Would you die for Gaudiyaism? - Something to ponder.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0...255E401,00.html

Reading above how a British BBC reporter was near-fatally shot in Saudi Arabia, and how he cried to bystanders. "I am a Muslim, I am Muslim, help me!" At this stage no-one knows if he really is a Muslim or was just saying that to save his life, but there have been many elite British converts to Islam recently and he could well be one, considering the slant in some of his reporting and his focus on that subject. In a sense, if he dies, he will have died trying to support the Islamic religion.

I have a friend who grew up in Bangladesh as a full-fledged Gaudiya, living in a temple where all food was offered and his parents were full devotees (strangely he himself is not a Gaudiya, having chosen Shaivism instead). But he told me that during Partition his father was taken by a gang who demanded he eat some beef as part of a conversion to Islam. They held the beef in front of his mouth, and said 'Eat or die!'. He refused to eat, and was, it is said, cut into many pieces...

So he died for his belief, which was Gaudiyaism.

So, something to ponder for us all, beyond all the current buzz over 'Rules and regulation'. Just how committed to Gaudiyaism are we? Would you die for Gaudiyaism?

(Personally and quite frankly, I don't think my faith is that strong. On that basis, I do not think I can claim to be a full representative of Gaudiyaism. Rather I am simply aspiring, and perhaps always will be. I barely know what Gaudiyaism is, even after almost 30 years searching. Some western devotees, disciples of ACBSP, did die for Gaudiyaism, and they have my full respect).

I don't think we should say that if we won't die for Gaudiyaism that our faith is weak. Krishna may want us to comprimise our activity if it means saving our life so that we may find some way to serve him in some capacity. Eating beef although repulsive is not the end of the world and not the end of our life. We may be under captive by beef eaters but escape later and change our diet, so what is the problem? We shouldn't take our vegetarianism as a reason to become proud.

It is an individual choice though so if one would rather die than convert to Islam and eat beef, then one should, everyone is different.

It is not that each and every religious practitioner must be like Jesus Christ and be crucified for his faith. I do not think that eating a piece of meat would destroy one's inner devotion. Just think of the incident written in the "Lilamrta" book on ACBS's life. His parents were strict Hindus, Vaishnavas, vegetarians. But when the doctor said that the little Abhay needs some meat to recover from some sickness, they immediately agreed, without any hesitation or fanatical reaction: "Oh, let him die but I won't give him meat!". They brought some meat from a neighbor right away (even though in the end he refused to eat it). This incident happened in the middle of India, many years before, in the family of Vaishnavas. Nowadays, Westerner converts sometimes tend to be a lot more fanatical. So this story is a wonderful example of how love and necessity and common sense are always superior to rigid rules.

This reminds me of the Shia Islamic debate about "taqiyya" or dissimulation: "hiding one's belief under duress."

Human beings can be surprising creatures, who respond with heroism at surprising times. We don't know when or where we may be called to heroism, or if ever we will be challenged in that way, and the possibility of weakness is always there.

But faith is meant more for life than death, so let's reserve our heroism for really important occasions.

Have to disagree with you there, Jagat, and perhaps all.

There is no more important moment in life than the moment of death. Religion, in its barest essentials, is a way to approach and cope with this moment, and the fact that this moment hangs over us all like the sword of Damocles.

One finds the meaning of life in finding a meaning in death. Living for something means being prepared to die for it at any moment. Being ready to face death at any moment. This is faith.

Otherwise what is your faith? Faith in what?

I have seen the look of utter shock and bewilderment on the faces of those who were not ready for death in their midst. 'Why me? Why us? Why now?' (But why not?) In fact they were the same big followers of Mathew Fox! What use was their 'Creation Theology' at that painful moment? They needed the comfort of an old cynic such as myself, who expects death long before it arrives.

This, I think, is what the Buddha saw in his enlightenment, after his night-long vigil under the Bodhi tree, just as the dawn approached:

Death is born with life! Life is born in Death! ('dependent arising').

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%27depen...le+Search&meta=

All religious talk begins with this, without this all is evasion, hiding. Illusion.

Adiyen-ji,

I think the problem is partly with the example you opened the thread with, where you equated not eating meat to save ones life being equal to dying for Gaudiyaism. Perhaps we're too tired, cynical or lacking in culture to feel the weight of that dilemma in the manner it was presented.

