Shaivite sadhus and ganja - Just wondering...

Dear devotees,

RAdhe RAdhe!

I'm not sure if this is the best place to put this question - since it doesn't *really* deal with Vaishnavism. Just yesterday, a friend of mine watched a travel show on Nepal, and came running to me to say that followers of Shiva smoked ganja! ( I have been trying for years to convince this person that pot smoking was BAD - and now he seemed to have his validation that smoking pot/ganja was ok, because you can use it for spiritual reasons..aarrgghh! )

NOW, what I'd like to find out, so that I can better explain this to my friend, is, why do so many Shaiva sadhus smoke ganja/ hasish, and are there any scriptural allowances for this practice?

Looking forward to your input,

Your servant
Sudevi dasi

Taking Ganja in a variety of forms is very popular in India generally. So is drinking tea and coffee, chewing betal 'Pan', smoking, and the occasional more furtive drinking of alcohol.

Restrictions on such things are not as common as they are in the west. Indians generally regard alcohol as much more of a social evil than ganja. There are campaigns to outlaw alcohol in India- it is prohibited in some areas - while there appears to be no restriction anywhere against Indians taking ganja or hashish (foreigners, on the other hand, might be arrested for same!).

Shaivite and possibly some Ramanandi Vaishnava sadhus certainly smoke ganja openly. The juice of marijuana or hashish are also very commonly available mixed with milk or yoghurt, in which form it is called 'Bhang'. Be careful what you drink in India! Even local shops sell this preparation.

I know one shopkeeper in Braj who is stoned all day every day. I was also visiting an ashram where there was a Ramanandi type of sadhu, not sure of his exact akhara, who was continually smoking ganja (not openly, he used to hide somewhere outside to smoke). One day the monkeys broke open his stash of marijuana leaves and spread it across the floor of the ashram. It was bizarre.

In my experience, Gaudiya sadhus do not take ganja at all. In this they differ from the general North Indian sadhus. It is not an explicit prohibition, perhaps because of the general ambivalence about ganja in India society, but Gaudiyas clearly are averse to intoxication, while tea drinking is seen as relatively harmless and a matter for the individual.

I agree with you about the bad effects of Ganja taking. In my 30 years watching some of my close friends -even some initiated disciples of Srila BV Swami Prabhupad- give their lives to the drug, I have seen it has a very destructive effect. I would certainly discourage anyone from its use.

But India is probably not a good example to discourage people in this regard.

The shastra says, bhakti-bhang narah - people should devotionally take bhang. Read this thread for more information.

The Gosvamis are the role models for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas and there is no account anywhere of them taking any intoxicants, including bhang, charas or ganja. One may take these things are not, it is your risk. I think it is rock safe to follow the Gosvamis, though.

I was in Nepal too, three times. The Shaiva Sadhus who smoke ganja or charas are also life long celibates and I saw them sleeping naked in the snow. Let any hippie here on his velvet cushions, on his waterbed with his young girlfriend and his color TV set imitate that first, before he imitates those Shaiva Sadhus by smoking dope -

naitat samAcarejjAtu manasApi hyanIzvaraH;
vinazyatyAcaran mauDhyAd yathA rudro’bdhijaM viSam
IzvarANAM vacaH satyaM tathaivAcaritaM kvacit;
teSAM yat sva vaco yuktaM buddhimAMs tat samAcaret

“Not even within one’s mind one should imitate the Lord without being a lord oneself; such foolish behaviour leads to destruction, as it will if one would imitate Lord Shiva by drinking the poison from the Milk-ocean. The words of the lords are true and one should act accordingly. An intelligent person should only follow conduct that is consistent with their guideline.”

phalena paricIyate

(Did I spell that correctly, and would someone here be able easily to determine which bhAgavata verse is it from?)

(something like:) "Judge by the fruits."

In the old days when I used cannabis, it invariably had a tAmasik influence on me, although mixed with other modes. It took weeks after quitting to experience the clouds apparently fully dispersing.

It is not from the Bhagavata. It generally appears as phalena phala-kAraNam anumIyate, and is referred to on several occasions in the works of Jiva Gosvamin (such as Gopala-campu, Krishna-sandarbha and Brahma-samhita-tika) as well as in Krishnadasa's Caitanya Caritamrita in the narration of Rupa Gosvamin meeting with Mahaprabhu and His associates in Puri (3.1.91).

There are many such phrases, such ardha-kukkuTI-nyAya, zAkhA-candra-nyAya, ajA-gala-stana-nyAya and so forth, for which I do not think there is any specific origin. Perhaps this one appears in some nyAya-zAstra. It is pretty much common sense though.

ekA bhU-ruhayor aikyam ubhayor dala-kANDayoH |
zAli-zyAmAkayor bhedaH phalena paricIyate ||

The Shali and Shyamaka trees look the same, their leaves and twigs are the same in color, etc. You can only know which is which by their fruits.

This verse apparently comes from a work known as Dharma-viveka by Halayudha, written in the 11th century.

I haven't been able to find the source of the other version (phalena phala-kAraNam anumIyate).

Thanks, Madhava and Jagat.

No wonder that ever since someone told me phalena paricIyate is in the bhAgavata, I haven't been able to find where!

Holy Bible
Luke 6: 43-44

For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor a bramble bush gather they grapes.

kAkaH kRSNaH pikaH kRSNaH ko bheda pikakAkayoH
vasanta samaye prApte kAkaH kAkaH pikaH pikaH

A crow is black, so is a cuckoo, what's the difference?
Come springtime, a crow is a crow, and a cuckoo is a cuckoo!

-Subhashita

Taking any intoxicating herb is expressly forbidden for anyone taking initiation, and is one of the things a disciple is supposed to agree to (samaya). Cf. Haribhaktivilasa 2.169.

Lets try and be fair here..

A little ganja smoked with respect can have some benefit, again with respect and absolute moderation, the way in which native americans would smoke with the pipe!

also needs to be a good sattvic quality, not any schwag!

I have a really crazy HBV edition as you know, so could you quote the Sanskrit text to make it clear?

mAdakauSadha-sevA ca masurAdy-anna-bhojanam |
zAkaM tumbI kalaJjAdi tathAbhaktAnna-saGgrahaH |
avaiSNava-vratArambhas tathA japyam avaiSNavam ||169||

The inclusion of masur dal, spinach, pumpkin in the same breath as intoxicants admittedly reduces the force of the injunction.

Indeed, but as long as we don't find accounts anywhere in Bhakti Ratnakara or Caitanya Caritamrita of Sanatan passing the chillum to Rupa behind the bushes of Vraja I think we are well on course of establishing a conclusion!

