Hridayananda Maharaj - Does playing Bach consitute falldown?

The latest IRM newsletter contains a diatribe against Hridayananda Maharaj, the main thrust of which seems to be that he is eating chocolate and playing Bach on his keyboard.


Pretty petty, it seems to me.

This is ridiculous - never got drunk or high of this stuff. This is fanatic extremism and simply untrue.

Well, there is certainly discomfort out there over his devotional standards in general, people feel he is slipping a bit too far into the twilight zone with his bermuda-shorts and heritage money in his Beverly Hills villa. Perhaps not the twilight zone of a rank-and-file devotee, but certainly the twilight zone of a renunciate-guru.

But I do eat chocolate too, and I think Mozart was pretty good. But at least I don't wear bermuda-shorts!

I've often thought that if you went around a random sample of ISKCON devotees and asked them to name five GBC resolutions, the banning of chocolate would probably be one of the few that is remembered. Talk about getting out of touch with priorities, what to speak of reality.

What is most unnerving to me about the neo-sannyasin is that it often seems to involve a kind of ardha-kukkuti-nyaya*, where you get to express/find/be yourself but in a situation where your feedback from the world, both social and practical, is not normal. In marriage you get feedback, you have to enter a give-and-take, you suffer; in maintaining a family or house, you need to work, to battle, to suffer. There is a balance to it all that is (hopefully) purifying as again and again you are taught that you are not the swami and that there is a price to pay for each pleasure. As a sannyasi outside the bounds of prescribed sannyasa duties the danger is that you may take to enjoyable or comfortable activities but there is no counterbalance, no work, no suffering. You may become the prototype enjoyer, a connoisseur, instead of a sage.

...OK, maybe I'm just envious.

* the logic of the half-hen: the farmer only wants to maintain the back half of the hen as that is what produces the eggs, whereas the mouth requires food, and thus, expenditure.

I am sure you meant this as a joke and it certainly does not apply to you, dear Braja, but generally I do believe that most of this Guru-bashing and Swami-bashing that takes place is only done out of envy, either by those who have failed to follow the regs themselves, or those who have to work hard for their daily bread and don't get fancy donations from their worshipers like the Gurus/sadhus/swamis/babajis, without having to work for it.

I think Braja's comments are very astute. I am at this very moment feeling "the price" to be paid. So expect the following comments to be very pessimistic. My cup gets half-empty quickly.

Some people by their karma are in the position to be dilettantes. Philosophy and theology are indulgences of the leisure class. If you are struggling to survive, finer theological points certainly seem that way. The sannyasi would "pay" for his leisure to do bhajan by reducing the spending side of the ledger to as close to zero as humanly possible. If the income side is artificially inflated, then the situation becomes unreal as Braja described.

So, like him, I can easily relate to the feelings of envy. Why should I, who would be so worthy of the freedom to pontificate like a Hridayananda, suffer and slave for others? And yet, I have to assign the blame on Krishna: If he thought I were worthy, would he not have given me that freedom? And why have I not seized the initiative and somehow made my fortune in the spirit of the American dream?

And what am I doing here, pretending I have leisure when reality has its face pressed to my glass house?

Was? Mozart IS good. Almost as good as chocolate.

What these envious persons mostly forget is that the Swamis, Sadhus and Gurus have to be celibate, or put on a show of celibacy, which is almost as hard as being celibate itself, plus they have to take the karma of their disciple-donors. Plus they have to hear all the mundane crap-problems their grihastha donors are hassling them with and solve these petty little problems as a counsellor.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

One aspect which I find devotees tend to miss, which again is rather stunning considering our theology, is that devotees don’ trade in their person at initiation or conditioning. As one matures in bhajan and service to the Guru and Vaisnavas these aspects may lesson or become purified but not necessarily disappear. Obviously when speaking of those who accept the responsibility of Guru we do, and should, hold them to a particular standard. However I find that most, due to a lack of examples of what a Guru looks, feels and sounds like project a rather rigid sense of what it looks like. It tickles me to hear many profess in one thought that ACBSP was the greatest Guru and then in the next sentence crtique someone for not being of the standard of ACBSP. Makes me want to say "Make up your mind... is ACBSP the ideal or the minimum standard?"

I have a few thoughts about this. First in regards to the “they call this Sanyassa?” questions… remember these were and still to some degree are rather young men both physically and spiritually to be of the renounced order. If you look at the both HDG and SDG they were given Sanyassa in 1972 while in the first 4-6 years of their spiritual life. Think about that. They didn’t accept Sanyassa out of a mature resignation of material life nor viraha, or separation of their beloved as Advaita so insightfully pointed out (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=1576&&st=75&hl=). They accept Sanyassa as a sacrifice to the Guru, his wishes and preaching. Some may say that there desire was tainted by immaturity or ambition which to a point may be true but you can’t ignore the sacrifice and surrender to ACBSP’s movement these individuals made.

