Tantric Vaishnavism (Iskcon deviant style) - by Sri Gaurahari das Babaji

Any comments?

sadhaka108

from: http://www.goldenliontemple.org/tantra/


Preface

by Sri Gaurahari das Babaji

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I love to write. Communication is truly a passion for me, and I am at ease with it. Indeed, I have often made the claim that I am willing to talk with anybody about anything. And for many years I have made my living writing articles and books on all sorts of topics.

But whenever I sit down to write something as self-explanatory and frankly self-promotional as this, I just get writers’ block. While I do love to talk with all kinds of people about Tantric Vaisnavism, I have found it far more difficult to commit my own deeply personal experiences, feelings and strongly held beliefs to the page. So I hope you will be a little patient with me while I get over this feeling of self-consciousness and catch my stride.

When it comes to writing about spiritual topics, I have a principle that I observe very strictly: I refuse to write about anything that I have not personally experienced. That means everything you will read herein is an account of an experience, or a conclusion drawn from experience. I will never simply repeat something I read in a book somewhere. That kind of second-hand material has no place in a book about Tantric Vaisnavism, for it is a path of experience rather than mere philosophical or theological exercise.

There are so many books about spiritual life. And these days, there is no lack of material about Tantra and the spiritual potential of sexuality. As far as I am personally concerned, there is no need to write another. I have had the great good fortune to actually experience all of the spiritual things I could desire or imagine, and much more. So from my point of view, the ideas expressed in this or any other book on spiritual life are self-evident to anyone who has eyes to see and is experienced in spiritual realization.

However, I find that the vast majority of books published in the West do not really express the essential intensity of Tantric Vaisnavism as it is practiced by people for whom it is the native cultural and spiritual orientation, and among whom I have had the good fortune to live and learn for the majority of my adult years. Consequently both the presentation and practice of Tantra in the West has become, to a great extent, spiritually disempowered, materialistic and superficial.

No doubt part of this is a result of the spiritually enervating atmosphere of Western culture, which tends to reduce everything to the lowest common cultural denominator. But many if not most Western so-called ‘tantra’ teachers, in their rush to exploit Tantra, the only well-known spiritual path with a sex-positive orientation, present material they have encountered third-hand in books but not actually practiced for a significant time and realized for themselves. They also have to bear a large share of the responsibility for distorting Tantra in the West.

How many Western teachers of ‘tantra’ have studied in India with native teachers, learned Sanskrit, read the Tantric source literatures, and received formal initiation into the tradition? Has Tantra as it is taught in Europe and America produced any great saints or Enlightened beings? Cultural conditions in the West do make it difficult to practice Tantric ways. I had to go to India to find conditions conducive to doing my sadhana, and there I met quite a few Westerners who reported the same problem.

My concern is that, as ancient traditional spiritual cultures are repackaged for distribution in the global mass-market culture, the tendency is to mistake a merely intellectual understanding for actual realization, confusing the symbol with the actual thing it represents. This is especially true in the case of Tantra, where so much of the actual practices remain obscure, secret and hidden, even in India.

Tantric rituals must be a uniquely personal expression of the practitioners’ sexuality; no one-size-fits-all or cookbook approach will suffice. Therefore, Tantric practices are really only appropriate for those who are sufficiently advanced to create their own style of practice in harmony with Tantric principles. Tantra is not for spiritual neophytes, but for those with a deep understanding and realization of its principles.

One of my most important aims in presenting the Tantric teachings is to restore the West’s understanding of the Tantric path to the greatness of its original spiritual roots, the Esoteric Teaching of the Vedas. Another very important aim is to encourage people to practice esoteric spiritual paths with great enthusiasm, intensity and energy. I am confident that once the actual spiritual aims and purposes of Tantra are more widely understood, this deepening of practice will naturally follow.

Energy and Ecstasy
My first experience of these practices was a spontaneous event in my teenage years, when I discovered the interesting psychophysical effects of intense sensation and prolonged ritual practices. Later my first wife, a Native American Medicine Woman, initiated me into the intensely erotic world of the Navaho Qidoshka practices. Alone with her in the silence of the desert, I learned firsthand of the intense sensations, high-energy states, deeper spaces, visions and ultimately, the other dimensions and spiritual worlds attainable by these practices. My travels and further learning experiences in India and the South Pacific broadened my knowledge and deepened my practice. Now my life is about sharing these wonderful practices and experiences with others.

The essence of Tantric Vaisnavism is intense energy, spiritual erotic ecstasy and visionary creative consciousness. Tantric Vaisnavism is a sex-positive, pansexual spiritual practice that is open to the erotic practices of all orientations without judgment. It uses consciously directed sex energy to manifest states of advanced spiritual consciousness.

Unfortunately in the West, we have erected many cultural obstacles to experiencing this kind of ecstasy. Lack of knowledge, leisure time and cultural resources are perhaps the most serious such obstacles. Under the prevailing conditions in America especially, spiritual life, deep meditation, the pursuit and attainment of Enlightenment, sexual ecstasy and emotional satisfaction are precious luxuries. They are obtainable only by the elite with sufficient resources to cultivate advanced erotic, cultural and spiritual arts, or by the dedicated few who are willing to renounce material opulence, comfort and reputation to live their dreams.

None of the books on Tantra and Tantric Vaisnavism I have seen so far in the West provide a practical way around this and other difficult problems in practicing spiritual growth in such a heavily materialistic society. So I am motivated to provide something that can help.