Or, indeed, finding it among the 64 items of bhakti in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu...

And would also be quite a sight to behold.

Advaita Das can you give a source for that verse ?

Since ganja has innumerable medicinal effects I would like to see in a bona fide sastric citation an injunction saying it is poison, can you provide that ?

If not then whenever an acarya quotes a verse about not imitating Shiva by drinking poison and refers to ganja use, It is their own interpretation, in celibate traditions this would appear to be done to discourage the use of ganja due to it's powerful aphrodisiac effect, clearly it is is not a poison as all studies done by reputable researchers have shown, otherwise why would Shiva take ganja ?

Why would Shiva take a poison for recreational use, the drinking of the poison ocean is not for recreational use, so saying ganja imbibing is the same as Shiva drinking poison is not 100% accurate, it is meant to highlight a philosophical point, not that Shiva drinks poison for recreational use and that we are restricted until we become like Shiva, then we can and will want to drink poison as well, this is of course ridiculous, but it shows how convoluted logic can create foolish conclusions.

Whenever someone uses that Shiva/poison quote they add the ganja part, they say that taking ganja is like Shiva drinking poison, it doesn't bother Shiva, not that ganja is poison, rather the effect of ganja i.e. sexual excitement, will be the effect and unless you are like Shiva you will be affected.

So many times people take this to mean ganja is poison, rather it means do not take intoxicants and think you will not be affected in an unwanted way (sex desire), unless you are on the level of Shiva who can be lusty and not have it be a bad thing because he does not need to practice regulative principles, nor do any other pure devotees.

In my view at this thread (scroll halfway down), I show that ganja is most probably an ingredient in soma, at the health section here, I give some advice and give data showing some wonderful medicinal studies, so clearly Ganja is not a poision and we do a disservice to those who suffer when a cure is at hand if we discourage it's use in the name of our religious beliefs.

Among vaisnavas who used to be in Iskcon, ganja use is extremely popular, as anyone who associates with a wide range of ex Iskconites will tell you.

So unless you can show where ganja is specifically said to be a a poison we can understand that the prohibition among renunciative milieus has to do with it's very strong aphrodisiac properties, not because it has negative effects other then that, because all other effects are in fact positive if taken in moderation.

Which verse?

Haven't mentioned poison anywhere, I just said I failed to find it in the pastimes of the Six Gosvamis or of any of Mahaprabhu's parshadas. Did you find it in any GV shastra or carita? And if you did, can you quote? Who is talking about medicine here anyway?

This one.

p.s I added more to my post above after you posted.

SB 10.33.30-31



Where have I said that? Your Guru said that, not me.

I wasn't refering to any specific person about Medicinal use, just that the culture of a taboo against ganja is bad, Satsvarupa has problems that can be dealt with by ganja with better results then he has had so far, but the culture of Iskcon is that ganja is poison, thereby inhibiting him from getting relief, etc.

You just did exactly that, you quoted the Shiva/poison=ganja rhetoric.

It would appear that when various acaryas have used the Shiva/ganja/poison rhetoric it is always used in a way that is an admonishment against imitators, to me this has to do with the culture of ganja within the tantric and sahajiya traditions.

Ganja is used to enhance the effect of "becoming" Radha or Krishna or Shiva and Shakti, they then have sexual relations under the influence of ganja, this is done because ganja increases sexual drive and sensual perception in general. These people are imitating, and it is this activity which seems to be the reason for this kind of rhetoric i.e. taking ganja and imitating Shiva is bogus and likened to drinking poison, not that ganja is poison, it is the imitating of Shiva that is poison, specifically in the tantric/sahajiya traditions.

OK Shiva, look, I dont believe anyone here is buying the products of your massive brain damage. I never made the link between poison and ganja, your Guru did this. It is indeed the imitation of Shiva which is poison, like you said. Furthermore, instead of wasting our time and your rare human birth with conjuring up all these insane philosophies, isn't it better and more simple and frank to say: "Look folks, I am a loser, I cannot follow the regulative principles, and instead of a heroic preacher who saves the conditioned souls, or alternatively a qualified brahmin, I am just an old American hippy who wants to enjoy material life in the form of sex, drugs and rock n roll?" That would relief your mind and conscience greatly...

Is it working for you ?

Just went through the nine Gaudiya commentaries on this verse and found nothing about ganja.

Is this kind of speech what you guys want to be representative of your clique ?

I give some views and then AdvaitaDas does his usual little song and dance to create enmity and discord, it seems disagreeing with Advaita causes him to go on a rage alert and He feels his place is to belittle and demean those who would dare to exprees a diference with him.

I ask the moderators to keep this kind of perjorative discourse at a minimum even though such a great mahatma such as Advaita seems to be able to ignore accepted etiquette.

If I were to say such a thing I know I would be censored.

Shiva, for the millionth time - we are not a clique, but a group of individuals with all different Gurus and opinions.



Where is the enmity or the rage, man? I am trying to help you. You wanna stay here in the material world?



Would you have any reason to say such a thing? I am neither using nor promoting the use of drugs.



Still waiting, Shiva.....

I am afraid that I am in agreement with Dirty Hari here. We should be able to defend our ideas with conviction without resorting to insults.

We have to permit free speech. There are many people who feel that ganja smoking is beneficial in one way or another. It is not an adequate response to quote scripture and bash people over the head with dogma.

Nor should anyone be condemned for failing to live up or disagreeing with their own gurus. If you like you can point it out, but most of us have come to disagree with our teachers in some way or another. We must have tolerance for disagreement.

As long as any individual is civil, all who interact with him on these forums should extend the same courtesy. I have seen no untoward behaviour from Dirty Hari in the last few weeks, and certainly nothing that warrants these kinds of aggressive comments.

Advaitaji, like it or not, you are identified as a representative of the "raganuga" or "traditional" camp. We have stated many times on this forum that there is no such thing, no "clique," for those of us who frequent this site have varying viewpoints about Gaudiya siddhanta. Nevertheless, I have seen it far too often that people who are otherwise interested in deepening their understanding of Gaudiya siddhanta come to this site with an open mind and are quickly alienated by your harsh, aggressive and superior attitude.

Those who would otherwise find this an attractive site are hurt by your outspoken criticism of their gurus, which I also find objectionable and unbecoming of a Vaishnava. I myself and others who are favorable to the traditional Gaudiya lines and post here regularly who resent that we are tarred with the same brush. What you do unfortunately reflects on this site and on us as moderators, participants and defenders of the Vaishnava ideal of behavior.

As moderators, we admittedly allow you a great deal of liberty out of respect for your services to Vaishnavas, personal affection and longstanding relations, but this opens us up to repeated accusations of unfair bias. I have to admit that this accusation is not unfounded.

I have tried to avoid writing this letter by repeatedly offering mild hints and suggestions in the past, but I have to insist on no uncertain terms that you henceforth show more respect for others, especially those you disagree with.

Please try to understand my position. Thank you,

Jagat

Have I told Shiva to shut up or so?



Can you, or Shiva, then come up with the evidence from our acaryas or GV shastras?



Isnt it? tasmacchastram pramanam te (Gita 16.24) - 'Therefore the shastras are the evidence/authority' (Sri Krishna said that). And Jiva Gosvami has written his Tattva Sandarbha for nothing? And can you show me the word dogma in the Gosvamis books?
What about the first of board rules? We should make our point by quoting from the foundational Gaudiya Acaryas.

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1. Philosophical and theological matters shall be ultimately resolved by referring to the foundational writings of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. The Visitor shall not insist in public that the view he presents is appropriate unless he presents reasonable evidence to back it up.



Is that so? What about Guror avajna, the third namaparadha? SB 7.15.26 ("Considering the Guru to be ordinary makes one's learning useless as the bathing of an elephant")? What about the fate of Ramacandra Puri?
yasyAprasAdAn na gatih kuto'pi (Visvanatha's Gurvastakam) "Without the grace of the Guru you are not going anywhere."



Which aggressive comments? Where? Are you not shouting to your kid when he runs over the street without watching? Are you helping Shiva, or indeed anyone else, by tacitly approving his drug use?



Is it my fault that people cannot give up generalising and pigeon holing? Does everybody have to echo you then? You just admitted that everyone has an own opinion here. If you want me to toe your line and mimick your style you really make people lump us all in.
And if you are really concerned about your reputation, what do you think 'they' will say when you are defending breaking the principles such as the use of drugs? Should I want to be tarred with the same brush?

Thank you Jagat.

As for your comments Advaita prabhu, it is not necessary to live every moment of your life and have all of your activities fit into a narrow defined parameter that can be found in a gaudiya tika, while that may be your perogative it is not the absolute standard created by God to live as for all time and for all people as such, and to judge all others to be bogus or inferior because of the use of ganja or other intoxicants is missing the point of regulative principles in the first place. They are temporary restrictions placed on those who practice sadhana for a specific goal, they are not enforced restrictions across the board on everyone for all time, otherwise we would have to question the wisdom of God's creation of ganja in the first place, if it has no place it would not be found in vedic culture so prominently.

In fact the use of intoxicants is there in the spiritual world, it is part of Vraja culture and human culture for a purpose, that is to relieve stress and increase sensual enjoyment, although it's use is restricted in Sadhana practice, still it is a part of the Vedic lifestyle and always will be.

I am glad to see your concern over my spiritual well being, let me assure you I have some experience that leaves me with how you say... no worries ?, that may not be apparent to you, so don't worry about me.

Shiva, at least you, like me, believe in something. That is good....

All I am saying, Advaitaji, is that most of us had enough of the narrow understanding of Krishna devotion in Iskcon. There are enough troubles in the world due to fundamentalism without us adding to them. If you have left one thing to become anti-that thing, you are still in duality.

RAdhe RAdhe!

Dear devotees,

I'm sorry to see that this has become a little out of hand. All I really wanted to know is what are, if there are any, the scriptural references - Vaishnavite or Shaivite that permit ganja smoking by Shaivite sadhus? Or is it just an 'innovation' introduced by the sadhus themselves to help in achieving that 'higher state?

What spiritual effects they trying to achieve with the ganja smoking and has anyone by any chance observed anyone actually suceeding?

I'm not and have never hinted at ganja being *good* and personally feel it is as much a danger to our body and mind as alcohol or any other intoxicant.

So, anyone with more information pertinent to this subject, please post! And thanks very much to those who have already shared their information and knowledge on this subject.

Your servant
Sudevi dasi

Everything's normal. Try this link: Shiva's philosophy.

Praise the Lord! Whew, what a breath of fresh air... With respect Advaita prabhu, that fresh air was smelling like the same old stagnant air I remember in ISKCON with that heavy dogmatic preaching of yours. You even use sastra to back up smashing people? Do you think you are taking the "rules" of the board a bit to the extreme?

I think this post is downright mean and the poster should be asked not to call others losers or speak of their brain damage.

Also I think you should get off your high horse and leave the moderators and management alone. If you dont like the standards they set then buy some webspace for yourself and run a perfect forum.

bbri

Hi jijaji,

I miss you, you dont come to the namahatta anymore

bbri

Advaitadas how do you feel about sick vaisnavas that use ganja for medicinal purposes? In your opinion is their sadhana doomed?

Some people cant eat food without vomiting unless they have followed it by some ganja.

Some people have MS and cant get around as well as you may be able to and therefore they may need ganja to get out of the wheelchair and associate w/ devotees.

Im not starting with you but I wonder if you have any first hand experience with this as I do.


haribol,
bbri

Hey thank you bbri...

I'll make a point to stop in and check out the scene!

I tell ya..these two dudes in this photo crack me up...

http://www.exoticindia.com/product/HP44/

Just to set the record straight I was initiated in 1978, by a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami who later disappeared from everyones radar, although I had rejected him in 1981 when I joined up with the Sridhar Maharaja sangha for a short time, the "guru" was obviously (to me) unqualified, at that time there were no other kinds of vaisnava associations and I just happened to be there when the Sridhar Maharaja ashrama started, after listening to Sridhar Maharaja's tapes (there were no books) it became clear to me that He was someone I could trust, although I never was initiated by him.

So thats it with the "public vows".

As far as disobedience goes, I don't think it has anything to do with vows, to me it has to do with conscience and with integrity, I don't put any weight into the idea that someone is bound for life to a vow He makes, in fact I see any kind of vow to follow a proscribed lifestyle as nothing more then an extra incentive to a neophyte to help him make progress in developing the education and realization necessary to transcend any kind of regulative renunciative lifestyle, in fact that is what the Gaudiya position is, giving up sense enjoyment in order to focus on transcendence so that you can enjoy sense enjoyment in God consciousness.




Well it depends on whose opinions you care about, the right wing conservatives in the world (non gaudiyas) will be on your side if you are against ganja, but everyone else will not, in fact they will lump you in with the right wing fundamentalist/ignorant crowd.

My vision is that Mahaprabhus mission to distribute to a wide audience is best served by knowing your audience.

Who is most likely to be attracted to learning indian philosophy ?

Right wing conservatives who want to keep ganja illegal or liberal progressives who practically worship ganja or at the least see it as being a positive thing in many ways ?

The question you raise about the perception of others or of reputation is valid, the real question is: who is it that you are concerned about ?

Anyone who is anti ganja is either someone who is allready a gaudiya vaisnava, or they are right wing conservatives who 999 times out of a thousand will consider ganja to be the least of their negative concerns if they happen to come across your teaching mission.

Whereas people who are actually interested in learning indian philosophy will find the anti ganja position to be a turn off and most likely it will be the cause of derision, the emphasis on sexual renunciation also will produce the same effects on the same people.

So why would you care what other renunciates within the gaudiya family think about you ?

I think we should be more aware of what our reputation is among the non vaisnavas, especially the progressive liberal mass of people, these are the people whose opinion I believe we should care about.

In fact I am all for the political championing of the ganja legalization cause in the name of our religious rights as hindus, to me this would create an enormous amount of good will and interest in what we stand for, of course they cannot then find out that we live a culture of stigmatizing those who want these things.

So in my vision the big picture is more important then vows or reputations among renunciates, the big picture is all about bringing people into the vedic fold, Dharma rather then demands of strict submission to renuciative values is how I percieve the mission of Mahaprabhu to be best served.

It's all about creating a comfortable situation that will be attractive to the mass of free thinkers and progressives, this is in fact what vedic society is, it's a social setting where there is opportunity to develop at your own pace, Dharma and the Vedic Culture and Sadhu Sangha are what I see as being of primary importance.

Fear of a bad reputation among renunciates or right wingers ?...feh.

Your analysis is well done and acceptable, common sense. Even in the late sixties many became Vaishnavas, in one hand the beadbag with japa mala in the other hand holding a joint. You are right, people have to be approached on that level they are stuck. But does that mean that a guru has to do the same to show he is able to understand the particular level of a neophyte? If this would be true nobody would have joined Prabhupada, since almost all of his disciples were taking drugs before, all kinds of drugs. Rather Prabhupadas strategy was the higher taste psychology. If you chant the holy names your soul experiences more pleasure than sex and drugs and you get free from an expensive entanglement. Sex and drugs can easily take away all of your income. BTW how you finance your costly lifestyle? After all there's a saying, one vice rarely comes alone...

It's expensive as long as it is illegal, so that is not the issue.

As far as renunciation being superior to non renunciation of material enjoyment, go ahead and preach renunciation, we allready see where that leads.

My vision is of a more inclusive vedic approach, the narrow renounced approach will appeal to a tiny section of society, who then after a while give it up and then often end up ridden with guilt, for it's time and place it was sufficient, this is a different day and age then the 1960's and 70's, as we have seen what started out as a vibrant fast growing phenomena gradually leveled off then began to shrink.

People like to blame this person or that problem, not me, I see the essential problem is presentation to the public and then the expectations and demands made on the participants, the emphasis on renunciation as the end all and be all of a persons life and of being an absolute necessity for everyone, is countrproductive and will end with the present situation continuing, do you really think things will change for the better within the current intolerant demanding paradigm


If that is your thing then go for it, I would rather do things differently

This is not very helpful if there are no sources referred to. That is, if it was your intention to offer this as a sample of the bhang & Shiva connection.

While the connection of Shiva and bhang in scriptures requires the knowlege of shaivite scriptures, like shaivite Tantras and Agamas, of which most of us have minor knowlege, since we are vaishnavas (personally I don't know them at all) , it's fairly well known fact, that bhang is used during the Shiva's worship by his followers. For examle, see this abstract of medical scientific work from Gujarat:


I have a very little acquaintance with shacta tantras, where use of some intoxications even prescribed for worship, but this mainly concern alcohol. For example, Maha Nirvana Tantra, Chapter 11, says:

I would just like to say briefly where I stand on this subject, as this forum currently seems to be undergoing one of these potty periods, which as we have seen in the past, takes over forums of this type from time to time. This too shall come to pass, so for those who have negative feelings about pro-pot propaganda, I would ask you to be patient and start other threads that are more in line with your own preferences. yahi bhi nahin rahega.

First of all, I would like to say that politically I am with Shiva on most of what he says. We are currently having elections in Canada, and here in Montreal we have a political party called "The Marijuana Party" (led by the snazzy sounding Boris St. Maurice). I think that the so-called war on drugs is a stupid misguided waste of taxpayer money that has no chance of success, and that the intelligent thing to do economically is to legalize and tax marijuana. This would also allow the medical use of marijuana. I am also liberal on most other drugs, though I would not legalize them, but treat addiction as a health rather than a crime problem.

Second of all, I agree with Shiva that drugs (especially hallucinogens) were a part of many of our pre-KC culture. For our generation, their role in bringing us to KC consciousness cannot be denied or circumscribed. Hallucinogens broke down much of our resistence to the foreign, the spiritual and the esoteric. So though I am not saying that drugs are a necessary prerequisite to KC, I am saying that they are not necessarily a negative preparatory step and may even have some limited benefit. For others, it may even have a longer term usefulness.

There are many kinds of people in the world, and experimentation with drugs may contribute to artistic creativity, which has a relation to spirituality.

As such, I don't think that drugs of any kind are in themselves absolute negative conditions to Krishna consciousness itself. This is a little more complex, though I have said this before. Think about the famous brahmin and prostitute story: whose mind was fixed on Krishna?

Having said all that, however, I am not in favor of integrating marijuana into individual Vaishnava practice or community. At this point in my life, I personally find the idea of inhaling smoke or being in a smoky room, or of being stoned, to be completely undesirable if not revolting. So, from the personal point of view, I neither recommend nor condone the practice. I think that a sattvika and disciplined approach to life are the most conducive to spiritual advancement.

Still, I expect that many "fringe" Vaishnava communities will grow up where practices such as this and also more liberal attitudes to sex will be prominent. My attitude towards them is that as long as they are not aggressive in the promotion of their "discoveries," there is room for sharing aspects of community with them, such as hearing and chanting, etc.

Here is the bottom line: If someone chants Hare Krishna stoned, or trips out on the Deities, that person's consciousness is still being somehow transformed to take on "the shape of Krishna." In other words, a samskara is being created that ties that soul to Krishna. But in the long run, I tend to think that drugs produce negative physical and psychological consequences that are best avoided for anyone wishing to pursue spiritual life of any kind.