Even in respects to being Guru most see it as a service to ACBSP. Is this philosophically correct? Absolutley, 100%. Now obviously one still needs to meet certain qualifications but remember that both BSST and ACBSP sometimes took heavy risks in order to preach. ACBSP did it in so many ways especially Sanyassa; how many of his Sanyassa disciples still render devotional service, what to speak of remain in Sanyassa? The point is that ACBSP, like BSST, worked with what he had in spreading his movement which were/are unconventional in may respects. Like BSST I think ACBSP was to resigned to "leave it in the hands" of Krsna, knowing full well, like he did when giving Sanyassa to men in their twenties, that some would sink and some would swim. Either way they would make advancement as it was/is a sacrifice to Guru, Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

I must admit I chuckle when someone says that these Sanyassi’s and Guru’s are “just after followers”? Jagat posted early on in his SDG post that he wouldn’t wish such a service on anyone. If someone thinks that being a parent to thousands, or even 10 individuals, and having to be their ideal in every respect and being asked by many to tell them what to wear, eat, where to live, who to marry, how to shower, if it is ok to eat fruit “washed by karmis”, etc to be something that anyone would do out of pure motive and ambition... well go and give it a try. It may tickle ones fancy for a year or two but after that it is going to be a sacrifice. Anything but the country club most make it out to be.

Also like Jagat pointed out these harshest critics are generally those who have turned out to be anything but disciples and servants of their supposed Guru and Acaryas mission. I must admit when I hear these individuals attack others I often want to request them that when they can actually follow the vows given to them by their Guru for a year, what to speak of 30+ years, then I will find their critiques of the individuals heart and motives to at least, be coming from a qualified critic. Yet the fact is the majority of these individuals can’t, don’t and don’t even attempt to live to the standards their Guru requested of them nor perform any selfless service for their mission or society. Most even make jokes about how useless they are in this regard without remembering that they are not just breaking rules but dishonoring a relationship. An individual in this circumstance should be the most humble not the most outspoken.

Personally I hope that ISKCON and other societies learn from these mistakes. ACBSP did many unprecedented and risky things but he was also practical. I think he would change much of what he did 28-34 years ago for two reasons. The first is that much was done to establish and grow the society worldwide which was accomplished. The second, and most important, is that many disciples were either put, or put themselves, in a position to fail and I don’t believe ACBSP would continue to allow that to happen for the well being of his disciples.

Anyhow most of what I am saying is obviously a subjective viewpoint and somewhat of a ramble.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

If anything, my admiration for Hridayananda Maharaj has gone up a notch knowing that he can play Bach. And to say that Bach "didn't believe in God" (if that is what Prabhupada said) or insinuate it, as IRM does, is beyond contempt.

Let me say this: If you cannot appreciate the way other people worship God, or even their secular achievements (which are ultimately the products of God's grace), then your own worship is a sham, the hallmark of the grossest neophyte.

Perhaps those who have achieved great things can belittle the achievements of others. I personally have so much difficulty accomplishing anything in this life, and Mahaprabhu's grace always seems so out of my reach, that I can only bow down to any manifestation of Krishna's vibhuti-yoga, wherever it appears.

yad yad vibhUtimad sattvam zrImad Urjitam eva vA
tat tad evAvagaccha tvaM mama tejo'Mza-sambhavam

Never mind Bach, anyone who can play anything on the piano is way ahead of me...

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I have "Mary had a little lamb" down... for some daksina I can teach (head sway left to right)... yes, yes you come and I show you...

Aspiring to serve Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Bach was groovey....

I cannot tolerate Bach Bashing by any means and would take diksha into his lineage if it was found to still be intact.

As far as Hyday is concerned....

'Lack of Love' increases desire for Chocolate goodies!

What about "Your love is better than chocolate..." But I heard that a poll of women found that a large percentage prefered chocolate to sex.



But not Cadbury's, puh-leeze.

IS. And always will...

I would have to agree with Jagat on the pettiness of the IRM commentary on Hridayananda Maharaja. I've never met anyone who fell down from eating chocolate bars.

HDG is quite an adept keyboardist (piano, harmonium, etc.). I remember when he was going to school in Harvard when I was living as a student in Boston. Aside from his doctoral work there, his main service at the time was translating the Mahabharata (what ever happened to that?). He would occasionally have programs at his Harvard apartment and they would frequently include him leading a bhajan.

One the times he gave the Sunday feast lecture at the Boston temple, he sat down on the vyasasana and started looking around for kartalas. Instead I brought over the harmonium. He looked at me and said, "Are you serious?" I just nodded. He took the harmonium and lead a wonderful bhajan for quite sometime. In fact it may have been longer than his (in)famously short classes. After the bhajan, he gave a brief talk about the bhajana and the importance of doing bhajan and before his regular class.