There is undoubtedly something utterly romantic about dying for your beliefs. (As a child I used to frequently daydream about all kinds of heroic situations in which I gave up my life for others. Sometimes I'd get so wrapped up in my little stories--taking a bullet, jumping in front of a truck--that I'd work myself into a state of tears.) There was also much made of a girl at the Columbine shootings who "chose Jesus" and was killed. I think the story was debunked but not before making it into countless sermons.

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."
-- Wilhelm Stekel

Although "what if" is the refuge of scoundrels, What if your friend's father had lived? Perhaps his son would have been taken to Vaisnavism, perhaps he would have become perfected himself?

I'm not discrediting his sacrifice but death is not the means to attain Krsna and if by living one can advance ones own consciousness and of those around him, why not take the sensible path? The question of the depth of our convictions is interesting though. Breaks into rendition of the BeeGee's "How Deep is Your Love" (and hopes death does not come now.)

Great quote, Braja.

I agree with Adiyen in the sense that death is crucial. I often find myself in deep consciousness of death's inevitability and randomness. This occasionally results in a sense of freedom, at others, one of intense pessimism.

Death means truly that "all is vanity." It reduces all our greatest achievements to nothingness. So what attachment should we have to life itself?

But this feeling, as Freud showed, can be called a tendency to death, or death wish (thanatos), which we are accustomed to calling tamo-guna. The motivation for accepting death is therefore not necessarily noble. It may be a welcome release from life's difficulties--a kind of false respite or liberation. False because the cycle continues.

Admittedly, choosing life in a cowardly fashion may be a worse ethical choice. What if we up the stakes--let's say it is a question of repudiating your faith or seeing someone else die, a loved or respected one?

And, as Braja insinuates, what exactly do we mean by faith? "Faith" and a set of beliefs are not necessarily the same. So to die for the sake of a set of dogmas or doctrines seems trivial.

Acknowledging the fact of inevitable death does not equal with being willing to throw away our lives for any idea or religious dogma. External regulations, having no direct contact with love or devotion, like "don't eat mushrooms" etc., are - in my eyes - not worth dying for. Martyrdom is a sublime thing, provided that it is not driven by pride and ego.

While agreeing with Adiyen's comment about the importance of death in our life, I also was under the impression that his earlier post equated refusal to eat meat with Gaudiyaism. To me, bhakti is the essence of gaudiyaism and bhakti is a state of consciousness. One can give up one's life in refusal to eat meat in a Krsna conscious way or one could do anything to keep one's life in a Krsna conscious way. It seems all too difficult to determine anothers state of consciousness at the time of their death. Motivation can be understood to some degree through actions (though that can be tricky too), but after that I leave the reading of consciousness between Krsna and His devotee. I find it sad sometimes the conviction that people speak with in determining where a soul has gone after death. We hear "they died in this dhama on this day and therefore went BTG" or alternately "they gave up K.C. and it may take lifetimes..." Really, I appreciate death because it is a moment of utter isolation where all the talk of others ceases and one embraces a reality known only to you. Hopefully that reality includes a whole lot of KRSNA!

uttiSThata jAgrata
prApya varAn nibodhata
kSurasya dhArA nizitA duratyayA
durgaM pathas tat kavayo vadanti

The Veda Purusha gives beneficial instruction to the pious in the form of these words: “Rise up! Awake! Seize the benefits of this human form of life and become fully conscious! This path is a razor’s edge, sharp and difficult to tread.” (KathaU. 1.3.14)

Puri Maharaja's expanded translation: “Stop worrying about your material sense gratification! Give up all anarthas, or sources of harm, and become awake to your true identity. Approach a great personality and get his blessings and then apply yourself to knowing the Lord. This world is like a razor’s edge, meaning that it brings great suffering, and is difficult to tread, for without God consciousness, noone can traverse it. Great sages seek out and glorify the Supreme Brahman, through which the entanglement in material life comes to an end. Therefore you must approach such a great soul as your spiritual master and learn the art of devotional life, for without it no one can cross over this material existence.”

I have to question the soundness of the man's decision to die rather than eat beef. After all, our faith tells us that our sins are expiated by chanting the mahamantra, so what really is the issue? He could have just complied externally while at the same time adhering to his faith in his heart. Then, the sin would not even be his own, but rather that of his oppressors.