If only we could put aside, even for a moment, our social conditioning and live our lives on the spiritual platform from our true heart. Everything would acquire its proper value and people would naturally be happy. I often see our social conditioning as a materialistic addiction that insists we keep so busy doing things we hate, that we have no time to do things we love. How wonderful life could be if only we had enough time and energy for spiritual wisdom, love and pleasure.

Fortunately, the Esoteric Teaching of Tantric Vaisnavism gives us practical ways to attain these things in this lifetime, even in a modern lifestyle. If performed with the proper intention and understanding, the original Tantric methods are so powerful that they provide results very quickly. This will be a real help to many people who do not have the time, resources or discipline needed to study the classical Ways of Enlightenment like Zen or Yoga, which require years of disciplined, monastic life and rigorous study just to reach an acceptable standard of theoretical or technical competence.

Portland, 1984
My partners and I had been exploring Tantric erotic practices intensively for several months. At some point I felt a deep need for silence and aloneness. I needed to meditate.

I was determined to attain Enlightenment or die. My main partner and I went traveling, visited my Teacher and then took a small apartment in a quiet building overlooking the Portland harbor.

Every day I would meditate for at least 8-10 hours, sometimes as much as 18 hours a day. I was following the meditation method outlined in the Taoist classic, Secret of the Golden Flower.

I was meditating on my breath to begin with, then on my heart, then on my energy, which was gradually moving higher and higher up my inner channel. I got so that I could easily move the energy up and out the top of my head, exteriorizing completely from my body at will. Then I would just relax and feel the space.

After six weeks of intense meditation, I was so sensitive I could feel the energy of every person in the entire apartment complex. My partner took a weekend trip to visit a friend in a nearby city. I had retreated deep into the silence and she was tired of being ignored.

That Saturday, the morning passed in the usual manner, that is to say I sat and meditated. I took a break about noon and cooked some whole wheat saimin and miso shiro.

As I relaxed after eating, I started to masturbate. I had not ejaculated in about two weeks. I masturbated very slowly to climax, doing nothing special whatsoever. Now up to this trip north, I had been practicing Tantric erotic methods so intensively that it is quite possible I may have employed some of them instinctively. But I had no conscious knowledge of this.

In the afterglow of the orgasm, I suddenly felt a presence in the room. A person, female from the energy, was there but not visible to my eyes. Then I felt a tap of energy on my forehead, on my third eye where I have a scar from a childhood accident.

My spiritual vision opened up and I could suddenly see. I saw the Spirit, His love like a tidal wave in an ocean of milk, pervading everything and somehow being everything without becoming it.

My world was suddenly seven-dimensional, with the ordinary reality and the spiritual reality running concurrently through time. I could see what was going on in the Spirit behind the illusion. The veil had opened.

I could feel everything the plant in the corner of the room was feeling, or talk to a stone. Everything was alive, everything had its own intelligence.

I felt ecstatic; I could barely contain my joy. I wanted to run around hugging people, like the guy in the song “Love Potion #9.” After some hours of this ecstasy, I had to share it with someone. Barely containing my bubbling joy, I walked down to the local teahouse.

People were a real surprise. They looked like cardboard cutouts and studiously tried to make believe I was not there. Hell, I got better rapport from the plants in the teahouse window! I felt like a ghost. I had to pinch myself to make sure I hadn’t left my body. No one would even acknowledge my presence.

Back at my place, the energy was better. I remained in ecstasy for hours. Although the initial excitement gradually wore off, I was profoundly changed in some very subtle way. My consciousness was permanently altered.

Having achieved my goal, I gave up my intensive meditation program. After a few days, I learned to behave relatively normally again. My partner came back from her trip, refreshed. A couple of weeks later we went camping on Maui.

Life goes on after Enlightenment. It’s hard to say what’s changed except my consciousness and how I see things; but then again, that has made all the difference.

Tantric Vaisnavism does not require students to change their sexual practices, clothing, diet, or lifestyle. The changes will come naturally from within as one gradually progresses in the practice. The whole point is to start developing your spiritual practice from where you are now. You don’t have to change anything external; real spiritual practices are transcendental to this material world.

Because of my personal experience with these teachings and practices, I am confident that the Esoteric Teaching of Tantric Vaisnavism will be a contribution of real value to many sincere spiritual seekers. It enabled me to solve the problems of life, to my great personal satisfaction. That benefit will now be available to many.

Sri Gaurahari das Babaji
St. Charles, Illinois, USA

April 18, 1995

He is definitely a very highly placed person in that famous line of self-appointment and self-declared spiritual realization (called "advancement to pure devotee"-club), as these statements corroborate:



The real prove of Baba's exalted divine nature are the many references to extremely enlightening statements of his first guru, as e.g. this one here:



Truly spiritual, yes.

Tantrik Version of Gaurangapada and NM - advertising oneself as a siddha guru over the back of poor ACBS.

Another opinion based on imagination. I love it when people discuss spiritual processes they never practised even for a moment in their lives. Tantra has nothing to do with what most people think, "lets get drunk and have a gang-bang". Tantra is a path of trying to see the divine aspect, the transcendence even in so-called "impure" things, thus achieving liberation which equals with getting beyond the mundane concepts of good and bad.

The sexual practice is just a small part of Tantra. Just remember that for instance in Tibet, Tantra was mostly practised by monks living in monasteries, spending their whole day with pujas and sadhanas, never meeting women. The main practise in Tantra is visualization, where you try to identify with a certain divinity, saying the mantra etc. This is the main and most common sadhana in Tantra. As for the sexual practise: mostly this is also done in visualization, you visualize yourself as a unity of two deities, male and female. But it has nothing to do with mundane sexuality or any enjoying spirit. Its only aim is to raise some energies to specific chakras and achieve what they call enlightenment.