I would have to agree with Rasaraja here. Granted there are some gurus/leaders like that I'm sure. HDG used to get a lot of heat regarding the "canvassing" for disciples. While in Boston during his stay, I can definitely atest to his disciples trying to canvass me. I suppose you could use "the disciple represents the mood of the guru" argument, but I'm not so sure. It got to the point where they would "strongly" encourage me to ask "Arcaryadeva" to give me topics to write my college papers on (my major was mass communications with an emphasis on audio production) and tell me how much HDG liked me before we had even met. Despite this I had several personal meetings with HDG and never got the impression that he himself was the origin of this canvassing. I even asked him once about approaching a guru - a perfect chance for him to pounce if he was going to. He just a matter of factly replied, "Just continue chanting and hearing and a relationship with someone will naturally develop."

Granted not all of my experiences with HDG and his disciples in particular were all cheery and roses, but that would mainly be nitpicking. For whatever faults he may or may not have, I have to say that I like HDG.

Right on!

Never published any work of substance, despite all the money from around the world invested in his projects. His iskcon official 10th Canto is being ditched due to his eminent fall from the sannyasa status. Or so rumor has it. No use to ask him directly about any of this. "Rumor" is his term of choice these days. But he is nevertheless a charmer to some. And Bach plays on while a few Marys lead the lambs...

I subscribe to all of this full-heartedly.

With me it happened too, that I feel more respect for HDG now, for understanding Baroque religious sentiments thru its music, even though it is perhaps a bit much on the aishvarya side... but certainly befitting the Iskcon-style of worship.

If ACBS said what he said about music, it seems to have come from complete ignorance. I remember a description by Ravindranath Tagore who was deeply touched when he heard a lady play a piece for piano or harpsicord at a reception for him in Germany. He could not have imagined so much feeling being expressed by Europeans, in such dignified manner.

On this general theme, that has perhaps been running for a week across various threads, I'd like to add an anecdote and comment:

A couple of years back I was working on a sannyasi's computer and I came across some recently downloaded pornography. (Note: it was no one who has been discussed on this forum). He immediately closed the computer and gave me a reason why he didn't need me to help him any more.

I did not reveal this to anyone and felt that there was no need to. His situation was obviously a difficult one--his role, psychology and service did not gel with his sensuality. I didn't feel any urge to report him or pass the information around in public as I could both sympathize with his position and as I did not want to cause him further pain.

My attitude to him as an individual differs from my attitude to the role of sannyasa however. While I have no qualms with an individual forging their own path, finding a comfortable position from which to engage in bhakti, the wider ramifications also need to be looked at. And for that, I personally am thankful for the Ed Bryants, Jagats, Finn Madsens, Brighus, etc.--all those who offer an analysis, a status report, a comparison between what was expected and what happened. Sooner or later, the institution's leaders and objective thinkers (brahmans, sannyasis?) need to stand up and say, "It's not working! WHY?"

If a sannyasi needs to play Bach, watch movies, have a girlfriend, or whatever, that is fine. But rather than redefine sannyasa, how about redefining the process that lead to him taking sannyasa? How about looking at the larger picture now that the results are in and saying, "Hey, it seems like a hell of a lot of people were unable to attain (or maintain) either material or spiritual success by this process. Does something need to change"? Without that, we may end up with The Society of Riven Clouds.

Of course, some already have their explanation--they weren't sincere, they disobeyed Prabhupada (and his ritvik system), they offended my guru maharaja, they are institutionalized aparadha, etc., but personally I think we all share in this together and much is to be learned, no matter ones affiliation. As nIca-jAti many of us have more in common with the failed attempts, modifications and embarassments than we do with knowing the solution.

Right. That's what I thought. I remember BTG would publish excerpts of his translations, but as far as I know that is all that has come of it. Can't say that I was particularly into those excerpts. Were there any reviews on this work, despite not being formally published?

I haven't heard that about his SB translations. Not exactly sure what I think about that. May get back to you on that one. Would definitely be a precarious situation.

As far as rumors go, who can say? I've heard many things about HDG in the past couple of years that either make my eyes roll or think wtf (pardon) or both. No need to repeat them as I'm sure everyone here has already heard them.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I hope the sources of these rumors are more concerned with their own spiritual lives then they seemed to be for yours. Why are you wasting everyones time with this bunk as well as risking your spiritual life? Why don't you either ask HDG if any of this is true or simply move on? Is it that hard to write HDG and ask him as opposed to write about rumors on an internet forum where these rumors can;t be confirmed or denied?

If people spent as much time chanting the holy name and purifying their mind to embrace the Vaisnavas and scripture's as they do devulging what rumors they have heard or wish to be true just how much more advanced would our community be?

Maybe if the individuals who make such an issue of what they perceive to be the faults of others should have their own lives, spiritual maturity, history and advancement put under the microscope. Any takers?

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Lindor from Lindt is very good. For me the best Swiss chocolate. Walmart has it in the U.S.

