pound of flesh for having been wronged by a request to format your posts a little differently. If it suits your sense of justice to search for every moderating inconsistency, then go ahead and waste your time. Tell me when you hit 1,000.

I ask you to figure out the purpose of this forum, see if it has anything to do with your own purpose in life, and if it does, try to serve that purpose. It has nothing to do with Madhava or me. And frankly, it has nothing to do with you.

I am honestly getting really tired of these idiotic games.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything, and nobody is forcing anybody to contribute to this site, and nobody is forcing anybody to even ever visit this site. There are plenty of other websites where one can go and complain about the moderators, in fact there are even forums where that seems to be the main topic of discussions. If being a {snip} critic is what one enjoys the best, then this is obviously not the place of choice.

I tend to be patient with members having varieties of issues, but I really do not have time for stuff like this.

Anand, if you have nothing better to do than nag around this forum, please feel free to say so, and we can suggest more constructive ways of spending your time.

You now have almost 400 posts, a grand majority of which consists of one-line comments, complaints and quarrels. In fact, I have a hard time locating posts where you would have written more than a total of one paragraph or five sentences on anything else but a complaint or a quarrel. Think about that for a while.

I am sorry Madhava but under the circumstances my participation has been the best that I could do. My humble suggestion to you is that you just go ahead and terminate my membership.

Yes, I have thought about that for quite awhile now.

I won't terminate memberships unless a member directly requests for the same. We can also just suspend an account, in case someone wishes to have the same account reinstated later on with all the data intact.

To be quite honest, Anandaji, I don't know why you hide your talents. I happen to know that you are quite capable of writing feelingly and with force. Why you want to deprive this site of your capabilities, I do not know.

Though I think siddhanta and scriptural discussions are important, there are other areas to be explored in spirituality. I still don't understand what the difficulty is, but obviously something is bothering you.

You have loyalties elsewhere, I can understand that. If you feel conflicted, I am truly sorry. As I said, if you sympathize with the purpose of this site, make it your own. If you cannot find sympathy with it, then we offer you our heartly best wishes that you find a home for your heart.

I think what is bothering me is that I don’t see how your presentation of Gudiyaism and raganuga adherence is truly representative of Lord Caitanya’s heart. It is a heart thing, I don’t see how you can send people away and think you can go on expecting to approach Srimati Radharani. With a few expertly composed words from your keyboard you quickly give your verdict and a whole individual will be gone, discarded in the name of the “greatest good” of the community. I am not talking about myself but others who have been told to go away in this manner. You are misrepresenting love. That is dangerous.

What is the use of many words to answer such unsympathetic miscomprehension? I am so deeply hurt that I have nothing to say. I hope that you will eventually find unconditional good will somewhere, Ananda, I really do.

Trust your heart...

Talasinga,
You honestly just seem to be nit-picking and are going round in circles ad-nauseum. It's getting really boring. Whats the big deal HEY..?

Anand,
I can understand your need to get away from KB's forum and I know you are loyal to Narayan Maharaja, you should check out purebhakti.net they have a new forum I believe.

I think many come here with an axe to grind from the 'get-go' ..they come in angry coz they know that the Gaudiya Vaishnavas here differ with iskcon/GM/NM and are ready to 'fight to the death' and will fight over trivials rather than siddhanta because they simply cannot..

I am doing nothing but trusting my heart, I am.

Why can't I find unconditional goodwill here? Or conditional.

Talaji,

Have you ever been to Radha Kunda? Last year I was there after 25 years..
One thing that sticks in my mind were the Gaudiya Pilgrims that had come for Kartik and at Radha Kunda you would see them doin dandavat circumambulations around the entire length of Sri Radha Kunda. I myself would like to do that one day. Also you will see the more austere doing dandavat circumambulations of of Sri Goverdhana! quite a feat indeed.

sincerely,,

Pratap Banglilal

Dear Talasiga,

We heartily endorse your effort to establish consistent standards in your postings on this forum. We hope that your good example and enthusiasm for safeguarding the aesthetics and high quality of your contributions will spread to all participants on Gaudiya Discussions.

May your desire to see this forum improve bear fruit. It is heartwarming to see you take to heart the goals and ideals we have set for it.

As moderators, we can only wish that everyone would so rapidly seize the essence of our ambitions and adopt them in such ready manner. We hope that your expression of good will shall be contagious and that others will also be conscientious about what they put on public display.

Everyone: Make your postings a service to Radha and Krishna, an act of devotion, a well-dressed deity at whose feet everyone can offer flowers. This is not just a debating society or a place for intellectual gymnastics, but a place where we can worship the Lord through words and the expression of our thoughts.

It makes our job that much easier to know that people understand and approve what we are trying to do. So, I thank you with all my heart.

At the same time, since you have taken this upon yourself, I ask you to be kind to those who are less gifted than yourself, whose punctuation is less than perfect, or who are occasionally careless. Mercy is as important as justice, especially if we recognize how much we ourselves need mercy, and how pitifully we would fare if justice were the only rule.

Your servant,

Jagadananda Das.