There is even a warning in some of the tantras that if someone does this practice with an enjoying spirit, he will fall to vajra-hell (a kind of eternal hell). In very rare cases it is actually done with a female partner, they call this practice "karmamudra". I have met several Tantric masters and practitioners, hundreds of them, but I know only one couple who received the authentic form of this practise from an authentic master.

The Order of the Golden Lion is a small, elite group of disciples hand-picked by Babaji himself for the important task of safeguarding the devotees from harm. Their first priority is to protect and personally serve Babaji and his guests, but their mandate of responsibility extends to the general ethics and morale of the entire local and extended Temple community.

Babaji is an advanced, highly realized spiritual master. When in his presence, one must observe a devotional protocol based on traditional spiritual principles. For example, it is generally accepted that people approach a spiritual teacher to be taught about spiritual life. If one tries to put forth and argue his own ideas in the presence of a great soul, this is an offense called guru-aparadha, or failure to respect a self-realized spiritual master properly situated in the Vedic lineage.

Who can join the Order
Intelligent young unmarried men under 30, in good health, without any encumbrances such as school, family responsibilities, career, legal entanglements, etc. (we will do a background and credit check). You must be willing to sign a strict nondisclosure agreement to apply and be interviewed. You must be open-minded, tolerant and easygoing, but dedicated to the search for the Absolute Truth and willing to make a commitment of at least one year. Trust us, it takes that long to give this opportunity a fair shake.

from: http://www.goldenliontemple.org/tantra/

http://www.goldenliontemple.org/bhakti/ebooks/sftat.pdf is a link to a book by someone called Bhaktisiddhartha Dasanudas, Is this the same person as Sri Gaurahari Das Babaji in the same website?

This subject does in fact raise quite a few broader questions to which I don't necessarily expect any firm answers but I'd be interested in other people's thoughts.

How do raganuga bhaktas compare with the ISKCON sex-negative attitudes?



Jai Sri Radhe

Ananga Manjari Das

You may be right there. The "whois" information for that site mentions a David Hughes, who used to post on Vaisnava usenet, VNN, etc., as Bhaktisiddartha and Dasanudas Vanacari. Unfortunately he used the same email address to post to several BDSM type groups also so found himself in a bit of hot water when he tried to criticize others. He clearly had a double life going, so perhaps this is his way of merging the two under a new identity.

Elite indeed. Are you sure this is about the Absolute Truth? Sounds like an ad for the Navy Seals.

Speaking as someone who practised Tantra for a number of years; the problem with Tantra is that it has no set rules or regualtions, or even scriptures to follow.

Thus, in my opinion, anyone who tries to "claim" something even vaguely "Tantrik" is not even worthy of attention. Unless they can prove their "guru pranali" of course.

Madness!



Glup!

There are a number of Bengali works: Agama-sara (Jugala Das), Ananda-bhairava (Prem Das), Amrita-ratnavali (Mukunda Das), and Amrita-rasavali (a disciple of Mukunda Das), published by Paritosh Das in 1979.

The Mukunda Das in these is purported to be Krishna Das Kaviraj's disciple and guru of Rupa Kaviraj, through whom most of the Sahajiyas trace their disciplic successions.

And of course, there is the famous Vivarta-vilasa, which is later than these. I believe it has been translated into English by Glenn Hayes.

If the case is that there are no set rules or even scriptures for Tantra, then it seems almost anything can be considered "tantra", in which case anyone who tries to "claim" something even vaguely "tantrik" could be in the right and thus worthy of your (our) attention.

Hmmmmmmmm.... how is it that YOU know he was posting to BDSM groups, Braja?

THE SECRET LIFE OF LORD SRI NRSINGHA!

(Heretofore never revealed esoterica regarding the inner life of the half-man/half-lion incarnation of Bhagwan Sri Hari)

from: http://www.goldenliontemple.org/tantra/

Well, if you don't get the darshan of Zmazana-kAlI or whoever is your iSTa by such a practice of "tantra," then it is obviously not real Tantra.

The same thing applies to all forms of philosophy, there are reals and there are fakes also. Find the real thing and get it.

Mukunda Das and Rup Kaviraj are both in my Guru pranali. The former also wrote a book called "vibhas to vilas".

Betal, I'm not even sure what BDSM is. My momma got very angry when I asked. I thought she was going to tie me up in the basement and punish me, but fortunately she just banned me from the internet for a year instead.

Conclusive proof that varnasrama-dharma must be observed!

Braja ahahahahahahahahahaha LOL

The domain name registration records indicate that both Bhaktisiddhartha Dasanudas and David Hughes live in the same apartment on 6 Cardenas Ave. San Francisco. Either the ashram of the Golden Lion Cult is located there, or we are speaking of one and the same fellow.

The style of design with the websites of Gaurahari Das Babaji and Bhaktisiddhartha are unmistakably identical. Here's some biodata on Bhaktisiddhartha: click.

Ever wondered who was behind the show? Here goes:


Bhaktisiddhartha also seems to have quite a long history with AC Bhaktivedanta Swami:

That would put the date of their first meeting at about 1945. Perhaps he was working in that sacred drug factory Bhaktivedanta had in Allahabad?

That explains all the lies.