If anyone ever comes to Europe, I offer myself to give them a tour of Swiss Chocolate factories, Nestlé and others. I grew up next to one, so I am not that hot on chocolate myself.

If I had the choice between Cadbury's and Hershey's, I would pick Cadbury's any day.

With all the Nickel it contains that it does not melt?

Better avoid eating any in India. It is poisonous like most edibles in India.

I have mooved on.
Apparantly Hrdayananda is in denial, just as you, apparantly, are. He has been spoken to, but denies some facts. Personally I am not the least concerned whether certain details in these rumors are true or not (so to satisfy my curiosity), but I have received information, and have in fact been asked to divulge such, for the "exposing" type of take. However, personally I am concerned that this man needs help, just as much as the one with the headaches and the depressed one need. I genuinely am concerned. At this point in my life I am emotionally neutral in relation to past guru relationships but am grateful to Hrdayananda's contribution to my spiritual life and would like to reciprocate in some way.

According to some sources he has attempted to communicate to the GBC his desire to be officially relieved of his sannyasa position, be allowed to take a wife (?) and remain as guru and GBC. Apparantly he has been denied such by his fellow GBC's and thus, meanwhile, just waits. My feeling is that he could use some help. Not from someone like me though, but from a friend, a mature godbrother perhaps?

Anyway, at least his followers, many of them, would be relieved from a mature outcome of the present situation. Some close friends of mine who still remain as his disciples affirm that they are just waiting too, and if it comes to that, they will accept him just the same as a householder. No rejection. Some has already pledged to add the picture of the wife on the altar next to the guru's. Guru Ma sort of thing, I guess. People want to move on, trust me...

The board of that org needs help, or the ones following such boards need to be encouraged to take mature steps themselves, not look for approval with Mummy and Daddy for the rest of their lives. Let him be a nice grihasta guru.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I am not in denial; I just find your sepculation on the rumors and their validity and reasoning, in a setting where most don't have any clue on the standing of HDG or any insight into his situation, to be fruitless and a distraction from the purpose of our spiritual lives.

I agree that if he needs marriage to be healthier in his life than he should move that way. Discussions on this type of situation I think would be a good thing but on a particular person and the rumors that abound... that is a different story.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Harikesa also asked the GBC for permission to marry, but was denied this.

To be honest, then the number of times that I have eaten chocolate in the past year can be counted on a hand or two. I never felt that it did anything good for my system. I prefer things like dates, etc.

Cadbury's is not great, but around here it is mostly Cadbury's or Hershey's and Hershey's is just not good.

People say there was a BBT meeting recently where they discussed removing his names from those books.

14 years before he kicked the ass of these .... same people who aske permission now. Took him a while to get sick enough.

That I have heard, rather than throwing out his work outright.

Rather 1984ish. Erase the unpleasant past.

I would look into a good edit. I had not read it before as it is not in the old Folio, which I have. Now that the portions Hridayananda Maharaj and Gopipranadhana did are available online, I have been making use of them. (Currently working on 10.7-9 for something on Yashoda.) I find that many of the verses are poorly edited; though mostly correct, lacking in poetry. The commentaries are used very selectively, but not really with any great insight.

Hate to be negative again, but it looks like a rush job. They did not want Pradyumna to do because it may have taken him a week to do a couple of verses. It would have been worth it, I am sure. They figured he was being too intellectual, a bharavahi, "an ass carrying a load of books around on his back."

Are you talking about the actual Sanskrit text or the translations?

Ok, Rasaraj das, the reason discussions need to take place is because INDIVIDUALS need help.

Whatever the details that are involved in their present situations have taken background importance, but the details, taken as a whole, form the problem. And that need to be addressed in the discussion. It is all connected.

If they were all married and happy, or renounced and happy, there would be no need for discussion. Correct?

It was my impression that it came to the point where something had to change or he would simply break into pieces. Harikesa must have suffered a lot. I am happy for him that he is now able to move on in life in a more wholesome manner.

Orewellian is right.


I had heard that HDG was writing some lengthy commentary, etc. and people were accusing him of trying to be like ACBSP, so they made him nix/he withdrew a lot work. I also heard that HDG waylaid a lot of work Gopipranadhana had done. What that means exactly is anyone's guess.

I definitely would have been interested in seeing a Pradyumna SB.

What about Sridhara Swami (the medieval one, that is), Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti? I heard an English translation is coming out of Visvanatha's 10th canto tika, though I havent seen it yet. Anyone has?

I would like to see those too!

I was merely referring to a "modern" translation and commentary. Pradyumna's methodology and take would have been interesting to see. That's all.

The English. Translations and commentaries.


That does not surprise me. So why not just do another, real version that is his own?

Edwin Bryant has recently done a 10th canto translation. Anyone seen that?