I didn´t intent to bring any sources. My intention was just offer a image about this connection

I could not agree more with you.

Dear Brian, this is a sidetrack. Shiva is not sick, he is using drugs not as a medicine. Does he have MS? This is an excuse for sense gratification. Sickness has nothing to do with his philosophy of enjoyment. Remember Jayatirtha? Reminds me....

1. Where are 'right wing conservatives' and 'left wing liberals' mentioned in the Gosvamis books and in the Bhagavata? I have never heard of this in India, or in any Vaishnava shastras. Please quote your sources. The only sources I know of this duality you mention are mundane western magazines and papers.
2. non Gaudiyas will be on my side? That means that all Gaudiyas will support your smoking of pot ('everyone else will not')?
(Even) Jagad has already expressed his disapproval of pot in this thread, so who is 'everyone' then?

Generally I find this forum is getting filled with mundane conceptions of liberal and conservative, right and left. It starts looking like a western political election campaign instead of a spiritual forum. dvandva mohena bharata (Gita 7.27)- "this is the mundane illusion of duality". I have never thought of my allegiance to the Gosvamis as being either left or right wing and I cannot see the connection at all. Haribhakti Vilas prohibits pot, so now Sanatan Gosvami is a right winger? I find that ridiculous. Without wanting to become arrogant (again), it would be good if those who constantly use these terms study a bit more in the Bhagavat and a bit less in mundane political newspapers.

How do you know I take ganja ?

I never said I did.

How do you know I am not unhealthy and don't need to take ganja ?

How do you know what my purposes are in promoting ganja... oh wait...Doh ! Thats right I have been very vocal about my reasons.

Remember the SNL Dana Carvey Church lady Sketch ? Read this
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/87/87fchurchchat.phtml

In America we have what are called Bible thumpers. That is a derogatory word that is used for fundamentalist Christians who refer to a Bible quote in all conversations having to do with anything. They use their version of the Bible to try and enforce their beliefs on others.

If you do anything that goes against their verse quoting instructions, they tell you that you are serving SATAN !

These people are the objects of ridicule in America by everyone but other fundamentalists.

We shouldn't create the same vision of ourselves in people's minds in the name of authenticity, otherwise our presentation serves to create a situation where people will find our religion to be the Hindu version of the Bible thumpers creed.

Where are the time machines that would make your point valid ? Since we don't live in the 16th century (at least I don't) and in fact live in a society comprised of non gaudiya vaisnavas, it might be a good idea to understand your audience, then again if you don't care about an audience why aren't you in Radha Kunda or a cave somewhere ?



If people use their brains, then yes they will support my position.



Well guess what swamiji: everything isn't about you, if you can't understand the concepts of left wing or right wing, conservative or liberal in terms of reaching out to the non gaudiya section of the world (99%) that doesn't make everyone who does understand automatically beneath your vision of proper or right and wrong.

No one is telling you that YOU have to take ganja, yet you are telling everyone else what they hAVE to do in order to be right with God.

Look my man, if you want to practice and believe as you do, good on ya !

But I don't take my marching orders from the Hari Bhakti Vilas, nor any other book, I see the books by the bona fide authors in the disciplic succession or the sruti as serving a single purpose in terms of esoteric dogma, that is to elevate your awareness to deal directly with the supreme at every moment.

So as far as doing what these books say, well all I can say is they are there for your benefit, don't think you can use them as weapons to enforce your vision, especially on me, I have my own guide and I don't need people interpreting what someone wrote for neophytes, to me.

Capisce?

I remember Jayatirtha well and respect his version of the Gita quite a bit. In fact the first devotees I met were his and I love them vey much, we are forever connected..

I was jus wonderin how you felt over these issues. Thats whats going on in Canada I dont know what Shiva is doing or what his story is. I ment no disrespect

respects and ganlands,
bbri

LOL. I miss that sketch.

There are two ways of looking at everything, no matter where you stand. Basically, there are two ways of knowing -- jnana and vijnana. One part of the brain is rational, the other is intuitive. Through books and rules, etc., we try to form a rational understanding--even of the irrational. Through chanting, meditation, loving relationships, poetry, the arts, we cultivate our poetic or religious understanding of the world.

These are often, correctly I believe, identified with masculine and feminine modes of being.

vajrAd api kaThorANi mRdUni kusumAd api |
lokottarANAM cetAMsi ko hi vijJAtum arhati ||

The external world is governed by mostly masculine considerations. The inner world by the feminine. However, the truly healthy state of being is a state of equlibrium, where both ways of knowing and being function in harmony. But ultimately, if we are to favor one attitude over the other, it is the forgiving and generous mood of Radha rather than the harsh law of Talon, or vidhi, or Nrishingha.

When we talk about right and left, we are merely using these terms as a handy shorthand to indicate broad ways of interpreting our world and determining how we should deal with it.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

At this point in time I have to agree with Advaita in regards to how relevant all of this is on Gaudiya Discussions.com as well as attempting to equate everything with a right or left wing.

As an individual I would prefer a society that legalized use of ganja, regardless of the reason for us. I would prefer a government that looked at drug use and drug abuse as an unfortunate incident and addiction as an unfortunate medical issue as opposed to a criminal act. I have never partaken in any form on intoxication and never will. Along those lines, from a political perspective, I am about as far “Left” as it gets especially considering the political perspective of most aspiring Vaisnavas in the West.

My thought on how to best address these issues from a social/political perspective is based on what I feel would be most effective on a global scale. This doesn't have much relevance to my spiritual life as my spiritual pursuits and aspirations. To say something should be legal doesn't mean I would ever partake; again one aspect is global while the other is based on ones desire to be a servant of Gauranga, Sri radhika and the Vaisnavas.

However, if I want to talk about these issues I would probably go to a political message board where the other participants are there to discuss such issues. However I find myself at Gaudiya Discussions where I hope to converse and share about the spiritual legacy given to us by the Goswami’s and their followers.

Personally I found some of Advaita’s comments to be much too aggressive and rough. However his point is relevant in that our discussions should be centered on the Goswami’s teachings. If ganja is the discussion than speak of it terms of their teachings otherwise it would be better accepted and more widely appreciated and discussed at a message board which such topics are a part of it’s central theme.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I will have to disagree.

Why is it wrong in discussing the effects of preaching ?

If we present ourselves as representing Mahaprabhu to the public, it would be the intelligent thing for us to be aware of what will cause our audience to either accept or reject our religious message.