More lies. 30 years until 1977, makes from India's Independence in 1947. Looking at his pic, BS was still shitting in his diapers then. In the USA I presume, not in Calcutta.

Final lie:

In the Vedabase there is no Bhaktisiddharta Das in the archives of ACBS disciples.

Check this out:

http://www.goldenliontemple.org/baba/prophecy.htm

Check out the last prediction to get a perspective on his BDSM posts. Put that together with the fact that he's looking for young umarried men - who should sign a full nondisclosure agreement - into his ashram... This really is the most fringe site I've seen for a long time!

Moved this one into the ISKCON/GM etc. forum. I believe it fits the etc. very well.

Yes, Bhaktisiddhartha is David Hughes. He was initiated as Dasanudas, as best I can tell, in 1977 (although some dispute even this claim). His stories, as I've said before, just don't jibe. And I have no doubt that this "babaji" is also the same person. He is a man free of self doubt.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

He is connected with some early 20 something year old that gave himself Sanyassa. I remember Srila Dhanurdhar Maharaja related the story of this significant Sanyassa initiation in one of his Govardhana journals which inclded cross dressing and other such details (maybe Rathi can supply it).

Please don’t call or attribute this gentleman to ISKCON... that would be a travesty that ISKCON doesn't deserve.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Or maybe it's not a lie after all, and would in fact explain much, since this Gaurahari Das Babaji fellow is most certainly full of...



Seriously, it's just bizarre to envision that this man could attract and retain any followers. Anyone who can spend even 10 minutes searching the Internet can readily find plenty of this gentleman's own previous words that debunk his current presentation, and can see that he is either a madman or a very poor liar.

Then again, individuals like him do seem to be able to keep a small coterie of groupies, odd as it may seem. I think also of http://www.ramakrishnananda.com/ as a comparable (though perhaps not quite as "over the top") example of this phenomenon.

It seems that this Ramakrishnananda Swami is at good terms with many ISKCON Swamis.

I suppose he is just being innovative within some acceptable parameters.

In his Q&A forums, siddha-pranali gets an OK too. Our inquisitive Openmind has briefed the Swami, I note.

Pardon my cynicism, but I guess I don't read his response in quite the same way you do. If you had seen the earlier versions of his website with his lipstick-wearing sannyasini-babes, I think that you, too, might be inclined to suspect that he is passing to his disciples something other than the scriptural siddha-pranali.



Parse his above statement, and you come up with: "Any way an elevated guru chooses to act with his disciples would obviously be bona fide." Depending on the context, this could be a very dangerous assertion.

http://www.wavesofdevotion.com/journal/2003/200310.html

October 14, 2003 - Karttika
Govardhana

Jayadvaita Maharaja and Vaisesika Prabhu are here now, so at least the regular gathering of devotees has arrived. Although everyone here is intensely absorbed in their own services and vows, all of the asrama devotees, young and old, take prasadam together.

I look forward to the pleasant exchanges with the devotees as we gather together for our morning and midday meals. Prasadam that is devotionally prepared and expertly served immediately creates spiritual community and buoys one’s spirits.

After prasadam, the few senior devotees here usually relax and enjoy each other’s company for a short while in Kesava Bharati Maharaja’s room before going back to their services. Today I heard what I can only call:

Krishna’s Believe It Or Not

One of the devotees related a story that left us speechless. His purpose was to highlight how far one who is independent, lacks guidance, and is devoid of sambanda-jnana can digress from the core of our tradition. The story was so unbelievable that I had to confirm it first directly from the source. Here goes:

A book distributor in San Francisco (a devotee now here for Karttika) meets a person on the street who invites him to an initiation ceremony at a Hare Krishna temple down the block—a temple he didn’t even know existed despite the fact that he preaches in the Bay Area. Out of curiosity, he went.

When he arrived he was surprised to see a rtvik initiation going on. The person supposedly initiating on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, the rtvik priest, was a devotee who was famous in ISKCON in the early ’70s for being quite a “ksatriya.” I remember hearing of his prowess immediately after joining.

The rtvik priest and former “ksatriya” is now a cross-dresser. He says he wants to become more balanced by bringing out his feminine side, since “after all, we are ultimately prakrti (female energy).”

This rtvik priest sometime wears miniskirts during kirtanas, but usually wears a sari to the temple. Today he is dressed in a lady’s Punjabi outfit.

Bhakta John was taking this so-called initiation. As if getting first and second initiation by a so-called rtvik acarya in a Punjabi outfit is not strange enough, today Bhakta John is also taking rtvik sannyasa!

Even more ludicrous was our priest’s speech, which described this bizarre scene as “a moment in history.” Maharaja, formerly Bhakta John, immediately spoke following the priest’s speech, saying, “If you are going to do something controversial, why not go all the way?”

Regarding Ramakrishnananda swami.... who's disciple is he?
His website lists 2.

I believe I've seen every version of it, all the way from the Har-Tzion days, because every time they changed the story and the URL (while preserving the layout of the site!) some follower of his went around to post advertisements on every other website you can imagine. He arose some curiosity a while back when we noted that he spoke of a certain Narahari Das Babaji, said to be a disciple of Jagannath Das Babaji, as the most prominent guru in his life. I believe he went by the name of Har-Tzion back then. I don't think he's giving any sort of siddha-pranali. Just curious to observe that there was no outright condemnation there. Seems like a broad-minded fellow. But then again, so is Bhaktisiddhartha Dasanudas Gaurahari.