I don't think Pradyumna is that into it any more. But I was surprised to see that he wrote an article in the new volume (see book review forum). I'll be interested to see that.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I have a copy of Sarartha Darsini which is Tenth Canto commentaries of Sril Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura which was translated by Srila Bhanu Swami and Edited and published by Srila Mahanidhi Swami. I believe this is "hot off the press"

I havent started reading it yet.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I don't disagree with the need to discuss. I simply think we should discuss what we know as opposed to what we think someone knows to be true. If need to pull from real life examples there are plenty that are out in the open and resolved (i.e. Rohini Suta das) which is much more of a concrete discussion point than discussing what may or may not be someones situation (i.e. HDG). Again i agree that the issue is one that we should discuss as it will have a tremendous impact on the future of Vaisnavism.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I suspect the key is in the "(indistinct)" in the supposed quote of Swami B.V. Swami.

Do you really believe that a man who acknowledged his appreciation of Charlie Chaplin would demean Bach? I don't -- at least not without further clear evidence.

well Rasaraja das, this thread happens to be called "Hrdayananda Maharaj", so I thought we would be talking abou him. He tells some funny jokes, want to hear?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

My friend Trivikrama das does an excellent HDG imitation including jokes, classes and the such. he really is quiet excellent at it. Rathi, have you ever expereince Triv's transormation into HDG? Classic.

Your point about it being a HDG thread is well taken. I guess my only response is let's keep the talk to what is confirmed and "out in the open". Have a etrrific night!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Oh, Lord. On more than one occasion have Trivikrama and I have bursted into impressions of our favorite devotees. Favorite being a loose term here. His impression of HDG is one of his better ones. Definitely a classic. I swear if I had a video of him doing it, I would post it in a second.

Dandavats. ALl glories to the Vaisnavas.

Yes, he definetly has HDG down pat. Seriously he can give a class as HDG and somehow he takes up Maharajas quick wit at the same time. Strange experience. He is coming to stay with us for a few days so I will get a recording and post it.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Make sure to send the popcorns and chocolates, please….

Especial services for "sannyasis" addicted to chocolates and other goodies...


Beverly Hills-cop.jpg

Are you joking? Comparing appreciation for Charlie Chaplin with the same for Johann Sebastian Bach? Anyone can appreciate Chaplin; there is no great genius or even insight required for that. I doubt that Swami Swami ever sat down to listen to a few compositions by Bach, let alone hear an organ concerto on a renowned Baroque organ in a sacred space itself. He might have reversed his org-ideas, and differentiated his black-and-white perception ("four-legs-good, two-legs-bad") of what constitutes reality and how to cultivate a life worth living.

Even if he did say something positive about it: did it come from deeper understanding? And for whom would this have any significance? Only for believers who need "authorization" before they dare to parrot it.

I hold Hridayananda Swami's venture into Baroque music as a higher type of realization, precisely if he did not see it "authorized" by the Super-Ego (Über-Ich) of the org. At least he has a faint reflection of authenticity left in his repertoire of self-expression.

This is what happens when Americans, Germans, etc try to become Indians, eating only Indian food, listening only to Indian music and wearing only Indian clothes. It simply does not work and it will never work. This "Lets become Indians" hysteria is just a trip of the ego. I have to say that ACBS perhaps should have left his Indian culture at home, where it belongs, bringing us only the essence, devotion and spiritual understanding that is always transcendental to externals. And if someone wants to become an Indian, let them go to India. I wonder how long they will stay there. None of the Western devotees could ever manage to become Indians, even though many had tried. It is so saddening when people are not able to realize the presence of God, harmony and beauty in music like Beethoven or Bach, simply because Beethoven was not running around in dhotis and he did not play the sitar. I consider it a kind of racism and discrimination when ACBS claims that Indian culture is the only culture, Western culture is just worthless rubbish. It reminds me of the British invaders in India, who very often considered Indians as black barbarians, savages with a primitive culture based on superstitions. I really dont like this attitude: "I have come to your country to tell you that you are all rakshasas and rascals, your culture is worthless, your clothes are inferior, your food is inferior, your philosophers are inferior, your poets are inferior, your music is inferior etc., so you have to adopt my culture, my clothes, my food and my music because these are superior." Anyone can say whatever they want, this is just tasteless.

I did not say that appreciation for the two is "the same." I said I did not believe that someone praising Chaplin could condemn Bach. Someone who could acknowledge the value of the "popular culture" figure Chaplin would have no serious standing to object to the far more worthy Bach. That is all.

Looking foreward to some good clean jokes here. Not practical jokes of the org-kind, just jokes to get a good laugh.

Don't know about Beethoven, but I know Bach was a deeply religious man. However, we must see things in their spiritual perspective. We are not impersonalists. Krishna has His form, attributes, names and abode. Rupa Gosvami has spoken of uddipan vibhava, excitations for remembering Krishna. Certainly music that contains the names, qualities and pastimes of Krishna will be more conducive to remembering Him than the music of Bach. And Indian? Well Krishna did appear in India, you know, as did all the personalities of Godhead, including even Buddha. Music connects you to its source and awakens certain thoughts and sentiments. Having been in India, particularly in Vraja will be a great help for you to understand this, O.M.

Yes and he holds on to it like a celebrity.
It certainly is an ornating feature in that man that he is moved by quality musical experience, and I suspect that he knows he is admired for that and so it inspires him to sort of show off. As a physician, you should know that this might be just a symptom he is treating there. His real therapy might be, as Advaitadas suggests, get in touch with his "brjabasi" self. You speak of realization. Some realization is there but "higher"? Higher than what? Even Chaplin could be considered higher than what has being going on in the "org". I suspect that when the music stops you for one would be pretty disappointed at some people's realizations.

Adwaita:
I absolutely agree with what you wrote about Indian devotional music. I love it myself, especially traditional bhajans. What I do not agree with is the fanatical concept that ONLY Indian music is allowed to listen to, otherwise you are in maya.

The ragas celebrating Krsna-lila are of Persian origin.

The horrible noise that some Bengalis in Vraja make at aratis (I am talking about the use of those horrible bell metal gongs), cannot be music, even if it was once connected with something like love.

Most other music-like offerings, are semi-spontaneous. In as far as they are connected to harmonium-playing, I'd like to remind everyone that the harmonium is an Indian adaptation of the Protestant type organ, nothing Indian at all.

There is nowadays of course rock music that speaks about Krishna. I have not heard much of it, back in the 1970s it started I remember, though I personally cannot say it stimulated my Vraja-consciousness. Again, having been in Vraja changes a lot and matters a lot. My whole point is that culture cannot be entirely eliminated in developing Krishna consciousness.

That is correct, it was brought to India in the 19th century by the Salvation army. But I think it sounds great, if properly played. Moreover, all these 'transcendental' dishes we know, like puris, halva, samosas, kacuris, raita, koftas and pakoras, are either Turkish or Persian, though they are of course yummy. The Hindi language too, is mostly Arabic and Persian and even the word babaji is Arabic. I am not advocating to go all-Indian, as far as that 'Indian' is anyway all-Vedic still.

It is nice if the harmonium accompanies the singer, and not the singer tries to play showing off elaborate tunes. I feel often unhappy with the use of harmonium, if it restricts the expression of feeling in the singing.

For some reason Indians think it is beautiful to sing as high as possible. Even the cinema songs are all sung in those babylike voices so high that no normal person can reach. Why they think that is beautiful? Because Radharani is a little girl in adult standards? When kirtan is sung in those high tones, it is just sad, because what can be felt if you you have to strain your voice to impossible pitches?

Some standards of beauty, aesthetics in general, are really hard to cope with. Most Indians are half-deaf. So they need a high noise level to feel something, similar as with the Chili in the food, otherwise it is not tasty to them.

This is sheer snobbery. Next you're going to tell me that you actually like the harpsichord? I'd take a cacophonous gong any day.

I was once in kirtan with Aindra and a couple of others when he shoved the harmonium across the temple room floor, stating dramatically, "Enough of this German instrument! Give me cold, hard kartals!"

I agree that a song containing a name of Krishna gives clear rememberance, but would like to add that listening to real music (real in the sense of its being composed with a higher intent, which typically would not be Bach's music, but more towards the Romantic music of Beethoven, Brahms, where music became a vehicle for feelings, and "programmatic" expression) that that is like looking at a wonderful landscape, a scenery that speaks of its creator, where God makes him/herself present in such intensity to the soul of the onlooker, that Krsna's beauty, his real, own beauty cannot even be imagined.

I donated some kirtans from Navadvip and Radhakund to the raganuga.com site. Some of the Radhakund kirtans are a bit dull, but most of the others are, in my opinion, great uddipan vibhavas for Radha-Krishna. I have many more of such recordings, plus some lila kirtans as well. These lila kirtans, Open mind, are unfortunately unknown to people with just an Iskcon background. They do not just contain the names of Krishna but also His pastimes. In this way there are many, many nice uddipan vibhavas for Krishna, far better than Bach I believe.

I am not talking here about some adapted iskconite kirtans. I am also not talking about karatals or even gongs. I do not know how to call them, those thick flat bell metal pieces that are beaten with hammers. I always wondered why bhaktas thought them to be beautiful for the Lords on the altar. Especially if they are played without any kirtan at all, which happens often in Vraja temples.

To provoque you even more, I'd say the way temples are built and ornamented inside is not that much speaking of Krsna's beauty. The GM has a certain aesthetic standard. Some temples do have nice decorations. Others are plain gloomy.

Joy Nitai.

It is not a German instrument. It was invented in Calcutta, adapted to Indian use from the Protestant standing harmonium.