If this is to much out of the realm of a discussion at a Gaudiya forum, then I apologize.

If we think that these are irrelevant topics, then what will happen if you are part of a teaching program and you are questioned on these topics ?

If you answer the wrong way in their eyes, the heart and soul of your message will be dismissed as the babbling of ignorant fanatics.

Is this a topic for discussion ? I believe so if you are planning on teaching to others.

Of course if you think this will never come up or don't care that people will reject the whole package if it comes with demanding restrictions and culturally incorrect views, then you may find such discussions as wastefull.

We need to be intelligent in our presentation if it is to be successful, if we think we will succeed at teaching others while presenting the most strict vision as possible, we need look no furthur then ISKCON to see the results. Read some of their lectures by the leaders, it is all about the "evils" of enjoyment, the "evils" of sex or the material world as misery and everyone trying to escape pain, what kind of person will take that kind of approach seriously ?

Those who are materially impoverished or suffering in some way.

The same goes for presenting Mahaprabhu to the public with the caveats of renouncing ganja, the mass of people who enjoy ganja will automatically reject your message, why make an issue out of a non issue.

Instead if we tell them the truth of ganja being a holy herb used since ancient times as the holy drink soma and bhang, the drink of the demigods etc, this will have the effect of creating an intense interest in the rest of your message.

We shouldn't become bound by ideologies which will defeat the purpose of our preaching, this is something which should be discussed, or we can follow the paradigm as it is and continue with the status quo of being of no consequence to the world at large.

We need to present a positive view, the negative approach has a limited audience that will be accepting, the positive method of teaching harinam sankirtan lila as an enhancement of, rather then a restriction on life, is the correct method for this day and age.

In the book "The Turning Point", Fritjof Capra give us a interesting discussion about this subject puting the racional in yang and intuitive in yin concept. He also says that we need a state of equilibrium, represented in the Tao.

I'll have to agree as well. Granted, we need to be aware of what's going on in the world lest we become like a certain boodistributor who heard the news of her lifetime when he learned a couple of years back from a man on the street that there was no more Soviet Union. However, what I would really like to see is direct parallels between such topics and gauDIya-vaiSNavism, to make them relevant for all.

= = =

Shiva, it sounds from your posts like the grand majority of world's population smoke ganja. I'm afraid that's not the fact. Granted, I would personally prefer to see people favor ganja to the exclusion of alcohol, but as representatives of the way of bhakti-sAdhana we need not encourage the use of either of the two.

Madhavaji,

Is there perhaps one other aspect of the ganja and/or alcohol debate that hasn't yet been considered here?

As devotees, we generally want to create an environment favorable for our sadhana and bhajan. Not only does ganja not create such a favorable environment, but advocating strongly either for or against it will tend to be a disturbance -- especially if by our advocacy were are advocating breaking the law.

I know that many of the first Western devotees had a strong antinomian streak, which was fostered by institutional corruption. But isn't this an anomaly among Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

Certainly there are times when it's proper to get "in the face" of the Kazi (or his modern-day equivalents), and make our feelings known.

But overall, if something is not essential to our bhajan, and it happens to be illegal, are we likely, as Vaishnavas, to want to risk the disruptions that would come from breaking the law? I don't think so.

In the abstract, I think it's fairly clear that ganja is less harmful than alcohol, though it's also clear that the ganja-lobby downplays the very real negative consequences of using ganja. So if we were the rulers, we might well legislate that ganja could be permitted in carefully controlled circumstances, while alcohol would be forbidden except in very specific medicinal contexts.

But we're devotees, not lawmakers. If we live in a democracy, we will probably cast our votes in a pro-ganja, anti-alcohol direction. But if we live in an autocracy, our votes won't be asked for -- and yet we will still continue with our bhajan, undisturbed by the fact that ganja remains illegal (in most circumstances, anyway).

There are plenty of others who are preaching the glories of ganja, or the evils of alcohol. What is our unique contribution to public discourse? Surely it is not our position on ganja. If we take a position on the legalization of ganja use, we will attract a certain segment of society, while alienating another segment.

Far better to simply preach the glories of Mahaprabhu and His message... and let the issue of ganja take its rightful secondary (or tertiary, etc.) place.

I agree that as gauDIya-vaiSNavas we should not, as representatives of our religion, not adopt or propagate views on current political issues, except when such issues are crystal-clear in the light of our theology.

While I agree on your assesment on how such policies might alienate a certain segment of the society, it escapes me how in the early days of ACBS in the West people went so directly against their cherished habits in taking up Krishna consciousness. Or was it seeing it as another trip to take that induced them onwards? Granted, there was powerful spiritual influence there, but the fact that it primarily influenced a certain segment of the society must speak something of strong social qualifiers as well.

Ganja is more or less legal in my country. I dont see all those legal smokers going BTG with it though.

I do not think that those who do not support the legalization of drugs should be immediately labeled as "right wing" persons. I could not be further from being a right wing man, and at the same time I would not vote for legalizing drugs. I have seen much too many people chanting their usual mantra "OM marijuana is not addictive SVAHA" while getting strongly addicted to it mentally, giving up their jobs, starting to live in a dreamworld, not taking care of their family's needs and often taking up illegal ways to make money for their daily dope (remember, its not addictive!). One more thing: those who die of ODing also started with marijuana one day.

It was not proper to call Shiva a loser because of this habit, but its also not proper to propagate drugs under the flag of AC Baktivedanta Swami, an extremely strict teacher famous for his aversion to all intoxicants, including completely harmless things like tea or chocolate. It is simply cheating, like the book distribution techniques. But yes, one can do it. One can do anything. And reap the consequences.

I myself like beer and drink a glass of it every now and then. But I am here to tell you I would never make a homepage advertizing "spiritual" beer drinking with a photo of the Six Goswamis, or create a new ad: "Gösser: The Bubbling Spring of Vrndavana".

A few weeks back there was a thread about mixing sex and bhajan. I guess these things always lead into freaky directions. Chant japa while having sex, do arati while flying high, etc. As always, we should try to find the middle way between conservativism and liberalism. There must be a limit, or else one day someone may come up with the idea of doing arati stoned and naked (considering himself a true follower of Prabhupad, of course, as this is the best way to sell even the most moronic idea in the community of devotees).

I dont buy that. I think you are making a broad generalization. Gateway drugs are tobacco and booze, this is D.A.R.E. and DEA propaganda.

Can you become physically addicted to pot? NO. can you become physically addicted to smokes and booze-Yes!