I believe those sannyasini-babes, Swami Durgananda and the rest, were a part of some program of preaching to Osho folks, not a permanent solution. I must admit it looked a bit odd, but if you're coming out of a movement where things like this are tweaked at its root, it's not that much of a surprise to see further mutations along the way as adjustments for preaching purposes. Heck, even Tripurari authorized sannyasa for pets. Or was it women, something radical anyway.

I love those three dots at the end of every sentence in Swami Ramakrishnananda's responses to questions... It invokes a mood of deep thoughtfulness... Mere words are not enough to describe the depth of the matter... Imagine the humming of the wind from the mountains and the sounds of the sea... When you read these texts... And it gradually becomes a bit annoying... When it goes on sentence after sentence... Indefinitely...

Aw, come on. Tripurari Maharaja has authorized sannyasa neither for women nor for pets. When asked about women and sannyasa, he replied to the effect that he couldn't see a spiritual reason against it.

There are times when I'd like to have him (or someone) give our cockatiels sannyasa and set them free to preach to all the birdies. But I'm afraid we're stuck with them. Besides, they're female.

Nice to see what you think of women, Madhava.

Jay Radhe-Shyam!

I think that this discussions isn´t really what the type of discussions that I meant when I started this threat. My goal is to discuss Tantric Vaishnavism and NOT about institutions and about caracteres of this institutions. So, I think that ISKCON, GAUDIYA MATHA ETC. isn´t the best place to put this threat.

I didn´t label that this Tantric Vaishnavism of Gourahari das Babaji was a (Iskcon deviant style). So, I ask the administrator to put off his judment values of my words.

BTW, any comments ABOUT THE TEXT?

I moved it over into this forum because the discussion turned towards ISKCON/GM. Overall, this certainly is a topic which belongs among the etc. of new movements. Perhaps in the future if you wish to influence the direction of a thread more, you should post into it more often than once a week.


I assume that Jagat had a good reason for changing the subheading.

I'd also like to know what exactly is Vaishnava Tantras.
Here and there in various Gaudiya literatures I've seen that qoutes are taken from "tantras". What is that all about?

You could for example look at this thread.

Sadhakaji, I agree with Madhava that if you want to control the direction of a discussion, you should be more specific in what you want to draw out of a long cut and paste. You only said "Any comments?"

We have had other threads dealing more specifically with Tantra, and it is a subject that comes up often enough.

I did not feel that this Gaurahari Das Babaji article was leading to a general discussion about Tantric Vaishnavism. I felt rather that here was a specific case of an individual trying to get on the Tantra bandwagon.

In this instance, we have the curious case of a person claiming loyalty to Bhaktivedanta Swami while adopting Tantric ideas, against which Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivedanta Swami were outspokenly opposed.

Furthermore, the connection to Nrisingha is curious. The gentleman is winging it. He does not really have a connection to a Vaishnava Sahajiya tradition. Maybe he should get one.

I have been saying for some time that the grown of Tantric Vaishnavism or Sahaja Vaishnavism is as inevitable now as it was in the original Bengali context, if not more so. [I have also seen another site by a Dutch individual who has quite a good site on Tantric sex + Bengali Vaishnava bhajans. The guy seems to be someone from the Osho group who was attracted to aspects of the theism and culture of Iskcon and has now forged his own path. (Lost the link, sorry.)]

The closer we get to the symbolism of Radha and Krishna, the more likely we are to see people questioning the hard-line stance on celibacy, at least as the orthodoxy interprets it. In an oversexed free-love society like ours, it seems inevitable that more and more people will eventually take this very logical step. (Just look at our outspoken friend with the ever-changing alias.)

Indeed, I have said that the orthodoxy and Sahajiyaism are really the two wings that Krishna consciousness needs to fly. Why? Because the debate about sexuality generates a lot of energy.

Internal debates generate life.

Maybe there is a line of confergence between the orthodox wing and the tantric wing of Vaishnavism.

Perhaps there are orthodox Vaishnava couples practicing "tantric sex" yet not thinking of themselves as Radha Krishna and therefore would not be "sahajiyas".

This would be acceptable, right?

Quite right. There are people who think that all sex is bad and that renouncing sex desire and activity are essential aspects of the devotional path. For them, thinking about Radha and Krishna is going to be dangerous because there is the possibility that one will start thinking about human sexual love in a positive light.

There are other people who think that Radha and Krishna represent the ideal love that is reflected in this world. That there is spiritual profit to be had from human relationships, not the least of which are loving relationships between members of the opposite sex. For them, physical sex as a spiritual culture is somewhat irrelevant.

There are others who think that Radha and Krishna symbolize yogic and sankhya categories and that it is through sexo-yogic practices that one attains spiritual realization of a monistic sort through such practices, i.e. awakening of the Kundalini, etc.

There are others who believe that the bhakti path can be combined with the yogic practices in a bhakti-oriented metaphysic, whereby bhakti is the principal element.

And, like you said, there are others who believe that the bhakti path is principal element and that the sexo-yogic practices are neutral for bhakti.

So there are a number of different possible approaches.

Madhava and Jagat,
dandavats.



I don´t have many internet facilities and I don´t have enought time to post as I would like.




I´m a brazilian and I have some difficult to communicate in english. So, I try to use the minnimum possible of words

I will try to write a little more, next time!



Why this article wouldn´t lead to a discussion about Tantric Vaishnavism? I think that throught it we could discuss some views about Tantric Vaishnavism or pseudo-Tantric Vaishnavism, like you are doing now.

I agree with your views about Gaurahari Das Babaji and Tantra, sahajism, etc. But I think that it has a lot of things about Tantra, sahajiya tradition, sacred sex and like, to be revealed.