Which temples are you talking about here, Naba?
There are many beautiful temples, built in previous eras with alot of aesthetic appeal but modern day additions, and "renovations" have rendered them ugly.

Mostly Arabic and Persian? Surely Hindi has been influenced by these languages, but calling it mostly Arabic and Persian is going too far. Urdu is much more influenced by Persian.

I am talking about the "typical" non-GM Gaudiya temple, with the exception of a few with cared for design, like Radharaman where there is a special touch to be felt, and other landmark temples like in Barsana. Naturally the original Madhan Mohan Mandir is like the landmark of Vrindavan, with a definite external beauty, but does not really count because "officially" there cannot be worshiped there anymore due to the Muslim mutilation; same with Govindaji. Radha-Damodhar has a nice kind of presence because of the exuberant beauty of the vigrahas there. Closed temple forms, where you do not have an open court in front of the altar, tend to be gloomy. Obviously it is a question of money, of much money.

The gong is called Ghanta. As in the sandhya Aarti:

shankha bAje ghanta bAje madhur madhur madhur bAje.....

Beauty is, of course, in the ear of the beholder....

Can't help it: someone must be deaf to find that madhur madhur madhur
unless he hears it from afar. Then, sure, it is nice.

Bravo!

Just a note. I personally value the singer's attitude in his music rather than the reputation or image of the singer himself.

It is always important to note the devotional content of the song as well as the bhakti of the singer himself. I must admit that I find it rather ridiculous to suggest that Bach is something of an uddipana of sorts, who knows what his "qualification" was? One can say the same thing about Wagner; his music is powerful and famous but he was a violent anti-Semite and some say he was the father of Nazism.

Even in the Indian circle, I personally would not attributee much value to the works of Anup Jalota, Pankaj Udhas, Sonu Nigam, Lata Mangeshkar, or even the famous M.S. Subbulakshmi because, in my opinion, they lack devotional qualification.

Although my father is a big fan of Anup Jalota and I also listen to his stuff, I do not attribute much value to him because I have noticed that he seems to sing "anything for money," i.e. he will sing bhajans to any divinity as long as the price is right. Although he does perform at ISKCON concerts for free. The same with Sonu Nigam; now this is a guy who is a relative "newbie" on the Indian music scene. With a brilliant voice her certainly sings some good bhajans. A friend of mine who into Devi-upAsana recently lent me a tape full of bhajans to Devi sung by Sonu Nigam and I have to admit that it is very nice when you consider the aesthetic and artisitic value of his voice. But this same Nigam turns around and provides the playback music for Bollywood films, which can sometimes be sensually exciting and provocative.

I must admit that I am firmly in agreement with Bhaktivedanta Swami's opinion, and that this is an important consideration among many "spiritualists" in India. Even if such "gifts" are god-given, the true fruition of these gifts are better laid in God's service. Even Swami Sivananda of the Divine Life Ashram advised people not to watch devotional movies, since it could not be guaranteed that the actors in such movies were guaranteed to be "perfect role models" in their own personal lives. Does anyone remember Bhaktivedanta Swami's regular chastisement againt "professional Bhagavatam reciters"? It is the exact same principle at work here; use your talents in God's service and not for money, fame, profit, adoration, etc.

Check this out. Who knows if the singer was singing for money or devotion? Who can deny that the voice is full of devotion?

So I would place much more importance on a recording of Prema-bhakti-candrika by Ananta das Babaji or one of his disciples, for example, rather than something by Bach.

Having said that, I am rather partial to Beethoven's 5th Symphony myself.

The above quote is from another thread. It was my answer to Audaryalila's quesiton: "may I ask why are you so angry?"

My answer was not complete. Although I and dozens, if not hundreds, of HM's disciples, for years have been aware of his platonic involvement with his secretary, this has never posed an impediment for his permanence as guru to many. Some recent romantic developments in his life have brought attention to other activities of his, like playing non bhajan music, sporting funny looking shorts, or whatever else he is being scrutinized for but, my personal reason, and similarly that of a few close friends, for rejecting him, was because of his irresponsible guiding of some of his followers, denying us the oportunity for broader sadhu sanga. To help the guru is one thing. To sink with him helps no one.

So, Audaryalila, I am still a little angry because my daughter was refused re-entrance in an Iskcon school because I made the choice to not take HM back as guru.