Here is another scenario: A woman is caught in a flash flood while driving her car and manages to escape into the rushing water and grab hold of a tree trunk floating by. But then a tornado literally whisks her off of the tree trunk and into the air. At that moment she can have one of two thoughts, either "Divine Couple, do with me what you will, my life is in your hands" or "Divine Couple, why me? I don't deserve to die in this way. Rescue me!" That is a test of devotion rather than one of faith.

The point is perhaps not whether we are ready to die, but are we ready to sacrifice, and what are we ready to sacrifice?

I know that many of the people who are most devoted to Krishna consciousness have sacrificed a great deal in terms of material happiness. I can't speak for others, but I know that my personal situation, materially speaking, is nothing compared to what it would have been if I had followed the normal trajectory of someone with the opportunities I had as a young man.

Throughout my life, I have made my priority Krishna consciousness. Even when I left my sannyas and got married, went to university and so on, I did so with a spirit of surrender. I knew that I had taken my sannyas to the limits of my ability and that I had other kinds of service to render in this lifetime.

By Sri Guru's grace, my immediate situation is not starvation or even discomfort. Though I have no social security or savings, I have a comfortable home, a car and most of the other comforts of a modern North American life. So I cannot complain, even though anxieties about money are never far away. When compared to the life 90% of the world has to live, I am well off.

My greatest good fortune is that Krishna allows me to eke out a living by using my main talent--a knowledge of Bengali, Sanskrit and Gaudiya Vaishnava literature. I have the luxury to be able to reflect on these texts and I can simultaneously share the jewels that I find therein and the fruits of my reflections with others on these forums. I am thus able to stay in contact with those who have dedicated themselves to finding Krishna for the greater part of every single day.

I also steal a part of my time from my family to work on the Gaudiya Grantha Mandir, for which I get no money or honors, and little acknowledgement. Today, as I was typing some of Chaitanya Chandrodaya Nataka, I felt Kavi Karnapur smiling down at me and putting brownie points in a cookie jar for me in Nitya Nabadwip. When I collect, it will be reward enough.

There is so much more that I want to achieve--the completion of the GGM, translations that need to be finished and published, a more active role in public, etc., that I despair of doing it all in this lifetime, especially when family pressures are there to succeed materially.

But I am not an expert materialist. Let me always serve my Guru, Gadai Gauranga and Radha Gokulananda, and may they always take care of me. This is my prayer.

Jai Radhe,

Jagat

After that rather self-indulgent post, I would like to say a word about our Madhava. The man is still so young, and yet he has already done more service to his guru than most of us will do in many lifetimes. Krishna has luckily blessed him with so many talents, but his greatest talent is his commitment to the Supreme Goal. The Lord has blessed him with a companion who complements and supports his talents and dedication. When Krishna comes to fetch them, he will take them away together on the back of Garuda. They will barely notice the change from this world to the next.

And I also want to say that our Advaita has also made service to his guru and to the lotus feet of the Divine Couple the be-all and end-all of his life, unswervingly. The Divine Couple will surely take care of him and he should have nothing to fear, for they will never forget what he has sacrificed for them. Any obstacles will surely disappear and one day he will be recognized for his true worth. He should not be anxious about this.

And may I also say a word for my godbrother Gadadhar Pran Das, whose Dham-nishtha is comparable to no one else that I know. Whose vision of Gaur Gadadhar and whose intimacy with Them is unparallelled. He sees Them constantly and that is as sure as kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam is the most quoted text in the Bhagavatam.

These people I know, and I know the sacrifices they have made and the obstacles that they have faced, but so heroically that even their weaknesses have been transformed into heroism; yet there are so many others, here and elsewhere, who have similarly given themselves in both weakness and in strength to Gauranga's Names and His prema dharma. Mahaprabhu has already blessed them and will continue to bless them and all who come in touch with them.

May they all continue to be blessed. May they never allow other desires to blemish their commitment to their service. And may countless others be blessed by their association.

Jai Guru ! Jai Gadai Gauranga! Jai Radha Gokulananda ! Jai Bhakta Vrinda!

And if someone says, "Who are you to give blessings to these great persons?" I say, "You are right, I should seek their blessings."

And yet, out of love and appreciation, and in all humility, I pray that our Ishta grant them all auspiciousness.

nirmaJchayAni vidhubhir mukha-bimbam asya
nIrAjayAni ca rucaM kanaka-pradIpaiH |
sampUjayAni pada-padmam asu-prasUnaiH
pratyAdadAni karuNAm api deha-lakSaiH ||10.16||

I perform arati to the orb of Gauranga's visage with the moons,
and with golden lamps I perform the lustration to his beauty.
With the flowers of my life air, I worship his lotus feet,
and I return the mercy he has shown me
by sacrificing a hundred thousand bodies for him.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Jagatananda - thank you for the beautiful and well written post. We are nothing if we do not honor and cherish those Vaisnavas that allow us their association, readily give us their blessings and assist us in our own aspirations in developing our heart, mind and soul as servants of Gauranga, Sri Radhika and their beloved Vaisnavas.

Though we all have many differences in upbringing, spiritual experience and even mood and/or practices we should never allow those differences to over ride our common aspirations. I pray that the Vaisnavas of this board will continue to share their experiences with me and encourage me in a life of great struggles.

As far as the original question : Would you die for Gaudiyaism... we desire to live and die as a servant of Sri Radhika and the Vaisnavas. When thinking of this question I am brought to the current world affairs where many give their life for jihada and aspire to die as martyrs for their God. Without debating the circumstances and context that these words are being spoken about currently it is indeed a heroic thing in most respects.

Yet I would say that in most regards this is not our mood as followers of Rupa. Again not to say that one may not have this mood when it is a fit situation but it is certainly not our intent or goal. The highest intent is to use ones mind, words and heart in the service of Gauranga, Sri Radhika and the Vaisnavas whether it be in service to the deity, Sri Guru or, in rare or extreme circumstances, to give our life if that is the will of our beloved.

In the case illustrated by Adiyenji... well it is admirable that one is so staunch in their belief that they would rather have "Death before Dishonor" but I wouldn't say that "No" was the only answer one would give as a Gaudiya. If that answer would take away the individuals ability to serve the Vaisnavas and further develop their aspirations to serve Sri Radhika than it isn't necessarily an ideal answer. Much of what makes such a circumstance a "right" or "wrong" as a Gaudiya is the intention behind our action as our intentions are our ultimate sacrifice and measure of desire. If a rich man gives $1 Million and a poor man gives 1 rupee there may be no difference in the spiritual benefit as it is the intent of why we give that is the important factor. Such is the relevance of Adiyen's example: If giving an answer is done with the heart and mind fixed on the service of our beloved than it is indeed a worthy cause.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Would you die for Gaudiyaism? No. Would you die for Krishna? Yes, if it would truly serve Him more than living.

The only reason I could think might be worth dying for, if not for some unexpected intense flames of viraha, would be sacrificing oneself in place of a dear vaishnava, if his life were in imminent and unavoidable danger. However, I find the idea of dying for isms merely for the sake of being recorded in the history as the man who went by the book plainly pointless.

Lately I came about to see the inmemoriam list of devotees who left us the past years and have to say it made me think about whats really important.

http://www.iskcon.net/inmemoriam/

The father of Adiyen's friend is a hero, no doubt, though I would personally have been less heroic and more pragmatic. Mahaprabhu told Sanatan Gosvami: 'deha tyage krsna na paiya paiya bhajane' - You cannot get Krishna by suicide but by bhajan'. And Shiva told Parvati 'sariram adyam khalu dharma sadhanam' - "The body (with the soul in it, that is ) is the primary cause of sadhana." In the case of the Bangladeshi Vaishnava I would have swallowed the beef, though it would have made me retch, and if they had held on for a week I would have swallowed it for a week too. There is redemption for any sin through harinama, especially when one is under duress, and suicide, by being stubborn and fanatic, is a sin just as well.

Jagat, I read your eulogy of this humble self in this thread. I am undeserving, since I am really a great offender of the Vaishnavas, especially of your good self, and more of a Guru drohi than a Guru bhakta. In return let me commend you for all the service you have rendered to the Vaishnavas, including myself. Let adversaries not turn into enemies, especially since we western Vaishnavas are such a tiny little community. We can agree to disagree in peace.