Your servant,
sadhaka108

What about if we think of ourselves like manjaris doing seva while at same time having sex and chanting the holy names? Is this sahajiya?

Try thinking about manjaris and chanting Nama while having sex....

I bet you can't do it!

If you do all of that simultaneously, I don't know if it's sahajiya, but it's damn weird! You shouldn't be having sex while doing seva.

why not?



Yes, it´s weird, but I don´t think of any other mean to offer sexual activities to Divine Couple. The maha-mantra may be chanted at any time, no rules.



Are there any shastra telling us this?

Please, I would like to known any other ideas (weird or not) of offering sexual activities.

I believe those sannyasini-babes, Swami Durgananda and the rest, were a part of some program of preaching to Osho folks, not a permanent solution.

Who is this Swami?

Sadhak108.....

Anyway, if you can think of manjari seva and chant Nama while having sex you are certainly a rare soul..... more power to ya!

Are you kidding? One is not supposed to do thakur seva for three days after intercourse, let alone do it during intercourse!


`
1. Pay high fees to have your offspring raped and tortured at a transcendental boarding school by qualified brahmins that will usher in a golden age for 10.000 years after destroying all the demons.
2. Chant 50 rounds first and beg permission from the Guru for doing it.
3. Dream that you can create devotee children in this way, unlike ACBS and BVT's 10 non-devotee kids (each).
4. Wear a kaupin and shaved head as a grihastha, take the kaupin off before you have your authorised sex.

Who is to judge that their kids were not "devottees"?
What is the criteria?
That they didn't join Iskcon or the Gaudiya Math?

Also, why can't one do Thakur Seva until 3 days after intercourse?
Yet they can chant? I don't get it.

Just joking.....

Sadhaka:

As for your question on how to make sex a kind of spiritual practice, there are different visualizations with chakras, nadis etc., but these are really really difficult, and take years to learn properly. A very elevated Tibetan Buddhist/Bon master, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was also asked about this practice very often, and he said that if you can remain fully conscious during sex, not letting passion, remorse, different thoughts take over your mind, but you are fully present and awake, that will lead to spiritual advancement. Be totally present in what you do. Usually when devotees have sex, all the terrible things appear in their mind they heard in Iskcon about how animalistic, sinful and hellish this activity is, they feel remorse etc. It is a great breakthrough to become able to get rid of all this frustrating brainwash.

Sex is part of human life. But I also would not agree with mixing sex and bhajan. You know the famous Zen teaching? "When you eat, just eat, when you sleep, just sleep." When you do your japa, do it 100%, nothing else exists, just the mantra, and when you have sex or eat or read or anything, do it with the same attitude. Then, everything, every little aspect of your daily life can become sacred. The first step is becoming conscious. Then one can become Krsna-conscious.

I hope this may help.

Since nobody exactly answered your question, here is the answer. There are seemingly many Vaishnavas who feel they dont experience enough happiness in spiritual activity, feel like dieing of starvation. They heard a lot about higher taste, transcendental joy or spiritual trance but didnt see it enter their own lives. In order to compensate this vacuum of spiritual satisfaction they are in great need to "add some powder sugar" over their situation and here we are, thats called Vaishnava Tantra. Visit a typical North American Vaishnava Tantric http://www.saraswata.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=532&start=15 in his "Luv Shack".

The published version of the lakSmI-tantra considers tAntrika sex one of the valid methods of worshipping the tArikA mantra, hrIM.

As presented by Western authors, "tantrik sex" appears to employ very good lovemaking techniques. As presented by the old Indian texts, it appears to employ very boring techniques, as detailed here;

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/brihad.htm

How come there no is discussion of the other practices of the Shakta faith like worship of Devi Ma, recitation of The Chandi and Graveyard sadhana ..?

Tantra = Sex = Western Ignorance

betal_nut quotes:
"She, the primordial one, Mahaprakriti, Kali, the true form of time, whose great mantra of all mantras is the ocean of mantra, she alone gives all success to a sadhaka who wants it. The destroyer of anxiety, giving boons, seated on a corpse, gives all desires, O Devi, and creates all marvels."

bangli:
Well I spoke to soon...you did mention here that graveyard nectar !

Yes Betal, let's hear it - the graveyard nectar. What do you know about it?

Does this Swami Durgananda have a website?
I remember seeing a site some years back with a dude up n Northern England or Scotland maybe who had a group of sahajiyas who claimed to follow Mahaprabhu.

anyone?

LOL

Gee Advaita, I think YOU know more about that stuff than I do ..... (you know what I mean).

Do I? Not much, anyway whatever you have to add what I dont already 'know'....

Excerpts from:

laKmI-tantra: A pAJcarAta Text

translated by saJjukta gupta

with some capitalizations, punctuations, and diacritics reformatted by me, ombudsman, but word-for-word as from saJjukta gupta, with additions from me in braces

with my transliteration scheme, inspired by the laKmI-tantra:
a A i I u U R RR L LL (the laKmI-tantra uses this vowel) e ai o au M H
k kh g gh G
c ch j jh J
T Th D Dh N
t th d dh n
p ph b bh m
y r l v
C (as in the Tokyo Standard scheme, rather than the z of the Kyoto-Harvard scheme) S s
h
K (improvized because the laKmI-tantra apparently considers it a simple consonant rather than the compound kS)

Chapter 43: Different Methods of Worshipping the mantra of tArikA {hrIM}

43.73-77
O Cakra {indra}, you are particualrly dear to Me; now listen [carefully] to what I {laKmI} am about to say. Having heard it, you too should put it into practice, [but] you should not tell anybody about it. If a yogin should meet a beautiful and shapely (fine-hipped) woman, he should visualize Me in her whilst mentally reciting [the mantra of] tArikA {hrIM}. He should contemplate her beauty with a mind free from lust. He should envisage her vital air (prANa) as the Sun, and her {Over?}soul (hRdayapuruSa) as the Highest Self. He should envisage her beauty and charm as fire. He should visualize that highly gifted woman as {qualitatively?} identical with Me. In this way, after seeing Me [in her], he should with his enlightened mind meditate on Me whilst reciting brahma [tAra-mantra {oM}].