I want you to know that when I tried to come to an agreement with HM he was not willing to accomodate my situation. At the time, with the approval of YOUR gurudeva, I sent Hrdayananda Maharaja the following letter (to which I never got a response):

Dear Hrdayananda Maharaja,

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Since our converstation over the phone weeks ago I felt much was left unsaid and I’ve decided it is my duty to let you know further of my feelings on the subject we spoke about. In our conversation you asked if I thought you have ever cheated me and out of respect for your position I replied that I never thought so, but the true feeling in my heart is that you are not representing Reality to your disciples. I believe you are under the influence of illusion when you advice me not to take Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s association and I find myself forced to reject your instruction. In fact, I find myself questioning the authenticity of your position altogether since I’ve found Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s writings amply inspiring, and many Vaisnavas accept his contribution as one fo extreme importance in Lord Caitanya’s movement.
It is said that the devotees are the receivers and the givers and in accordance with that rule, the flow of nectar can never be contained, least by a mistake coated with good intentions. By te grace of the Vaisnavas Srila Sridhara Maharaja is always available to anyone, and I beg of you to please consider his position many times over before you incur in another act of vaisnava aparadha.
I honestly apologize if this letter sounds insulting to you but honestly again, I don’t see it as such. I am simply questioning your standing in the face of your contradictory preaching and confusing attitude. I think at this point the best service I can offer you is to present the book enclosed, “The Heart of Krsna”, which was written by Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja. From him you recently requested an official paper of endorsement for your college preaching campaign but was denied. The reason you were denied is because you have been offending an outstanding vaisnava and your preaching therefore cannot be supported. If, however, you make the choice to glorify that vaisnava, that very choice will make you glorious and your disciples will meet good fortune again.
Thank you once more for your attention.
Your servant,
Bhaktikanda dasi

If we remain on the level, is this vaishnava guru more KC than this guru there will be a non ending eternal analysis going on. However, in the vedic tradition we find quite a lot of outstanding pure devotees of the Lord having received diksa from devotees who even openly admitted that they are less advanced on the path of bhakti. Therefore it is more important to develop your own devotional activities, your becoming attached to chant the Holy Name of the Lord etc, you yourself becoming purified. We live in this real heavy Kali yuga, what to expect? Will there be a change of the qualities of gurus? It rather could happen that a pure Vaishnava acharya will come up having received diksa from lets say a kanistha-adhikary guru. This world has become so sinful.

I am sorry but this resounds of vaguery, another vague definition of guru and guru disciple relatinoship, whipped up easily by resorting to that tiresome cliche "more KC". Does anybody even know what KC mean?

But the main interest of the subject raised here is not how one guru might compare with another, but the very fact that one who puts himself between Krsna and those seeking Him, not only isn't guru but one working against the principle. Not a matter of sin so much, I think, but of sickness.

Dear Anand,

Thank you for sharing your feelings and your heart.

My personal feeling about the Guru sisya relationship is that it should be based around love and trust and growth in Krsna consciousness. Politics don't belong in that arena. Of course, Guru and disciple are both individuals and have different ideas about various topics - but in reality Guru is one who can help you to become Krsna conscious. I also have a history with Iskcon. I chose a long time ago to be thankful for any help that I recieved which led me to focus my life on devotional service and to simply forgive any short-comings of any of those who have helped me along the way. I know many devotees who are bitter about their experiences, but I personally don't find it is helpful to hold on to anger or to resentment over disappointments. For my own growth I have found it much better to focus on things within my own person which block my progress and to seek to associate with those who encourage my continued progress.

As far as sanga goes - trying to dictate to anyone who they can and cannot associate with is simply foolish. I find the whole concept to be repugnant at best. My mother in law is a fundamentalist Christian and when she saw me reading a book on vaishnavism in her house she requested that I refrain from doing so. Since it was her house I honored her request but I also told her that what I was reading was already firmly implanted in my heart and mind and as such the only way to keep Krsna out was to kick me out. I also pointed out to her that I was simply minding my own business and wasn't trying to engage in discussion of the topics contained within the book with her or any member of her household. I also calmly told her that I find it rather silly to be so bigoted when it comes to religious expression and yet be so tolerant as to engage lovingly with an athiest or any other person who doesn't seemingly challenge her religious world view.

The reason I mentioned that incidence is because it is indicative of those who have closed minds and hearts. But honestly speaking, who can stop you from seeking that sanga that inspires your heart? The answer is that no one can.

By the way, forgiveness has to come at your own pace and I am not suggesting that you need to follow my path at all. My wife holds onto her anger and hurt feelings much longer than I do, for instance. That has more to do with our individual temperments than anything else. On a philosophical level though, I believe that it hinders progress if you can't find resolution with the past.

Just on another note I would like to add that there are flaws in just about every endeavor we undertake. Since you mentioned Sridhara Maharaja and his sanga I would guess you are familiar with his explaining how he himself took up the task of helping others. The story about his challenging the doctor that if he didn't have complete knowledge how could he pretend to practice medicine was really powerful for me because Sridhara Maharaja said he reflected on that line of reasoning and realized that it was better to help as best he could even if he wasn't perfect. I believe we should be generous with others and try to see the good in their intent even if there is some flaw in the application. I appreciate it immensely when people ackknowledge my attempts and endeavors and look past my obvious faults. As much as I want people to forgive me and embrace me, faulty as I am, how much more should I be willing to extend myself to others in a similar fashion?

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

From the diary of Srutakirti das: