Deities vs. Dolls - Attitudes towards the arca-vigraha

Never underestimate the charm and beauty of these devotional dolls!

from http://www.dollsofindia.com/mirabai.htm

Never underestimate the loss resulted in taking God and His devotees to be subjects of self-serving playfulness.

Hmmm.

"The pancaratriki formula for training persons in devotional service is temple worship, whereby the neophytes get the opportunity to learn devotional service to the Lord. Maharaja Pariksit also used to play with Krishna dolls in his childhood. In India the children in good families are still given dolls of the Lord like Rama and Krishna, or sometimes the demigods, so that they may develop the aptitude of service to the Lord. By the grace of the Lord we were given the same opportunity by our parents, and the beginning of our life was based on this principle."

"Uddhava used to play with dolls in the form of Krishna, he would serve the dolls by dressing, feeding, and worshiping them, and thus he was constantly absorbed in the play of transcendental realization."

"So Mira appreciated. Her life is also very excellent. Her father gave her a small Krishna doll to play, and she developed love for Krishna as husband."

"Maharaja Pariksit, the grandson of the Pandavas, was from his very childhood a great devotee of the Lord. Even while playing with dolls, he used to worship Lord Krishna by imitating the worship of the family Deity."

ACBSP.

Care to elaborate on the "loss" you speak of? It seems to have more to do with Puritanism or Islam than Vaisnavism. Even misplaced sentiment for Krsna is better than dry abstention.

I am speaking on the principle that there are those who take pleasure in things resembling God that are actually not the full experience of God. Thats fine too. God reciprocates accordingly. But there is a degree of loss of substance there.


The personalities you mention as examples, they are not ordinary people. If ordinary children play with fire, they get burnt. Playing with Krsna dolls from childhood may just be relegated to a cultural thing and result in cheapening, later, the experience of seeing God as unique and apart from all other kinds of temporal plays. That is possible too.

(This comes in installments because I am busy with housework right now.)

Also, note that I said playing whimsically with God "and His devotees."

We have heard that those who find high inspiration in seeing and manipulating the murti form of the Lord while disregarding His devotees, are Kanisthas at best. If someone says, "I am playing with my deities and I am having lots of fun", and someone else then questions that "maybe you would have just much fun playing with ordinary dolls" and then the first person takes offense and blesses the one questioning that she can go to hell, there is definitly a questionable regard for the third person in the equation.

Vaishnavism is about Vaishnavas too, not just Vishnu.

Braja,

Any news on those books yet?

I would have never believed I would actually be splitting posts off from the tit for tat thread! Anyway, if you need to continue with the themes of the posts left over there after the split, do it there, and here you may develop the ongoing theme of a proper attitude towards the deifty form of the Lord.

Yes, that is called sadhana, practice, an aspiration--"nothing is pure in beginning" (Bhaktivinode Thakur). Not full != empty.



Very few people metioned in sastra are ordinary. Why follow any of their advice or examples if they are not pertinent for ordinary people? (And, why are they even mentioned then?)



Ha, funny you use this dramatic expression. Prabhupada uses it in the opposite way with regard to children--if they come in contact with Krsna even without knowledge they will still be "burnt" by that contact.



No doubt, especially if the family or culture have also relegated Krsna to the temple or some other realm "out there" and are not committed to inviting him into their lives fully. But is keeping Krsna on the altar, cloaked in ritual and standards the means to prevent cheapening? Is keeping him distant, instilling fear and respect, the means to instill devotion in a child?

I prefer this "experience of seeing God":



Can you trace the origin of your beliefs in this regard? Why do you think that Krsna should be "apart from all other kinds of temporal plays"?

It is declared in Shrimad Bhagavatam (10.11.7):

gopIbhiH stobhito 'nRtyad
bhagavAn bAlavat kvacit |
udgAyati kvacin mugdhas
tad-vazo dAru-yantravat || 7 ||

"The gopis would say, 'If You dance, my dear Krsna,
then I shall give Youhalf a sweetmeat.'
By saying these words or by clapping their hands,
all the gopis encouraged Krsna in different ways.
At such times, although He was the supremely powerful
Personality of Godhead, He would smile and
dance according to their desire,
Sometimes He would sing very loudly, at their bidding.
as if He were a wooden doll in their hands.

In this way, Krsna came completely
under the control of the gopis."

Haha. Classic. And you know that gaudiyageeks.com is still available? Could be a whole new field for Vaisnavism.

So does everyone have a personal preference. I prefer that barbies will be barbies and from now on I will inquire into the more profound meaning of the "sadhana" I practice. It is my right, I hope.

The origin of my belief I can't quite tell you my dear Braja, but I am very convinced that something that is temporal, perishable, not permanent, causes pain, suffering, sense of loss, whereas God, being permanent, is joy, rewarding, fulfillment. If these are lacking, I exercise my right to suspect such things. This is called search for happiness. A liberty that should not be denied to anyone.

"Prabhupada" can come quite in handy sometimes, can't it?

Any news on the books?

Forgot the age counter, added it in.

Do you think there'd be audience?

I thought we might start with a subforum here, actually I've had that in mind for a while now. I get frequent questions about various tech issues from devotees, and I thought it'd be more convenient to direct them to a place where there's a community of people to help them out. Gets the burden a bit off the shoulders of those who are more popular as the official free tech support, and also gives others the opportunity to render a bit of vaishnava-seva.

Anuraag,

So are you suggesting one take a set of barbies and clap hands to make them dance?

Or are you just offering a very nice, colorful post that should, in my view, go to the Pearly section?

Can we go back to tit-for-tat yet, Madhava?

Where are my books, Braja?

By all means. However, I think there is merit in the question itself, how to relate with a deity form, and that should be discussed too.

Not sure what to make of that. Sarcasm? A sting in thy tail? And why is he now an it? I hope you are not looking to separate that which does not need to be separated, stressing differences over concordance, and implying wilful manipulation. In any case, using a greater number of words can often help in avoiding misunderstandings.

And I am sorry that Barbie caused you such pain. At least you did not have to struggle to get Ken into a sari.



I have two separate shipments of books leaving India this week but don't have any arrival dates yet, unfortunately. I'll make an announcement when they are in.

Yes, please lets keep on discussing, but please try to understand my posts before you shoot them off all over the place like fireworks...
Thanks

I just want to make clear that the Deities of Sri Sri Radha Ramana, which Revati was talking about, were installed when we were in the NM’s Sanga, Bager, 2002. They were officially and ritualistically installed (according to their believes a and procedures). Before that all the Deities we had (mostly Sri Sri Goura-Nitai) were no installed; however, we did many Nama-Hatha with Them. All the devotees love Them. There was never a question of being installed or not; the devotees simply wanted to show their love, respects and have the happy opportunity to perform some kind of Seva.

If one is afraid of worshipping in a wrong way by feeling subjected to loss of any sort in his/her spiritual practices, I believe there was no sincerity to begin with. To understand the feelings and fire of Deity worshipping it almost requires the same attitude to understand the feelings of those who are in the Fire-of -Sankirtan; one has to jump in the arena and have a personal experience of that dance-of-love.


We have a six-year-old boy, Nimai Chandra that is learning to chant Hare Krishna and do offerings to Krishna. Without the mercy of Deities, I doubt if he would ever get good impressions about Krishna Consciousness; education start at home.


In the near future we will take our Sri Sri Radha-Ramana to be installed by Babaji Maharaja at Sri Radha-Kund.


Radhe Radhe !

You don't know the half of it...

Your are sorry?
It actually feels like a circus. You are swolling fire, walking on nails, and stiking your hear in a lion's mouth, and the audience applauds and demands encore. What fun!

Thanks for the update on The Books.

Applying a will to understand another can do in the place of many words. Thats also a possibility.

And yes, "Prabhupada" has become an it thing for some, many actually, if you haven't noticed yet. Shocked?

Have you heard the news? Ken and Barbie have split up, see here.

WELCOME TO THE WONDERWORLD OF SPLIT RASA!

Ken and Barbie split. Thread split. Banana split. Where is the world going to?

Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a vision. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore to this day.
--Sanskrit Proverb

This one is pretty good, too.

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good that we oft may win, by fearing to attempt
--William Shakespeare

I really like that one.... Read this one now,

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
--Albert Einstein

Anand, you're taking this a bit too seriously. Temple worship is very formal and home worship is informal. I don't believe anyone suggested that anyone use deities as an object of "playfulness," but then again, did anyone consider that the Deities just might want to play?

They do that all the time ..

Yes Gaurasundara, I take this very seriously. That the Deity want to play? Yes, that is yet another possibility.

There is no difference between an installed Murti in the temple and one in one's home. Installed means that the presence of the Lord is manifest in the Murti. It does not make a difference if the Murti is dressed in eleborate clothes, with fresh flower garlands, elaborate lighting system, marble temple, worshipped with six arotiks a day, or if the Murti is simply worshipped in ones home with an arotik and some simple bhoga. God is God. Deity is called 'Thakur' in ones home. He is the master of house, not just a guess. Yes, many things go on around the house not related to the seva of the Murti, but it does not make him less than in the temple. For that reason a grhastha who is worshipping a Murti in the home has no need to go to a temple to visit other Murtis because the Lord is there and he is actively worshipping the Lord, performing bhajan, not just taking darshan.

Personally, I would not encourage my child to worship or play with dolls of Krishna. I think it is better she sees Sri Radha-Krsna's form with a respectful attitude, as she sees now with our Murtis at home, than to be sleeping and slobbering over some images of Krsna. She is not allowed to touch the Murtis and we tell her that if she wants to do what we do then she must get diksa when she gets older. I think this is better than thinking that she has access to Krsna just because she is someone born in a devotee family. I have encountered many kids born of devotee parents who don't take the path of devotion in a serious way because of thinking that they have it already made in heaven. So I personally do not impart in my daughter's upbringing the idea that she is already saved. She must do her work towards obtaining devotion.

I had the same doubts when my 5 year old son touched the Deities of Gaura-Nitai. But then I realized that if I make restrictions, that will plant some bad impressions in his mind. So I did not make a big fuss. And he was so happy, he immediately made a necklace to Them, sometimes puts some small toy on the altar as a "gift". I could approach the whole situation in an orthodox way, but I don't want to. Even if he never becomes a devotee, at least he will keep a sweet memory of Gaura-Nitai, and this is much better than having a memory of some "statues of rigid tyrants" who ruled over the apt and only caused limitations in our family's life. If this makes me an offender, I am here to admit that I am an offender.

I can see the spirit behind your reasoning, Openmind. That one who is (not superficially), but deeply attracted to the presence of the Lord in the family atmosphere, is willing to go to hell rather than risk even one remote possibility of loosing connection with this Presence. And of course, extending that to the family members is an intrinsic and dyanmic part of the connection itlself. I would say, however, that when purely manifest, this is a rather rare sentiment, a sort of exception to the rule, if you will, on which I must compliment you. Openmind seems to be an apt identity for someone with such elevated accomplishments. Congratulations.

Children have a nature of playing with things for some time, then discarding them as the interest wanes. So too are people who worship images of Krishna in their home without direction and then give up the worship when the interest wanes. Without a determined and serious commitment it is only child's play, either way.

John Stratton Hawley remarks that “…[the] Vaishnava tradition [...] is totally unembarrassed about the role imagination plays in religious life. If the worship of images sounds like playing with dolls, let it. It is the spirit, the affection, the bhava, they say, that counts.” (At Play with Krishna, 17)

What will you tell him when he is 15 years old and he just came from school, having passed stool in the school bathroom without showering, associated with kids eating hamburgers and touching girls who have a period, are you also going to let him touch the Deities because you don't want to create a bad impression in him? And if you were to tell him something, he will say, "Daddy you let me play with the statues when I was young, why not now"?

I would tend to think that a person of 15 years is a bit different from a person of five. I tend to agree with Openmind about the importance of positive childhood impressions in relation with God and His service in various ways, since those early experiences affect our growth a great deal and carry us a long way.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Both of my children, Rasaparayana (6) and Chaitanya (2), help care for our deities, Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Radha Gopicandraji. It really doesn’t have to be all that complicated. On Sunday mornings after everyone has showered and taken a bath we bathe and change the clothing of our deities. My children help by brining various articles, arranging and placing on jewelry. During the week after my eldest son has eaten, washed and dressed he helps wake the deities and bring them water and my youngest helps him pick flowers from our backyard.

My wife and I truly believe that the best way to bring spiritual life to our children is to involve them in ours. The more that our practices involve them and nurture our relationships the more they will be encouraged to bring these practices in their own life. We have simple rules for them to follow in regards to our deities and they happily abide by them.

When H.H. Danurdhar Swami last visited my eldest son helped prepare articles of worship and flowers for his Giriraja. By helping serve this Vaisnava in his worship he received both spiritual benefit and it helped continue to forge a beautiful relationship between our son and this sweet Vaisnava.

Daily I have bhajana for the deities and the most eager assistant is my 2 year old son. It is a happy time and a way for us to celebrate and worship the center of our lives. They have an enthusiasm for this service that deeply touches their and our spiritual lives.

I openly encouraged Openmind to bring his son into the care of his deities. Simply set a standard of worship and abide by it strictly. Make it a family affair and teach the children how to view and care for the deities as an intricate part of not only their life but their families lives.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Actually, our home is not a suitable place for any Vaisnava orthodoxy for several reasons (my wife is not a devotee, we live with my old aunt who is non-veg and keeps meat in the fridge etc etc). But we should be happy to have an apt at all. So I try do what I can do under these conditions, and pray that the Lord mercifully accepts my silly endeavors... What else could I do, anyway?

Whatever is orthodox, anyway?

Cali=Kali?
Kali Yuga Barbie. A Kali avatara?


huahuahuahuahuahuahua
I got a bhava split with this post