43.78-85
By and by, when he achieves the state of samAdhi, I enter there [in the person of that woman]. The sign of My advent [in her] is a stillness and relaxation in all parts [of her] body. After duly worshipping Me [as embodied in her], with a mind free from desire, he should stop [the moment] he is united and should avoid all sin. The wise should never perform this with the wives of others, [because] she in whom such a samAdhi occurs is sure to love it. [Therefore] one should perform this with one's own wife or with a common woman. [Of course] deviation from [this rule] is not wrong as [such a woman] is envisaged as {qualitatively?} identical with Me. The intense delight derived from the enjoyment through physical contact should be meditated on [by the yogin] with an unflickering mind as being My Own Person. The state of pleasure obtained from stimulation and friction with some recommended object [of delight], [i.e.] the erotic enjoyment, should be cultivated [by the yogin]. The pleasure derived from seeing some object with the eyes, from tasting [some object], from listening to [some sound], from inhaling some smell, is My blissful manifestation. As revealed [here], this becomes true in the case of the yogin who practises self-restraint, when [sensual enjoyment] arising from listening, tasting, touching, etc. comes naturally to him [without his conscious desire].

43.86
Enjoyment derived from [mere physical] contact only brings misery. It has a beginning and an end, [hence] [a yogin's mind] should not find [real] pleasure in it.

43.87-94
The supreme delight experienced through the intuitive knowledge of [the yogin] who has conquered the rajas {material passion} and destroyed the tamas {material ignorance} [in himself] and who exists only in the state of sattva {goodness}-- that [experience of] bliss without a beginning or end is My Body pervaded by knowledge. That [pleasure] can never be experienced [in the pleasure] obtained from [the enjoyment] derived from objects of physical contact, because afterwards these pleasure-inducing objects imprison a person in misery. What [is the use of] the honey in which poison lurks, even if it tastes sweet, since afterwards it kills the consumer? A person seeking to obtain happiness from enjoyment derived from physical contact is like one sheltering under the shadow of a vicious snake when exhausted by heat of the Sun. Which happy person will be deceived by such pleasures, which are to be obtained through great hardship, which though seeming to entice hold misery, which are limited and decaying? The yogin who has purified himself by reciting the prescribed [mantra{'s}], who eats with restraint, and whose [two lesser guNa's] rajas and tamas, already dimished by his divine sattva [guNa], are further reduced by the performance of rites pleasing to Me, should never cease to discipline his mind in order to obtain samAdhi. Indeed, he who has conquered his mind is always able to win the world. My Pure Body automatically reveals Itself to a mind [fully] conquered [by its possessor].

Advaita ji,
Since your Gurudeva sometimes did sadhana in the shamsham why don't you inquire from some of his more intimate disciples what they know about this practice?

Well, certain disciplines out there do indeed advocate a system of visualization techniques that need to be employed when having sex. The approaches invariably involve thinking of yourself and your partner as representatives of the Deity and maintaining a high level of detachment from the activity, which I suppose is quite sahajiya now that I think of it. Its hard to do but can be improved with practice. The one thing about this is that this is mainly employed in the Saiva/Sakta schools.

So I agree that thinking of manjaris and chanting nama etc is an innapropriate activity and is probably not suitable for Gaudiyas. I have a feeling that the first hints of anti-sahajiya sentiments in Gaudiya history may have been a result of a marked intolerance of saiva/sakta "deviations" that were getting introduced into the Gaudiya theology. Well, for a minority anyway.

Bangli, I used to do all those things you mentioned on at least four separate occasions. The graveyard sadhana (zava-sAdhana) is a very powerful means to attain the audience of your beloved deity. You need nerves of steel, though ...

[quote=Gaurasundara,May 16 2004, 12:43 AM] [/QUOTE]
If you do all of that simultaneously, I don't know if it's sahajiya, but it's damn weird! You shouldn't be having sex while doing seva.

Bangli, I did all of those things that you mentioned on at least four separate occasions. The graveyard sadhana (zava-sAdhana) is a very powerful means to quickly attain an audience of your beloved deity. You need nerves of steel, though ...[/QUOTE]
[/quote]
Gaurasundar,

Did you ever sit on a dead corpse and do japa in the graveyard?

Yes.

oh come on....really?

well tell us this 'graveyard nectar' oh goulish one.

you drank from a skull also I suppose...

Yep. But the way we did it is to cook brains in it and eat that.

Why is it so hard to believe that I am familiar with these things? I did practice them for about 3-4 years.

I don't see how this is a suitable subject for this forum anyway. You can PM me if you want further details if you like.

Hey I believe ya Gaurasundar...

and

Just a splintered part of the tantric discussion as I see it...

Gaura, did you REALLY cook brains and eat them or were you just being sarcastic?