.02

bbri

Just a thought,

I think Advaitadas-ji has a good point in the sense that Holland, his country, is one of pioneers to open the door for drugs, but it did not solve any problem, perhaps just the opposite. Holland has accumulated experiences on this matter that other countries do not have. If compared to others westerners, nowadays, Holland people would have a much more clear idea of the process than others like from USA and Canada that are just happily waiting at the beginning process of its sanction.

I do agree with Madhava that of pot and booze, pot is the lesser evil and it would be better to outlaw booze instead of pot, but in the end neither of them will bring anyone BTG.......

What is the word from Vedic Dharma ? Was ganja legal or illegal ?

We know the answer.

Wasn't Arjuna being chastised for not wanting to take on the illicit rulers ?

Disturbance to whom ?

I don't know if you live in america or keep up with popular opinion, but here in the US of A essentially you have right wing christians who are against ganja supported by the corporate state machine for economic reasons, EVERYONE else more or less is extremely pro ganja, this is my experience, the mass of people are very pro ganja.

Advocating ganja would be seen as heroic by the mass of americans, for instance whenever I watch a television show where there is an audience if someone mentions ganja the crowd erupts in cheers, this is the mood in america.

In america the mood of the populace for the most part is extreme resentment against the government for ganja illegalization.

If you stand against ganja as sinful [which is the opposite of vedic civilization] then you make an enemy of the mass of americans, yes the right wing christians will be on your side, but they will hate you anyways for worshiping satan.

I don't know what the mood is elsewhere but this is the american situation.



I refer you to the first post in this thread.



This discussion was started by a person asking how to answer someone who was rabidly pro ganja and how we as vaisnavas should deal with that when confronted by someone.



This is my point, we alienate people if we take a stance that goes against their experience i.e ganja makes them feel good and "spiritual", why preach against ganja when it clearly is part of traditional vedic culture and by denouncing it you will appear as a fool to so many ?



I have allready stated that if you are a bhajananandi then this issue is moot, if you are part of a teaching situation this issue will come up, if you take the wrong side of the issue in the name of whatever then you will create unnecessary doubt in the minds of your audience, who almost always will be pro ganja, at least in america.



This is the feeling of many vaisnavas but it is not accurate, ganja has "very real negative consequences" ? What would those be ? Besides increasing sensual pleasure and sex drive it has very positive consequences, it has a very positive effect on a persons mental state, and innumerable medicinal properties, the propaganda against ganja and "negative consequences' is nothing more then hearsay, there is no documented negative effect anywhere.

For a person who is trying to renounce material enjoyment then he/she should not take ganja, but that is not a negative effect, it is a positive effect that can disrupt a renunciates bhajan, if we take this as our standard of judgement on ganja in our teaching mission then we will limit our effectiveness to people who are attracted to a renunciates lifestyle.



It will alienate the section of society that will be most likeley to be our only audience that will take our message seriously. Srila Prabhupada made around 10,000 disciples who gave up their lives because they were living at a time when radical departures from the norm were seen as an exciting experience, this is no longer true.

In fact from my experience [a lot] most of Prabhupadas disciples today take ganja, [If I take this from my experience among hundreds of his disciples who I know and extrapolate], So in reality they gave up ganja for a time then went back to it.




Why not ?

If taking a stand politically will generate great interest whereas if other wise there wouldn't be a great interest, why not take a political stand ?



If you think that making any plant illegal is dharmic then you may want to rethink that, in essence we make God's choice illegal, we take a position against God if we make any plant of God's creation illegal, period.

If we want to play God then good luck with that, if we want to support the asuras in their attempt to demonize ganja, well good luck with that, I'll take Mahadeva's side any day of the week, I wonder whose position is the auspicious position ?

Vaisnavanam yatha Sambhu...

It is a mistake to think that people are "pro" ganja. There are many reasons why people are fed up with the nonsense of trying to stamp its use out, filling jails, hiring thousands of extra police officers, for what? To drive it underground, creating huge underground economies. To be fed up with the complete irrationality of it all has absolutely nothing to do with being "for" the drug itself.

But I think that a Rastafarian branch of the Hare Krishna movement could definitely play a role in its overall advancement. A bunch of stoned (talented) musicians chanting Hare Krishna in new inventive ways--I think it would have a positive effect.

The point is: Since remembering Krishna is the important thing, even those who chant aided by the psychedelic juices of pot will develop a positive predisposition to chanting and the Vaishnava culture. Then, if they are fortunate, they will come to a sad-achari guru. But even if they don't, their existence is a better thing than not.

No idea exists in a vacuum. There may, somewhere, be a "pure" form of something, but for one "pure" there are a thousand variants. As something becomes a part of general culture, it combines with so many other elements. Purists might think this is bad, but ultimately, they too are benefited.

This is not my experience, in my experience ganja is extremely popular among the youth and among the baby boomers*. i.e our audience.

If you have ever been to a social gathering of average people inevitably ganja is passed around, everyone partakes joyously, this is the reality in america.

* baby boomers- people born in america after world war 2 up until 1960, these people are the ex hippies from the 60's and 70's.

We obviously move in different circles.

Yes that is correct. I believe the “pure state” is at the pure state of mind. For example, the ideas behind the illegal use of ganja is in itself a no pure and contaminated version of why and for it is suppose to be the real use.

So now, after so many years of marginal status ganja became impure if looked from its social impacts. However, even with the attempt to give it a right place in society it has to pass through the congress as a medicine that might help ant-depression, insomnia and so on. It is not giving its pure form and respect anyway.

The Devas and saints might have a better version, perhaps.

For about 3 years I worked for NORML and we had a store that sold products that help one pass a urine test. We sold 30-50 of these each day. Thats 350 units a week, 1225 a month and 14,700 a year. Buyers were lawyers, cops, firemen, all workers from all walks of life. Therefore I would say that much of the population in my experience in the US is "pro". At least in Cleveland Ohio.

Jagat, considering how your nation has a Marijuhana Party I would say "many" must lean to "pro" or else there would not even be a movement.

Why did I work there? Not because of pro pot but because of pro freedom. The freedom to choose What people do in their own time behind closed doors is nobodys business.

bbri

This was a PM sent to me.

I dont think anyone likes it when people talk behind the back of others. Please dont include me in a knitting circle of gossip and mud slinging.

thanks,
bbri

So is this how people interact with one annother here? We act nice in public and then gossip in the background?

I`m outta here, have fun Advaitadas for I have more important things to do than gang up on someone or even JUDGE them for that matter.

Thanks for the time I was here

PS Jagat you promised to send me a book in return for sending you Jayatirthas gita. I would either like the book returned or a different title sent. Thank you.

Over and out,
bbri

Speaking purely on demographics america is (gallup poll) 46% born again christians, or at least that is how they describe themselves.

12-15 % of americas population is over 65 years of age.

Surveys taken have varied results, studies have shown that surveys on ganja use in america are consistenly showing ganja use to be approximately half of the real use, this is due to people not responding to the poll or lying. Studies have shown that of the people who do not respond [12-25%] almost all do not respond out of fear, i.e they indulge. Then there is a large percentage who lie out of fear.

Recent surveys show that 50 % of college students use ganja, near the same for high school seniors.

Among post college people the numbers in official surveys are around 8-9%, but these numbers are low due to non response or false response.

So taking into account the number of born again christians, the number of old people and the number of false respondents or non respondents we get a good idea of how popular ganja is in america.

around 175,000,000 people between the age of 18 and 65

almost half are right wing born againers,so we can narrow that to 90 million

If we double the 8-9% due to studies showing us this is probably a good indicator
we get close to 20 million.

Problem is there is close to 20 million college students and 20 million high school students in america, since close to 50% of each in surveys report ganja use that alone is conservatively 15 million.

On top of that these surveys are provably unreliable and biased to give a much lesser result.

So we would have to conclude that use in america is probably somewhere in the 40 million range, since students alone comprise such a large sector and it's well known that the baby boom generation use is very high.

So we are getting close to half of the non right wing christian population who use ganja.

The half that doesn't use ganja are pro ganja legalization, we can tell because in surveys the numbers are around 72% of total population (2001) in favor of decriminalization, and 41% (2001) in favor of legalization, the 30% in favor of criminalization are going to be right wing christians and old people for the most part.


My own experience among a wide range of people from entertainers, to students, to professionals, to vaisnavas, to new age types, to artists, to blue collar is that ganja is extremely popular among the kinds of people who will be attracted to indian philosophy.

Go for it, then. We will watch with interest.

Would like to see some dharma-zAstras cited on this, or any scripture for that matter. Any chance?

Yes it was legal back then, but then so were many other things that would be completely out of place in the modern age, such as getting children married, having six wives, and so forth.



Over-indulgence in ganja will make you end up in a psychosis. I've seen this personally, so don't tell me it isn't there. You can read more for example in here.

I believe this is why the sender of the message was not specified.

I do not think it is reasonable or realistic to expect that whatever one says to another person will never ever be discussed elsewhere without explicit permission. We all discuss all the time various things, and discuss the things we discussed among each other.

If you drink too much water you will die, if you take too much of anything it is lethal.

Who wants to make a law that in effect takes a postion as superior to God ?

If God didn't want ganja then it wouldn't exist, this is a simple principle, those who oppose this principle are in effect saying that they would arrest God.

We should not oppose something that is clearly vedic and popular among our target audience, what good is that attitude ?

Anywho, my belief is that ganja is made into soma, which is worshipable.

My whole point is that the popularity of ganja among those who will be interested in indian philosophy is growing and will continue to grow, regardless of laws or anything else, if we approach this in the proper way it can be of help to your teaching mission, thats all.

In my last year in India, I experimented with ganja and found that the primary positive effect it had on me was that it plunged me into a state of heightened self-criticism. I was able to look at my situation from a different point of view. It also intensified certain devotional experiences.

Overuse, however, led to diminished benefits. I eventually found that a few moments of "high" were followed by lengthy periods of lethargy, discomfort and general incompetence. (Like one guy I heard, who said, "I used to get high on speed. I would write all night and end up with 25 pages of garbage.") It might help with the 1% inspiration, but it is a positive hindrance when it comes to the 99% perspiration.

There were social problems also, especially when in the society of non-users, as the frame of mind is quite incompatible.

On the whole, the experience was highly disruptive. I am in the habit of accepting the positive from all my experiences, that is why I do not denounce its use. But it is certainly not a place that I intend to go back to.

I think that perhaps used "sacramentally", i.e., in certain controlled situations (like Hopi Indians and psyllocibin), it would be more beneficial than used indiscriminately as a social or pleasure drug.

My understanding of Jayatirtha is that he used LSD every single day. LSD is a powerful drug, which I believe he first starting using sacramentally, but used too often, one's motives become suspect, positive aspects diminish while the negative ones increase. This leads to a downward spiral leading to destruction.

There is a strong illusory quality to the benefits of drugs. But what these hallucinogens in particular do is they shake you out of your psychic rut. In that they have a definite value.

Human societies have always known intoxication. To think that it can be suppressed is folly. In many societies, intoxication has definite links with spiritual searching. This function should be given a certain respect and an honest attempt made to understand how this can be so.

However, recreational use will never be the same as spiritual, so my recommendation is that any spiritually oriented society that makes use of cannabis or other hallucinogens should be very careful about possible abuse, because countereffects are inevitable and will be magnified with time.

This philosophy really is a bit off.

If God didn't want people who molest children, he wouldn't have created them, and so forth.

God created a human being endowed with intelligence with which to discriminate what is befitting and what is not, and expects us to conduct ourselves accordingly.

I modified my previous post on statistics to give a better breakdown.

I think the child molester comparison is strange, God didn't create child molester seeds, God did spend time designing and creating the ganja plant only to have it made illegal by humans ?

Fools rush in...

How about mosquitos? That's the usual example for something that surely serves no purpose except evil.

Let's say use and abuse is possible in almost everything. Ganja is no exception.

Oh yes, and HIV. Or ebola. Or plague. Did God spend time designing and creating them only to have humans persistently create vaccines in an attempt to eradicate them?

That link Madhava gave about cannibis psychosis, it reads:

I do know God created ganja as a cure for disease.

God creates some things to dole out Karma, humans create the desire to engage in sinfull acts e.g "child molestation'.

You cannot outlaw ganja and think that it is what God intended, God created ganja for human recreational use and as medicine and as a religious sacrament (soma),
at least thats my story and i'm stickin to it .

Had a chat with him the other day?

Shhh.

-INCOMING MESSAGE FROM THE BIG GIANT HEAD-

ALWAYS AND FOREVER.

END MESSAGE.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

Mysteriously He surely does! Hopefully, one of these moves turns out to be a blessing, before He changes His mind...

Only Goura saves!

Yes the Divine is capable of contacting us directly...

this is grace right..?

That is jubilee; ecstasy...

However, as the Supreme Autocrat, He does whatever pleases Him.

Right?

And rightly so indeed..!