And I add for those who may protest, "I do not consider myself a devotee. I have too many doubts," I say: Your every conscientious act and your every sincere thought or question is also an act of devotion.

tala baba:
Of course, this does not mean we should be laissez faire about concocted, superimposed or defaulted inconsistencies. Souls are polished by intrinsic primary inconsistencies which are foundational to the maya of our existence.

Pratap bangliji:

Bangli,

I meant to write this message earlier but did not have the oportunity. I wanted to apologize specifically to you because you were the only one to come forward and directly try and protect Jagat and Madhava from [what you perceive were] my attacks. I am sorry if by my words about their moderation I have offended you in any way. I agree with you that Jagat and Madhava are 'way cool' and so perhaps I should have not expressed my opinion in the disrupting way that I did. Or perhaps I should have not expressed it at all.

I just want to let you know that there is a bit of a misunderstanding there. It is my fault because evidently I don't express myself clearly enough, but I do not dislike Madhava and Jagat as persons. In fact I do respectful them and am grateful to them because I find that they are presenting an opportunity for devotees to make progress in their understanding of the ideal of our religion. It is just that, on my part, I was zealous in protecting what I think is part of this ideal. I don't mean to criticize them so to disturb their work, but I feel I would like to point it out whenever I believe I perceive there is apparent contradictions or inconsistencies in their work as leaders/managers of this group who, cleary, is influencing many seekers of truth.

I actually want to extend my apologies to all members of this forum for my lousy participation here.

My most humble prostrations to all.

I am always a bit embarrassed and humbled when people apologize like this. It makes me feel as though perhaps I may have been too hard and somehow emotionally intimidated that person. I really don't want to do that. So I also apologize for any contravention of Vaishnava humility or ideal behavior I might be guilty of.

Perhaps I do take this site a mite too seriously for my own good. Perhaps it is for this very selfish reason: There are plenty of opportunities for Iskcon and Gaudiya Math devotees to get together--they have temples, festivals, and various other networks and associations. Similarly, there are plenty of opportunities for academic scholars of Vaishnavism to get together in colloquia or conferences, as well as discussion groups. There are also several websites that primarily cater to blooped, fringe or disgruntled devotees of various kinds.

However, there is not much opportunity for the small number of devotees who are not connected with Iskcon or the Gaudiya Math and do not feel particularly at home in those institutions, and yet feel some connection or loyalty to, or even love for Gaudiya Vaishnavism, who may have an inquiring intellectual spirit based in experience with Gaudiya Vaishnavism rather than purely academic interest, or who are simply seeking a friendly and fraternal environment where their spiritual search can be taken seriously.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I think I do speak for Madhava when I say that we have participated in many other forums over the years--VNN, Istagosthi, Audarya, Nama Hatta, even Saraswata.net, and have become pretty fed up with those who are (1) extremely sectarian in their outlook, (2) who are overly intellectual and argumentative, (3) who use the forums in a very trivial way, like a kind of chat room, as a way of gratifying various kinds of social desires, (4) or who are just plain angry and have an axe to grind, or just want to spew venom, frustration and hate.

Like I say, many of us who use this website are somewhat isolated and this is our Vaishnava association. So we would rather that it was treated with a little love and reverence.

I don't want to kill anyone's natural personality with rules or with too much gravity. I just want to be able to come here and be with people who love Mahaprabhu, Rupa Goswami, Srimati Radharani, or with people who at least admire them, or are interested in them, or are looking for or finding ways to make Vaishnavism meaningful in their lives, or are inspired and want to inspire other devotees to seek love for the Divine Couple and Gauranga Mahaprabhu, in short, are looking for shelter.

We want GD to be a shelter, not a battleground.

That's what this place is for me. I am not a great sadhaka or scholar or great achiever. I am a jiva struggling in this great ocean of samsara and I am looking for shelter in the company of rasika Vaishnavas. I am certainly not an emperor, with or without clothes, nor is that my ambition. And I assure you that if I thought that Madhava was not like me in this regard, I would have avoided this site as much as I avoid all the other forums that have their little emperors.

So, once again, please forgive me if I ever seem overly emotional in defending this forum.

Thank you very much Ananda. I appreciate your remarks greatly.

Your servant,

Jagat.

All of this moderation, discussions on moderation, moderation of moderation, varieties of wrangling and entangling and so forth, has taken its toll on me. I need to get out for a couple of days to recharge my batteries and ventilate my poor brain, and maybe do a bit of that chanting we always talk about. I hope to rejoin the discussions with renewed inspiration sometime later this week, perhaps by the weekend. In the meantime, I may pop in now and then, but please do not be surprised if you don't see me around as much as normally.

Thank you, Anand, for your kind message.

Dandavats. All glories to the aspiring Vaisnavas.

Jagat’s last post speaks to my heart as we share the very same reasoning in why this site is so precious. This is our community; our devotional support system; our home. Just as one allows another in their home with their individuality intact they also hope for a certain amount of sensitivity and reciprocation for opening their home and their hearts to another.

This should be how we view such a cyber community. Membership doesn’t mean we relinquish our individuality or our voice but that we are cognizant, respectful, supportive and loving of those around us. If a certain aspect of our personality or viewpoints tend to disturb others than when in their company we simply are aware of how we express ourselves and try our best to be respectful of their needs and sensitivities.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa