the long and the short and the dotty - on posts and room

from the Kavya Kona topic

I understand you have your own conceptions of what is aesthetic and all that. I tend to look at things like this in terms of general conventions. If you don't wish to follow them, suit yourself, but they exist for a reason.

Talasiga.
Let's not, my friend, a mountain make out of a hill.
Or should I say, guru from laghu, tal from til?
Yet : one who counts as poetry his ev'ry phrase
would surely find prosaic getting nought but praise.

In some bites it is the biter,
In some it is the bite,
And in some it is the bitten
that is the most bitter.

In regards to justification and left alignment, everything here is left-aligned. A justified block of text would look as follows:


Notice how all the words end at the exact same place at the right margin. Nothing in the forums is justified, it is all left-aligned. The following block is left-aligned:


Notice the small flow there in the right margin. That is left-aligned. I trust you notice the difference.

It is not a matter of quantity. However, when rows are broken and the text block looks like this:


The text block looks broken, and gives an overall scattered impression of the contribution. It looks more like stray thoughts than a solid contribution.

Take the notes above as the professional opinion of a (web) designer.

We've given a similar recommendation to a couple of members, for example DH and Tarun Kishor, so it is only fair that I mention of this to you, too.

I would also like to add that making your prose look akin to your poetry devaluates the visual effect that a visible meter in poetry has on the reader. Now it looks as if every other post is a poem in some sort of meter, and eventually one just starts skipping over them as he can't get a quick visual tip on whether to approach it as a witty piece of poetry or a "regular" more information-oriented contribution.

Talasigaji,

Madhava gave no heavy warnings. He only asked that you observe a convention. As moderator, I regularly go into other people's posts and edit them for spelling or formatting problems of this sort. It is a question of aesthetics, which I am sure you can appreciate.

I have never edited any of your posts, as I have respected your quirk. Madhava is an individual person who as principal moderator of this site would like to see that aesthetic standard maintained.

Madhava and I agree on the following. We are irritated by

• Long useless quotes that have little or no bearing on the response. These I generally cut out, leaving a warning.
  
• Short, useless commentaries, such as a smiley. Within limits these are allowed. But members should not abuse.
  
• Cut and pastes that have ragged margins or line breaks, or awkward paragraph breaks, etc. This is what your posts tend to look like.
  
• Posts that have not been carefully reread by the writer. There is an EDIT icon. People should read their posts and do their best to make them presentable. Be proud of what you have to say. Of course, we are forgiving in this area, as some people are not native English speakers, or are lacking in education. This is not a question of prejudice, so I generally try to edit such posts so that other readers will be able to transcend form and get the essence.

If you are writing poetry, that's fine. But, with all due respect, you can write poetic prose without resorting to scraggly line breaks. I hope you will not be angry if I say that it looks and feels like an affectation.

This has nothing to do with any technical issues of length. Once again, it is a matter of adhering to certain aesthetic standards so that visitors here will get the maximum pleasure from reading everyone's contribution. Since we are the moderators, we are the ones who decide subjectively what constitutes a pleasurable forum experience.

Nevertheless, there were no threats of banishment, censorship or anything like that. It was a simple request, perhaps lacking in all the diplomatic formalities like dandavats and straw in teeth, etc. In spite of this, with all due respect, please drop this issue and, if it pleases you, accomodate the wishes of the chief moderator.

Thank you,

Jagat

Though we moderators try to be nice to everyone all the time, we sometimes get cantankerous. Nevertheless, as I said, we have rarely banned anyone on this forum. I think Kshamabuddhi (Sparky Photon) is the only one to have merited that honor out of consistent bad behavior.

It is even rare that anyone passes the 20% warning level. We have no wish to create a censored website, and most people here seem to understand that and appreciate it, therefore they do not abuse the tolerant spirit of the moderators.

Post removals are generally reserved for gratuitous personal insults. And those who insult us are generally those who feel we are too permissive and allow anti-Prabhupada aparadh to run rife. But I guarantee that any anti-Prabhupada statements that exceed simple factual matters, the types of things that are regular fare on Istagosthi, for instance, will not last a moment here. Nor would the Puranjan-style of criticism of Iskcon acharyas.

We consider all living beings to be the abodes of the Lord and therefore the object of veneration. Anyone who chants the Holy Name even once to be worthy of our deepest respect, and those who have served the Holy Name with self-sacrifice to be worthy of our prostrated obeisances. We have no sectarian feeling about these things. And that is the standard we expect of others on this forum in general. Anything that needs saying can be said politely.

Excuse the digression. Your comments about poetry are well taken. We are all subject to our expectations when it comes to form. We promise to take as axiomatic that everything you say is poetry, a true descent of Goloka, where every word is song and every step is a dance.

In my opinion the shape you give to your requirement for full membership is a form of banishment.

From this nicely settled incident about scraggily appearances, surely the moderation can recognize their guests’ (occasional) need for self-preservation.

To serve out a carefully assorted bowl of aesthetic and pleasurable experiences should not come at the expense of gradually stripping a guest of his sense of identity, in my opinion.

You wouldn’t want a community where members would be shaped thorough and through by any one’s particular ruling, would you?

(As far as I am concerned, this needed be said. I hope I am being polite enough.)

I find Madhava's description here totally correct

Anand, I do not understand how any of this is related with requirements for full membership. I believe we have made it abundantly clear that to become a full member, one should tell something of him/herself in his/her profile, just like the other full members have done.

Being a full member is not dependent on scraggily or scribblibyboo appearances. And no, we are not interested in molding the members to a particular shape. As you may have noted, there are several members who do not subscribe to the same conclusions as the moderators, and we do not push them into agreeing with our views or else.

However, I trust you understand that everywhere in the world there are certain conventions according to which things are done. Disregard for conventions breeds chaos. To facilitate mutual understanding and subsequent fruitful exchanges, certain common principles in both the form and the structure of contributions are most helpful.

In this vein, I would also like to ask Anuraag to fix those ragged margins in the content she posts.

Talasiga's style was creative, interesting, in a sense, unique. But now its been killed. Well, maybe not killed, shaped through a little, perhaps.

One who chooses not to be a full member is automatically restricted in his postings. By this arrangement there are good chances that good contributions will not be made. Meanwhile, the apparent grand reason for full membership requirement, which was to filter anonymous posters of a disturbing nature, did not succeed entirely. I would venture to say that it is actually backfiring on you (consider a recent full member who have not identifying herself enough to keep moderators from trying to have to guess her actual gender!)

What all this has to do with squiggly margins? Maybe nothing, but Jagat did mention here that the forum tries to be nice to everyone and that there has been only one (considered justified) case of banishment. I disagree with him. I think that by choosing not to support your full membership system, I have been “politely” banished as well.

As for chaos, how much disarray do you estimate your moderation is capable of bringing in anyone's life?

I think that this will improve Talasiga's creativity. You may have noticed that when I invited Talasiga to come and join us, I specifically praised his poetry and invited him to share a collection of his best things with us.

I know very well that he is a sensitive, artistic type with a deep Radha-based spirituality. I also know that he is independent and stubborn. Did I expect him to be like me and quote lots of Sanskrit slokas? No. I expected him to be himself, as he said in that haiku, being true to himself.

Talasiga prefers to respond situationally with haikus. I will openly admit that I would still like to see something him give something a little more substantial, and I will continue to urge him to do so, but only in a friendly spirit and not with any kind of coercion.

Dear Anand,

You are only too welcome. Yes, the system of "full membership" is not perfect. That does not mean that it is not a worthwhile goal. On the whole, the majority of members here function in an honest and open manner, and those who need to are able to maintain sufficient anonymity.

It is always possible to cheat. We are old enough to know that is the way of the world. On the whole, though, I think that the atmosphere is more comfortable than on most forums of comparable size.

If you choose to use other forums, it is completely voluntary. I don't understand how you can call that banishment. If you can't pay the tiny price of being a little open about yourself, then I hardly think that discriminatory in any way.

You know very well that I would very much value your participation here and the invitation to participate fully is as open as ever.

Ys, Jagat

Yes, salt needs to be used with discretion in seasoning the soup. Thank you for this. I used to be the type who, when playing karatala, had a hard time playing the regular beat and had to clickety-click them in all directions to make it fancy. One day, a friend then pointed out to me that I sounded like Jimi Hendrix who had become stuck in a guitar solo loop, and that one needs to use discretion with specialties to keep the effect intact, sparing it for the appropriate time.

Dear Jagat,

Thank you for the welcome.

Yes, I should be aware that cheating is part of life, but I would expect that you would be experienced enough to count on some of us trusting this universe of yours here to be precisely a sanctuary from such things as easy cheating. Cheating should not be a feature of Gaudiya life too.

You know Talasiga well but others you know superficially are given the very same privileges Talasiga enjoys. How is he to feel special?

Then there are those who have made substantial contributions here but have been less than encouraged to remain. Their obviously intrinsic individual characteristics were deemed unwelcome in the face of the decision to accommodate potential newcomers. How are such dynamics any different than those at the environment these newcomers have already experienced?

Where everyone is accommodated through and through with love, that’s a Gaudiya Vaisnava community.

The obviously intrinsic individual characteristic of any given individual are welcome if the given individual concedes to identify himself. We have had bad experiences with the abuse of anonymity, as it gives one a license to get away with virtually anything without tarnishing one's name. The same has been seen in every single Vaishnava-forum I have ever participated in.

Why would someone want to persistently hide his/her identity? We have already said that if someone has good reasons for that, he/she can feel free to contact the moderators for alternative arrangements for full membership.

It is not a matter of becoming special. It is a matter of becoming responsible and accountable for one's words.

Within what’s been allowed by circumstances I have been more responsible and accountable for my words than you have, for example. (If you want to go tit for tat on that one then we can go tit for that on it). But I am using it just as an example to make the point that, superficial identification does not accountability facilitates. You should know that there is self imposed limitations in anonymous participation, so those who choose to remain anonymous, if not aware in the beginning, soon find that anonymity may be more restricting then full disclosure of their identity.

Why should all anonymous members be seen as troublemakers?

Maybe you should shed off your bad impressions from your experience of other forums.

Maybe you should actually cease to try and be the best forum. What is the merit in being the best when you think the others are so bad? With all due respect to other vaisnava forums out there it is a fact that this forum here (unless I am not aware of another very prominent one) already is the best managed and of the best quality in posts of all. But is this really the goal, to be the best forum? Shouldn’t this be just a vehicle for something higher?

Another thing you should know, it is a fact that as moderators; designers of the direction the community will take, you may make your decisions based primarily on the principle of responsibility. And you then of course expect reciprocation. But there are those who will come here and submit to your management, not because they find you responsible but because they find you special. And of course these kind of people should, in my opinion, receive reciprocation. Whatever way you can identify them. Remember, metal detectors don’t work here.

I don't think that we are going to compromise on the principle. If you feel that you need special consideration, send a PM to either myself or Madhava, giving your reasons.

But I can tell you right now, that NO INFORMATION AT ALL will not be accepted.

Your age, sex, general experience, general nationality, likely give info that you have already divulged elsewhere. Someone who wants to make research all your posts, inquire from others, etc., may eventually be able to build up a profile, learning that "you live in Australia, are a 60-year-old transgendered American male who spent sixteen years serving Vayutyagananda Maharaj by washing his kaupins."

Of course, that latter information you may want to hide, but general information of the sort, "I am a thirty-five year old woman who served twelve years in Iskcon, taking initiation from one of the eleven, whom I eventually left to take initiation from a Baul Tantrik." This is sufficiently vague and yet sufficiently informative for our purposes.

I don't see why newcomers should not be able to orient themselves to an individual by having this information when they read a post and become interested in the poster. Even long time participants often don't interest us immediately, and then say something that makes us wonder whether it is a man or woman, their age or education level. I don't see why this information should not be available.

It has nothing to do with your responsibility.

All relationships are about negotiation, even with Krishna.

I don't say, "First deserve, then desire."

I say, "If you need, do the needful."

And so I am. In spite of you...

Just let us know how we can help.

Lets see, perhaps you can point me to the self-help scanners. Thank you for shopping wail-mart.

Welcome to the Wail Mart! I hear you with a smile:
We have shout-help books in nearly every aisle.
In this hall is a wailing wall, and you see that sign?
That's where you can learn how to make a real fine whine.

I hear a child cry out; its mother gives a squeal,
and says, “It’s time for me to grease this squeaky wheel.”
It’s clear that if you want to learn the wailing art,
you've come to the right place, here at the Wailing Mart.

It is the truth: Momma runs to the child that cries,
And God runs to those who have tears in their eyes.
Nitai brought the Nam Hatta and put on a sale:
The Krishna prem is free, you’ve just got to wail.

Gurus, angels, even God Himself may not come
To hold you in their arms (though they might send someone).
But Guru, the angels, God and the ghosts are One--
They’ll hold your soul so you not only be, you become.

You strip him of his identity and now you want to take his horse too? Very nice indeed.

Actually, I should not have said that of Nabadip, whose general learning, culture and experience place him amongst the uncommon. He is one of the jewels of this webforum, and I would not underestimate his capacity to understand or his maturity to make astute judgments.

Everyone is capable of making mistakes in grammar and spelling, and the great majority are evidently less gifted in their erudition than yourself, Talasiga. That is another of the reasons we have profiles. Not everyone is so self-imbued that they create threads just for discussing themselves. Therefore, we humbly ask them to give little snippets of themselves in their profile, for that gives us a chance to know more about them.

Actually, I believe it was Nabadip's profile that partly led me to ask for more information from others, as I found it so illuminating. Unfortunately, I notice (just checking right now) that he seems to have abridged it somewhat. Out of humility, it would seem. Let me assure you that what I have written above is not in the least exaggeration.

I personally think that young visitors to this site should know that some, like Subal or Nabadip, were formerly Iskcon sannyasis who contributed a great deal to its spreading, that other individuals have PhDs or masters degrees in various fields of study, that yet others have distinguished themselves by long service to Guru-Gauranga and the Vaishnavas. Others may feel ashamed or intimidated because they cannot present a CV that vies with theirs, but that is misguided. Everyone profits from senior association. It's a good idea to know who's who.

As with any tradition, Vaishnavism is to a great extent about respect. We don't mind whippersnappers coming along and challenging the elders or holding them to account (especially coming from the Iskcon environment, where age is as often synonymous with corruption or confusion as wisdom), but we do think it valid that everyone know where who stands.

There is no shame in being who and what you are. The Jagais and Madhais of this world are here to confirm the glory of Mahaprabhu's mercy, so even the Jagais and Madhais amongst us should have no shame in coming forth.

I cannot believe that anyone is so deprived of self-worth that they cannot proudly (or humbly) undergo the kind of self-examination required to resume their situation in a few words. After all, is there any spiritual life at all without honest self-examination? And where is the possibility of spiritually meaningful association without a modicum of such self-examination?

There is no prior qualification for Krishna's mercy. None of us are so grand that we automatically qualify to be called leaders, or automatically so young or unqualified to be ignored. Ultimately it is your behavior that counts.

If you are young and unlearned, adopt the behavior that behooves your status. What shame is there in that? ye ye'dhikAre yA niSThA, sA guNaH parikIrtitaH--"Virtue means knowing where you stand and acting accordingly with resolve." If you are eighteen or twenty, be yourself by all means, but remember that your opinions are green and supple, others' may be well-formed and mature, the product of many years of study and experience--which, yes, often means learning from mistakes.

As to the idea that a profile somehow impedes us from acting spontaneously, such as would be granted by anonymity, this argument has some merit. On the other hand, the opposite holds true as well. I, for instance, have made my identity clear. In fact, since the beginning of my participation in the Internet, I have always used only one identity and never posted anonymously. I have done this out of a sense of self-discipline: I shall try as much as I can to maintain my reputation, for better or worse, and allow myself to be held to account for my words and actions.

If revealing your identity means not acting like an idiot, then I am in favor of it. On the other hand, if revealing your identity means that you are conflicted, this is also positive. How far can living this kind of schizoid existence carry on? We actually do everything we can to protect anonymity--we have said that, as we understand the problem--in order to allow those living in these kinds of liminal situations to explore their doubts and hopes, but the problem of a dual existence is yours and you have to come to terms with it.

We have seen what has happened to other forums, and we don't intend to allow the same to happen here.

Really, come on now...

Cool it I say...why this tug of war ?

We are very lucky to have this fine forum as far as I am concerned...

I say the moderators are wonderful here and the best I have EVER seen..

And we are lucky to have you too Talasiga...OK!

now cool it ..or I'm gonna have to 'Open My Can of Whoop-Ass' on ya..



bangli

Jagat, Madhava's pursuance of the issue regarding my broken lines was driven by aesthetic considerations as was your support of him. If the same vigilance is not applied to the aesthetics of good grammar then my statement to Nabadip that his "scraggly grammar is beyond reproach" is corrrect.

Nothing complex really. Farmer's logic.

Can we read the shanti-vacanam now?

I agree that this has gone on long enough. Talasiga, show some maturity.

Bangli, Talasiga's suggestion is not without merit. Everyone should pay more attention to the aesthetic quality of their posts. But let's not get entirely bogged down.

This thread is now locked.

Jagat, thank you for closing this thread.

I would like to say, and I honestly mean it, that there is something fundamentally screwed up if people spend more time complaining and delving on themselves than they spend in making truly positive contributions that they feel will be fulfilling to the entire audience, not only to themselves.

Yes, truly if everything should be aesthetic, then you should all write only Sanskrit Kavya and employ an average of three alankaras per paragraphs. Come on now. There are things that are easily adjusted, such as the formatting of one's posts. The proper way of formatting I have just explained. If you make a complaint, be ready to teach the way of doing it right. If you have a complaint about someone's grammar, be prepared to teach him English.

Complaints made without the willingness to participate in assisting the object of the complaint in rectifying the issue are pretty much pointless. So, if someone has something to complain about, be prepared to actively participate in rectifying the matter.

Enough said.