Of course he was serious. He is our resident fringe. I mean, somewhere he had to spend his time cultivating all that sukriti that led him to ISKCON, not?

Lead him to Iskcon...? Wasn't he born in Iskcon.....?

Maybe the brains were what drew him away!

I don´t think it´s too difficult. You can put a cd in a player with the maha-mantra and just chant it!
The manjari seva seens more difficult, but with pratice you can receive insights how fit it...

Wow. You might also want to just consider doing whatever you need to do whenever you do it and then focus on your seva whenever you are doing your seva. Next we will be passing stool for God.

Madhava,

Be careful...that could very well be a secret Tantrik sadhana...meant to disillusion one from this temporary relm..!

Protected as you are by the beautiful sights of swans in Helsinski, you would be surprised, o innocent heart, the stuff that already goes on in the world in the name of God...

Sadhaka, where did you learn all these weird stuff? From the Bauls-off-Bra, maybe?

There are some tantriks who actually eat stool.

Excerpt from the book "Masters of Mahamudra" by Keith Dowman:

"Long ago, in the island kingdom of Sri Lanka, a young prince ascended the throne of his fabulously wealthy father, The court astrologers had calculated that the kingdom must be given to the deceased king's second son if it was to remain strong and its people content. In his palace, where the walls were plated with gold and silver and studded with pearls and precious stones, the young king ruled his two brothers and all the people of Sri Lanka. However, possessing nothing but contempt for wealth and power, his only desire was to escape his situation. When he first attempted to escape, his brothers and courtiers caught him and bound him in golden chains, but finally he succeeded in bribing his guards with gold and silver, and at night, disguised in rags, he escaped with a single attendant. He rewarded his faithful accomplice generously before leaving his island kingdom for Ramesvaram, where King Rama reigned, and there he exchanged his golden throne for a simple deer-skin and his couch of silks and satin for a bed of ashes. Thus he became a yogin.

The king- turned-yogin was handsome and charming, and he had no difficulty in begging his daily needs. Wandering the length of India, eventually he arrived in Vajrasana, where the Buddha Sakyamuni had achieved enlightenment, and there he attached himself to hospitable Dakinis, who transmitted to him their feminine insight. From Vajrasana he travelled to Pataliputra, the king's capital on the River Ganges, where he subsisted on the alms he begged and slept in a cremation ground. Begging in the bazaar one market day, he paused at a house of pleasure, and his karma effected this fateful encounter with a courtesan, who was an incarnate, worldly Dakini. Gazing through him at the nature of his mind, the Dakini said, "Your four psychic centers and their energies are quite pure, but there is a pea-sized obscuration of royal pride in your heart." And with that she poured some putrid food into his clay bowl and told him to be on his way. He threw the inedible slop into the gutter, whereupon the Dakinis, who had been watching him go, shouted after him angrily, "How can you attain nirvana if you're still concerned about the purity of your food?"

The yogin was mortified. He realized that his critical and judgmental mind was still subtly active; he still perceived some things as intrinsically more desirable than others. He also understood that this propensity was the chief obstacle in his progress to Buddhahood. With this realization he went down to the River Ganges and began a twelve year sadhana to destroy his discursive thought-patterns and his prejudices and preconceptions. His practice was to eat the entrails of the fish that the fishermen disemboweled, to transform the fish-guts into the nectar of pure awareness by insight into the nature of things as emptiness.

The fisherwomen gave him his name, Luipa, which means Eater of Fish-guts. The practice which gave him his name also brought him power and realization."

Where they get their fiber from?

Dear Advaitaji,



May you give any references?

Dear Openmind,

This is not the proper way for a devotee. Krishna says in Gita that wherever you have to do, do it for Krishna. When I have to eat, I try to remember of Krishna, when I have to take bath, I try to remember Krishna. Why I can´t do this when doing sex?

Well, the answer is right there in the gItA: if you wish to dedicate your sex life to Krishna, then produce progeny in accordance with the principles of dharma. All the tikakaras who comment on the issue say that dharmAviruddha-kAma means sex for progeny.

I want to play GTA on PlayStation2 for Krishna.

What is the harm in remembering Krishna at all times?

Of course you can remember Krishna at all times, but dedicating things to him is another thing.

So are there no harm in doing sex and thinking about Sri Sri Radha-Krishna?

Basically, no. In practice, depends on how you think of them.

There is also no harm in smoking pot and thinking about Radha and Krishna.

In his tika on Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.120, discussing seva aparadha, Sri Jiva Gosvami quotes the Varaha Purana, saying krtva nidhuvanam tatha. Doing deity service after having committed sex. The term of three days is not mentioned there, but it is obvious one cannot just enter into the deity room straight after coition.

The coolest link of the day:

http://www.goldenliontemple.org/baba/twelfth.htm

And all along you thought there were only eleven...

Oh my goodness! I thought monkey on a stick had some juicy stuff... We have a real life doomsday cultist in our midst! Wow, another grand contribution to the colorful results of Gaudiya teaching coming west. Just take a look at that prophecy page for some good laughs. This cracks me up!

Just for fun, here's another doosey: http://nehke.wisewisdoms.com/

But I think this fellow is serious, unlike our NEHKE, who BTW seems to have gone underground again. Must be the GBC trying to hunt him down again.

Oh my lord. That is amazing.



Talk about turning a name on its head! And poor old Krsna Kripa Dasi must have felt terrible for getting a name so devoid of acknowlegement and profound meaning.

The I, Me, Mine factor seems to be running amok there.