Google
Web         Gaudiya Discussions
Gaudiya Discussions Archive » ISKCON, GAUDIYA MATHA ETC.
Many participants onboard share a history as members of ISKCON or Gaudiya Matha, and therefore may need to discuss related issues. Please do not use this section as a battleground, there are other forums for that purpose.

No Need To Visit The Babajis - Letter from Narayan Maharaj



Jagat - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:29:43 +0530

I thought Madhava might be interested to see this.


22nd of April 2004

Vice President of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta
Samiti and Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti Trust

My dear disciples of Alachua,

My heartly blessings are for you. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.

I received your letter and became very happy to read the contents. I am looking forward to meet with you when I come to USA and hope that you will be with me in Badger. Please know that my health is gradually improving. I will take rest up to Badger and I should be alright by the time that the festival in Badger starts. At present I am residing on the shore of the Indian Ocean in Malaysia. Today I took bath in the ocean for the first time after my operation. This is the best medicine for me.

In regard to your concerns that is shared by the devotees in Alachua, yes there is no need to go to the babajis. The fortunate living entity who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami, he has nothing to gain in Krishna consciousness by associating with the babajis. I have explained all the deviations of the babajis in Sri Prabanda Panchakam (Download PDF file). Please study this carefully with the devotees that have any doubts in this regard.

There are no special mantras to obtain from any babaji. But for those devotees who have not actually taken shelter at the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master and who are not interested to practice the process of bhajan as it has been presented by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, they must become bewildered and as a result of this they will look for a shortcut to attain the desired goal of bhava bhakti. Please do be bewildered and help all by carefully studying my classes and Sri Prabanda Panchakam. I have said everything in this booklet. We have freely distributed thousands of copies in Vrndavan 3 years ago and there has not been any reply up to this day from anyone. Not even one babaji has dared to reply.

I am very pleased to hear that you all are preaching strongly against this misconception. Please convey my heartily blessings to all the devotees in Alachua, especially to my dear darling daughter Anuradha and her lovely children.

Your ever well-wisher,
Swami B.V. Narayan
Advaitadas - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:46:23 +0530
QUOTE
We have freely distributed thousands of copies in Vrndavan 3 years ago and there has not been any reply up to this day from anyone. Not even one babaji has dared to reply.


The usual pack of lies from Narayan Maharaja. I wonder if the man can speak the truth even if he does his best, or if he has EVER spoken the truth in the last 83 years? Naturally, he must have distributed thousands of copies to his own followers and they will just say meeeeeh like good sheep and say nothing else but that. Here is a refutation by the eminent Radhakund Babaji Atul Krishna Das Babaji Maharaja. All the other 300 babajis of Radhakund have helped him compile this. I saw it with my own eyes. laugh.gif

[ I snipped out the old attachment as links to revised files are now given below. ]
Madhava - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:01:31 +0530
Yep, I saw it already. Amusing as ever.

There is an e-text of Prabandha-pancakam for download at the PureBhakti website. Inspired by Narayan Maharaja's letter, I began brushing up on my old notes. I have old reviews of the two first chapters and appendix two, the "Boycott" lecture. I'll clean them up and review the rest over the weekend. It should come to around 100 pages in A4-size. Expect to see it available for download soon.

I'll add the links to the address below as I find the time to review the rest of the text.
http://www.wisewisdoms.com/prabandhapancakam/
Madhava - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:03:18 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 22 2004, 12:16 PM)
Here is a refutation by the eminent Radhakund Babaji Atul Krishna Das Babaji Maharaja. All the other 300 babajis of Radhakund have helped him compile this. I saw it with my own eyes.  laugh.gif

And the news travel slow, I note. That text was compiled in the October of 2002, exactly one and half years ago.
Madhava - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:06:36 +0530
QUOTE(Narayan Maharaja @ Apr 22 2004, 11:59 AM)
Please do be bewildered and help all by carefully studying my classes and Sri Prabanda Panchakam.

laugh.gif
Madhava - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:27:41 +0530
Here are the revised notes on the first chapter of the text discussing sannyAsa in the gauDIya-sampradAya.

Written by Bhaktivipatti Apasiddhanti Madhava Das Baba.

http://www.wisewisdoms.com/prabandhapancakam/
Advaitadas - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:47:47 +0530
I notice that none of the 'shastras' NM quotes to justify the GM red-cloth-sannyas are quoted in or from any authorised Gaudiya Vaishnava shastra, whether these books or texts exist at all or not. He or BSS must have done a huge research to justify this practise.
Gaurasundara - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:18:56 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 22 2004, 02:17 PM)
I notice that none of the 'shastras' NM quotes to justify the GM red-cloth-sannyas are quoted in or from any authorised Gaudiya Vaishnava shastra, whether these books or texts exist at all or not.

One thing which I find highly amusing is how a common "refutation" of this point is that the anti-red injunctions refer to the red cloth worn by Saktas, and is supposedly not meant to refer to saffron.

Well if that was so, then why did Jagadananda Pandit get upset after learning that Sanatana Gosvami's cloth was from a mayavadi-sannyasi, instead of being perhaps Mahaprabhu's prasadi-cloth as he thought? It's pretty obvious that the saffron of Mahaprabhu and the saffron of this mayavadi-sannyasi were the same, so this argument about "Sakta cloth" is invalid. Its still amusing every time I hear it. rolleyes.gif Regular quoting of this explanation betrays the fact that those who employ this argument do not seem to have studied CC very well. I agree with the view of Dr. Radhagovinda Nath in this connection, about Sanatana Gosvami et al, but is that view supremely correct?

QUOTE
He or BSS must have done a huge research to justify this practise.

It is well known that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati implemented a lot of the things that he learnt from Sri Vaisnavas, ostensibly following the path of Prabhodananda Sarasvatipada. blink.gif
Advaitadas - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:27:52 +0530
QUOTE
One thing which I find highly amusing is how a common "refutation" of this point is that the anti-red injunctions refer to the red cloth worn by Saktas, and is supposedly not meant to refer to saffron.


Not just that, but there is also a positive injunction that one should follow the Gosvamis as the role model vrajaloka in Visvanath Cakravartipad's tika of BRS 1.2.295, and since the Gosvamis wore white there is no excuse for wearing saffron, red, ochre, crimson, orange, wine-red, chestnut brown or ruddy cloth. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
I agree with the view of Dr. Radhagovinda Nath in this connection, about Sanatana Gosvami et al, but is that view supremely correct?


Remind us of his comment.
RasaMrita - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:41:18 +0530
Closer to the Origanal Letter From: ISKCON WATCH
Jagat - Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:45:49 +0530
Does this last post add anything besides Isa's name?
RasaMrita - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:01:55 +0530
Ok. Always my humility play the best with me. No comments.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:16:15 +0530
Radhe!

oh man, it just blows my mind.

somehow i still like Srila Narayana Maharaja, but this letter gives me again
the creeps!

again, ALL babajis are considered to be unworthy.

this is so SAD!
crying.gif
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:49:05 +0530
Certainly there is a problem here for those who have some loving feelings and gratitude to Narayan Maharaj for the positive things he has done for their spiritual life. Then they read something like this, they are naturally puzzled by the apparent narrowmindedness of the person they look up to.

So how to react? I wouldn't worry about it too much, though the situation is one that presents certain real challenges. Krishna is the Guru in your heart and ultimately he will show you how to deal with this challenge--whether you have courage to act or not, you will always find your own appropriate level.

Narayan Maharaj is protecting his sangha, which is certainly an important value. Each time we become part of a sangha--i.e., followers of a spiritual master and companions of other sajatiya devotees--we develop a network of important relationships that support and provide energy to our spiritual endeavors.

Though everyone is an individual, the starting point for all thinking is categories. We identify a particular category or set of categories and try to relate experience to them. The starting point of the guru-disciple relationship is that this is a relation that has been "made in Heaven." God sends an individual with a particular adhikara to a particular guru with the tools to help that individual cultivate spiritual life.

Both the guru and the disciple should start from the point that because this relationship (or set of relationships, because there are godbrothers and sisters involved) has been given by God, it should be protected. Just as a marriage counsellor always starts from the beginning point that the marriage should be saved, we always start from the beginning point of saving the guru-disciple relationship. The deeper our implication, the more there is to save.

The Vaishnava Guru wants you to develop your love for the Divine Couple. The disciple's goal is not to become a member of a sectarian group in this world, nor is this the spiritual master's goal for his disciple. This complex of relationships is a springboard to love for the Divine Couple.

You want the association of transcendental devotees who love Radha and Krishna, but in this particular instance, the Gaudiya Math guru's way of thinking is that the path shown by Saraswati Thakur is superior to the way of the Babajis. But if his goal is love for Radha and Krishna then why should associating with devotees of Radha and Krishna be an obstacle?

I think that Narayan Maharaj is trying to protect his disciples from hearing criticism of the Gaudiya Math and his Guru Varga. What is worse for the disciple--to hear about Krishna and also to hear Guru-ninda, or not to hear about Krishna at all?

Just like you, if you come here to this site and hear negative things about your guru varga, this might cause you to feel doubts and disrupt your spiritual practice.

But ultimately, the Guru is in your heart and directing you from there. If Guru gives apparently contradictory instructions ("Love Radha, but don't love her devotees"), you have to take it as a test, like Krishna telling the gopis to go back to their husbands.

So, the upshot is this: Keep your faith in all your guru varga. Don't indulge in Guru-ninda. If Guru appeared to you as Narayan Maharaj, that is Krishna's appearance and must be recognized as such. But don't lose sight of the essence.

And exercise great care.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:57:30 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 22 2004, 07:19 PM)
Just like you, if you come here to this site and hear negative things about your guru varga, this might cause you to feel doubts and disrupt your spiritual practice.

Strange as it may sound, when I first became exposed to discussions on such matters and developed subsequent doubts, the effect was quite the opposite of what you describe. This unveiling was followed by a period of contemplation during which I used to chant between one to two lakhs daily, and with each passing day my faith in the status quo grew weaker, and in direct proportion to that fresh inspiration and insight evolved. Granted, such dedicated practice is not something I could maintain in the long run for both practical and inner reasons, not for the time being anyway, but an interesting effect nevertheless.
RasaMrita - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:58:43 +0530
QUOTE(TarunKishordas @ Apr 22 2004, 06:46 PM)
Radhe!

oh man, it just blows my mind.

somehow i still like Srila Narayana Maharaja, but this letter gives me again
the creeps!

again, ALL babajis are considered to be unworthy.

this is so SAD!
crying.gif

Perhaps, is the influence of the Malasyan's waters. Where is Radha Kund, Giri govardhan, the dust of Vrindaban? Where they have gone?

Meanwhile, I have never proclaim to be a giver of prema? At least, not yet.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:04:38 +0530
QUOTE
So, the upshot is this: Keep your faith in all your guru varga. Don't indulge in Guru-ninda. If Guru appeared to you as Narayan Maharaj, that is Krishna's appearance and must be recognized as such. But don't lose sight of the essence.


nice points, dear Jagat.

but i am far too weak to follow this.

nice points from Madhava, too.

i guess that i am just very deeply in maya.

crying.gif
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:10:30 +0530
QUOTE
If Guru appeared to you as Narayan Maharaj, that is Krishna's appearance


if this is so,
why is Krisana saying to me:
"Dont read the books of Srila Ananta das Babaji, dont associate,..."

ok, i am a hypocrate. then this means:
"Tarun, low adhikar, you dont go to the nectar!"

i am refering not to the verses about Radhika´s breasts /underwear....

what about the basics?
"No, Tarun", Krishna in the form of SNM says, "no book by any babaji!"

and i sit here behind the frigging screen, before the Lord´s picture, and
i am feeling miserable with no answer.

crying.gif

and right, Krishna in the form of SNM gives clear instructions: " nothing to do with the babajis".
no way to sneak around that.
even if he would allow me personally, which he never would, i would feel CHEATED:
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:24:28 +0530
If Krishna has at one point in time chosen to appear to you in the form of a certain person as guru, I suppose he could at a later time choose to stop appearing to you in that form, too. If you cannot perceive the interference and guidance of Krishna in a person, no matter how sincerely you try, then I fail to see what else you could conclude but the fact that Krishna is telling you to leave for an abhisAra to meet with Him under more favorable circumstances, in a new disguise. Far away from that cranky Jatila!
Hari Saran - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:48:37 +0530
QUOTE
So, the upshot is this: Keep your faith in all your guru varga. Don't indulge in Guru-ninda. If Guru appeared to you as Narayan Maharaj, that is Krishna's appearance and must be recognized as such. But don't lose sight of the essence.

And exercise great care.


Indeed that is a nice advice; however, it is still puzzling.

That sounds “A Real Battle of Kuruksetra inside one’s mind….”

ohmy.gif
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:50:09 +0530
QUOTE
A Real Battle of Kuruksetra inside one’s mind…


yep, horrible.
nabadip - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:51:43 +0530
Tarunji, I heard a simile once, and you might have heard it too, that says we are marching in the dark of night, and just know sunrise is ahead, even though we do not see any of it yet. So we just go on step by step, knowing that the sun will rise, and know every step as a continuation of the previous one. We are not jumping from one to another, but going with gradual steps. So many people have guided me in that darkness and are still doing. In my heart I know that there is a continuum between those different persons that guide me along my path, even though the individuals might not agree. In the heart it is adjusted; and I am not misusing my freedom to go ahead, I just march on because it is the nature of my path. And I have no choice, attraction pulls me there.

There is an example in Sri Ramadas Babaji who at first was a follower of Sri Jagabhandu (Dr. Mahanambrata Brahmachari who went to Chicago in the 30ies is in his line). When he met with Sri Radharaman Charan das Babaji (of Nitai-Gaur, Radhe-Shyam fame; Dr. Kapoorji is in his line) he was attracted to him and became his disciple. For him it was a continuation of divine revelation. So it was also for Dr. Kapoorji who was originally with Sri Bhaktisiddhanta. On a micro-level there is some pain involved, some rupture, a development, a decision, but on the macro-level it is a continuum of Sri Krsna's presence, a presence making himself known to you. Just allow yourself to feel the guidance. And be happy with it. Trust and go ahead step by step, even though in darkness of the night.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 02:01:59 +0530
Dear nabadipa,
thanks a thousand.
nice points and very encouraging.

honestly, so many times i told myself to follow SNM instructions and i put away everything of "the babajis" (in my case the books, texts, pathas of Srila Ananta das Babaji), and after a certain time, i find myself longing for his association (Baba´s).

i cannot imagine selling his books and never read them again or forget about him.
thoughts like this kill my heart....

guess i have to listen to my heart tomorrow morning and pray
for a wonder in sleep
biggrin.gif
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 02:06:07 +0530
Yes, this is the challenge. There has to be conflict; something has to be given up for something else to be gained.

It's what we call "upping the ante" in poker-talk. The bigger the ante, the harder it is to keep placing your bets; you want to fold and give up. But if you fold, you can't win the pot. Can't win the lottery without buying a ticket.

The Gaudiya Math ups the ante constantly. They keep threatening you with eternal damnation, rejecting the guru, inevitable falldown ("Haven't all the Raganuga people just become ordinary householders, armchair devotees, dry speculators, fantasists?"). This is good. It means that the price is going up, the value of what you will gain or lose, the meaningfulness of the decision all become inflated.

This means that when you make a decision one way or the other (the decision will ultimately have to be made), it will be accompanied by a significant psychic charge, which we are choosing to call samskara. Your melted brain will be ready to receive new imprints of bhakti that will change its shape forever.

The milk turns to yogurt and never goes back.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 02:15:01 +0530
QUOTE
Your melted brain will be ready to receive new imprints of bhakti that will change its shape forever.


yo, my brain is heavily melted.
its 11 pm here and i am going to visit brother sleep.

thanks to @ll!

face the challenge Tarun-wimp!
biggrin.gif
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:35:59 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 22 2004, 11:19 AM)
Certainly there is a problem here for those who have some loving feelings and gratitude to Narayan Maharaj for the positive things he has done for their spiritual life. Then they read something like this, they are naturally puzzled by the apparent narrowmindedness of the person they look up to.

So how to react? I wouldn't worry about it too much, though the situation is one that presents certain real challenges. Krishna is the Guru in your heart and ultimately he will show you how to deal with this challenge--whether you have courage to act or not, you will always find your own appropriate level.

Narayan Maharaj is protecting his sangha, which is certainly an important value. Each time we become part of a sangha--i.e., followers of a spiritual master and companions of other sajatiya devotees--we develop a network of important relationships that support and provide energy to our spiritual endeavors.

Though everyone is an individual, the starting point for all thinking is categories. We identify a particular category or set of categories and try to relate experience to them. The starting point of the guru-disciple relationship is that this is a relation that has been "made in Heaven." God sends an individual with a particular adhikara to a particular guru with the tools to help that individual cultivate spiritual life.

Both the guru and the disciple should start from the point that because this relationship (or set of relationships, because there are godbrothers and sisters involved) has been given by God, it should be protected. Just as a marriage counsellor always starts from the beginning point that the marriage should be saved, we always start from the beginning point of saving the guru-disciple relationship. The deeper our implication, the more there is to save.

The Vaishnava Guru wants you to develop your love for the Divine Couple. The disciple's goal is not to become a member of a sectarian group in this world, nor is this the spiritual master's goal for his disciple. This complex of relationships is a springboard to love for the Divine Couple.

You want the association of transcendental devotees who love Radha and Krishna, but in this particular instance, the Gaudiya Math guru's way of thinking is that the path shown by Saraswati Thakur is superior to the way of the Babajis. But if his goal is love for Radha and Krishna then why should associating with devotees of Radha and Krishna be an obstacle?

I think that Narayan Maharaj is trying to protect his disciples from hearing criticism of the Gaudiya Math and his Guru Varga. What is worse for the disciple--to hear about Krishna and also to hear Guru-ninda, or not to hear about Krishna at all?

Just like you, if you come here to this site and hear negative things about your guru varga, this might cause you to feel doubts and disrupt your spiritual practice.

But ultimately, the Guru is in your heart and directing you from there. If Guru gives apparently contradictory instructions ("Love Radha, but don't love her devotees"), you have to take it as a test, like Krishna telling the gopis to go back to their husbands.

So, the upshot is this: Keep your faith in all your guru varga. Don't indulge in Guru-ninda. If Guru appeared to you as Narayan Maharaj, that is Krishna's appearance and must be recognized as such. But don't lose sight of the essence.

And exercise great care.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I agree that we should view Maharaja’s points in such a manner. I think it is always best to give one the benefit of the doubt especially someone who has given their life to the service of Mahaprabhu and Srimati Radhika.

At the same time one can protect and nourish their family without doing it at the expense of others. This is where I think Maharaja sets a dangerous precedent. As a parent I do my best to keep my children protected. I attempt to do this by being affectionate, open, honest and, most importantly, reciprocate with their needs and feelings. This just seems to be a better approach then simply telling my children to “BEWARE OF THE KARMI’s AS THEY ARE ALL GROSS MATERALISTS AND SEX MONGERS!”. One may heed to such simplistic and fear based statements when they are young or, in this case, enamored but once that wears off you are potentially giving this person a reason to “look outside”. A when they see that the “karmis” aren’t just meat eating sex mongers they may identify more with them and wonder why they have been coerced into seeing them as such. The same goes with Maharaja’s approach to the “Babaji” issues (I still can’t find a way to best summarize these issues). Once a disciple of his meets a Babaji or someone within that scope and sees that they are indeed gentle, soft hearted and advanced everything is thrown into a tailspin.

Recently I heard one beautiful illustration of how to best summarize “staying put”. A former follower of NM heard that NM had stated that this individual was so sad and devastated because the GBC had forbid him to see NM. When word got to this individual he decided to write to NM to let him know how much he appreciated their association together and NM’s soft nature and affection for him. He then explained that he wasn’t ‘forced’ to leave NM by the GBC but by his love for his Prabhupada.

He compared his reasoning to the popular card game called Black Jack. He said that when he was reflecting on their relationship he felt that with his Prabhupada (ACBSP) he had a perfect 21. So when contemplating his relationship with NM he felt that he was basically chancing the perfect hand that he was already holding. He told NM that he may very well be a 21 but since he already had such a 21 in his Prabhupada he felt there was no reason to risk not pleasing his Prabhupada and that was why he left NM’s association.

Ultimately in life we don’t chose our path based on the perceived faults or dangers of others but by the beauty and comfort of what we find. If NM were to caution his followers to not :look outside” as their faith may be challenged I would say that is a nice sentiment and within his right. I just think to try to contain people within your scope at the expense of others, especially Vaisnavas, is extremely dangerous to everyone involved spiritual life.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Anand - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:44:40 +0530
QUOTE
I just think to try to contain people within your scope at the expense of others, especially Vaisnavas, is extremely dangerous to everyone involved spiritual life.


And that is exactly what Iskcon does when they say "don't go see Narayana Maharaja".
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:59:53 +0530
But where does the bucket stop?
Anand - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:08:49 +0530
You can take that bucket and make it into a game of spinning the bottle. Is all up to the individual.
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:19:30 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ Apr 22 2004, 08:18 PM)
That sounds “A Real Battle of Kuruksetra inside one’s mind….”

But then, who are the Pandavas and who are the Kauravas? blink.gif
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:27:05 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 22 2004, 03:57 PM)
QUOTE

I agree with the view of Dr. Radhagovinda Nath in this connection, about Sanatana Gosvami et al, but is that view supremely correct?


Remind us of his comment.

Nitai das has the file on his site. Though incomplete, the text there is what I was thinking of. I felt especially gratified when I read Dr. RGN's theory about why other Vaishnavas wear saffron; because they are aiming to go somewhere else, to put it concisely.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:13:09 +0530
Gadadhar Bhatta was a South Indian Brahmin of saintly character, who was sweet in speech and earned fame for his charming presentation of the Srimad Bhagavatam. He was a disciple of Raghunath Bhatta Goswami and earned a reputation as an author for his work Mohini-Vani. An anecdote about this devotee is told in the Bhakta Mala (chapter 23):

Once Srila Jiva Goswamipada heard a verse written by this great soul. Perhaps it was this one describing Krishna's flute--

zayAnA hastAbje mRdulam upAdhAyAdharad alaM
harer mandAdolAlaka-tatibhir AvIjita-tanuH |
dadhAnA sAzaGkAGguli-kalita-saMvAhana-sukhaM
tathApy eSA vaMzI na hi bhajati nidrA-lavam api ||

ANyway, when he heard that verse, Jiva decided to immediately write a letter to Gadadhar Bhatta to entice him to live in Vraja so that he could have his association. The letter consisted of this one verse by Raghunath Das Goswami (Sva-sankalpa-stotra, 1)--

anArAdhya rAdhA-padAmbhoja-reNum
anAzritya vrndATavIM tat-padAGkAm |
asambhASya tad-bhAva-gambhIra-cittAn
kutaH zyAma-sindho rasAvagAhaH ||
Not ever having worshipped once the dust
that sprinkles from Srimati’s lotus feet;
not having taken shelter even once
of Vraja Dham, marked with her dainty tread;
not ever having spoken with the souls
so laden with a weighty love for her,
how foolish they who think that they can plunge
into the secret sea of nectar that is Shyama!
He sent the letter with two messengers who went off to South India where Gadadhar Bhatta lived. They arrived in his village in the morning and took their baths before going to look for him. At the river, they asked a Brahmin who was also bathing there where they could find Gadadhar Bhatta's house. He in turn asked where they were from. When he heard they were from Vrindavan, the man went into ecstasy. Learning that he was Gadadhar Bhatta, the two messengers gave him the letter.

Gadadhar Bhatta read the verse and made his decision to leave for the Holy Dham in that very moment.
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:07:18 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 22 2004, 02:14 PM)
QUOTE
I just think to try to contain people within your scope at the expense of others, especially Vaisnavas, is extremely dangerous to everyone involved spiritual life.


And that is exactly what Iskcon does when they say "don't go see Narayana Maharaja".

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Yes, ISKCON does it, NM does it... what's the point? People will go where they are cared for, nourished, appreciated and where they are experiencing the things that make their heart content. So ISKCON, NM and anyone who tries to "keep" others will fail unless they do it through a positive expereince verse trumping a perceived flaw in others.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:17:43 +0530
I seriously wonder where the bucket stops. Thus far I haven't heard any such rhetoric. Perhaps if I started becoming too interested in the real sahajiyAs...
kalki - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:22:18 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 22 2004, 07:19 PM)
Narayan Maharaj is protecting his sangha, which is certainly an important value. Each time we become part of a sangha--i.e., followers of a spiritual master and companions of other sajatiya devotees--we develop a network of important relationships that support and provide energy to our spiritual endeavors.

You want the association of transcendental devotees who love Radha and Krishna, but in this particular instance, the Gaudiya Math guru's way of thinking is that the path shown by Saraswati Thakur is superior to the way of the Babajis. But if his goal is love for Radha and Krishna then why should associating with devotees of Radha and Krishna be an obstacle?

I think that Narayan Maharaj is trying to protect his disciples from hearing criticism of the Gaudiya Math and his Guru Varga. What is worse for the disciple--to hear about Krishna and also to hear Guru-ninda, or not to hear about Krishna at all?

Dandavats Jagat,
As always you are well spoken and well balanced running the razors edge between both your guru vargyas.
I am wondering though don't you think even if Srila Narayan Maharaj like AC Bhaktivedanta before him, is just protecting their disciples creeper from confusion that it really is just turning into institutionalizing aparadha unnecessarily. I wonder how stupid are all of us low devotees that such high vaishnavas must repeatedly generation after generation demean our intillegence and in the name of protecting our faith are really programming us to create an army of aparadhis rather than humble vaishnavas.
Is it that he is merely protecting us and really knows that all babajis aren't bad or does he in all his advancement still not able to see that Bhaktisiddhanta had a particular reason he was preaching against babajis according to time place and circumstance.
My conclusion is that if they can preach that AC was being conservative with hiding the gaudiya matha but not with hiding the babas, then that is just plain dishonest or demaeaning our ability to see or demeaning Krishnas ability to take care of us in the end. Unless of course NM really does see a big philosophic difference between himself and every baba out there which seems to imply a big phillosphic misunderstanding on his part due to imbibing a supre paranoid attitude, not just protecting the innocent from getting mislead.
In other words, this whole spoon feeding is getting old. It is like being sympathetic to the milk industry for pasteuriszing our milk becasue we know they just don't want us to drink fresh milk that can make us sick if we don't drink it right. Its obvious that it is just a big scam to take away our natural skills to make us dull minded like mules so when the goverment who is controlled by corporation wants to invade other countires for oil, we still think it is our big loving daddy protecting our American freedoms against the awful savages in other countries that our goverment has been covertly screwing for generations for the love of global control. Just watch, soon it will be illegal in India to milk your own cow just like they tried to make it illegal to save your own seeds.
Advaitadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:36:02 +0530
Narayan Maharaja is not protecting his poor innocent devotees - he is protecting vested interests. Fencing off the babaji-side by making false and empty accusations against them, both philosophically and personally, and pandering to the I$kcon-$ide with this disgusting opportunism of 'My Priya Bandhu and Siksa Guru'. He is suddenly ACBS anointed successor - 19 years after ACBS expired, without ACBS ever appointing or anointing him with even a single word. He considers ACBS a kanistha adhikari and yet he considers this kanistha his Priya Bandhu and $ik$a guru? He wants to lie on the beach in Hawaii at 83 - he thinks he can take all these Priya Dollars with him when he dies?
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:06:42 +0530
Steel is made harder by constantly being fired and hammered, Madhava.

(I refer to this interesting post of yours:
"Strange as it may sound, when I first became exposed to discussions on such matters and developed subsequent doubts, the effect was quite the opposite of what you describe. This unveiling was followed by a period of contemplation during which I used to chant between one to two lakhs daily, and with each passing day my faith in the status quo grew weaker, and in direct proportion to that fresh inspiration and insight evolved. Granted, such dedicated practice is not something I could maintain in the long run for both practical and inner reasons, not for the time being anyway, but an interesting effect nevertheless. ")


***

Few remember this, but in the 1980s when many Isksonites sought shelter from Sri BR Sridhar Maharaj, Narayan Maharaj stood with the GBC and denounced those who left as having turned against ACBSP.

Whatever people's subjective impressions of this person ("he is kind" "he loves us"...), those who have impartially observed his behaviour over a couple of decades have seen many anomalies and strange tendencies. Subjective impressions, then, may be misleading. After all, Sai Baba elicits similar feeings in his disciples, as did some deviant followers of ACBSP.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:21:02 +0530
I think that Advaita's position is a little overly strong, and I am more inclined to agree with Kalki. Obviously, I believe that all these negative statements about other Vaishnavas, however founded in genuine cultural differences, are ultimately counterproductive.

I see that many of the more sincere disciples in Iskcon went looking for deeper understanding in the Gaudiya Math. Others went to traditional scholars in the Gaudiya sampradaya. Most of them wish to maintain their relationships with their original organizations, but are unnecessarily forced to make choices that oblige them to cut themselves off.

To me, this shows that perhaps other motivations are at work. But I agree with Kalki--this is an infantilization of the disciples and an underestimation of God's power to direct the individual soul to the proper destination.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:26:26 +0530
Jagat, if you had seen this man as I have seen him, nothing anyone says is too strong!

Enough pandering to evil!

Would you say the same of Sai Baba the pedophile rapist?
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:28:18 +0530
If this man represents Gaudiyaism, then I am its mortal enemy!

Fortunately he does not represent Gaudiyaism.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:30:32 +0530
Stop sitting on the fence, Jagatji.

Choose good over evil! Choose truth over lies!
Advaitadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:33:30 +0530
QUOTE
Whatever people's subjective impressions of this person ("he is kind" "he loves us"...), those who have impartially observed his behaviour over a couple of decades have seen many anomalies and strange tendencies. Subjective impressions, then, may be misleading. After all, Sai Baba elicits similar feeings in his disciples, as did some deviant followers of ACBSP.


Quite right, so many Mr. Nice Guys are there. Look at the big pandering politicians with their Colgate smiles on their faces, kissing babies on the campaign trail and when they are elected killing scores of people on their battlefields. What does niceness mean? At best it is the mode of goodness. Look at what the persons are writing and what ugliness comes out of their organisations. Niceness is to bewitch the sentimental and the ignorant only. The ultimate test of a person's niceness is what attitude the Guru teaches his disciples. Judge a tree by its fruits.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:58:09 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 07:00 AM)
Stop sitting on the fence, Jagatji.

I am not on the fence. You may notice that I have not been a part of the Gaudiya Math for more than 25 years.

But I am not an either/or type of guy. This admittedly makes me a lousy manager, but perhaps a better philosopher. Even so, I still admire managers and accept that those who wish to realize certain communal objectives have to work under constraints and are sometimes forced to act in ways that cannot accomodate everyone. This may result in "evil," but as long as it is not pure evil, I have a certain degree of tolerance and even sympathy for it. All endeavors are covered with some kind of fault, like fire is covered with smoke.

And certainly I don't have the same experience of his "evil" as you. Had I, I might be more inclined to accept your exhortations. In this case, I feel that the Sai Baba analogy is somewhat inflammatory, even demagogic. Would you care to document this "evil"?

Otherwise, I have touched on my "sliding scale concept" of good and evil in relation to Narayan Maharaj HERE.. Also "On Plagiarism"
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:05:20 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 10:58 AM)
If this man represents Gaudiyaism, then I am its mortal enemy!

Fortunately he does not represent Gaudiyaism.

I mean this. It describes the effect Narayan Maharaj had on me when I first met him 6 years ago. "These people are all crooks, charlatans, exploiters of the gullible. I should campaign against them, expose them..."

Narayan Maharaj, by his words and actions in my presence, made me an enemy of the 'Gaudiyaism' he represents.

That's a warning, friends! Don't approach me to advertise your 'pure devotee'. Pure devil is more like it! If he is in heaven, I will choose hell!

No other recognised 'saint' has ever had such a negative effect on me.

But I was saved from abandoning Gaudiyaism altogether by a series of circumstances. First, I met others who shared my impressions of the great man. Some were even highly placed in Iskcon and Gaudiya Math. They reinforced my impression that there is something very wrong with the Bihari acharya.

Then I discovered the various 'Babaji' websites, and my negative impressions were replaced with something much more uplifting.

Given this, I am unable to accept that 'we are all one big family'. And I feel that such inclusiveness is indeed cultivating evil, just as turning a blind eye to Sai 'baba' is.
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:11:55 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 22 2004, 01:57 PM)
Here are the revised notes on the first chapter of the text discussing sannyAsa in the gauDIya-sampradAya.

Written by Bhaktivipatti Apasiddhanti Madhava Das Baba.

Dear Madhava,

I noted with interest the following comment in your essay:

QUOTE
To emphasize the relevance of sannyAsa-Azrama in terms of bhakti, the author has presented evidence from JAvAlopaniSad.

eSa panthA … sannyAsI brahma vidityevamevaiSa

The sannyAsIs who take shelter of this path of renunciation attain the saccidAnanda brahma and become competent to know everything. (JAvAlopaniSad 16)

The author has added the words “sac-cid-ananda” into the translation to illustrate the significance of the path of sannyAsa in terms of attaining the personal aspect of the Absolute. However, the original text has no reference to sac-cid-Ananda. In fact, the UpaniSad is characteristically bent towards nonspecific mukti, as are many other UpaniSads in which sannyAsa is described or recommended.

While reading the relevant sections in the Prabhandha-pancakam, I notice that NM has used rather unintelligible and confusing references from the JAbAla UpaniSad, which he prefers to call JAvAlopaniSad. This UpaniSad has only six verses.

QUOTE(Narayana Maharaja)
vi) tridaNDam kamaGDalu Sakyam jalapavitram patram zikhA yajnopavItaNca ityetat sarva bhusvAhetyapsu parityajyAtmAnamanvicchet (18)

“After this, on attaining the stage of paramahaMsa, the signs of sannyAsa such as the tridaNDa, kamaGDalu, zikhA, vasan, waterpot, kanthA, kaupIn, lower cloth and uttarIya are also discarded.”

Unless I am incorrect, I find this to be rather selective quoting. In context, this is what the JAbAla UpaniSad (6) appears to say:
tatra parama-haMsA nAma saMvartaKarunI zvetaketu durvAsa RbhU nidAgha jaDa-bharata dattAtreya raivataka prabhRtayaH, avyaktaliGgaH avyaktAcArAH anunmattA unmattavad Acarantas tridaNDaM kamaNDaluM zikyaM pAtraM jalapavitraM zikhAM yAjJopavItaM ca ity etat sarvaM bhUsvAhety apsu parityajyAtmAnam anvicchet.

SaMvartaka, AruNi, Zvetaketu, DurvAsa, Rbhu, NidAgha, JaDa-bharata, DattAtreya, Raivataka and others are paramahaMsas. They are of unmanifest natures, of unmanifested ways of life, seen (to others) to behave like mad men though they are in no way mad. They renounce tridaNDa, kamaNDalu, tuft of hair and sacred thread and all that in water with the words bhU svAhA and seek to know the Self.
Seems to me that the UpaniSad in question is talking of the figures mentioned and those like them. And you also seem to be quite correct in asserting that these are monistic considerations, generally speaking.
Advaitadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:14:09 +0530
Jagat, why do you think the Iskconites' thirst for rasa can only be quenched by Narayan Maharaja? Are there no other - and better - rasika Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas anymore?
vamsidas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:14:51 +0530
"Evil" may be too strong a word. "Hypocrite" certainly seems to fit.

Twenty years ago, Swami B.V. Narayana harshly criticized devotees for pursuing exactly the same behavior that he today encourages.

When ISKCON devotees sought guidance from Swami B.R. Sridhar, Narayana Maharaja demonized those devotees as offenders to their spiritual master. In his small way, he played a part in creating the environment of hostility (and occasional violence) that ISKCON developed toward the disciples of Swami B.R. Sridhar.

A man certainly has the right to change his mind. I would be happy, and full of praise for the man, if Swami B.V. Narayana would simply say, "I was wrong to attack the Westerners who went to Sridhar Maharaja, and I now see that they were more perceptive than I was, since they stopped supporting a corrupted organization more than a decade before I withdrew my own support."

But that is not what he has done. He has lied and dissembled about his previous statements -- and has even taken the bizarre step of declaring himself the "siksa-disciple" of this man whom he once villified as a disciple-stealing offender.

Perhaps that is not "evil." But it certainly seems like a fundamental disqualification in a supposed spiritual leader.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:20:42 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 23 2004, 11:28 AM)
And certainly I don't have the same experience of his "evil" as you. Had I, I might be more inclined to accept your exhortations. In this case, I feel that the Sai Baba analogy is somewhat inflammatory, even demagogic. Would you care to document this "evil"?

The man is without any moral constraints. He is capable of anything. His only motivation is the accumulation of power. He lies constantly and habitually. He exposes sincere senior renounced disples of ACBSP to moral danger by physically consorting with young girls in their presence - having the girls massage his legs in his private room while a senior Iskcon sannyasi* is a shocked witness, implicitly challenging this sincere devotee, 'What are you going to do about it? No one will believe you'. He manipulates his followers like a master cult leader, churning their emotions till they are disoriented putty in his hands. He uses his authority to bully people to become his disicples, and if they still refuse he insults them.

But even the way Madhava was treated is enough to condemn this man as dangerous (the attempted character-assasination), and it is all here on public record.

The bottom line for me, Jagat, is that I have known people who have suicided over similar types of pressure - not in this case as far as I know yet, but how sick does someone have to be before we call a doctor?

*That sannyasi, a current Iskcon guru, told me this personally but chose not to go public with the shocking incident, though it is widely known. I will respect the sannyasi's decision by not naming him here, but I will disclose it to you privately, Jagat.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:21:42 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 11:41 AM)
While reading the relevant sections in the Prabhandha-pancakam, I notice that NM has used rather unintelligible and confusing references from the JAbAla UpaniSad, which he prefers to call JAvAlopaniSad. This UpaniSad has only six verses.

Yes, I noticed it that it's generally called Jabala, and that it has only six paragraphs. Not verses, by the way, paragraphs which consist of bundles of verses. I suppose the editor of Narayan Maharaja's edition has somehow broken it down according to verses, and this has given him the reading of 16-

Where did you find a translation? Would you mind sending it to me?

"In fear of increasing the bulk of the publication," I have decided to not point out minor issues. smile.gif
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:31:26 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 11:50 AM)
The man is without any moral constraints. He is capable of anything.

Indeed, the truth is rather flexible in his hands.

Add to that some violent patterns of behavior, such as smacking a ten-year old kid living in the matha so hard that the poor fellow screams while simultaneously passing urine and stool into his pants, kicking another fellow down the stairs of the Matha for having a dirty spot in his cloth, cracking a local fruit seller's head with a thick bamboo-rod and thus inciting a riot around the Matha, having a visitor with a monistic conception held up by two brahmacaris while he himself approaches the man with a burning stick, declaring how the man is about to witness how it is all one and he would be becoming one with fire, and laughing when the poor man runs screaming out the door, and so forth. And the residents of the Matha narrate these stories as if they were nectar from the heavens.

I'd say you have an interesting fellow to deal with there.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:37:03 +0530
Madhava, how well known is the "kumari massage" business?

As I said, I have it from a shocked eyewitness, an Iskcon sannyasi who was traumatised by it.


Also, what is it with him being surrounded by women? As if he is Krishna with Gopis?

- At least one could get this impression, and I don't think it is a coincidence. When I met him he was running around a house full of Iskcon paintings calling 'Gopi gopi gopi gopi...I only want to see Gopis!'

I know one other devotee who behaved like that: Bhavananda. And several of his followers committed suicide.

And this is the guy who is campaigning against Sahajiyas? No wonder his followers are confused. I sincerely fear for their sanity if they place their full faith in him as others did in Bhavananda, and Sai baba for that matter.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:41:17 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 23 2004, 07:44 AM)
Jagat, why do you think the Iskconites' thirst for rasa can only be quenched by Narayan Maharaja? Are there no other - and better - rasika Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas anymore?

I did not say that.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:49:13 +0530
As is often the case, I am not aware of the various details of Narayan Maharaj's behaviors.

I don't like the Gaudiya Math "vira-rasa" spirit. It leads to unpleasantness. I prefer the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu "bhava" spirit.

But in all things, I try to see the positive while not blinding myself to the negative.
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:57:43 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 11:51 AM)
Yes, I noticed it that it's generally called Jabala, and that it has only six paragraphs. Not verses, by the way, paragraphs which consist of bundles of verses. I suppose the editor of Narayan Maharaja's edition has somehow broken it down according to verses, and this has given him the reading of 16-

Oh right, I see.

QUOTE
Where did you find a translation? Would you mind sending it to me?

I actually have it in book form which I bought in India. Its a thick anthology of the major UpaniSads, eighteen in all, with romanised Sanskrit and translations by S. Radhakrishnan. Yep, that Radhakrishnan.

But just to cover my bases, I looked up the Internet translations that I found here and here.

QUOTE
"In fear of increasing the bulk of the publication," I have decided to not point out minor issues.  smile.gif

Ah come on, we are trying to discuss philosophy here. wink.gif

By the way, something I forgot to mention is the apparent discrepancy with this UpaniSad's location. Some say it is from the Sukla-yajurveda while others say it is from Atharvaveda. NM advocates the former.
Elpis - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:58:33 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 07:41 AM)
I noted with interest the following comment in your essay:

QUOTE
To emphasize the relevance of sannyAsa-Azrama in terms of bhakti, the author has presented evidence from JAvAlopaniSad.

eSa panthA … sannyAsI brahma vidityevamevaiSa

The sannyAsIs who take shelter of this path of renunciation attain the saccidAnanda brahma and become competent to know everything. (JAvAlopaniSad 16)

The author has added the words “sac-cid-ananda” into the translation to illustrate the significance of the path of sannyAsa in terms of attaining the personal aspect of the Absolute. However, the original text has no reference to sac-cid-Ananda. In fact, the UpaniSad is characteristically bent towards nonspecific mukti, as are many other UpaniSads in which sannyAsa is described or recommended.

While reading the relevant sections in the Prabhandha-pancakam, I notice that NM has used rather unintelligible and confusing references from the JAbAla UpaniSad, which he prefers to call JAvAlopaniSad. This UpaniSad has only six verses.

Calling it JAvAlopaniSat is okay. If you work with Sanskrit manuscripts, you will see that the scribes use b and v somewhat interchangeably; you will sometimes find b where you would expect v and vice versa. While jAbAla is the proper form, it is not unlikely that Narayana Maharaja's source gave him the name jAvAla.

Some time back I studied the JAbAlopaniSat carefully (in Sanskrit) with a former professor of mine. There is no doubt that the underlying philosophy of the text is monistic (advaita-vedAnta). The text is actually not divided into verses, but into sections; much of it is in prose.

QUOTE
QUOTE(Narayana Maharaja)
vi) tridaNDam kamaGDalu Sakyam jalapavitram patram zikhA yajnopavItaNca ityetat sarva bhusvAhetyapsu parityajyAtmAnamanvicchet (18)

“After this, on attaining the stage of paramahaMsa, the signs of sannyAsa such as the tridaNDa, kamaGDalu, zikhA, vasan, waterpot, kanthA, kaupIn, lower cloth and uttarIya are also discarded.”

Unless I am incorrect, I find this to be rather selective quoting. In context, this is what the JAbAla UpaniSad (6) appears to say:
tatra parama-haMsA nAma saMvartaKarunI zvetaketu durvAsa RbhU nidAgha jaDa-bharata dattAtreya raivataka prabhRtayaH, avyaktaliGgaH avyaktAcArAH anunmattA unmattavad Acarantas tridaNDaM kamaNDaluM zikyaM pAtraM jalapavitraM zikhAM yAjJopavItaM ca ity etat sarvaM bhUsvAhety apsu parityajyAtmAnam anvicchet.

SaMvartaka, AruNi, Zvetaketu, DurvAsa, Rbhu, NidAgha, JaDa-bharata, DattAtreya, Raivataka and others are paramahaMsas. They are of unmanifest natures, of unmanifested ways of life, seen (to others) to behave like mad men though they are in no way mad. They renounce tridaNDa, kamaNDalu, tuft of hair and sacred thread and all that in water with the words bhU svAhA and seek to know the Self.
Seems to me that the UpaniSad in question is talking of the figures mentioned and those like them. And you also seem to be quite correct in asserting that these are monistic considerations, generally speaking.

That the text prescribe that those reaching the stage of paramahaMsa throw away their daNDa shows that the text is from the monistic tradition. In the Sri-vaisnava tradition, paramahaMsas carry a daNDa.

I am not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that the rule mentioned only apply to certain individuals? This is not the case. This is a general rule for the stage of paramahaMsa, and, in practical reality, although there is talk about other stages of renunciation, everybody who renounces are initiated into the paramahaMsa order. This is so in the advaita-vedAnta tradition.

Sincerely,
Elpis
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:58:44 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 23 2004, 12:19 PM)
As is often the case, I am not aware of the various details of Narayan Maharaj's behaviors.

I don't like the Gaudiya Math "vira-rasa" spirit.




I think it is not innacurate to describe his character as sadistic.

And that is evil in my book, with nothing to redeem it.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:05:29 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 12:07 PM)
Madhava, how well known is the "kumari massage" business?

As I said, I have it from a shocked eyewitness, an Iskcon sannyasi who was traumatised by it.

Well, he's pretty much all the time behind closed doors somewhere, and particularly nowadays, as he has a big flock of followers, it's hard to be around and therefore hard to say what he's up to. Book a time one week in advance, and you'll get your five minute audience.


QUOTE
And this is the guy who is campaigning against Sahajiyas? No wonder his followers are confused.

It's more of a campaign of obfuscation. People started calling him sahajiyA, so he has to speak loud against the sahajiyAs, too, to divert people's attention to somewhere else -- to that homogeneous mass of sahajiyA-bAbAjIs out there.
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:07:55 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 12:07 PM)
Madhava, how well known is the "kumari massage" business?

Kindly excuse me from butting in between you and Madhava, but the first I heard of it was in Ravindra-svarupa's essay 'Taking Srila Prabhupada Straight.' According to him, "many have witnessed" it taking place.

QUOTE
When I met him he was running around a house full of Iskcon paintings calling 'Gopi gopi gopi gopi...I only want to see Gopis!'

Please excuse me, but for some reason I nearly spat coke all over my computer because this sounded so funny.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:10:08 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 23 2004, 12:19 PM)
I don't like the Gaudiya Math "vira-rasa" spirit.

I suppose you can call beating the crap out of people vira-rasa. How does it work in this scenario, which one is the connoisseur, the object or the repository of the mood? Judging by the amount of excrement, saliva and so forth emitted by the object, and the skin changing its color, at some spots anyway, I would tend to conclude that the object is the main connoisseur of vira-rasa, evidently exhibiting various existential ecstasies.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:16:36 +0530
Can there be a more dangerous combination than a sadist with thousands of blind adoring followers?

Honestly, things like this make me want to join the campaigning atheists.
Elpis - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:19:22 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE
When I met him he was running around a house full of Iskcon paintings calling 'Gopi gopi gopi gopi...I only want to see Gopis!'

Please excuse me, but for some reason I nearly spat coke all over my computer because this sounded so funny.

Thanks for sharing wink.gif
Elpis - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:22:17 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 08:46 AM)
Can there be a more dangerous combination than a sadist with thousands of blind adoring followers?

Honestly, things like this make me want to join the campaigning atheists.

I understand your sentiments, but there are sadists with power and followers among the atheists, too.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:24:55 +0530
I guess that explains something about Puru Das. When I knew Narayan Maharaj more than 25 years ago, there was nothing that would have led me to believe that he would behave in this manner. I suppose that my positive memories of him from that time have clouded my judgment. But I would rather suspend judgment on these incidents, as I am not directly involved. I admittedly find it troubling.

Reminds me of the dangers of becoming a guru:

kRpA koro vaiSNava ThAkura,
sambandha jAniyA bhajite bhajite,
abhimAna hau dUra
O Vaishnava Thakur! Please give me your mercy, that through knowing my relationship with the Lord and constantly doing bhajan, my false ego will disappear.
Ami to vaiSNava, e buddhi hoile
amAnI nA ho’bo Ami
pratiSthAzA Asi’, hRdoya dUSibe,
hoibo niraya-gAmI
If I think “I am a Vaishnava,” then I will never become humble. My heart will become contaminated with the hope of receiving honor from others, and I will surely go to hell.
tomAra kiGkora, Apane jAnibo,
‘guru’-abhimAna tyaji’
tomAra ucchiSTa, pada-jala-reNu,
sadA niSkapaTe bhaji
Give me the mercy that I can renounce the false conception of my being guru and can be your servant. Let me accept without duplicity your remnants, the dust of your feet and the water that has washed them.
nije zreSTha jAni, ucchiSThAdi dAne,
ho’be abhimAna bhAr
tAi ziSya tava, thAkiyA sarvadA,
nA loibo pUjA kAr
By thinking that I am superior and giving my remnants to others, I will become increasingly egotistical. Let me always remain in the mood of a disciple and never accept any worship or praise from others.
amAnI mAnada, hoile kIrtane,
adhikAra dibe tumi
tomAra caraNe, niSkapaTe Ami,
kAGdiyA luTibo bhUmi
In this way I can renounce the desire for honor for myself and can offer respect to others. Weeping sincerely at your lotus feet and rolling on the ground, I pray that you will give me the ability to purely chant the Holy Name.
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:25:44 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 12:37 PM)
QUOTE
When I met him he was running around a house full of Iskcon paintings calling 'Gopi gopi gopi gopi...I only want to see Gopis!'

Please excuse me, but for some reason I nearly spat coke all over my computer because this sounded so funny.

He was annoyed that the Iskcon paintings didn't have enough Gopis in them*.

Maybe he was referring to Mahaprabhu's chant in CC too. But it was really weird! Agressive, hysterical, not dignified.

*(Now he's got Jaduraniji working on this problem!)
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:26:07 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Apr 23 2004, 12:28 PM)
I am not sure I understand your point.  Are you saying that the rule mentioned only apply to certain individuals?

Well, if I understand Narayana Maharaja properly, he has selectively quoted that part of the UpaniSad which suits his taste. He appears to have left out the names of those individuals of whom the UpaniSad is speaking about and concentrates only on the part that speaks of the rejection of the tridaNDa, etc. Also including the term "saccidAnanda" into the translation where it doesn't exist (as Madhavaji pointed out) appears to deliberately mistranslate that line as applicable for those on the path of KRSNa-bhakti.

Thank you for pointing out the monistic undertones of the UpaniSad. When this is so, then why is a VaiSNava quoting a "monistic text" in support of his argument about sannyAsa?

NM appears to be at serious odds here. Quoting from a "monistic text" with its general goals of attaining sama-drishti and/or "sayujya-mukti" is not exactly appropriate for applying to a community (?) of GauDiya VaiSNavas who are aiming for RAdha-dasyam. Again, thanks also for pointing out that Zri-VaiSNava paramahaMsas carry a tridaNDa. This appears to confirm the Zri VaiSNava connection that was implemented by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Add that Zri VaiSNava connection into the mix and we have confusion confounded!
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:27:08 +0530
Let us note in Narayan Maharaja's defense that, although born in a brahmin-family, he did spend a good deal of his life as an athlete and a policeman. kAryate hy avazaH karma sarvaH prakRti-jair guNaiH. Somehow he has to vent the fumes, too, bound as he is by his nature.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:29:01 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 12:56 PM)
Thank you for pointing out the monistic undertones of the UpaniSad. When this is so, then why is a VaiSNava quoting a "monistic text" in support of his argument about sannyAsa?

Pray tell, what of Mahanirvana-tantra? "Hring, let us worship the Three-eyed One whose fame is fragrant, the Augmenter of increase."
adiyen - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:31:07 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Apr 23 2004, 12:52 PM)
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 08:46 AM)
Can there be a more dangerous combination than a sadist with thousands of blind adoring followers?

Honestly, things like this make me want to join the campaigning atheists.

I understand your sentiments, but there are sadists with power and followers among the atheists, too.

True!
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:34:11 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 12:59 PM)
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 12:56 PM)
Thank you for pointing out the monistic undertones of the UpaniSad. When this is so, then why is a VaiSNava quoting a "monistic text" in support of his argument about sannyAsa?

Pray tell, what of Mahanirvana-tantra? "Hring, let us worship the Three-eyed One whose fame is fragrant, the Augmenter of increase."

That's another thing that rang loud bells with me when I read your essay. Even from the translation I was able to tell that it was the popular Maha-mRtyunjaya mantra of the Shaivites with a 'Hring' bija.

Om (Hring?) Tryambakam Yajamahe, Sugandhim Pushtivardhanam, etc.
Advaitadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:35:09 +0530
I think it is largely irrelevant whether he quotes from bhakti or gyan shastra, dvaita or advaita, the shastras he quotes are not the shastras the Haribhakti Vilasa and Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu quote and that makes him a heretic in the Gaudiya Vaishnava context. Mahaprabhu has given Sanatan Gosvami the order to lay down the rules and has assured him (CC Madhya 24) that Krishna will reveal to him what to write. Why isn't that enough for all those saffron inventors?
Elpis - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:47:14 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 08:56 AM)
QUOTE(Elpis @ Apr 23 2004, 12:28 PM)
I am not sure I understand your point.  Are you saying that the rule mentioned only apply to certain individuals?

Well, if I understand Narayana Maharaja properly, he has selectively quoted that part of the UpaniSad which suits his taste. He appears to have left out the names of those individuals of whom the UpaniSad is speaking about and concentrates only on the part that speaks of the rejection of the tridaNDa, etc. Also including the term "saccidAnanda" into the translation where it doesn't exist (as Madhavaji pointed out) appears to deliberately mistranslate that line as applicable for those on the path of KRSNa-bhakti.

Narayana Maharaja has indeed quoted selectively. However, I do not think that his omitting the list of names is so serious. The injunction applies to all paramahaMsas; the names in the list are the paramahaMsas par excellence, the mythic role models, so to speak. However, all paramahaMsas in the tradition of the JAbAlopaniSat are expected to give up the daNDa, etc.

QUOTE
Thank you for pointing out the monistic undertones of the UpaniSad. When this is so, then why is a VaiSNava quoting a "monistic text" in support of his argument about sannyAsa?

You would have to ask Narayana Maharaja what was on his mind. However, these things tend to be somewhat fluid in that Indian writers often are quite ecclectic when justifying their positions.

I would personally have cited the ZATyAyanIyopaniSat rather than the JAbAlopaniSat; this is a vaiSNava upaniSat and it actually speaks about how the renouncer should contemplate ViSNu, etc.

QUOTE
Again, thanks also for pointing out that Zri-VaiSNava paramahaMsas carry a tridaNDa. This appears to confirm the Zri VaiSNava connection that was implemented by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Add that Zri VaiSNava connection into the mix and we have confusion confounded!

ZrI-vaiSNava paramahaMsas also wear the sacred thread. Whether or not paramahaMsas should wear the sacred thread, carry a daNDa, etc. was a controversy between the ZrI-vaiSNavas and Advaitins in medieval times.

Sincerely,
Elpis
Gaurasundara - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:53:57 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 12:40 PM)
I suppose you can call beating the crap out of people vira-rasa. How does it work in this scenario, which one is the connoisseur, the object or the repository of the mood?

Despite all the good points that we all may make, I guess some people will always want to take up cudgels and condemn them as canards! mad.gif
Hari Saran - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:17:45 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 22 2004, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ Apr 22 2004, 08:18 PM)
That sounds “A Real Battle of Kuruksetra inside one’s mind….”

But then, who are the Pandavas and who are the Kauravas? blink.gif

That is a question that only you probably could answer yourself.

The picture I have in mind, which probably everyone has differently, is that:

Sri Krishna is the same to everyone, but sometimes He puts Himself in the middle of the battlefield, where our friends, relatives, masters, teachers are, and He tells us to fight. One’s Guru now may be representing the Kurus or maybe, just maybe, representing the Pandavas. However, the point here is, they all have in some way a deep connection with you. They have been contributing to your growth, they are part of your life, but now you need get rid of them to succeed...

In other words, the darling son of Yasoda, Sri Krishna, has a trick nature that only few can understand (I do not). He appear as Sri Guru and one thinks that Guru is all in all, but all of sudden, He assumes another Gurus’ form and tell that the previous one was not telling you the truth.

As being the cause of all causes, this refulgent black Boy loves to make battles in order to test one’s surrender. Just see the example of Arjuna, what a difficult situation he was in:

BG 1.28: Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, seeing my friends and relatives present before me in such a fighting spirit, I feel the limbs of my body quivering and my mouth drying up.

Almost similarly, here we are in the middle of this battle, "GV X GV"...

unsure.gif
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:32:10 +0530
That is actually very astute Hari Sharanji. Life is about making decisions, leaving one thing to go to another. Arjuna did indeed have to "kill his gurus." And Krishna told him to do it. We forget that...

It's like that "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"
Elpis - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:45:13 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 07:51 AM)
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 11:41 AM)
While reading the relevant sections in the Prabhandha-pancakam, I notice that NM has used rather unintelligible and confusing references from the JAbAla UpaniSad, which he prefers to call JAvAlopaniSad. This UpaniSad has only six verses.

Yes, I noticed it that it's generally called Jabala, and that it has only six paragraphs. Not verses, by the way, paragraphs which consist of bundles of verses. I suppose the editor of Narayan Maharaja's edition has somehow broken it down according to verses, and this has given him the reading of 16-

The upaniSat is divided into six khaNDas, each of which are subdivided into smaller numbered sections (in my edition, at least -- if one do away with the khaNDa division it is possible that one could arrive at 16 or more numbered smaller sections; this may be how NM got the number 16, but I have not counted). The khaNDas do not consist of clusters of verses: the text is entirely in prose with the exception of one verse:

ayaM te yonir Rtvijo yato jAto arocathAH |
taM jAnann agna ArohAthA no vardhayA rayim ||

This is a citation from zruti (the verse occurs in the Atharva-veda (3.20.1), the VAjasaneyi-saMhitA (3.14), and the TaittirIya-saMhitA (1.5.5.2)). In the upaniSat this is the mantra to be recited when a man inhales the smoke of the fire upon becoming a renouncer. The significance of this is that the ritual fires which the man sacrificed in during his life as a householder are deposited in his breath. He thus carries them with him as a renouncer and every breath of his is a sacrifice. Needless to say that the verse does not quite have this function in the original context smile.gif

Sincerely,
Elpis
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:02:34 +0530
oops, tough beans...

well, i am feeling much better now.
today morning i wrote a letter to Srila Ananta das Babaji.

man, i got to leave my attachments behind.
actually its also comfortable for my mind to hide behind the facts
and behind, couchy in the "well-known"-comfy-zones.

more and more i see that it is NOT guru-ninda to leave SNM and the GM.
but like Advaita das said in a PM:
focus on the Holy Name, be patient and wait. that i will do.

when i met SNM in Holland the first time, he was very rude to me and i thought, well, i am a rascal and i deserve rude treatment.
when i asked him questions, it seemed that he was feeling uncomfortable up to disgusted with such unimportant fools like me.

before i knew Babaji Maharaja, i felt quite safe in the guidance of SNM.
but more and more i saw, read and heard things (discussed in this threads) which reminded me terribly of the ISKCON- bad-things...

but i got what i deserved: quick diksha- quick disappointment.
now, onwards !

Radhe!
Tarunji
Anand - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:04:53 +0530
Now things are really becoming clear. The pacifists are advocating road killings.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:13:03 +0530
@ anand
blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:23:52 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 23 2004, 11:34 AM)
Now things are really becoming clear. The pacifists are advocating road killings.

Dear Anandaji,

It's all a question of adhikara and sva-dharma. I still stand by everything I said before, but sometimes it is time to move on. It is time to make a decision.

Because the Gita takes place on a battlefield, does that mean that it is telling us all to go out and kill people? The Gita is Krishna telling us how to make difficult decisions. He is sitting on the chariot of our body and asking us, "Where do you want me to take you?" You say, "I don't know, please tell me!" Then Krishna says, "Well, I can give you advice, but the decision is yours. But don't think you can cop out of making a decision. You have to act in some way. Inaction is not an option."
Anand - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:40:06 +0530
Dear Jagatji,

So Krsna has spoken to you thus. Unfortunately, He has spoken to me yet, so naturally I am confused.

Thanks for your point of view though.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:41:51 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 23 2004, 12:10 PM)
So Krsna has spoken to you thus. Unfortunately, He has [not?] spoken to me yet, so naturally I am confused.

The Gita would be meaningless if it wasn't something that was going on constantly, in the Kurukshetra of every one of our hearts. Krishna has spoken to you, and will go on speaking to you. The external guru is only pointing you where to look.

Of course, not all decisions are so pivotal. The Gita is really about BIG decisions, not so much about the little ones. So if there is no momentousness about a situation--if there is no battle brewing in your heart--then you are not being called on to make a vital decision like this.
Jagat - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:02:50 +0530
On the other hand, the gopis' situation is a little different. There Krishna is turning them back, subjecting them to a test. That's why Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur says this about that situation:

loka-dvayAt svajanataH parataH svato vA
prANa-priyAd api sumeru-samA yadi syuH
klezAs tad apy atibalI sahasA vijitya
premaiva tAn harir ibhAn iva puSTim eti
As a strong lion defeats many elephants
and then becomes further nourished
and strengthened by feeding on them,
so too does sacred love, when exceedingly great,
conquer all obstacles placed before it,
whether they come from this world or the next,
from enemies or from family members,
from one’s own body or the things connected to it,
or even from that dearest one
who is the object of the love itself.

Even if such obstacles should be as vast
as the immeasurable Mount Meru,
sacred love will conquer them and,
having conquered, become stronger and more vital.
In other words, Krishna Himself sometimes deliberately places obstacles in our path. (Prema-samputika, 54.)
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:03:53 +0530
Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

In regards to working through situations where we are challenged in our personal spiritual lives to make such decisions we should view this as Sri Radhikas mercy upon us. I am going through a very tough mental period which in the beginning challenged the focus of my sadhana but has, as of the last 3 months, become a great impetus in my spiritual life and sadhana.

The way I see this is difficult period is that we come to these crossroad because in our heart of hearts we truly desire the service and shelter of Sri Sri Guru Gaurunga Radha Gopicandra. We have the choice to make our decisions based on sentiment, allow the process to shut down our spiritual pursuits or sincerely make the effort to take shelter of the holy name and in reading sastra out of desperation for both mental and spiritual relief.

For myself I have really taken shelter of kirtana and find myself sitting in front of my deities, Sri Sri Guru Gaurunga Radha Gopicandra, chanting kirtana for hours each day. I have found that I am not just singing words of aspiration but that there is even a tinge of emotion in my sadhana and kirtana. That I am approaching these songs as a method of prayer and shelter from the mental anguish I am going through. I have learned to see this as a unique gift of Sri Sri Guru Gaurunga Radha Gopicandra as they are allowing me to finally have just the very slightest understanding of what emotions we can encounter when singing to them and begging for their shelter.

In the least this can be the positive result of such personal challenges.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
TarunGovindadas - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:25:52 +0530
i would have been happy if this would have been the language of the letter.
i would have expected it from a great soul, but yeah, dream on....
QUOTE
I received your letter and became very happy to read the contents. I am looking forward to meet with you when I come to USA and hope that you will be with me in Badger. Please know that my health is gradually improving. I will take rest up to Badger and I should be alright by the time that the festival in Badger starts. At present I am residing on the banks of Sri Radhakunda.Today I took bath in the kunda for the first time after my operation. This is the best medicine for me.

In regard to your concerns that is shared by the devotees in Alachua, yes there is great need to go to the babajis. They have written nice commentaries to the granthas of the Goswamis, although their focus is more on raganuga-bhakti, especially manjari-bhava. The fortunate living entity who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami, he has many things to gain in Krishna consciousness by associating with the babajis and other great souls. There may be some differences regarding mantras to obtain or differences about the system of parampara, but as my disciples, you should not feel the need of getting other mantras. But for those devotees who have not actually taken shelter at the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master and who want to enlarge their spiritual horizon, please feel free to visit all great souls so as to enrich your Krishna-consciousness. You are nevertheless always invited to study my classes.
Since you are all grown-up people, you know what you have to do. I am just there to help you and i have nothing against taking instructions from outside our Gaudiya Matha as long as they belong to the family of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

I am very pleased to hear that you all are preaching. Please convey my heartily blessings to all the devotees in Alachua, especially to my dear darling daughter Anuradha and her lovely children.


wouldnt it be nice?

[ I snipped out the beginning and the signature of the letter, otherwise it may seem as if someone was fabricating a letter. ]
kalki - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:45:00 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 11:00 AM)
Stop sitting on the fence, Jagatji.

Choose good over evil!  Choose truth over lies!

Dear Adiyen,
I am curious as to what kind of faults you saw in NM character. It may not be proper sharing for the forum but maybe in an e-mail.
Isn't it in our philosophy that if a person manifests a certain quality, that Krishna has made that quality appear to us due to our own karma. In other words we see faults in others that we actually possess ourself or we create conditions for a bad experience and then someone comes and fulfills that for us.
It doesn't mean we don't use discriminating wisdom, but we separate the tendency to blame another person from the opportunity to accept purification by taking obstavcles gladly on our head.
Don't even the babaji's teach this or am I jsut crazy. Maybe some scholar can educate me.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:09:45 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 23 2004, 08:15 PM)
Isn't it in our philosophy that if a person manifests a certain quality, that Krishna has made that quality appear to us due to our own karma.  In other words we see faults in others that we actually possess ourself or we create conditions for a bad experience and then someone comes and fulfills that for us.

Ah, that good old bit of Freudian Vedic wisdom.

If I witness a man stealing a car and I call him thief, then actually no thievery is going on, but I am rather faced with my persistent subconscious kleptomania.
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:25:56 +0530
Please...

Pay no attention to that Baba behind that Kutir...


laugh.gif
vamsidas - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:26:24 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 23 2004, 04:15 PM)
In other words we see faults in others that we actually possess ourself

So you are saying that when Swami B.V. Narayana vigorously condemns the babajis as "sahajiyas"...

smile.gif
Audarya-lila dasa - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 03:47:52 +0530
I don't think anyone should stick their head in the sand, or pretend that the 'emperor has clothes on' just for political correctness or to be polite. On the other hand, I am not sure that any good will come from dwelling on the faults of others.

My own opinion on the matter being discussed is that if you don't find a particular sanga to be beneficial to your own progress then avoid it and pay your respects from a distance.

I have never met Narayana Maharaja and I would not judge him based on second hand information. What I do know is that he seems to have inspired many people to chant and hear about Krsna. For that alone we should all be very grateful.

If someone here isn't inspired by him, and obviously many aren't, fine - you don't need to associate with him or read his writings. But a certain amount of care should be given when speaking about anyone, what to speak about someone who is engaged in the service of Mahaprabhu.

Nothing will be gained by engaging in this type of talk. Better to simply chant and avoid those who disturb your progressive march toward 24/7 service.

One thing I learned a long time ago is that but for the mercy of Mahaprabhu my future is very bleak. As my Guru Maharaja has said, 'those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice'. I have realized that it is much better for me to see the good in others and encourage them and if I must look for faults and someone to criticize, my time is much better spent directing that energy toward my own short comings.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:42:08 +0530
Audarya-lila,

Your views are certainly applicable and commendable as far as we are only concerned on the situation in each individual's realm, our respective bubbles of spirituality if you will. However, if you broaden the perspective to encompass the global situation, some adjustment in attitudes may be in place. Some issues - issues that one would not address merely for the sake of oneself - may need to be frankly and openly discussed and reviewed.

If Narayan Maharaja and his respected group would discuss their kind views of the rest of the tradition behind closed doors, that would be their issue altogether and would call for no interference, but when such views are globally broadcast, the nature of the issue changes. Some of the misinformed views he propagates in these documents of his may well serve to persuade people from pursuing their spiritual aspirations among the lineages many of us belong to and whose respective messages we try to bring forth.

Granted, in the end it is a matter of each individual's inner eligibility which prompts them to take a certain path, but as much as it is a matter of mercy, it is also a matter of informed choice. Therefore, I feel that it is in the best interest of all sincere seekers to frankly (and preferably dispassionately) review any (mis)information that we are being subjected to..
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:51:47 +0530
Seems you are all making a mountain out of a molehill.
The maharaj did not criticize babajis in that letter but simply said, "there was no need" to his disciples. What's the biggie?
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:54:38 +0530
How do u explain his 'Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis' lecture then....

was that no big deal as well?

cool.gif
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:57:36 +0530
I scanned quickly through that one.
He is not talking about all babajis.
Only "sahajiya" babajis.
Whats the biggie?
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:59:26 +0530
Oh and where might these "Sahajiya Babajis' live...?

Just up the road from Govardhan maybe...?

biggrin.gif
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:00:49 +0530
Most sahajiyas are in Bengal.
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:01:46 +0530
QUOTE(betal_nut @ Apr 23 2004, 11:30 PM)
Most sahajiyas are in Bengal.

no kiddin...

So you honestly think he was referring to the Bengali Sahajiya sect...

I hardly think so...

laugh.gif
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:03:13 +0530
Yes, we are mostly from and in Bengal.
Jagat - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:03:54 +0530
This was the point:
QUOTE
We have freely distributed thousands of copies in Vrndavan 3 years ago and there has not been any reply up to this day from anyone. Not even one babaji has dared to reply.


As Advaita and Madhava made clear, they have both made public documents that refute Narayan Maharaj's arguments. It is unlikely that everyone from Narayan Maharaj's group is completely unaware of these responses. That's all I wanted to communicate.

I am rather in favor of Audarya Lila's approach, which is the shastric model for Gaudiya Vaishnavas.
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:09 +0530
Why doesn't someone personally deliver that by hand to Maharaj?
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:05:31 +0530
u don't get my drift...

maybe coz ur Indian..

biggrin.gif
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:06:34 +0530
I get your drift, baby.
It's breezing right past my anchal.
Anand - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:09:09 +0530
Betal nut, why don't you come and deliver these papers yourself? You will be my guest of honor.
Gaurasundara - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:09:30 +0530
QUOTE(betal_nut @ Apr 23 2004, 11:21 PM)
Seems you are all making a mountain out of a molehill.
The maharaj did not criticize babajis in that letter but simply said, "there was no need" to his disciples.  What's the biggie?

Jagatji, what a fast typer! smile.gif

As well as that point, NM is alleging the following:

- "Nothing to gain by associating with babajis who are not in Rupa Gosvami's line"
- "No special mantras to obtain"
- "Following them will make you bewildered"

These are clearly insults and/or unnecessary put-downs.

Besides that, other points have come up through the discussion.
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:12:33 +0530
QUOTE
"Nothing to gain by associating with babajis who are not in Rupa Gosvami's line"
- "No special mantras to obtain"
- "Following them will make you bewildered"


Let me ask this to all the Rupanugas here. IS there anything to be gained by associating with anyone who is not in Rupa Goswami's line?
Gaurasundara - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:17:19 +0530
Depends who you associate with, but as Advaita das loves to point out; it may not be pleasing to Sriman Mahaprabhu who empowered Rupa Gosvami to codify His doctrine, sri caitanya mano 'bhistam.

Anyway this is besides the point. NM is insinuating that the "babajis" are not of Rupa Gosvami's line and thus they are veritably "useless." What is the point of making a comment like that? It is obviously inflammatory.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:20:35 +0530
Betal, I don't suppose you noticed that in that Boycott... lecture, Narayan Maharaja speaks of how the sahajiya-babajis are publishing books such as [ fill in names of ADB's publications ].
Hari Saran - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 05:53:54 +0530
QUOTE(vamsidas @ Apr 23 2004, 11:44 AM)
Twenty years ago, Swami B.V. Narayana harshly criticized devotees for pursuing exactly the same behavior that he today encourages.

When ISKCON devotees sought guidance from Swami B.R. Sridhar, Narayana Maharaja demonized those devotees as offenders to their spiritual master.  In his small way, he played a part in creating the environment of hostility (and occasional violence) that ISKCON developed toward the disciples of Swami B.R. Sridhar.



Wow…. I did not know that! I thought the GBC along planted all that….?

Well, but again, his followers say that he use to instruct the GBC….

No wonder why no one appreciates his mission at SCSM.

blink.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif blink.gif
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:10:27 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 23 2004, 11:33 PM)
This was the point:
QUOTE
We have freely distributed thousands of copies in Vrndavan 3 years ago and there has not been any reply up to this day from anyone. Not even one babaji has dared to reply.


As Advaita and Madhava made clear, they have both made public documents that refute Narayan Maharaj's arguments. It is unlikely that everyone from Narayan Maharaj's group is completely unaware of these responses. That's all I wanted to communicate.

I am rather in favor of Audarya Lila's approach, which is the shastric model for Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

Ok..

cool.gif
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:13:32 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 23 2004, 11:47 PM)
Depends who you associate with, but as Advaita das loves to point out; it may not be pleasing to Sriman Mahaprabhu who empowered Rupa Gosvami to codify His doctrine, sri caitanya mano 'bhistam.

Anyway this is besides the point. NM is insinuating that the "babajis" are not of Rupa Gosvami's line and thus they are veritably "useless." What is the point of making a comment like that? It is obviously inflammatory.

This is the real issue..yes I agree!

cool.gif
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:35:22 +0530
QUOTE(betal_nut @ Apr 23 2004, 11:27 PM)
I scanned quickly through that one. 
He is not talking about all babajis.
Only "sahajiya" babajis.
Whats the biggie?

He does not mention the word 'Sahajiya' even once in that letter betal..

sorry,

bangli
cool.gif
kalki - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:47:24 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 08:39 PM)


If I witness a man stealing a car and I call him thief, then actually no thievery is going on, but I am rather faced with my persistent subconscious kleptomania.

No. If someone steals your car, it is obvious that you created the condition for someone to steal your car. So your karma has now ripened. We should rejoice. We can try and get our car back but to put all the blame on the thief rather than trying to acknowledge that we did something and now this is the repercussion, is not being honest.
Prabhupada said cheaters would be cheated, so if you look for a cheap guru, you will get one based on the fulfillment of your desire.
And so yes, if NM is constantly agitated by the babajis preaching, it shows some quality in him of perhaps competing for the fame. If we remain unagitated by our external surrounding, than that is proper. It doesn't mean we cannot have valid perception of something happening that is non-virtuous like car theft or child abuse, but to become overcome with emotion of how wrong or bad the person is might be the mistake. We could choose to take action based on a compassionate mood of freeing someone from impending suffering both the victim and perpertrator without putting blame.
Isn't that a correct understanding of karma and patita-pavana in action or am I off?

Audarya-Lila has a nice idea..."I have realized that it is much better for me to see the good in others and encourage them and if I must look for faults and someone to criticize, my time is much better spent directing that energy toward my own short comings."
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:36:11 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 24 2004, 02:17 AM)
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 08:39 PM)


If I witness a man stealing a car and I call him thief, then actually no thievery is going on, but I am rather faced with my persistent subconscious kleptomania.

No. If someone steals your car, it is obvious that you created the condition for someone to steal your car. So your karma has now ripened. We should rejoice. We can try and get our car back but to put all the blame on the thief rather than trying to acknowledge that we did something and now this is the repercussion, is not being honest.

Karma and aparadha don't work quite the same way, though. Even an entirely undeserving, pure saint may be the object of a fool's despise and harsh words.


QUOTE
If we remain unagitated by our external surrounding, than that is proper.  It doesn't mean we cannot have valid perception of something happening that is non-virtuous like car theft or child abuse, but to become overcome with emotion of how wrong or bad the person is might be the mistake.  We could choose to take action based on a compassionate mood of freeing someone from impending suffering both the victim and perpertrator without putting blame.

You have a point there, the bit about becoming overcome with emotion. Anything but dispassion when dealing with matters such as the one at hand eventually leads to the blurring of our objectivity, and subsequently to injust statements. Injust statements, again, whether directed towards a Vaishnava or an ordinary mundane man, are always harmful for the speaker himself.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:39:32 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 24 2004, 02:17 AM)
Audarya-Lila has a nice idea..."I have realized that it is much better for me to see the good in others and encourage them and if I must look for faults and someone to criticize, my time is much better spent directing that energy toward my own short comings."

It is a nice idea, and works on an individual basis. Unfortunately, it does not solve societal problems. If everyone in the world only cared for their own spiritual evolution, or for their own mundane affairs for that matter, can you imagine what a chaos the world would soon be? A group of individuals who care for the affairs of the whole must be there, and indeed must be encouraged.
vamsidas - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:39:03 +0530
QUOTE(Audarya-lila dasa @ Apr 23 2004, 06:17 PM)
I don't think anyone should stick their head in the sand, or pretend that the 'emperor has clothes on' just for political correctness or to be polite.  On the other hand, I am not sure that any good will come from dwelling on the faults of others.

My own opinion on the matter being discussed is that if you don't find a particular sanga to be beneficial to your own progress then avoid it and pay your respects from a distance.

I have never met Narayana Maharaja and I would not judge him based on second hand information.  What I do know is that he seems to have inspired many people to chant and hear about Krsna.  For that alone we should all be very grateful.

If someone here isn't inspired by him, and obviously many aren't, fine - you don't need to associate with him or read his writings.  But a certain amount of care should be given when speaking about anyone, what to speak about someone who is engaged in the service of Mahaprabhu. 

Nothing will be gained by engaging in this type of talk.  Better to simply chant and avoid those who disturb your progressive march toward 24/7 service. 

One thing I learned a long time ago is that but for the mercy of Mahaprabhu my future is very bleak.  As my Guru Maharaja has said, 'those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice'.  I have realized that it is much better for me to see the good in others and encourage them and if I must look for faults and someone to criticize, my time is much better spent directing that energy toward my own short comings.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

Audarya-lila,

I cannot disagree with your overall point.

However, I don't believe it is accidental that Kali-yuga is described as the time when Dharma is standing on its last leg, truthfulness.

A devotee who has fundamental problems with truthfulness cannot legitimately claim to be an advanced bhakta. Truthfulness is a prerequisite for advancement. Among all faults, lying is uniquely deadly both for the liar and his victims.

This is the awkward situation that some face when discussing Swami B.V. Narayana. Many believe that he has demonstrated such a consistent pattern of lies, deceits and hypocrisies that it is difficult to discuss his situation objectively.

Let me raise a parallel. Some disagree with the fundraising techniques that your Guru Maharaja pioneered. Others disagree with his current choice of close associates. Others disagree with how he has understood his gurus' orders. But he is not accused of habitually dissembling, and then claiming that he does so "for Krishna" or "for their own good."

As such, it is possible to "respect from a distance" the service he is doing, whether or not one agrees with every detail. He may be "wrong" but he is not "cheating." He is honestly practicing his service, and that should be deeply respected.

Warning devotees about a consistent liar is NOT "dwelling on the faults" of the liar. It is compassion for other devotees who might be misled by his lies.

Obviously, though, one needs to examine one's own motives carefully and be VERY careful about the facts when making such accusations. One must not exaggerate, or else the accuser has ALSO become a liar.

What if such a liar has "inspired many people to chant and hear about Krsna"? Yes, anyone who chants "Hare Krishna" deserves our respect. A liar who chants "Hare Krishna" deserves respect for chanting "Hare Krishna." However, someone who is transparently honest and without guile deserves MORE RESPECT than a habitual liar -- especially if that habitual liar expects to be treated as a pure devotee.
Jagat - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:11:47 +0530
That's a good line: "Those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice."
Advaitadas - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:22:42 +0530
As Ananta Das Ji has said in his comment on the 'cheater and liar'-sloka of Manah Siksa (6, are cetah kapata kutinati), one cannot expect to lie only to the non devotees and think/hope that it will not expand to the devotees. Deceit is deceit. You are not cheating the 'karmi' as opposed to the devotee, you are cheating God and yourself. Lying to and about devotees makes 'white' lies into ugly black lies, ugly Vaishnava aparadha, and aparadha is not just a 'slight fault'. The Shastras are full of examples that sins are easily forgiven but not aparadhas. Look at the examples of Srivasa/Gopal Capal and Ambarish/Durvasa.
jijaji - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:15:50 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Apr 23 2004, 12:07 PM)
Madhava, how well known is the "kumari massage" business?

As I said, I have it from a shocked eyewitness, an Iskcon sannyasi who was traumatised by it.


Also, what is it with him being surrounded by women? As if he is Krishna with Gopis?

- At least one could get this impression, and I don't think it is a coincidence. When I met him he was running around a house full of Iskcon paintings calling 'Gopi gopi gopi gopi...I only want to see Gopis!'

I know one other devotee who behaved like that: Bhavananda. And several of his followers committed suicide.

And this is the guy who is campaigning against Sahajiyas? No wonder his followers are confused. I sincerely fear for their sanity if they place their full faith in him as others did in Bhavananda, and Sai baba for that matter.

Interesting...

What does anyone here know about the 'midnight secret classes' that have been given by some of NM's senior sannyasis..specifically 'Aranya Maharaja'.
I have heard stories that he will hold these secret midnight 'Rasa classes' the majority of attendents being women who salivate over this guy...these women are like 'Mad' after this guy, who does allow them to get real close to him during his classes?
I have even heard they try and catch glimpses of him while he is taking a shower etc..

All very sexualized..

What gives..?

blink.gif
betal_nut - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:11:54 +0530
QUOTE
All very sexualized..

What gives..?




Are you jealous, Bangli?
Don't worry, I'll give you a secret midnight class if you like....
Madhava - Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:13:46 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Apr 24 2004, 04:45 PM)
Interesting...

What does anyone here know about the 'midnight secret classes' that have been given by some of NM's senior sannyasis..specifically 'Aranya Maharaja'.
I have heard stories that he will hold these secret  midnight 'Rasa classes' the majority of attendents being women who salivate over this guy...these women are like 'Mad' after this guy, who does allow them to get real close to him during his classes?
I have even heard they try and catch glimpses of him while he is taking a shower etc..

All very sexualized..

What gives..?

blink.gif

I've attended several of them. I spent quite a bit of time with him, and could tell many interesting stories. However, that's a bit off topic here.
nabadip - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:23:57 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 24 2004, 04:41 PM)
That's a good line: "Those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice."

It is a rewording of one of Sridhar Maharaja's central ideas.
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 03:43:40 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 24 2004, 02:41 PM)
That's a good line: "Those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice."

The practice of forgiveness somehow is not emphasized in our daily practice, as knowledge and bhajana is. However, without this essential element, what will be our life of sadhana?

When necessary, we do have to “kill the Buddha”, and that is ok. Nevertheless, if forgiveness is not present, how sure will be our next step? How real will be our bhajan? For, example, Sri Krishna forgave all of us, Sri Gurudeva forgave all of us, so why it is so impossible for us to forgive Them?

We have to eliminate to progress, and that is true, but to progress without forgiveness is just like to announcing the departure of the ship with the ropes holding it. In other word, "elimination and forgiveness" walk hand-in-hand on the same side of the road and that is a fundamental part sadhana.

In conclusion, without forgiveness that is not a real progress derived from elimination.

Radhe Radhe !
jijaji - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 06:56:29 +0530
Thanks....

laugh.gif
kalki - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:48:21 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 24 2004, 02:41 PM)
That's a good line: "Those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice."

I like the idea of "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" much better than that one. Just because we are receiving mercy, doesn't mean we should give up discrimination in judgement. We are receiving mercy through the holy name via the sadhaka that we are inspired by, so the holy name may show us that something smells fishy. So we have to use some discriminatiing wisdom without the tendency to label sinner to the person who exhibits an unvirtuous quality. So I would compare blaming and labeling to throwing a stone, whereas I think it is okay to observe and make choices and even talk about it.
kalki - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:59:49 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 24 2004, 09:06 AM)
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 24 2004, 02:17 AM)
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 23 2004, 08:39 PM)


If I witness a man stealing a car and I call him thief, then actually no thievery is going on, but I am rather faced with my persistent subconscious kleptomania.

No. If someone steals your car, it is obvious that you created the condition for someone to steal your car. So your karma has now ripened. We should rejoice. We can try and get our car back but to put all the blame on the thief rather than trying to acknowledge that we did something and now this is the repercussion, is not being honest.

Karma and aparadha don't work quite the same way, though. Even an entirely undeserving, pure saint may be the object of a fool's despise and harsh words.



Is that really true that a saintly person is bereft of all karma. The Dalai Lama understands the situation in Tibet as their collective karma, so he advocates practicing compassion while in prison being tortured and beaten by Chinese guards. He advocates the understanding that it is the karma of the monks to be in that condition and also it is his karma to be the leader of Tibet and be faced with ways of trying to end the suffering. He doesn't remain silent though, he speaks against the injustice particularly for the sake of the aggressor not accumulating bad karma from the deed.
In Buddhism, we don't really say that the lama is suffering from karma when he is sick, the same way vaishnava acharyas are said to not suffer karma for sickness. What is said in both cases is that for the sake of the disciples and the rest of the world to have some service and learn lessons, he appears to the ordinary vision to manifest sickness.
Personally, I think it is still karma but some sort of spiritualized karma to serve a purpose.
braja - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:59:59 +0530
QUOTE(nabadip @ Apr 24 2004, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 24 2004, 04:41 PM)
That's a good line: "Those who are standing the the mercy line should not cry out for justice."

It is a rewording of one of Sridhar Maharaja's central ideas.

QUOTE
Sometimes we want causeless mercy; at the same time we can't tolerate others in that same line. We go to judge in the case of others: "Why should he receive causeless mercy? He has got so many defects, so much anti-attitude and disqualification, why should he be accepted or given any chance?" But for us - we want, "Don't come to judge me, otherwise I have no hope, my Lord."

Jnana-sunya-bhakti. "If You come to judge, I have got no hope. Please grant grace, then I can hope to approach You, to offer myself to make progress towards You; if You become very lenient, not to find fault with me"; but if at the same time, in the same breath, we say, "Why should this disqualified man get any grace? Why should he get some mercy and affection?" that is hypocrisy in us, and that causes a great deal of difficulty within us. It is suicidal....That is most dangerous for our own progress; it is suicidal. If in my case I want something higher, but in the case of others I can't tolerate the same behavior of the Lord, that is a most difficult position.


BR Sridhara Maharaja :: Sermons of the Guardian of Devotion, Volume Two
http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/books/SERMONS2.PDF

I've put the entire section in Copy and Paste
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:04:03 +0530
QUOTE(Kalki)
Just because we are receiving mercy, doesn't mean we should give up discrimination in judgment.


If God had to judge us how would that be? Would we receive anything based on the judgments of our qualities? So, now that I got His mercy, which was freely given, I will start to judge Him and His ways of giving… Is that right?

If something went wrong while Sri Krishna was trying to help me, well, I forgive Him. I tried, He tried, did not work out? So what? We try again! There are a lot of aspects of His mercy that for sure will make me happy.

Does the Gopis forgive Syama? Yes, they do! Does Sri Radhika forgive Syama? Yes, She does! So why we can’t forgive Him? He forgave and tried His best based on our desires. So now, how can I blame Him or His ways of mercy?
Madhava - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:11:05 +0530
I don't get the point here. To be devotional, we should not judge anything or anyone? In the name of forgiveness, we should let go and let be, even with habitual doers of injustice. Does forgiveness mean we should forget and neglect, pretend as if nothing ever happened?
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:25:10 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 25 2004, 07:41 AM)
I don't get the point here. To be devotional, we should not judge anything or anyone? In the name of forgiveness, we should let go and let be, even with habitual doers of injustice. Does forgiveness mean we should forget and neglect, pretend as if nothing ever happened?

Off course not! However, it will be entirely upon you how you want to review the lesson.
kalki - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:30:44 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 25 2004, 07:41 AM)
I don't get the point here. To be devotional, we should not judge anything or anyone? In the name of forgiveness, we should let go and let be, even with habitual doers of injustice. Does forgiveness mean we should forget and neglect, pretend as if nothing ever happened?

No I don't think that is the way. Like Hari Saran is saying, the Lord gives us mercy and forgives all, but that is not our position to be like the Lord. We can forgive a murderer for killing and have a merciful and compassionate attitude toward him, but we should discriminate between right and wrong.
I don't think Hari Saran knew what I meant by discriminating judgement. The above is how I mean it.
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:42:30 +0530
I understood your point. I just wanted to add how we got the mercy; freely, without judgements.
kalki - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:49:06 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ Apr 25 2004, 08:12 AM)
I understood your point. I just wanted to add how we got the mercy; freely, without judgements.

That is not really true. When the Lord issues mercy, it is sometimes harsh, like Krishna killing the demons results in the mercy of liberation. When the Guru issues mercy, it is sometimes harsh, like a kick in the head, or a chastisement. It may be considered mercy if saint corrects you and you are not even a student.
I would think sometimes mercy does come in the form of judgement.
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:04:57 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 25 2004, 08:19 AM)
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ Apr 25 2004, 08:12 AM)
I understood your point. I just wanted to add how we got the mercy; freely, without judgements.

That is not really true. When the Lord issues mercy, it is sometimes harsh, like Krishna killing the demons results in the mercy of liberation. When the Guru issues mercy, it is sometimes harsh, like a kick in the head, or a chastisement. It may be considered mercy if saint corrects you and you are not even a student.
I would think sometimes mercy does come in the form of judgement.

The only thing I can say here is that I have no qualities, for me, mercy came without judgments. Therefore, I do not fell good to judge others.
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:24:27 +0530
QUOTE
The only thing I can say here is that I have no qualities, for me, mercy came without judgments.


I don't know about this Hariji, it sounds a bit like mayavada to me. You must have some quality, good or bad, which has attracted Krsna's mercy. Remember, He doesn't create your mood. He reciprocates.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:41:10 +0530
Jay Radhe!

I understand the calling for compassion, mercy and humility as they are part of the canon of vaishnava behaviour. However, the historically misinformation and character assasination used by Sri BSST, BRSM, ACBSP as a recruitment tool or as a consolidation of group culture; has been documented that there maybe some justification for their existence in the past. However, today use of the same technique by Sri Narayana Maharaja with the same purpose is no more than a shadow as a by product of the lock of goodness and beauty thereof.

Therefore, since Narayana Maharaja is still employing such a divisive tool, it must be confronted and unmasked. It is an absolute requirement, something that should be done without fail, it is necesary and inevitable. The five essays written by him must be broken into pieces, pulvorized, without a doubt. Having the capacity to do so, you decided to go around just moving the duality scale of good and bad, it is a complicity of such abominable behaviour. However, do as you wish.
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:01:23 +0530
In other words, you are calling for retaliation. In this regard, I have a question. Does anyone here knows why when NM went intently to Radhakunda to challange those he believed were spreading wrong conclusions, why didn't anyone seize the opportunity then to expose maharaja, or at least attempt to minimize his trangression? I believe I heard there was a challenge to a debate to which "no one came". Is this correct? And if so, Why not?
Jagat - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:03:11 +0530
I was thinking of closing this thread yesterday, but Vamsi Das made some good points and I started composing the reply below. Unfortunately, my modem disconnected suddenly and I lost the first, (much better) version, and then I was away for the rest of the day. The discussion has now moved on in what I see as a very positive direction. Rather than discussing Narayan Maharaj specifically, we are on to bigger issues. Usually, things tend to go the other way and I was afraid that was what was happening.


satyaM brUyAt priyaM brUyat
na brUyAt satyam apriyam
priyaM ca nAnRtaM brUyat
eSa dharmaH sanAtanaH
Speak the truth and speak the pleasant. But speak neither unpleasant truths, nor palatable lies. This is the eternal path of righteousness.
Srila Prabhupada sometimes referred to this verse of popular Sanskrit wisdom (Chanakya), but he always did so to indicate that it was a relative instruction or social convention, meant for this world but not for the transcendentalist. A devotee is to speak the unblemished truth for the benefit of others, even if it is unpleasant:
The world situation is such that you should only speak the truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, then you should not. But this convention cannot be maintained when you are preaching the spiritual life. In such matters we cannot cheat, but must declared [the truth] of spiritual life very frankly. (681020LE.SEA)

…It may be very unpalatable, but these are the facts. satyaM brUyAt priyaM brUyat na brUyAt satyam apriyam. According to social conventions, if you want to speak truth, you must limit yourself to truths that are palatable and flattering. Don't speak unpalatable truths. But we are not meant to merely follow social conventions. We are preachers and servants of God. We must speak the real truth. You may or may not like hearing that a godless civilization cannot be happy in any stage, but it is a fact. Therefore we have started this Krishna consciousness movement to awaken this godless civilization, so that everyone will try to love God. (770103RC.BOM) (Both quotes edited by me.)
This is the spirit of heroic righteousness, of prophetical mission, of conviction and zeal. It's the spirit of the knight in shining armor, the heroic spirit, such as we see in Kundali's mission of revealing the GBC emperor's naked state. This is the prophetic mood, of crying out in the wilderness, telling the unpleasant truth that no one wants to hear: the Word of God.

Now there is definitely a place for the prophetic approach. How many disciples of Iskcon would have been convinced by a soft-sell? The appearance of uncompromising devotion to the truth has a special appeal for the young and disillusioned.

But in the long run, I think that this approach eventually hits a brick wall. Though I have know my zealous moments, I think that diplomacy is far too underrated. First of all, as someone has already mentioned, humility obliges us to remember the following: Furthermore, Dale Carnegie has shown how effective diplomatic behavior can be in persuasion. Confrontation as an approach to preaching is more likely than not going to result in a negative result. In fact, what upsets so many about Narayan Maharaj seems to be that he has himself apparently broken so many of these rules of diplomacy that he is resented by people on all sides of his group.

Krishna himself advises a diplomatic approach:

na buddhi-bhedaM janayed
ajJAnAM karma-saGginAm
joSayet sarva-karmANi
vidvAn yuktaH samAcaran
Do not disrupt the minds of the ignorant by telling them to renounce the responsibilities with which they are comfortable. Rather, you should encourage them to engage in those activities, while similarly being engaged in one's own prescribed duties in a disciplined fashion.(Gita 3.26)
This is not, as many devotees take it, an instruction for jnanis. It's about punctual renunciation. It's about all truths. It is global as well, in the sense that this entire world is ultimately false and we must renounce everything, but this is a long way off for nearly everyone. It's all about adhikara.

The thing is not to be astonished by the presence of evil, or at least not to become so self-righteous about evil, but rather to expect it. Expect hypocrisy and show approbation for the opposite rather than expecting some fantasy idea of perfection and then being inevitably let down.

So, the Chanakya instruction is a general principle, a sliding scale. Ideally, you should speak the truth and you should speak pleasingly. And neither principle should be compromised for the other. We have to judge for ourselves where on the sliding scale between pleasant lies and unpleasant truths a particular situation lies.

So when are unpleasant truths permitted? William James (The Will to Believe) offers the helpful concept of options, of which there are three kinds: (1) living or dead; (2) forced or avoidable; (3) momentous or trivial. Though this is a different context from James, who is discussing Pascal's wager, I think that the idea of options is applicable here, too.

So, when should I engage in criticism of another on the grounds that truth outweighs pleasantness?

Here is James' explanation:
1. A living option is one in which both hypotheses are live ones. If I say to you: "Be a theosophist or be a Mohammedan," it is probably a dead option, because for you neither hypothesis is likely to be alive. But if I say: " Be an agnostic or be Christian," it is otherwise: trained as you are, each hypothesis makes some appeal, however small, to your belief.

2. Next, if I say to you: " Choose between going out with your umbrella or without it," I do not offer you a genuine option, for it is not forced. You can easily avoid it by not going out at all. Similarly, if I say, " Either love me or hate me," " Either call my theory true or call it false," your option is avoidable. You may remain indifferent to me, neither loving nor hating, and you may decline to offer any judgment as to my theory. But if I say, " Either accept this truth or go without it," I put on you a forced option, for there is no standing place outside of the alternative. Every dilemma based on a complete logical disjunction, with no possibility of not choosing, is an option of this forced kind.

3. Finally, if I were Dr. Nansen and proposed to you to join my North Pole expedition, your option would be momentous; for this would probably be your only similar opportunity, and your choice now would either exclude you from the North Pole sort of immortality altogether or put at least the chance of it into your hands. He who refuses to embrace a unique opportunity loses the prize as surely as if he tried and failed. Per contra, the option is trivial when the opportunity is not unique, when the stake is insignificant, or when the decision is reversible if it later prove unwise. Such trivial options abound in the scientific life. A chemist finds an hypothesis live enough to spend a year in its verification: he believes in it to that extent. But if his experiments prove inconclusive either way, he is quit for his loss of time, no vital harm being done.
In other words, there is no point in disrupting the minds of the ignorant if what you have to say is a dead, trivial or avoidable option.

Society is a network of tacit complicities with untruth. Relative truths are sometimes necessary stepping stones to the Absolute and one should proceed with care when disrupting these relative conceptions of life.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:20:34 +0530
I am not calling for retaliation, I am calling to putting a stop to it.

Read the same paragraph again, use your intelligence and then you will see the contradiction. If you cannot see it I may help you.

However, Could you imagine a holy person, responding to such a type (form and content) of challenging? He is probabily thinking 'This conditioned soul is just afflicted by fame, if he comes to me, I must agree with whatever he is saying."
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:21:50 +0530
Jagat,

I apologize if this is tiresome to you, but I must ask for my own orientation: does your last post here have any relation to my questions which were posted just immediatelly before yours, or one thing has nothing to do with the other? And if yours is indeed related to the questions, would you care to explain a little clearly what is your reply? Actually, why don't you explain this last post, period. All this sastra you quote, without directions to what it aplies to, sound like riddles to me. Sorry.


My apologies. I made a partial post. Hopefully your mind has now been set at ease. -- Jagat
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:23:02 +0530
Rasmrta,
Has anyone asked the holy persons what they think of this challange and what attitude to adopt towards it?
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:33:51 +0530
I believe, you should direct that question to Advaita or read his previous posts.
It is an indication to pulvorized the five essays. If you have the capacity please do it.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:48:01 +0530
QUOTE
It is rare that we know everything about a situation, so we should be careful about our subjective assumptions. It may be permitted to be candid about such feelings in limited circles, but it is dangerous to go on a mission.


What is so subjective in this case? Everything is written down with black ink on white paper all over the word as a propaganda tool.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:50:52 +0530
QUOTE
Circumstances change. Not only may the person we criticize have once been good and only become corrupt, he may have been corrupt and changed for the better. In either case, it behooves us to always remember the good.


From a point of view of the soul, we should be above such dualities. We have no personal agenda.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:53:53 +0530
QUOTE
In the same vein, we are also subject to hypocrisy, which often puts us in the same position as the person we criticize. The pot calling the kettle black syndrome.


When you can prove my hypocrisy, please bestow your mercy on me. Shastra is above such dualities.
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 19:59:05 +0530
QUOTE
Krishna himself advises a diplomatic approach:


na buddhi-bhedaM janayed
ajJAnAM karma-saGginAm
joSayet sarva-karmANi
vidvAn yuktaH samAcaran
Do not disrupt the minds of the ignorant by telling them to renounce the responsibilities with which they are comfortable. Rather, you should encourage them to engage in those activities, while similarly being engaged in one's own prescribed duties in a disciplined fashion.(Gita 3.26)



Not applicable in this case, we are not trying to convince or confront the ignorant. But a framework for the one who is searching must be created if I have the capacity to do so. Truly, compassion.
vamsidas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:26:56 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 25 2004, 09:33 AM)
Society is a network of tacit complicities with untruth. Relative truths are sometimes necessary stepping stones to the Absolute and one should proceed with care when disrupting these relative conceptions of life.

I would not characterize the matter so harshly. To say that society "is a network of tacit complicities with untruth" is a philosophical point that is only true on such a generalized level that it is not terribly useful as a principle by which we can ensure appropriate action.

Perhaps it would be better simply to acknowledge that different communities share different tacit understandings of truth. When those communities come into contact, conflicts may arise because of the different tacit understandings.

In such cases, don't we need to consider carefully the questions: "who is our audience?" and "what is our community?" and "what are our community's tacit understandings?" Then we need to remember that communications which might be helpful and appropriate within a community may be unhelpful and inappropriate between communities.

I have understood that these forums are, first and foremost, a community of devotees who share certain "tacit understandings" which provide our common framework.

Perhaps the most basic shared "tacit understanding" here is that the diksha-lines descending from Mahaprabhu's associates are currently bona-fide, and that it can be appropriate for Westerners to enter into those lines even if they have a "previous history" elsewhere in the broader tradition.

Some devotees in the broader tradition do not share this tacit understanding. When they come into this comunity and trumpet their disagreement, they shoud realize that they need to use extra care and diplomacy when challenging our tacit understanding. If they lack diplomacy, they should not be surprised when they receive undiplomatic responses. Not that such undiplomatic responses are justified, but they are certainly predictable and understandable.

This community, however, has an added burden in that it is rather public. If we entirely self-censored our discussion, the unique characteristics of this community would disappear. However, if we were to let ourselves speak without fetter, unconcerned about visitors whose own tacit understandings we are challenging, we would risk creating hurt and causing offense.

Finding the proper balance is a challenge, but we have no choice but to make the attempt.
Jagat - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:38:20 +0530
As is often the case when there are so many intelligent people on a discussion group, I reach a point where I am unable to step up to the plate and answer everything. My previous post went up even though I knew it was flawed in many ways.

I am not advocating fence sitting, nor am I seeking compromise with the truth. I am looking for a personal rule of thumb for how to approach such questions.

As far as this forum is concerned, the principle is to allow everyone to speak freely as long as it remains within the parameters of civility--which will be judged according to the subjectively-clouded whimsy of the moderators biggrin.gif


Let me take this opportunity to thank everyone who makes considered posts on any subject. Every single well-thought out sentence is a concrete block in the temple of understanding the life of devotion. If, in the course of any such discussion, any of you should wish to assemble your thoughts, add a little research, etc., and write a full blown article for a somewhat more permanent status on the Editorials page, we heartily welcome such contributions.
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:47:00 +0530
If anyone is interested to know my opinion about Narayna Maharaja, for me, he is a man like any another on this planet that makes mistake. His mistakes do not make him better or bad if comparing to others that may have made the same mistakes.

As I do not have qualities and knowledge to understand the absolute, I do refrain myself when the danger of judgment is on my path. Moreover, as I’m expecting no one to follow anything said here, do, as you may want to please yourself.
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:52:53 +0530
QUOTE
Anand:
In other words, you are calling for retaliation. In this regard, I have a question. Does anyone here knows why when NM went intently to Radhakunda to challange those he believed were spreading wrong conclusions, why didn't anyone seize the opportunity then to expose maharaja, or at least attempt to minimize his trangression? I believe I heard there was a challenge to a debate to which "no one came". Is this correct? And if so, Why not?


Dear Anand, Narayan Maharaja said he challenged the babajis and they had a debate for 3 hours - nobody came. He is speaking without sense. How can you have a debate for 3 hours and nobody came? Whom did he debate with then? With no one? The fact is that he comes occasionally to the Gopinath Mandir - the main temple of Radhakund - loudly blasphemes the Vaishnavas there in front of the open deities - and then goes away. It is not that he personally approaches the Vaishnavas to challenge them. If he would do that he would either meet indifference, because the Vaishnavas there are not aggresssors and rarely defenders, they simply do bhajan, or if anyone would bother to respond to him he would be squarely defeated, even on basic issues. He is an habitual liar, as Adiyen said. He just lies and lies and lies and lies. I saw him at Radhakund last March. He was walking over the parikrama marg, not speaking with anyone. Babajis ignore him, not even knowing who the man is. If he did distribute 1000s of copies of his Prabandha Pancakam I would like to know to whom, but not to the Babajis, who generally dont know English anyway. I have not seen a single copy of this book at Radhakund. Such scenes as NM brags of I have not seen at Radhakund in the 23 years that I have been coming and staying there.
nabadip - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:02:36 +0530
I would like to express my appreciation to Jagatji's endeavour to line up standards for personal reflection when dealing with truth/untruth. We are highly individualized persons communicating here, most of us aware that a consensus on "what is" may be approachable, but a consensus on "what should be" impossible. We are as we are, everyone with his/her own standards of how to do things, how to respond, how to think, how to act. Let us remember: we are personalists. Personality will always express difference, while existing on the basis of unity.

Joy Nitai.
jijaji - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:04:53 +0530
Jagat:
I was thinking of closing this thread yesterday, but Vamsi Das made some good points and I started composing the reply below. Unfortunately, my modem disconnected suddenly and I lost the first, (much better) version, and then I was away for the rest of the day. The discussion has now moved on in what I see as a very positive direction. Rather than discussing Narayan Maharaj specifically, we are on to bigger issues. Usually, things tend to go the other way and I was afraid that was what was happening.

bangli:
I don't get it Jagat..?
Your the one who started this thread about NM by posting that letter he wrote.
Of course you must have known some of the devotees here who are disciples of Ananta Das Baba and others like Advaita would react to his attacks.... and now you want to stop it..?

What gives..?

blink.gif
nabadip - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:10:00 +0530
I would also like to express appreciation to adiyen and Advaitadas for naming the facts what they are. NM is a man collecting followers. Therefore it is a service to those giving their lives in order to gain a higher life, to know who is who and what they are doing. Cheaters need to be exposed. That is service to mankind.

Joy Nitai.
Hari Saran - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:17:04 +0530
QUOTE(nabadip @ Apr 25 2004, 03:40 PM)
I would also like to express appreciation to adiyen and Advaitadas for naming the facts what they are. NM is a man collecting followers. Therefore it is a service to those giving their lives in order to gain a higher life, to know who is who and what they are doing. Cheaters need to be exposed. That is service to mankind.

Joy Nitai.

I do appreciated that too, especially when the raja mood is not present on writing.

Radhe!
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:22:43 +0530
QUOTE
I would also like to express appreciation to adiyen and Advaitadas for naming the facts what they are.


Thanks should also be given to Madhava, who exposed the NM brutalities in this thread (this is only a tip of the iceberg - the beating up of the police man is not mentioned, the aggressive picketing of Iskcon temples, the invasion of La Nouvelle Mayapur in France etc etc, and things I'd better only PM) plus defeating his nonsensical views, like Paurnamasi introducing Red cloth on earth for Bhaktisiddhanta's followers and myriads of other heretical speculations that are often laughable, in his pdf files. I also did not mention the plagiarism and the slander of yours truly yet. Wait for it folks!
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:25:29 +0530
Advaitadas,

So this is the difficulty, that someone went to debate with... NOBODY for three hours? If a clarification of this contradiction is so pivotal, and logically it seems to be, then your clarification would be simply a phone call away. No one who is disagreeing with the words and acts of NM seems to be so concerned in verifying the facts from his point of view. My understanding is that the traditional sects at radhakunda dismiss Saraswati's line ultimately, and those who have dedicated their lives to this line, are to be left without a word...

Someone is mentioning personalism in this discussion. You can't dismiss your oponent. Ignore it and it will go away, only to come around back to you like a Tsunami. So, where is the higher ground?
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:25:53 +0530
QUOTE
I do appreciated that too, especially when the raja mood is not present on writing.

Radhe!


Justified indignation, or standing up for the truth is not raja guna. Was Mahaprabhu in rajoguna when he wanted to behead Jagai and Madhai?
jijaji - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:39:56 +0530
Was is not BSS himself who started this campaign against the Babas because he was humiliated by RamaKrishna das babaji and thrown out of his ashram for taking disciples without having diksha..?

And today we see all followers of GM and branches continue with this misplaced, uninformed crap! When in fact THEY are the ones who are mislead and continue with their sadhu-ninda while arrogantly thinking they are the be-all and end-all of Gaudiya Vaishnavism..


innocent.gif
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:40:20 +0530
QUOTE
So this is the difficulty, that someone went to debate with... NOBODY for three hours? If a clarification of this contradiction is so pivotal, and logically it seems to be, then your clarification would be simply a phone call away. No one who is disagreeing with the words and acts of NM seems to be so concerned in verifying the facts from his point of view.


Please dont think devotees will interrupt their bhajan to ask an unknown person to them how one can have a debate for 3 hours with no one. You over-estimate the status of the BSS people at Radhakund. Their flaws are well known and well discussed, they have their vested interests, they will never give them up, why would anyone bother to debate them, if challenged at all? He simply does not challenge them, he is just lying.

QUOTE
My understanding is that the traditional sects at radhakunda dismiss Saraswati's line ultimately, and those who have dedicated their lives to this line, are to be left without a word...


When it is wrong it is wrong, people may or may not respond to it. The Gosvamis say A, Bhaktisiddhanta says Z. The Gosvamis say north and BSS says south. What else is there to do? Since BSS died 67 years ago there is only one way to correct the flaw - leave him.

QUOTE
Someone is mentioning personalism in this discussion. You can't dismiss your oponent. Ignore it and it will go away, only to come around back to you like a Tsunami. So, where is the higher ground?


Personalism does not mean preaching to the hopeless cases. As a matter of fact it is an offence to the chanting of the holy name - asraddhane'py asrnvanti vimukhe pi yascopadesha - preaching to the faithless, the averse and those who do not listen.
Rasaraja dasa - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:43:26 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 07:55 AM)
Advaitadas,

So this is the difficulty, that someone went to debate with... NOBODY for three hours? If a clarification of this contradiction is so pivotal, and logically it seems to be, then your clarification would be simply a phone call away. No one who is disagreeing with the words and acts of NM seems to be so concerned in verifying the facts from his point of view. My understanding is that the traditional sects at radhakunda dismiss Saraswati's line ultimately, and those who have dedicated their lives to this line, are to be left without a word...

Someone is mentioning personalism in this discussion. You can't dismiss your oponent. Ignore it and it will go away, only to come around back to  you like a Tsunami. So, where is the higher ground?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Interesting point Anand. However Srila Narayana Maharaja believes in the same tact. I remember 9 years ago when the “Ritviks” made the same challenge in Vrindavan to ISKCON Leaders and Srila Narayana Maharaja told them to simply ignore the "challenge" as it was both a waste of their time and led to unnecessary hearing and discussing what he deemed to be a subject driven by aparadha.

So your point that "You can't dismiss your oponent. Ignore it and it will go away, only to come around back to you like a Tsunami. So, where is the higher ground?" fits the same situation as stated above. If you are being asked to debate someone who will never reflect on, consider or respect your points why would one bother to debate? As Srila Narayana Maharaja pointed out himself it is a waste of ones precious time even if the person has seemingly "dedicated their life(s)" to their understanding and you unnecessarily are subjected to hearing offensive statements about ones Guardians.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Jagat - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:46:42 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Apr 25 2004, 11:34 AM)
What gives..?

Resentment and cycles of resentment require defusion somewhere. I don't just want to belong to the side that is right, but to the side that is morally superior also. In spiritual life, being right may not be as important as being a superior entity. I would be wary of too much justification of violence and anger.
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:51:13 +0530
QUOTE
I would be wary of too much justification of violence and anger.


That would place you firmly in the anti-NM camp ! biggrin.gif
jijaji - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:52:09 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Apr 25 2004, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE(bangli @ Apr 25 2004, 11:34 AM)
What gives..?

Resentment and cycles of resentment require defusion somewhere. I don't just want to belong to the side that is right, but to the side that is morally superior also. In spiritual life, being right may not be as important as being a superior entity. I would be wary of too much justification of violence and anger.

Fair enough I guess...

But you did start the thread Jagat..


cool.gif
jijaji - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:53:08 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 25 2004, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE

I would be wary of too much justification of violence and anger.


That would place you firmly in the anti-NM camp ! biggrin.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Madhava - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:29:43 +0530
About this debate, who would be interested to debate with a person who is mainly concerned with intimidating you and pushing through his own views with little concern for yours, as you are a priori wrong?

Reminds me of the days when people start book distribution in ISKCON, and meet their first dozen born-again Christians, and they intensely "debate" and try to refute each other.
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:39:15 +0530
Advaitadas,

No offense, but it seems to me in this case you are programed to function as a sort of living lie-detector, there is no arguing with such a stand.

Rasaraj das,

Until this debate is an actual event, there is no point in evaluating its validity and assuming its outcome. It is simply conjectures, so far. So where are the offenses commited during a debate that never happened?


According to Subal das, Sarasvati Thakur was encouraged by his brother, Lalita Prasad, to make up a new sucession line. So what is the question of it no being connected with the tradition?

Personally I do not resent anything in this matter. I am bewildered about a situation that seems to go round and round in circles. Where is the way out?
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:41:14 +0530
Madhava,

You did create this little corner here for those who seem not be able to live without debating Iskcon and GM issues. Hang in there and they might eventually go away!
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:42:52 +0530
QUOTE
Advaitadas,

No offense, but it seems to me in this case you are programed to function as a sort of living lie-detector, there is no arguing with such a stand.


I dont seek the lies, they are coming to me. Shall I say it is all honeypie and roses? I dont know NM personally, all his outrages reach me through all the media imaginable. It is unavoidable. Since when is self defence a crime? I am not seeking confrontation.
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:45:16 +0530
QUOTE
According to Subal das, Sarasvati Thakur was encouraged by his brother, Lalita Prasad, to make up a new sucession line. So what is the question of it no being connected with the tradition?


Who is Lalit Prasad? Is he above the law? Who can make up a new succession line? Where is the allegiance then? What new is there to invent? Everything is already there in the Gosvamis books.
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:50:39 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 05:11 PM)
Madhava,

You did create this little corner here for those who seem not be able to live without debating Iskcon and GM issues. Hang in there and they might eventually go away!

Your good self has posted 12 times in this thread alone. laugh.gif
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:58:38 +0530
Advaitadas,

I am sure you know, better than me, who Lalita Prasad is. And since you seem to also know better than most who the Gosvamis are, there is apparently no point in discussing the matter any further.

You know what the Goswamis are about, and those who don't will just have to live without them. Correct?

You offer us a deal we CAN'T refuse!
Advaitadas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:04:57 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 05:28 PM)
Advaitadas,

I am sure you know, better than me, who Lalita Prasad is. And since you seem to also know better than most  who the Gosvamis are, there is apparently no point in discussing the matter any further.

You know what the Goswamis are about, and those who don't will just have to live without them. Correct?

You offer us a deal we CAN'T refuse!

I have never met Lalit Prasad, but it is irrelevant. Mahaprabhu has empowered and ordered the Gosvamis to teach bhakti on his behalf. Whatever they say goes. That is simple obedience.
Why would you want to live without them? Live with them and be astonished!
It is a deal I wouldnt refuse. Why should you?
vamsidas - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:22:40 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 01:09 PM)
According to Subal das, Sarasvati Thakur was encouraged by his brother, Lalita Prasad, to make up a new sucession line. So what is the question of it no being connected with the tradition? ...

I am bewildered about a situation that seems to go round and round in circles


Anand,

If you cannot see the self-contradiction and non-sequitur in your above statement, then you are indeed bewildered.

I wonder whether that bewilderment is partly the result of "cognitive dissonance" that you may be experiencing? I notice from your posts at www.gaudiyadiscussions.com that you seem to be applying radically different standards of evidence to your relationships with Bir Krishna Goswami and Swami B.V. Narayana.

Perhaps you would be less bewildered if you tried a little experiment. First, apply to Bir Krishna Goswami the same generous standard that you apply to Swami B.V. Narayana. Then, apply to Swami B.V. Narayana the same rigorous standard that you apply to Bir Krishna Goswami.

If nothing else, when you examine your approach to Bir Krishna Goswami, you may gain some empathy for the way some others feel about Swami B.V. Narayana. And you might even discover that you are doing to Bir Krishna Goswami exactly what it pains you to see others doing to Swami B.V. Narayana -- which might even prompt you to work at healing some relationships.
Jagat - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:22:47 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Apr 25 2004, 12:22 PM)
Fair enough I guess...But you did start the thread Jagat..

Why not? Madhava first wrote his questions to Narayan Maharaj on reading Prabandha-panchaka several years ago when he was still in his camp. Therefore, it is hard to see how Narayan Maharaj and his inner circle were not aware of Madhava's activities then and now. Advaitaji is well-known to the NM camp because they read his translations. They no doubt know that he is outspoken on all these issues. Nitai and others have written at length on many of the same subjects. So I posted that for Advaita and Madhava's information.

Admittedly, I did so because I found NM's statement that no one had answered him rather dishonest and so I made it public. But my position does not change for all that. I am not going out and knocking on Narayan Maharaj's disciples doors and telling them their guru's a liar. I don't think that would be appropriate. However, if anyone comes to this site, he should be aware that those who post prominently here have difficulties with these matters and will not hesitate to expose them. The same goes for any problems we see in the Iskcon/Gaudiya Math in general. This is not done out of malice, but out of a spirit of loyalty to what we see as the mood and teaching of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Six Goswamis.

After this, there are other concerns in which we have rather differing approaches. Some of us think that the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon have certain value in the grand scheme of things and that those who belong to those groups should be given a certain amount of respect, over and above what is due to every creature for being Krishna-adhisthana, whatever considerations of aparadh, sin, misbehavior, apasiddhanta, lack of parampara, etc., etc., there may be. This is about priyam as well as satyam.

I don't think that there is any fundamental contradiction in my starting this thread and my position vis-à-vis the Gaudiya Math or any of its preachers. I think that these are valid issues that need to be clarified. There are deep feelings that need to be resolved in a way that is most harmonious to the Vaishnava ideal. I am not simply talking about exposing the faults on "the other side," but about coming to terms with it in a way that would be pleasing to the non-sectarian Supreme Truth.

True enough, topics related to Iskcon/GM tend to stir up more heat than topics about Radha-Krishna or other theological or philosophical issues. It is, I suppose, a measure of our true level of spiritual advancement.
Rasaraja dasa - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:31:17 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 09:09 AM)
Rasaraj das,

Until this debate is an actual event, there is no point in evaluating its validity and assuming its outcome. It is simply conjectures, so far. So where are the offenses commited during a debate that never happened?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

You missed to majority of my point which was that Narayana Maharaja believes in not "debating" those he finds irrelevant. Again he made the same decision 9 years ago when the “Ritviks” made the same challenge in Vrindavan to ISKCON Leaders and Srila Narayana Maharaja told them to simply ignore the "challenge" as it was both a waste of their time and led to unnecessary hearing and discussing what he deemed to be a subject driven by aparadha. These devotees listened to them and the ritviks still pound their chests that "No one showed and thus it proves they were defeated!" Isn't this the same thing?

So your point that "You can't dismiss your oponent. Ignore it and it will go away, only to come around back to you like a Tsunami. So, where is the higher ground?" fits the same situation as stated above.

The fact of the matter is Srila Narayana Maharaja's point was that there is nothing to be gained by debating someone who will never reflect on, consider or respect your points why would one bother to debate? As Srila Narayana Maharaja pointed out himself it is a waste of ones precious time even if the person has seemingly "dedicated their life(s)" to their understanding and you unnecessarily are subjected to hearing offensive statements about ones Guardians. If you don't consider calling an entire community of devotees outside of your own family "fallen" or "sahajiya" on offense then what can I tell you.

I also agree with the Vamsidas' post that you seem to apply radically different standards in regards to how you evaluation the character, actions and word of Swami B.V. Narayana then you do to others. You have to be consistent when having dialogue with those who have a different approach.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
RasaMrita - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:50:43 +0530
QUOTE
I am not going out and knocking on Narayan Maharaj's disciples doors and telling them their guru's a liar. On the contrary, I don't think that would be appropriate.


Interesting. I would like that Narayana Maharaja and his disciples emulate Jagat behaviour. Then, the existence of this thread will be unnecessary.

Unfortunately, his political ambitions of taking over ISKCON and destroying the babajis would be predominant in his conduct.
Anand - Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:58:44 +0530
Advaitadas,

The Goswamis are a mystery to me. I am reluctant to take your word for what is the secret behind Them, though. Fogive me for that.

Rasaraj das,

If those at radhakunda who are in a position to shed light onto the dark areas (or the total blackout, if you will) of a challenger's present debatable conception, than I don't see why these higher persons will not come out and do so. If for no other reason, they could do this so make a genuine display of extended compassion.

Vamsidas,

I have made that experiment already, and it went quite well. My relashionship with BK is peaches these days, and so it is with SNM. I am trying to ge through with this group here now.

I didn't quite grasp one thing though: What part of my statement is self-contradicting? The part of a new line being connected with The Tradition?
jijaji - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:39 +0530
Hare Krishna

biggrin.gif
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:06:06 +0530
QUOTE
Advaitadas,

The Goswamis are a mystery to me. I am reluctant to take your word for what is the secret behind Them, though. Fogive me for that.


I may humbly suggest that I have been studying their granthas for the last 22 years and have been associating with rupanuga vaishnavas for the same amount of time. I also have translated a large number of their works into English and received a lot of praise for that across the board. Such are my modest credentials......... blush.gif

If you have any areas in which you believe I have misunderstood them then kindly tell me and we can discuss it.
RasaMrita - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:12:39 +0530
Rascaldom. You do not know anything. You have missed all the points for the last 22 years. w00t.gif mad.gif Bow down to the lotus feet of your gurudeva.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:35:55 +0530
QUOTE
Bow down to the lotus feet of your gurudeva.


Well, er, that is what i have been doing for the last 22 years, with your permission. tongue.gif
But I am always willing to learn what I have misunderstood......
Madhava - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:36:26 +0530
I was also ignored. I posed some of those questions in a letter, and I was neglected. Nobody showed up to respond. Behold my victory.
Rasaraja dasa - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:41:05 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 10:28 AM)

Rasaraj das,

If  those at radhakunda who are in a position to shed light onto the dark areas (or the total blackout, if you will) of  a challenger's  present debatable conception, than I don't see why these higher persons will not come out and do so. If for no other reason, they could do this so make a genuine display of extended compassion.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Again Srila Narayana Maharaja could have applied the same logic to the debate challenge requested by the "Ritviks". However he saw it to be useless when the oter side wasn't interested in really reflecting on, considering or respecting your points especially when you consider that one would unnecessarily be subjected to hearing offensive statements about ones Guardians. Where was his genuine display of compassion? Couldn't he have shed some light onto the dark areas (or the total blackout, if you will) of the challenger's present debatable conception?

The point is some "debates" are better left ignored especially when such debates are merely an attempt to thump ones chest.

Err nevermind... he won.

Aspring the serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa unsure.gif
Jagat - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:46:07 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 25 2004, 03:05 PM)
QUOTE

Bow down to the lotus feet of your gurudeva.


Well, er, that is what i have been doing for the last 22 years, with your permission. tongue.gif
But I am always willing to learn what I have misunderstood......

Wrong guru, obviously.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:50:23 +0530
Ah you mean the right Guru being Bill Ehrlichmann? I am not quite sure if he is now being raped in a Houston jail, smuggling cocaine or having tantrik sex with his girlfriend named Sunshine? That great qualified brahmin (shamo damas tapah shaucam et al, Gita 18.42) who smashed thousands of demons may also be smoking cigarettes on the corner of the street and working for a bailiff. That is the right Guru, but a direct descendant of Advaita Prabhu, son of Ananda Gopal Gosvami, who has been celibate for life - hmmm that smells fishy. Must be a sahajiya, Srila Prabhupad said prabhu, all Gosvamis are incarnations of Sukracarya, the demon Guru.
Anand - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:59:24 +0530
QUOTE
The point is some "debates" are better left ignored especially when such debates are merely an attempt to thump ones chest.


So I see an opportunity for you to do this very thing, here, now.
RasaMrita - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:14:58 +0530
Asking for my permission even jocundly is missing the point about missing the point. Anyhow, thank you for your contributions. I am a daily recipient of your mercy. innocent.gif
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:15:25 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 25 2004, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE

I do appreciated that too, especially when the raja mood is not present on writing.

Radhe!


Justified indignation, or standing up for the truth is not raja guna. Was Mahaprabhu in rajoguna when he wanted to behead Jagai and Madhai?

Mahaprabhu was in Vishnu mood; the killer of Madhu demon. Nitai call Him back to Navadvipa's mood and He forgave J&M.

Because one has to judge and discriminate in order to understand the subject, yes! Justifying and standing up for truth is raja guna.
Rasaraja dasa - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:28:32 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Apr 25 2004, 11:29 AM)
QUOTE
The point is some "debates" are better left ignored especially when such debates are merely an attempt to thump ones chest.


So I see an opportunity for you to do this very thing, here, now.

blink.gif
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:32:04 +0530
QUOTE
Mahaprabhu was in Vishnu mood; the killer of Madhu demon. Nitai call Him back to Navadvipa's mood and He forgave J&M.

Because one has to judge and discriminate in order to understand the subject, yes! Justifying and standing up for truth is raja guna.


So Visnu is in rajoguna? New to me. Seen SB 1.2.23 recently?
Madhava - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 03:06:13 +0530
Regrettably I haven't found the time to do much work on the prabandhas this weekend. Here's a review of the second chapter for now. I'll post more as I find the time to review the text further. cool.gif

That book gives me the creeps, seriously. crying.gif

http://www.wisewisdoms.com/prabandhapancakam/
Gaurasundara - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:11:00 +0530
In case Madhava continues to complete his review of the five essays, might I suggest that this thread not be closed until such time he completes his essays and sufficient discussion of the same has been undertaken?

At the very least, this thread will serve as a record of sorts that NM's material has been answered despite claims to the contrary.
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:29:45 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 25 2004, 08:02 PM)
QUOTE

Mahaprabhu was in Vishnu mood; the killer of Madhu demon. Nitai call Him back to Navadvipa's mood and He forgave J&M.

Because one has to judge and discriminate in order to understand the subject, yes! Justifying and standing up for truth is raja guna.


So Visnu is in rajoguna? New to me. Seen SB 1.2.23 recently?

Well, that was a good one. However, let me think about it…. Yes! He was in Raja Guna, why not? How do you think God would be if He were holding His weapon, named Sudarsan Chakra, ready to kill the enemy of His devotee? Similarly, Mahaprabhu was in a very angry mood! Sri Nitai changed His mood...

Moreover, Vishnu incarnates for different reasons and sometimes, for example, “In his seventh incarnation, he was Rama, the main character in the Ramayana, who killed the demon Ravan.

Or another example is, “The tenth incarnation of Vishnu, Kalki, is suppose to arrive when the world will be at a brink of complete chaos He will rise from the sea on a white horse and destroy all evil.”

I just do not see why He has to do all that in the mode of goodness; Raja is always ready to serve Him, at any time…

Vide; Prayers to Lord Narasimha

However, my point here is not about Sri Vishnu being in the Raja Mood or not (He is in pure goodness; however, He can use Raja as He likes). The point is, whenever one writes about any topic that is not purely directly glorifying Sri Krishna’s pastimes, the modes of nature will cover his sense, and fatally, according to how he is approaching the subject, he has to undergo the stages of Gunas. For example, Srila Vyasa Deva, although he was giving his best to save the world, he found no satisfaction and lamenting he approaches Narada Muni for further guidance...

But hey! Please, do not take me wrong! At any rate, yes! Your work will be appreciated. Just go ahead and do whatever your heart desire!
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:58:36 +0530
My dear Harisharan, I think there is a need for you to seriously study the basic teachings of Vaishnavism if you want to take part in these discussions. The basic teaching is that Krishna, Visnu, Rama Narasingha and Mahaprabhu are transcendental Personalities of Godhead. Mahaprabhu condemned the Mayavadis for considering the Personality of Godhead a product of Maya (Maya consists of three modes, sattva raja tama). The Gosvamis have laid stress on this in their treatises and the first verse that springs to mind is Brahma Samhita's isvarah parama krishna saccidananda vigraha - "Krishna is the supreme Lord and His form is transcendental. Caitanya Caritamrita says: Krishna Rupa Krishna Guna Krishna Lila Vrinda - ei sob sac cid ananda - "All about Krishna, including His lila, is saccidananda or beyond the modes of passion etc. "
Regarding Vaishnava aparadha, in this case by BV Narayan Swami, Mahaprabhu refused to forgive Gopal Capal unless he went to the offended Vaishnava Srivasa Pandit, and Mahaprabhu was not angry at Jagai Madhai for offending Him, but for offending another Vaishnava, Nityananda Prabhu. Only when Srivasa forgave Gopal Capal he was saved and only when Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava. That is the law of love and loyalty. Forgiving the offender of the Vaishnavas is a type of tacit collaboration and is a sentimental weakness rather than an act of love.
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:17:13 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas)
Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava.
blink.gif

Was not J & M the biggest offenders?

QUOTE(Advaitadas)
My dear Harisharan, I think there is a need for you to seriously study the basic teachings of Vaishnavism if you want to take part in these discussions. The basic teaching is that Krishna, Visnu, Rama Narasingha and Mahaprabhu are transcendental Personalities of Godhead.

I probably, loosely used the terminology Raja as spiritual. The point is, God, if He has to fight, there has to be some kind of stimulation and that is angry. Narasimha was angry, Mahaprabhu was angry, Rama was angry and Kalki will be... That maybe a transcendental Raja.... Yogamaya knows all about it.


I hope you have clear in mind that I’m not either in favor, nor against NM.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:31:16 +0530
QUOTE
QUOTE (Advaitadas)
Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava.
Was not J & M the biggest offenders?


Yes they were and it was Nityananda who forgave them, the assaulted devotee, not Mahaprabhu, his fellow-devotee. A devotee should forgive personal insults, but never insults to other devotees. Let me give you an example. If your wife and daughter, whom you dearly love, are immaculately innocent, and someone calls them prostitutes, will you show your love for them by saying to the slanderer : Oh well I forgive you." Is that a sign of fidelity, love and loyalty?

QUOTE
I probably, loosely used the terminology Raja as spiritual. The point is, God, if He has to fight, there has to be some kind of stimulation and that is angry. Narasimha was angry, Mahaprabhu was angry, Rama was angry and Kalki will be... That maybe a transcendental Raja.... Yogamaya knows all about it.


Transcendental raja? blink.gif Can you prove this with quotes from shastra? And even if this exists, you do admit that it is transcendental and not mundane to stand up and defend slandered Vaishnavas?
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:38:12 +0530
QUOTE
Yes they were and it was Nityananda who forgave them, the assaulted devotee, not Mahaprabhu, his fellow-devotee. A devotee should forgive personal insults, but never insults to other devotees. Let me give you an example. If your wife and daughter, whom you dearly love, are immaculately innocent, and someone calls them prostitutes, will you show your love for them by saying to the slanderer : Oh well I forgive you." Is that a sign of fidelity, love and loyalty?


No, I would not forgive.

QUOTE
Transcendental raja?   blink.gif  Can you prove this with quotes from shastra? And even if this exists, you do admit that it is transcendental and not mundane to stand up and defend slandered Vaishnavas?


OK! But you have to prove that first:

QUOTE
Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava.

blink.gif
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:41:33 +0530
QUOTE
OK! But you have to prove that first:


QUOTE 
Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava.


I have already explained that above. When the devotee himself is offended he will forgive but when a beloved fellow devotee is offended he will not forgive. You have yourself confirmed that:

QUOTE
No, I would not forgive.
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:44:32 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 26 2004, 07:11 AM)
QUOTE

OK! But you have to prove that first:


QUOTE 
Nityananda forgave Jagai Madhai they were saved. This proves there should be no forgiveness to the offender of the Vaishnava.


I have already explained that above. When the devotee himself is offended he will forgive but when a beloved fellow devotee is offended he will not forgive. You have yourself confirmed that:

QUOTE
No, I would not forgive.

Yes! But at the request of Nitai, Mahaprabhu forgave!

I can not forgive; I'm too weak for that.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:47:17 +0530
Narottam Das Thakur sings"
hari sthane aparadhe tabe harinama; toma sthane aparadhe nahi paritrana

"When Hari is offended one can become free from it by chanting the holy name.
When you (the Vaishnava) are offended there is no redemption."

Vaishnava aparadha is simply not pardonable. It is the first and foremost offence to the chanting of the holy name.
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:51:16 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 26 2004, 07:17 AM)
Narottam Das Thakur sings"
hari sthane aparadhe tabe harinama; toma sthane aparadhe nahi paritrana

"When Hari is offended one can become free from it by chanting the holy name.
When you (the Vaishnava) are offended there is no redemption."

Vaishnava aparadha is simply not pardonable. It is the first and foremost offence to the chanting of the holy name.

If applied wrong, would not that very verse be the fuel for hate among devotees?
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:11:24 +0530
Wrong application may mean resorting to violence, or constantly meditating on the evil mongers who spread lies about Vaishnavas. That is certainly not good. However, Narottama das Thakur says: krodha bhakta dvesi jane "I direct my anger at the haters of the devotees."
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:27:10 +0530
Canto 8: Withdrawal of the Cosmic Creations
Chapter 20: Bali Maharaja Surrenders the Universe

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 8.20.4

na hy asatyat paro 'dharma
iti hovaca bhur iyam
sarvam sodhum alam manye
rte'lika-param naram

SYNONYMS

na — not; hi — indeed; asatyat — than compulsion to untruthfulness; parah — more; adharmah — irreligion; iti — thus; ha uvaca — indeed had spoken; bhuh — mother earth; iyam — this; sarvam — everything; sod?hum — to bear; alam — I am able; manye — although I think; rte — except; alika-param — the most heinous liar; naram — a human being.

TRANSLATION

There is nothing more sinful than untruthfulness. Because of this, mother earth once said, "I can bear any heavy thing except a person who is a liar."

PURPORT By ACBS:

On the surface of the earth there are many great mountains and oceans that are very heavy, and mother earth has no difficulty carrying them. But she feels very much overburdened when she carries even one person who is a liar. It is said that in Kali-yuga lying is a common affair: mayaiva vyavaharike (Bhag. 12.2.3). Even in the most common dealings, people are accustomed to speaking so many lies. No one is free from the sinful reactions of speaking lies. Under the circumstances, one can just imagine how this has overburdened the earth, and indeed the entire universe.
kalki - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:25:43 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 26 2004, 07:01 AM)


Transcendental raja?   blink.gif  Can you prove this with quotes from shastra? And even if this exists, you do admit that it is transcendental and not mundane to stand up and defend slandered Vaishnavas?

I want to take a stab at this. It is often said that when a Guru exhibits what looks like fierceness and anger, that he is manifesting his Nrshingadeva potency.
In Tibetan Buddhism, Deities that appear ferocius are considered to be divine wrathful deities. I would think the same would go for Hindu deities. Like when Krishna slays a demon, his wrath is called mercy.
Madhava - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:08:51 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 26 2004, 09:55 AM)
It is often said that when  a Guru exhibits what looks like fierceness and anger, that he is manifesting his Nrshingadeva potency.

Never heard that one before... huh.gif

Where is it often said?
jijaji - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:24:08 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 26 2004, 10:38 AM)
QUOTE(kalki @ Apr 26 2004, 09:55 AM)
It is often said that when  a Guru exhibits what looks like fierceness and anger, that he is manifesting his Nrshingadeva potency.

Never heard that one before... huh.gif

Where is it often said?

Right..

Ok Ok..

It is obviously a means by which bad tempers of a Guru are swept under the rug and given some 'transcendental' meaning so as not to bewilder the mind of the brainwashed student!

laugh.gif
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:04:46 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 26 2004, 07:41 AM)
Wrong application may mean resorting to violence, or constantly meditating on the evil mongers who spread lies about Vaishnavas. That is certainly not good. However, Narottama das Thakur says: krodha bhakta dvesi jane   "I direct my anger at the haters of the devotees."

He said that…? Humm. But that is directed to no-devotees; demons. He never said a pretender or liar devotee.

I presume that anger can not be used against a devotee that commit mistakes. Is there any specific verse inducing severer punishments for a devotee that commits a sinful activity?

Another question, how can we develop compassion to anyone if there are hate for the non-believers? I always heard that Mahaprabhu came to save the world through compassion. He came to save the fallen souls, including the sinful persons. How can one cultivate bhakti with anger in the heart?

By the way, Narottama Das Thakura is a liberated person, what about that anger, is transcendental too?
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:15:56 +0530
This is the comment on this song by Narottam das Thakur by Sripad Ananta das Ji

After this the blessed author says: krodha bhakta dvesi jane — "Anger must be directed at the enemies of the devotees." The great enemy of mankind anger, who is creating great havoc, can certainly not be engaged directly in any activity in Krsna's devotional service, but if it is engaged against those who hate the devotees, it can nourish devotion. If the practising devotee tolerates the enemies of the devotees' blasphemy of the devotees and their engagement in activities of hatred towards them, and he does not become angry or intolerant of this, it is not shown that he has any love for Sri Visnu and the Vaisnavas. During the sacrifice of progenitor Daksa, Sri Sati devi saw that Sri Mahadeva was being insulted, so she became very angry and said (Bhag. 4.4.17)—

karnau pidhaya niriyad yad akalpa ise
dharmavitaryasrnibhir nrbhir asyamane
chindyat prasahya rusatim asatim prabhus cej
jihvamasunapi tato visrjet sa dharmah


"If someone hears a blasphemer insulting the master of religion and is not able to either kill the blasphemer or commit suicide, then he must at least cover his ears and angrily leave the assembly. If, however, he is able to do so, he should cut out the tongue of the blasphemer and then commit suicide. That is dharma or virtue." For the Vaisnavas, committing suicide is considered improper, for the body is suitable for performing bhajana, and therefore they should instead cover the ears and angrily leave the assembly, remembering Sri Visnu. Therefore anger, or intolerance, which usually causes wholesale destruction, should be aimed at the enemies of the devotees; thus it can nourish the Vaisnavas' bhajana."

(Here ends Ananta das Ji Purport)

This does not only apply to non-devotees. Rather, Jiva Gosvami says that a Vaishnava vidveshi, or Vaishnava-hater, can himself not be a Vaishnava, so there is no contradiction here.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:24:02 +0530
QUOTE
He came to save the fallen souls, including the sinful persons. How can one cultivate bhakti with anger in the heart?


Please HS, try to understand that there is such a thing as divine, devotional, just anger. You yourself have already admitted you would not forgive slander of your wife and daughter, then what to speak of the most beloved ones, the Vaishnavas? Why is that so hard to understand?

You said

QUOTE
I can not forgive; I'm too weak for that.


It is not weakness, it is love and justice only.
Hari Saran - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:27:29 +0530
QUOTE
Therefore anger, or intolerance, which usually causes wholesale destruction, should be aimed at the enemies of the devotees; thus it can nourish the Vaisnavas' bhajana."


I just do not get how that can be nourishing for bhajana?


And all that can be trancendental, but not the Raja-mood of Vishnu when killing demons, right...?
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:37:08 +0530
It is all transcendental.
Jagat - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:51:51 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 26 2004, 11:07 AM)
It is all transcendental.

But I would be careful of this. Maya is a great trickster. There is nothing uglier than self-righteous anger. Everyone in the Vaishnava world is going around being offended at what this one and that one said and no one can carry on a reasonable conversation with anyone else because this one offended my guru, or that one's param guru offended my paratpara guru. Give me a break. It seems extremely childish, not transcendental at all. Quite frankly, I am fed up with most of it.

Most offenses are committed out of ignorance. So let's temper our anger with knowledge. Most perception of offensiveness comes out of our own attachment to a sense of personal or sectarian superiority. This is not transcendental, but very much a result of false ego.

Any emotion connected to devotion has some purifying effect, but be careful with anger. You might just be making an ass of yourself.
Advaitadas - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:59:37 +0530
You are correct to some extent, although there is certainly an objective doctrinal truth in each Sampradaya, from which several if not most of its camps deviate to some degree or other. However, of course, in this case we are discussing someone who is simply speaking historical and factual untruths at the expense of Vaishnavas. This is not a doctrinal dispute. As for the doctrines, Madhava is doing a really nice job tackling that, because he is better informed about NM's theories than yours truly.
braja - Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:30:35 +0530
Just going back to those quotes from BR Sridhara Maharaja that I posted earlier:

QUOTE
So we all must be very careful to not be especially attracted by any defect. If some doubt about anyone comes to our attention we may refer it to the higher authority. But if we make too much of it, either in opposition or in any other way, that will be transferred back. We must know, "I am devouring. My mind is coming in touch with that fault." That is being devoured as food, and the contamination is transferred to the critic; somehow it is entering into the mental system of the critic, and it must get its satisfaction there, as a reaction.


I came across this earlier today and thought it was quite interesting:

QUOTE
Your Mistake, My Mistake-All the Same to the Brain

Why is it so annoying to watch someone else make a mistake? Maybe because it affects the same areas of the brain as when a person makes his or her own mistake, Dutch researchers said on Monday.

Experiments in which volunteers tried a computer task and then watched each other do the same thing showed the brain reacted in a similar way whether the observer made the mistake, or watched someone else make it.

..."These data suggest that similar neural mechanisms are involved in monitoring one's own actions and the actions of others," they concluded


From Reuters via Yahoo!

The limited, clinical environment, the immediacy and the training the participants were given obviously distorted the effect, making it more powerful than "real life," but it's an interesting tidbit nevertheless.
Hari Saran - Tue, 27 Apr 2004 05:35:57 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ Apr 26 2004, 06:00 PM)
Just going back to those quotes from BR Sridhara Maharaja that I posted earlier:

QUOTE
So we all must be very careful to not be especially attracted by any defect. If some doubt about anyone comes to our attention we may refer it to the higher authority. But if we make too much of it, either in opposition or in any other way, that will be transferred back. We must know, "I am devouring. My mind is coming in touch with that fault." That is being devoured as food, and the contamination is transferred to the critic; somehow it is entering into the mental system of the critic, and it must get its satisfaction there, as a reaction.



Remember, “Fish are friends not food!”

(Extracted from the movie, “Finding Nemo”)

user posted image
Gaurasundara - Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:57:34 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 25 2004, 09:36 PM)
Regrettably I haven't found the time to do much work on the prabandhas this weekend. Here's a review of the second chapter for now. I'll post more as I find the time to review the text further. cool.gif

That book gives me the creeps, seriously.  crying.gif

QUOTE
The author feels that the concept of bhAgavata-paramparA is not a novelty. Perhaps he would like to demonstrate the usage of this term in the writings of the AcAryas predating zrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI?

..

It is well known that the paramparA presented by zrIpAda SarasvatI is not an actual paramparA, or a succession of teachers one after the other, but rather a collection of remarkable individuals from the history of GauDIya VaiSNavism.

Interesting how Madhava relates that there doesn't seem to be an idea of a bhagavata-parampara before Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's time. Unsurprisingly, as far as I can see, the concept of this parampara is presented in the writings of two of his disciples:
"In the beginning it was in the Highest Branch of Lord Narayana, who after tasting its sweetness gave to the Branch of Brahma; from Brahma's mouth it was received by the branch of Narada; Sri Narada conveyed it to Sri Vyasa; from Vyasa branch the Bhagavata-fruit was received by Sri Sukadeva Gosvami; and being tasted by him, the Bhagavata-fruit was made sweeter. From Sri Sukadeva Gosvami it was received by Sri Suta Gosvami; and thus in this succession came the Bhagavatam, which is the fruit of the Vedas to this world in its original completeness without any split or pollution! Sri Visvanatha, therefore concludes that should anybody attempt to read the Bhagavatam by one's own individual venture without the gradual medium of the afore-said Preceptorial Order and Succession in order to relish the Bhakti-Rasa of the Bhagavatam, the Bhagavata-fruit will be split into pieces and thereby its Bhakti-Rasa will be lost!" - Bhakti Hridaya Bon, BRS 1.2.226
"The subject matter is so presented through the lips of Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī that any sincere listener that hears submissively can at once relish transcendental tastes which are distinct from the perverted tastes of the material world. The ripened fruit is not dropped all of a sudden from the highest planet of Kṛṣṇaloka. Rather, it has come down carefully through the chain of disciplic succession without change or disturbance. Foolish people who are not in the transcendental disciplic succession commit great blunders by trying to understand the highest transcendental rasa known as the rāsa dance without following in the footsteps of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, who presents this fruit very carefully by stages of transcendental realization ... One should conclude, therefore, that the serious student of the rasa should receive the message of Bhāgavatam in the chain of disciplic succession from Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī, who describes the Bhāgavatam from its very beginning and not whimsically to satisfy the mundaner who has very little knowledge in transcendental science. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is so carefully presented that a sincere and serious person can at once enjoy the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge simply by drinking the nectarean juice through the mouth of Śukadeva Gosvāmī or his bona fide representative."
- Bhaktivedanta Swami, SB 1.1.3
QUOTE
zrIpAda SarasvatI did not reveal the dIkSA-paramparA of Gaura Kizora DAsa BAbAjI to his followers. In fact, zrIpAda SarasvatI did not even instruct his disciples about the identity of BAbAjI MahArAja’s dIkSA-guru, what to speak of the entire paramparA.

..

Why would a disciple not reveal the dIkSA-paramparA of his guru? It is a common practice in the GauDIya VaiSNava sampradAya for a guru to reveal his guru-praNAlI, or a succession of gurus traced back to the time of zrIman MahAprabhu and His associates, at the time of dIkSA.

When there was a discussion on Bhaktivinoda Thakura some time back on another forum, I brought up this point to a rather irascible debater, asking him to submit an explanation as to why Bhaktivinoda himself explicitly praised his own diksa-guru in several places within the specific context of raganuga-bhajana. This irascible person had no answer, preferring to take a "so what?" attitude and listing examples of people who had praised Bhaktivedanta Swami and then left him to take the shelter of another guru.
While his point may have been germane on another plane of understanding, I got the impression that this person was simply not learned enough in Gaudiya siddhanta to understand the mechanics of guru and parampara. To hide ignorance of the processes involved and pontificating on other aspects seems to be the characteristics of the unlearned in this connection.

QUOTE
Where did zrIpAda SarasvatI receive the sacred thread and mantra? Certainly not from zrI Gaura Kizora DAsa BAbAjI, who was a vaizya by birth, and would customarily not have been wearing a sacred thread, what to speak of chanting the brahmagayatrI.

While vaisyas can undergo the upanayana ceremony and it is quite possible that Gaura Kisora das Babaji had done this, it is also possible that he rejected it and gave up the ancillary practice of chanting the brahma-gayatri in consonance with the tradition in Gaudiya Vaishnavism to take it off, in light of rejecting varnasrama. Either way, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Gaura Kisora das Babaji having had an upavita and gayatri mantra.

QUOTE
Having carefully studied the diagram...

It occurred to me that it might be better to include the diagram within the article, so as to understand Madhava's points better? Madhava makes references to "lines" and "complex diagrams" etc., and it is hard to understand the point without reference to the diagram itself. The Prabhanda-pancakam book has been made available for download on the Net relatively recently and it was only then I could see the complications in NM's diagram. Before I had to make do with Madhava's explanation.

And on the subject of Haridasa Thakur's diksa by Advaita Prabhu, I noticed that an earlier version of this essay originally had two scriptural references to the diksa, which I no longer have. May I ask why one was removed?

QUOTE
Among knowers of gurutattva,it is known that the individual guru (vyAsti-guru) is a manifestation of the collective guru (samAsti-guru), a special form of BhagavAn, and whatever may be lacking in the vyAsti-guru is supplied by samAsti-guru according to His promise in the Gita (ananyaz cintayanto mAm ityAdi, teSAM satata-yuktAnAm ityAdi.)

I'm a little uneasy about this reference from Gita. Is there a direct scriptural reference that describes this concept, or is it just to be found in the works of Sri Ananta das Pandit?

All in all, an excellent essay and I look forward to a commentary on the other chapters!
Madhava - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:30:35 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Apr 29 2004, 05:27 PM)
While vaisyas can undergo the upanayana ceremony and it is quite possible that Gaura Kisora das Babaji had done this, it is also possible that he rejected it and gave up the ancillary practice of chanting the brahma-gayatri in consonance with the tradition in Gaudiya Vaishnavism to take it off, in light of rejecting varnasrama. Either way, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Gaura Kisora das Babaji having had an upavita and gayatri mantra.

Well, though vaizyas may receive upanayanam, they are certainly not the folks giving it to others, as far as I've understood.


QUOTE
QUOTE
Having carefully studied the diagram...

It occurred to me that it might be better to include the diagram within the article, so as to understand Madhava's points better? Madhava makes references to "lines" and "complex diagrams" etc., and it is hard to understand the point without reference to the diagram itself. The Prabhanda-pancakam book has been made available for download on the Net relatively recently and it was only then I could see the complications in NM's diagram. Before I had to make do with Madhava's explanation.

I'll include that in a future update.


QUOTE
And on the subject of Haridasa Thakur's diksa by Advaita Prabhu, I noticed that an earlier version of this essay originally had two scriptural references to the diksa, which I no longer have. May I ask why one was removed?

It was an unnecessary sidetrack. PP didn't mention Haridas Thakur.


QUOTE
I'm a little uneasy about this reference from Gita. Is there a direct scriptural reference that describes this concept, or is it just to be found in the works of Sri Ananta das Pandit?

Bhagavan will supply you with whatever you require. That's what the Gita says. What other evidence in particular would you wish to have? Is that not clear enough?
Elpis - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:36:13 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 29 2004, 04:00 PM)
Well, though vaizyas may receive upanayanam, they are certainly not the folks giving it to others, as far as I've understood.

Quite correct. Only a brAhmaNa can give the mantra to others.
Madhava - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:38:13 +0530
But then again, Gaura Kishor Das Babaji would have been a brAhmaNa according to the Gaudiya Math conventions. tongue.gif
Advaitadas - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:06:06 +0530
Only problem is, where is the thread on his pics if this were true? laugh.gif
Madhava - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:12:21 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 29 2004, 08:36 PM)
Only problem is, where is the thread on his pics if this were true?  laugh.gif

It was Photoshopped out by sahajiya-babajis, of course.
Elpis - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:16:58 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 29 2004, 04:36 PM)
Only problem is, where is the thread on his pics if this were true?  laugh.gif

Oh, but the answer to that is found in the JAbAlopaniSat which Narayana Maharaja is so fond of. When Atri asked YAjJavalkya how someone without a sacred thread can be a brAhmaNa, the sage answered that the self is his sacred thread biggrin.gif
Advaitadas - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:19:32 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Apr 29 2004, 08:42 PM)
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 29 2004, 08:36 PM)
Only problem is, where is the thread on his pics if this were true?  laugh.gif

It was Photoshopped out by sahajiya-babajis, of course.

Hmmm. Problem was that in 1976, when I first saw a pic of GKDB in the Iskcon Gita there was no Adobe Photoshop and indeed no computers at all yet. biggrin.gif
Openmind - Fri, 30 Apr 2004 11:43:09 +0530
QUOTE
It was Photoshopped out by sahajiya-babajis, of course.


I imagined some babajis in kaupins (or maybe in saris, who knows) sitting in front of big computers, adjusting pictures in Photoshop with meticulous care.
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Hari Saran - Tue, 04 May 2004 14:32:30 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ Apr 26 2004, 05:59 AM)
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Apr 25 2004, 08:02 PM)
QUOTE

Mahaprabhu was in Vishnu mood; the killer of Madhu demon. Nitai call Him back to Navadvipa's mood and He forgave J&M.

Because one has to judge and discriminate in order to understand the subject, yes! Justifying and standing up for truth is raja guna.


So Visnu is in rajoguna? New to me. Seen SB 1.2.23 recently?

Well, that was a good one. However, let me think about it…. Yes! He was in Raja Guna, why not? How do you think God would be if He were holding His weapon, named Sudarsan Chakra, ready to kill the enemy of His devotee? Similarly, Mahaprabhu was in a very angry mood! Sri Nitai changed His mood...

Moreover, Vishnu incarnates for different reasons and sometimes, for example, “In his seventh incarnation, he was Rama, the main character in the Ramayana, who killed the demon Ravan.

Or another example is, “The tenth incarnation of Vishnu, Kalki, is suppose to arrive when the world will be at a brink of complete chaos He will rise from the sea on a white horse and destroy all evil.”

I just do not see why He has to do all that in the mode of goodness; Raja is always ready to "transcendently" serve Him, at any time…

Vide; Prayers to Lord Narasimha


While meditating on Narasimhadeva’s pastimes, I thought this Caitanya's Lila would be another interesting example of the "Rajo-Lila of the Lord…"

Adi-lila, Chapter 17

One day the Lord ordered Srivasa Thakura to read the Brhat-sahasra-nama [the thousand names of Lord Visnu], for He wanted to hear them at that time.

As he read the thousand names of the Lord, in due course the holy name of Lord Nrsimha appeared. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu heard the holy name of Lord Nrsimha, He became fully absorbed in thought.

In the mood of Lord Nrsimhadeva, Lord Caitanya ran through the city streets, club in hand, ready to kill all the atheists.

Seeing Him appearing very fierce in the ecstasy of Lord Nrsimha, people ran from the street and fled here and there, afraid of His anger.

Seeing the people so afraid, the Lord came to His external senses and thus returned to the house of Srivasa Thakura and threw away the club.

The Lord became morose and said to Srivasa Thakura, “When I adopted the mood of Lord Nrsimhadeva, people were greatly afraid. Therefore I stopped, since causing fear among people is an offense.”


...And the Lord peacefully comes back to His Navadvipa’s mood...
=====================================================

Moreover, as the verse 1.2.23 of SB says, “He indirectly associates with the three modes.”

"The transcendental Personality of Godhead is indirectly associated with the three modes of material nature, namely passion, goodness and ignorance, and just for the material world's creation, maintenance and destruction He accepts the three qualitative forms of Brahmā, Vishnu and Śiva. Of these three, all human beings can derive ultimate benefit from Vishnu, the form of the quality of goodness."

If He indirectly associates with the three modes; indirectly, but He associates anyway.
Anyhow, the difference is, He does the way He likes (Material or Spiritual); it is all His creation.
Jagat - Wed, 05 May 2004 18:38:36 +0530
Krishnakanta's IRM Newsletter:

QUOTE
7. Babajis Reap Narayana Maharaja’s Raganuga Fast-Track Harvest

Within the Narayana Maharaja (NM) camp, the claim has been made that one must accept guidance outside of Srila Prabhupada’s direct teachings in order to hasten ones spiritual advancement. Specifically, it has been claimed that NM is somehow a specially empowered Rasika Acharya who can give us unique access to spontaneous devotional service, or Raganuga Bhakti. Many initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada, along with numerous former members of ISKCON, have turned to him and his teachings on the promise that they too can imbibe this special knowledge that their original spiritual master allegedly neglected to impart. As NM alleged:

"Here, one thing is that ultimately bhakti is only uttama-bhakti. He wanted to preach all of these things in the western countries also - that which Rupa Goswami has given in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and the Ujjvala-nilamani, and that which has been written by acaryas like Raghunath das Goswami and Krishna das Kaviraja Goswami. He wanted to give all these things in western countries, BUT HE COULD NOT DO IT. HE HAD SO LITTLE TIME."

(Lecture given on the Disappearance Day of Srila Prabhupada, 10th November, 1992)

It is particularly ironic then that NM is now beginning to see his new-found followers seeking even higher, faster track access to ‘pure bhakti’ by approaching various Babajis in Vrindavan. In a recent reply to Jalakara das (an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada) he gives the following warnings:

“In regard to your concern that is shared by the devotees in Alachua, yes there is no need to go to the babajis. The fortunate living entity who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami, he has nothing to gain in Krishna consciousness by associating with the babajis. I have explained all the deviations of the babajis in Sri Prabanda Panchakam (Download PDF file). Please study this carefully with the devotees that have any doubts in this regard.”

Surely Srila Prabhupada is such a “spiritual master in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami”, and yet we are supposed to think there was nothing wrong with NM taking on Srila Prabhupada’s followers for so-called ‘rasika training.’ According to NM it is just fine for disciples of Srila Prabhupada to seek higher guidance; but quite wrong if they behave with similar lack of chastity towards NM. It has to be the oldest trick in the book, employed by various bearded Babajis throughout the ages, when they promise with a knowing smile: “I can give you more than your own Guru Maharaja could give.” This was the very same ploy NM used to get his foot in the ISKCON door; could it be that it is starting to back-fire on him? NM continues:

”There are no special mantras to obtain from any babaji. But for those devotees who have not actually taken shelter at the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master and who are not interested to practice the process of bhajan as it has been presented by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, they must become bewildered and as a result of this they will look for a shortcut to attain the desired goal of bhava bhakti.”

It is quite remarkable that NM should now be preaching that there is no “shortcut to attain the desired goal of bhava bhakti”, seeing as his entire mission was originally kick-started through insinuating as much. Also it is interesting to note how he does not include Srila Prabhupada’s name as an example of a “bona fide spiritual master” who has presented the “process of bhajan”. When NM first entered the scene he would wax lyrical about how Srila Prabhupada was his siksa (instructing) Guru, and how he has done a miracle through his establishment of a world mission; but now no mention. He continues:

“Please do be bewildered and help all by carefully studying my classes and Sri Prabanda Panchakam.”

Given the naked hypocrisy of his position, the typing error above might best be seen as a Freudian slip. He then says:

“I have said everything in this booklet. We have freely distributed thousands of copies in Vrndavan 3 years ago and there has not been any reply up to this day from anyone. Not even one babaji has dared to reply.”

The IRM has several times defeated NM on the issue of Srila Prabhupada’s continued diksa (initiator Guru) status within ISKCON, and he too has never replied to our exposés. Recently, one of his leading sannyasis (formerly known as Jnana das) clearly demonstrated that whatever gifts NM might be bestowing on his followers, they do not include the ability to argue coherently on the ritvik issue (for the IRM replies to Jnana das, please click on to:

http://www.iskconirm.com/JD1.pdf
http://www.iskconirm.com/JD2.pdf
http://www.iskconirm.com/JD3.pdf
http://www.iskconirm.com/JD4.pdf

(Or see the matrix on our website home page under ‘Jnana das’. The articles are currently in PDF format which require Adobe Acrobat software – freely downloadable from: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html)

Thus by NM’s own logic he is defeated, and so perhaps should desist from labelling those who want to remain completely faithful to Srila Prabhupada, and not be tempted by any dubious promises of rasika training, as “animal creatures”.
Openmind - Wed, 05 May 2004 18:59:53 +0530
QUOTE
Thus by NM’s own logic he is defeated, and so perhaps should desist from labelling those who want to remain completely faithful to Srila Prabhupada, and not be tempted by any dubious promises of rasika training, as “animal creatures”.


What?!
Jagat - Wed, 05 May 2004 19:40:42 +0530
QUOTE
The IRM has several times defeated NM on the issue of Srila Prabhupada’s continued diksa (initiator Guru) status within ISKCON, and he too has never replied to our exposés.


More defeating going on, left and right. So many victors!
Madhava - Thu, 06 May 2004 02:23:58 +0530
"And no-one was able to respond!"
arekaydee - Thu, 06 May 2004 02:53:47 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ May 5 2004, 10:10 AM)
More defeating going on, left and right. So many victors!

I always found IRM's list of "victories" amusing.
kalki - Sun, 23 May 2004 07:10:55 +0530
Has anyone gone to see Narayan Maharaj this week in Badger. Weren't some folk talking about bringing this discussion of his order to not visit Babajis to another level and maybe challenging him?
Anand - Mon, 24 May 2004 20:23:20 +0530
QUOTE
Has anyone gone to see Narayan Maharaj this week in Badger.  Weren't some folk talking about bringing this discussion of his order to not visit Babajis to another level and maybe challenging him?  

       


Challenging NM. Sounds like a mission for Capitain Kalki. NM is going to be at my house in about a week. Why don't you come and pop the question yourself? While you are at it, bring the catwoman with you, just in case you need that extra support...

(See Madhava, more then one line!)
kalki - Tue, 25 May 2004 10:42:41 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ May 24 2004, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE
Has anyone gone to see Narayan Maharaj this week in Badger.  Weren't some folk talking about bringing this discussion of his order to not visit Babajis to another level and maybe challenging him?  

       


Challenging NM. Sounds like a mission for Capitain Kalki. NM is going to be at my house in about a week. Why don't you come and pop the question yourself? While you are at it, bring the catwoman with you, just in case you need that extra support...

(See Madhava, more then one line!)

Where is your house? I heard he was going to hawaii next.
Babhru - Tue, 25 May 2004 11:20:30 +0530
I wonder where you heard that (I'm trying to make sure this exceeds one line). In fct, he was in Hawaii last month or earlier this month (I don't really remember the dates, since end-of-semester madness pretty much blots out most other matters). I believe he's headed for North Carolina next, if memory serves.
kalki - Tue, 25 May 2004 12:09:08 +0530
I thought I read in the pure bhakti site that he was going to Hilo on the 24th. I am probably wrong. You can check purebhakti.com for accuracy.
Babhru - Wed, 26 May 2004 00:50:02 +0530
I think that was talking about January. I can tell you this with all certainty: He's not here now. In fact, those followers of his who can afford it have left the island and gone to the mainland while he's there.
Madhava - Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:37:14 +0530
The revised review on the Boycott... lecture (Addendum 2 of the online edition of PP) is now available.

http://www.wisewisdoms.com/prabandhapancakam/
RasaMrita - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:12:43 +0530
When I read this paragraph I felt that something was missing and that is the literal translation. Could you give it to us, please? Thank you.

QUOTE
"The author cites from Viñëu-småti (4.18):

sütram tathaiva gåhëéyännityameva bahüdaka
éñatkåt käñäyasya liìgamäçritya tiñöhata

“The bahüdaka tridaëòésannyäsé should carry a bowl for alms and a kamaëòalu. He should wear a sacred thread and light-coloured saffron cloth. Furthermore he should always meditate on Bhagavän within his heart.”

To accept the validity of the translation, the reader is expected to accept the translation of “liìgamäçritya tiñöhata” as “Furthermore he should always meditate on Bhagavän within his heart.” Though we appreciate the translator’s right to express his insights, we feel it would be best if we preferred literal translations when discussing evidence pertaining to matters of controversy.
RasaMrita - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:18:51 +0530
Sorry, sometimes I feel that "this is not" without 'This is" as an incomplete position.

What is the literal translation of:

QUOTE
"The author cites from Padma Puräëa, (Svargakhaëòa Ädi, chapter 31):

ekaväsä dviväsä vä çikhé yajëopavétavän
kamaëòalukaro vidvänstridaëòo yäti tatparam

“A learned tridaëòé-sannyäsé should wear an outer cloth and uttaréya, keep a çikhä, a sacred thread and kamaëòalu. Having done so he should remain absorbed in bhagavat-bhäva (transcendental emotion).”

It is a mystery how the words “absorbed in bhagavat-bhäva (transcendental emotion)” have appeared in the translation."
Madhava - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:23:35 +0530
QUOTE(RasaMrita @ Jun 8 2004, 12:42 PM)
When I read this paragraph I felt that something was missing and that is the literal translation.  Could you give it to us, please?  Thank you.

"The author cites from Viñëu-småti (4.18):

sütram tathaiva gåhëéyännityameva bahüdaka
éñatkåt käñäyasya liìgamäçritya tiñöhata

“The bahüdaka tridaëòésannyäsé should carry a bowl for alms and a kamaëòalu. He should wear a sacred thread and light-coloured saffron cloth. Furthermore he should always meditate on Bhagavän within his heart.”

To accept the validity of the translation, the reader is expected to accept the translation of “liìgamäçritya tiñöhata” as “Furthermore he should always meditate on Bhagavän within his heart.” Though we appreciate the translator’s right to express his insights, we feel it would be best if we preferred literal translations when discussing evidence pertaining to matters of controversy.

What exactly do you want? That is Narayan Maharaja's translation, and it is rather imaginitive. Deduct the points I mention, and it is pretty much what the original text says.
Madhava - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:24:46 +0530
QUOTE(RasaMrita @ Jun 8 2004, 12:48 PM)
Sorry, sometimes I feel that "this is not" without 'This is" as an incomplete position.

What is the literal translation of:

"The author cites from Padma Puräëa, (Svargakhaëòa Ädi, chapter 31):

ekaväsä dviväsä vä çikhé yajëopavétavän
kamaëòalukaro vidvänstridaëòo yäti tatparam

“A learned tridaëòé-sannyäsé should wear an outer cloth and uttaréya, keep a çikhä, a sacred thread and kamaëòalu. Having done so he should remain absorbed in bhagavat-bhäva (transcendental emotion).”

It is a mystery how the words “absorbed in bhagavat-bhäva (transcendental emotion)” have appeared in the translation."

Deduct the point I note, and you have pretty much what it says in the original. That is obvious to anyone who goes through the Sanskrit a little bit. Supplying another translation both in this case and in the one before this would be redundant.
RasaMrita - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:56:45 +0530
What do I want? Honestly, I need the literal translation of those verses. You are letting the uneducated as myself, hang in the tree of ignorance. This is not critique of your work. At least not yet. Did I sound sharp before?
Jagat - Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:55:42 +0530
eka-vAsA dvi-vAsA vA zikhI yajNopavItavAn |
kamaNDalu-karo vidvAMs tridaNDo yAti tat-param ||

A knowledgeable man who wears either a single piece of cloth or two, who keeps his tuft of hair and sacred thread, and carries a waterpot and the triple staff, attains absorption in That.

In other words, there is nothing specific about the nature of the spiritual achievement, but it does seem to define the external features of the tridanda kind of sannyasa. The Kundali translation of this verse says "attains the Supreme Lord."

sUtram tathaiva gRhNIyAn nityam eva bahUdakaH
ISat-kRt-kASAyasya liGgam Azritya tiSThati

There is something grammatically wrong with this verse, so I doubt it has been correctly transliterated. I made the changes I suspect should be there.

The Bahudaka should take the sutra and take shelter of the linga (signs) of light-colored saffron. There is certainly nothing about the object of meditation, etc., here.
RasaMrita - Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:25:42 +0530
Thanks Jagat for your kindness and to Madhava for his endeavors.

Sincerely, Jagat translation should be added to the original document. Somewhat!
braja - Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:50:19 +0530
Perhaps Ananda can elaborate in this interesting snippet:

QUOTE
Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja did not come to my home after all. He is actually still in Huston, Texas, where he has been through medical examinations due to his heart condition. He was advised by his doctors in Huston not to travel to North Carolina so his trip here was canceled. Many devotees came nevertheless and the main speaker for several evenings was Aranya Swami, a prominent sannyasi disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Srila Narayana Maharaja lectured over the phone to all devotees on three occasions and there were also initiations conducted by telephone.

On the issue of "no need to go to the babajis", it was clarified by Aranya Swami that this instruction by Srila Narayana Maharaja was a specific response, by letter, to a specific situation involving an individual. The fact that the letter and thus this sentence was made public was not intentional from Srila Narayana Maharaja. He explained that not all need to receive the same instruction at all times. He explained that disciples are instructed according to adhikar and that neophytes will always find reasons to fight, either within the same group or with other groups. He gave the example of Muhammad, “Does Muhammad wants to kill Jesus Christ? No, he does not and he sees that Jesus is another servant of God. But the followers, the kanistha followers of either faith, will want to kill each other…”


http://www.saraswata.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4028#4028

Sorry to hear that Maharaja's health is not good.
Anand - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:02:03 +0530
I cannot speak much further than what I’ve heard. Most has been pretty much already said on the snipped you quoted. But maybe some more of what I can recollect can be added and I can also add a little of my own understanding of it. It should be very clear however that none of the statements made here are repetition of Srila Narayana Maharaja’ words. He was in fact not even present during this event at my home, except for, of course, in the minds and hearts of his followers.

The point was made that it is a fact (as per Srila Rupa Goswami’s instructions in Sri Upadesamrta) that devotees will think and act according to adhikar. The general tendency is that the majority of devotees will be neophytes, and as such, will not be able to reconcile apparent differences in conclusions and preachings of different madhyama and uttama devotees. This can never be changed as a principle, the only time this change takes place is at the individual level, when one makes progress due his own decision of reconciling apparent differences, based on faith in guru, under proper anugatya. One who is firmly situated under the guidance of Sri Guru, will have no doubts about his source of inspiration and answers. Neophytes however, might take too large steps for which they are unprepared, sometimes taking the position of interpreting and presenting siddhanta. Such steps are only cause of confusion and ultimate disturbance. Higher devotees are able to sit together and discuss their differences for the enrichment of each other. Or if they choose not to sit together and discuss, still their faith is not disturbed. They respect each other’s stand even in differences. Such is the desirable goal for those in the kanistha stage.

I have personally witnessed instances where neophytes, taken by new enthusiasm, have made independent decisions of representing higher personalitites and ideals, only to create more disturbance than provide help. No need to elaborate on these ‘instances’, I am sure most of us can come up with one or two, if not several, examples of that…

So, still within the spirit of Srila Rupa Goswamipada’s instructions, sectarianism is in the vision of kanisthas. We should try to eliminate the vertical lines, adopting instead horizontal ones. That means, of each group of Gaudiyas, for example, or each group of any kind of tendency for that matter, those who are at the highest levels, they ultimately know all differences are reconciled within the experience of Love.
Rasaraja dasa - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:27:30 +0530
Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Hopefully Maharaja's health will improve by the grace of Srimati Radharani.

As far as the context of the "No Need to Visit the Babaji's" letter... the fact still remains that he has made very strong statements that are false in regards to Srila Ananta dasa Babaji. The context that this was a private letter, meant for a specific individual, doesn't mean that being truthful or straight forward in regards to this particular issue isn't all that important. Maharaja didn't mention the name of the Babaji he was speaking against but it is fairly obvious based on the context and books he mentions. It is clear he is aiming his points at an individual which he obviously has very little knowledge of, or for some reason, feels he can speak strongly against even if that means not be truthful.

Personally I would give him, and any Vaisnava, the benefit of the doubt and say that such incorrect statements were due to ignorance as opposed to being dishonest. If this is the case Maharaja should simply clarify his points and make apologies when applicable.

In one sense seeing this exchange as a private letter at least gives him the benefit as not being someone bent on making irresponsible public statements which would surely disturb many aspiring sadhikas minds. Still if it is a letter to one individual, or 10 million, he shouldn't make statements about individuals, by name or clear reference, without being obligated to explain himself when it is shown that his statements were either incorrect or an outright abuse of trust.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Anand - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:06:14 +0530
Dear Rasaraja dasa,

With all due respect, your response to what I posted is precisely the kind of action that brings many into impasse. In the event of Srila Narayana Maharaja being incorrect in his actions, it is clearly not for you to make the corrections, specially not in public. You claim many things in this issue are clear, obvious to you, but have you considered that these things might turn out not being necessarily so according to facts? The suggestion I would strongly make is that if you do indeed have an issue with the way Srila Narayana Maharaja conduct himself in his relationship with his followers, please try to clarify this with him, personally or by letter. He is not avoiding to answer your questions at any time, I can assure you. The individual you allegedly say is the target of Srila Narayana Maharaja's recommendation not to associate with, unlike you, has not come publicly to denounce any injustice, untruthfulness, or ill formed intention. Why should you?
Madhava - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:45:39 +0530
A vaishnava will not, out of his natural humility, come forth and declare that he has been offended. However, his associates and followers will quite likely react. This has been the case since the days of Srila Rupa and Srila Jiva Gosvamis.

As a matter of fact, I believe I have never seen Sripad Narayan Maharaja come forth in public with responses he would have written himself; it is invariably one of his senior followers, such as BV Aranya, Jnana Dasji or Syamarani who write the documents.

Even now, I believe it is Aranya Maharaja who is preparing a response to the reviews I wrote, not his guru.
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:58:59 +0530
QUOTE
Dear Rasaraja dasa,

With all due respect, your response to what I posted is precisely the kind of action that brings many into impasse. In the event of Srila Narayana Maharaja being incorrect in his actions, it is clearly not for you to make the corrections, specially not in public. You claim many things in this issue are clear, obvious to you, but have you considered that these things might turn out not being necessarily so according to facts? The suggestion I would strongly make is that if you do indeed have an issue with the way Srila Narayana Maharaja conduct himself in his relationship with his followers, please try to clarify this with him, personally or by letter. He is not avoiding to answer your questions at any time, I can assure you. The individual you allegedly say is the target of Srila Narayana Maharaja's recommendation not to associate with, unlike you, has not come publicly to denounce any injustice, untruthfulness, or ill formed intention. Why should you?


blink.gif

Dear Anand,

i WAS a disciple of SNM and i think it is not the real thing to preach "different truths to different people".

yep, i contacted SNM in regards to these issues and two times he told me in slightly different words than in this letter, that it is not necessary to "visit the babajis".
he told me all HE can give is pure bhakti...

when i was in his camp, i learnt that actually he is not writing so much personally, especially essays or articles, mainly his senior disciples do that. sometimes one in the name of the other ( i eye-witnessed this once).

i too like Madhava wait for a response to the different "anti-babaji"- essays.
especially i think SNM should come out and apologize to Srila Ananta das Babaji.

a good friend of mine visited SNM this spring.
he told him that he likes Srila Ananta das Babaji and his books very much.
SNM told him that he likes the person and the books too.
no go figure....

blink.gif

Tarunji
Rasaraja dasa - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:19:11 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 13 2004, 09:36 AM)
Dear Rasaraja dasa,

With all due respect, your response to what I posted is precisely the kind of action that brings many into impasse. In the event of Srila Narayana Maharaja being incorrect  in his actions, it is clearly not for you to make the corrections, specially not in public. You claim many things in this issue are clear, obvious to you, but have you considered that these things might turn out not being necessarily so according to facts? The suggestion I would strongly make is that if you do indeed have an issue with the way Srila Narayana Maharaja conduct himself in his relationship with his followers, please try to clarify this  with him, personally or by letter. He is not avoiding to answer your questions at any time, I can assure you. The individual you allegedly say is the target of Srila Narayana Maharaja's recommendation not to associate with, unlike you, has not come publicly to denounce any injustice, untruthfulness, or ill formed intention. Why should you?

Dear Anand,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I think it is obvious, clear, and without question, that Srila Narayana Maharaja was referring to Anata dasa Babaji in his letter since he is the only individual to have published to works he has sited.

Since it is clear it was Baba he was referring to as well as clear that many of the points he made about Baba’s preaching are incorrect than why am I not in a position to point out where he is incorrect in this regard? What qualification does one need? Simply look at what Maharaja stated as content of Baba’s preaching and look at these books to substantiate whether what Maharaja is saying is accurate or not. If it isn’t accurate and it is clear that he is mistaken that such points are made in these books or by this individual than it doesn’t take a PHd or Swami title to point it out. You stated " it is clearly not for you to make the corrections, specially not in public.". Well why not me? Why is it clearly for you to make corrections, specifically in public, to me? Again if I am wrong on anythingI stated please kindly correct me. Again I am not making a statement of Maharaja's intent or character rather I am simply addressing statements he made which can be verified as being incorrect. I would not dare even contemplate his intent or character as I have no way of doing so and am clearly not qualified to do such. So I am sticking with addressing his sepcific points about specific people that can be specifically shown as incorrect.

In the past I have spoken out on criticism of Maharaja on the GD forums and you didn't seem to find any problem with me making the same statements in regards to Maharaja. Maybe you just didn't see that particular post but it is there and I stated that it was unfair to make statements about Maharaja, by name or clear reference, without being obligated to explain oneself when it is shown that his/her statements were either incorrect or an outright abuse of trust.

Why hasn't Ananta dasa Baba responded? Well for one who knows if he has ever even seen the document as I doubt he is viewing VNN and PurBhakti.com. However regardless a Vaisnava will not be offended nor defend him/her self in such situations whereas disciples/followers will voice disapproval. In the case of your Guru Maharaja I have never seen him come forth and defend himself when accused of something. Rather you will see his followers do so. I have never viewed his decision to not respond directly as anything other than his humility.

If this letter was truly meant for one person than why was it posted on so many boards and sitributed by his followers? Just seems strange that when he or his followers are questioned on the accuracy of his statements it comes out that it should have never been made public and that people are reading into what he was/is saying and aren't in a position to object.

Again I am giving Maharaja the benefit of the doubt and saying that he was simply mistaken and that there was no ill intent on his part. Still if one makes an absolute statement about someone and they are incorrect than it should be recounted. I don;t have any axe to grind with Maharaja. He was always very sweet, affectionate and personable when I met with him and I tend to think that through all of these various issues his heart is in the right place.

Now Anand you may very well know of this other Babaji author that Maharaja was referring to. Maybe you could enlightn us if you do know who this is. Maharaja made strong and absolute statements on the character and spiritual qualification of an individual which was made public by his followers. For this he should view as something he needs to address as they are his senior followers that are involved in these issues. I know over a dozen people who have personally written to Maharaja about this issue and similar ones and who didn't receive responses from Maharaja himself. Their points and/or concerns where simply ignored in most cases or replied to as being irrelevant. So if the problem is how his disciples represent him than maybe you can speak to them about how it reflects on your dear Guru Maharaja and suggest that they address these issues.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:20:54 +0530
QUOTE
I believe it is Aranya Maharaja who is preparing a response to the reviews I wrote, not his guru. 


Madhava,

Your guru has not written reviews, you have. So someone who has interest in responding to your reviews, is preparing a response. Perhaps if Ananta Das Baba himself were interested in directly address any issues concerning Srila Narayana Maharaja, then Srila Narayana Maharaja would be obliged to present an answer.

Followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja too feel offended by the free-for-all tone addopted by many when referring to Srila Narayana Maharaja's actions.

Just as an example, my own daughter, a year ago at 14, was shocked when read on this forum you, Madhava, referring to her spiritual master as a 'senile old man'. A vaisnava will not like to hear disagreeable words towards anyone, specially his dear Gurudeva. But a vaisnava will not speak disagreeable words of the offenders either.
Madhava - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:29:24 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 13 2004, 06:50 PM)
Your guru has not written reviews, you have. So someone who has interest in responding to your reviews, is preparing a response. Perhaps if Ananta Das Baba himself were interested in directly address any issues concerning Srila Narayana Maharaja, then Srila Narayana Maharaja would be obliged to present an answer.

So, that's an interesting scenario there.

NM writes about ADP =>
ADP's follower Madhava responds to NM =>
NM's follower Aranya Mj responds to M=>
Madhava's follower X responds to AM=>
Aranya Mj's follower X responds to Madhava's follower =>
Madhava's follower's follower responds to AM's follower
ityAdi ad infinitum.

The delegation parampara.

The person who makes a public statement must defend his statements himself. If my baba were to comment in public on Narayan Maharaja and someone would respond, certainly my baba would then respond again, just as when I make a public statement, I will come forth and stand behind my words instead of delegating the responsibility to others.


QUOTE
Just as an example, my own daughter, a year ago at 14, was shocked when read on this forum you, Madhava, referring to her spiritual master as a 'senile old man'.  A vaisnava will not like to hear disagreeable words towards anyone, specially his dear Gurudeva. But a vaisnava will not speak disagreeable words of the offenders either.

I explained this already back then when someone attempted to make an issue out of this, that I posed this as an option in an attempt to explain the reason for the statements that do not seem to correspond with facts. I would like to believe that Narayan Maharaja does not intentionally mispresent the facts, and I also suspect that he is not ignorant of them, having been exposed to them in the past; the logical conclusion is that he must be persistently forgetting things. Perhaps I am mistaken, and you have a better explanation to offer.
RasaMrita - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 01:01:12 +0530
Anand! Did Aranya Maharaja mention what caused the event with that particular individual, that motived him (sripad Narayana Maharaja) to write to his congregation in Alachua in the way he did? If not, then you are the one who really doesn't know anything about that particular event. If yes, what was the cause?

His (Sripad Narayana Maharaja) reaction in that particular letter as Rasaraja mentioned is northing new. In one of his booklet's titled Gaudiya Vaisnavism versus sahajiyaism, it has on the front a picture of Sri Bhaktivinode Thakura, to put emphasis to his own misguided assumptions. He wrote:

"There are so many sahajiya babajis -men and women- in Radha Kunda, Vrindavana, Kamayavana and many other places in Vraja. They are devotees in name only. Coming to Govardhana and Mathura to beg money in all the shops and other places, and then spending the entire night counting how much money they collected, how then will they have time to chant and remember Krishna and practice bhakti? They say their guru gave them sidha deha, but they do not even know how to clean themselves after passing stool."

"The sahajiya babajis say, "Oh, you are Lalita. I am Lalita." but this is Mayavada philosophy, or monism."

I can get more quotes where he misrepresented the "babajis", name which he uses under a collective nomenclature.

In reference to your comments on Saraswat.net,

QUOTE
"On the issue of "no need to go to the babajis", it was clarified by Aranya Swami that this instruction by Srila Narayana Maharaja was a specific response, by letter, to a specific situation involving an individual. The fact that the letter and thus this sentence was made public was not intentional from Srila Narayana Maharaja."

As I said before, the letter was not sent to that particular individual (as I am currently reading the contents of it) but to a organizer or someone who is in charge of the sangha in Alachua. That organizer for damage control purposes sent it to everyone in the Alachua Sangha and published by Kriparam on the Saraswata website. Therefore, what is this? Not intentional. His actions speak louder than Aranya Maharaja words.

The second comment by you makes me laugh (with all respect)

QUOTE
"He explained that not all need to receive the same instruction at all times. He explained that disciples are instructed according to adhikar and that neophytes will always find reasons to fight, either within the same group or with other groups. He gave the example of Muhammad, “Does Muhammad wants to kill Jesus Christ? No, he does not and he sees that Jesus is another servant of God. But the followers, the kanistha followers of either faith, will want to kill each other…”

This is the negative approach to spiritual life in the preaching of Sri Narayana Maharaj's camp. It reminds me of a story. One time they told Puri Maharaja, that Sridhar Maharaja said that he was a Kanishta Adhikari. He was so happy, just to have an adhikar. Anyhow, it seems to me that Aranya Maharaja kept his back door open with "not all need to receive the same instruction at all times. He explained that disciples are instructed according to adhikar". In the back of his mind he is already planning something else, I speculate. We will see.

Honestly, Sripad Narayana Maharaja is a master politician. For Krishna? Yes for some; Perhaps for others. But a master politician nonetheless. I am amazed by it. I am choosing not to disclose the reason of this statement.
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:21:47 +0530
QUOTE
The person who makes a public statement must defend his statements himself.


Says who? People can have representatives to make public statements for them. When Srila Narayana Maharaja lectures for his followers or whoever comes to hear, the speech is meant for that audience. If you are not present or have no interest in that preaching, why should you concern yourself with what was said at all?

Srila Narayana Maharaja's words are being scrutinized and judged upon by people who have no interest whatsoever to give him any redit. This is no balanced way of finding out the truth.

I have been told by followers of Sri Ananta Das Baba that he, ADB, ignored my approaching him by letter because "he could see who I really was". If this is an actual fact, then why should this action of Ananta Das Baba not be questioned in the same manner that the alleged neglect of Srila Narayana Maharaja of those who approach him to question his personal actions, be also questioned?

As I have said earlier, neophytes are everywhere, and if you think that among the followers of ADB or any other group you sympathyze with, such neophytes are absent, I am sorry to say but you've got something else coming. Thats reality for all of us.
Madhava - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:38:55 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 13 2004, 10:51 PM)
QUOTE
The person who makes a public statement must defend his statements himself.


Says who? People can have representatives to make public statements for them. When Srila Narayana Maharaja lectures for his followers or whoever comes to hear, the speech is meant for that audience. If you are not present or have no interest in that preaching, why should you concern yourself with what was said at all?

Well, they did print a few thousand copies of Prabandha Panchakam and distribute it all over Vrindavan if memory serves. That, I believe, doesn't qualify for a closed audience. You'll have to admit that some of the statements/publications he has made in this regard are a matter of public propaganda.

Granted, one may appoint another to speak on his behalf; however, we would expect that what is then presented is verified as truly representing the one represented. This would eliminate the "well that's not what he really thinks actually" factor that can be pulled off ad absurdum.


QUOTE
Srila Narayana Maharaja's words are being scrutinized and judged upon by people who have no interest whatsoever to give him any redit. This is no balanced way of finding out the truth.

To the contrary, we certainly do give him credit. If we would not give him credit at all, we would not concern ourselves with his words. Rather, we are concerned that a man of such credit would make statements such as he has made.


QUOTE
I have been told by followers of Sri Ananta Das Baba that he, ADB, ignored my approaching him by letter because "he could see who I really was". If this is an actual fact, then why should this action of Ananta Das Baba not be questioned in the same manner that the alleged neglect of Srila Narayana Maharaja of those who approach him to question his personal actions, be also questioned?

The person who told you this has never met ADB, so take her statement for whatever it's worth. She certainly does not know Baba and is in no way in a position to comment on his actions in this regard.

Feel free to question those who come and question Narayan Maharaja's personal actions. I am personally not of the type who judges the author and not the content, as one reputed sadhu is told to have said. The personal actions of Narayan Maharaja do not concern me, but what he speaks as a matter of public record does, if it affects the public's conception of the cause I am trying to further.


QUOTE
As I have said earlier, neophytes are everywhere, and if you think that among the followers of ADB or any other group you sympathyze with, such neophytes are absent, I am sorry to say but you've got something else coming. Thats reality for all of us.

You need not lecture on this, I am painfully aware of the fact. That aside, I wonder how that is related. I dn not believe that I would have suggested such a thing at any time in this discussion.
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:34:00 +0530
Madhava,

This, your forum, is a vehicle for propaganda. Those who don't know the subject matter to be propagated here and yet take the banner of representing what they believe is this subject matter, are in the same boat as those who distribute inflamatory panphlets in the name of 'Narayana Maharaja'. Thats how things are related.

Just as what NM may say publicly might affect what you are trying to accomplish, what you say publicly might affect what he is trying to accomplish.

Unlike you, very few are actually qualified to judge the subject matter over the author. Yet the author is judged ad exhaustion. This only generates continuous misunderstandings and loss of valuable time.

QUOTE
To the contrary, we certainly do give him credit. If we would not give him credit at all, we would not concern ourselves with his words. Rather, we are concerned that a man of such credit would make statements such as he has made.


I don't know whom are you speaking for, but if there is this alleged concern about his credibility, than you have an opportunity to approach and make your inquires directly. Otherwise, if it becomes less of a concern, a spokesperson should do.
Rasaraja dasa - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:04:04 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 13 2004, 06:04 PM)
Madhava,

This, your forum, is a vehicle for propaganda. Those who don't know the subject matter to be propagated here and yet take the banner of representing what they believe is this subject matter, are in the same boat as those who distribute inflamatory panphlets in the name of 'Narayana Maharaja'. Thats how things are related.

Just as what NM may say publicly might affect what you are trying to accomplish, what you say publicly might affect what he is trying to accomplish.

Unlike you, very few are actually qualified to judge the subject matter over the author. Yet the author is judged ad exhaustion. This only generates continuous misunderstandings and loss of valuable time.  

QUOTE
To the contrary, we certainly do give him credit. If we would not give him credit at all, we would not concern ourselves with his words. Rather, we are concerned that a man of such credit would make statements such as he has made.


I don't know whom are you speaking for, but if there is this alleged concern about his credibility, than you have an opportunity to approach and make your inquires directly. Otherwise, if it becomes less of a concern, a spokesperson should do.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Why compare apples to oranges to mangos?

This entire thread is based on a specific letter written by Maharaja where he makes very specific comments on a specific author, this authors philosophical presentation and this authors spiritual qualifications.

Who is judging Maharaja outside of this specific article and the misconceptions he has presented? You don’t need to know Maharaja personally to comment on what he presents. You simply need to have read Maharaja's letter, read the “anonyms” Babaji's books and you are then qualified to comment on the letter. In such a circumstance one doesn’t even need to be an advanced Vaisnava; one simply needs to be able to read and compare.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:35:58 +0530
Who is the 'specific author'? The letter does not specify that.
Rasaraja dasa - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:59:38 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 13 2004, 07:05 PM)
Who is the 'specific author'?  The letter does not specify that.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Being that Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja is the only devotee to translate those specific titles it is rather obvious.

If I wrote about a Maharaja who wrote a letter called "No Need To Visit the Babaji's", books such as To Be Controlled By Love and Guru-Devatatma and went on to make the same accusations found in the "No Need To Visit The Babaji's" letter would you really ignore logic and believe I wasn't talking of Narayana Maharaja just because I didn't say his name?

I understand that you want to defend the honor and name of your Guru. However in this case he has clearly made an error in judgement as his accusations towards Baba are baseless and faulty. That doesn't make him a bad person or mean that he is not an advanced Sadhika as long as he corrects such a mistake.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Madhava - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:59:31 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 02:04 AM)
This, your forum, is a vehicle for propaganda. Those who don't know the subject matter to be propagated here and yet take the banner of representing what they believe is this subject matter, are in the same boat as those who distribute inflamatory panphlets in the name of 'Narayana Maharaja'. Thats how things are related.

Just as what NM may say publicly might affect what you are trying to accomplish, what you say publicly might affect what he is trying to accomplish.

Yes, certainly we all engage in acts of propaganda on our respective fronts. However, there is a difference between indirectly affecting others through the propagation of positive general understandings, and directly affecting others through the propagation of negative specific understandings, such as cautionary comments on other authors, particularly when they are based on incorrect information.


QUOTE
Unlike you, very few are actually qualified to judge the subject matter over the author. Yet the author is judged ad exhaustion. This only generates continuous misunderstandings and loss of valuable time.

I agree that it is not acceptable that people repeatedly judge him as a liar, it does little to further the clarification of the issues at hand.

It would be desirable if Narayan Maharaja himself were to make a single, clear public statement on ADP explaining his position. Then people would not mind if the specific of these documents were left to his followers to chew on.
Madhava - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:01:49 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 03:05 AM)
Who is the 'specific author'?  The letter does not specify that.

Maybe it should?
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:29:41 +0530
I am very much interested to read that response from senior disciples of Sripad Narayan Maharaja.

Anand,

For you info, Sripad Narayan Maharaja was attending some of the classes of Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja, he was reading his books, and whenever Narayan maharaja left once B.P.Keshava Maharaja, he took shelter of a Babaji in Govardhana.

I am asking you why is he then so much against Babajis? It is not even policy of Gaudiya Math, which he is member, to preach Rasa Tattva so openly, and declare that Bhaktivedanta Swami didn't have time to deliver this topic to his disciples, so he is here to do it.

If he folows in the footsteps of Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, why he doesn't follow then: Pujala ragapata gourava bhange.. verse? That verse is first commandment for Gaudiya Matha followers. This verse was repeated by BSST and SSM practically like mantra.
Why all that one and only Rasik Acharya stuff, and then you are writing here about being humble and having an adhikara?
Go back, and read what you wrote about misinterpreting sastra and sadhus if the person is not qualified. Also, i have seen so called sadhus which were sooo advanced, how they reconcile all their differences with ˝love and affection˝ outwardly, and then give big screaming and yelling in private.
Just think about this.

Sorry to hear about Sripad Narayana Maharaja health.
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:13:37 +0530
QUOTE
If he folows in the footsteps of Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, why he doesn't follow then: Pujala ragapata gourava bhange.. verse?


Funny thing is, this phrase is not ANTI raganuga, it is PRO raganuga, because it means 'They broke (bhanga) the path of awe and reverence (gaurava) and they worshipped (pujalo) the path of raganuga bhakti (raga path). laugh.gif
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:50:55 +0530
I am not prepared to address this fully, but just to mention the basic idea in this regard, Gaudiya Math does not advocate rejection of the raganuga path. Only the approach to it might be given a different interpretation from that of other sections of Gaudiyas.
jijaji - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:09:52 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 03:20 PM)
I am not prepared to address this fully, but just to mention the basic idea in this regard, Gaudiya Math does not advocate rejection of the raganuga path. Only the approach to it might be given a different interpretation from that of other sections of Gaudiyas.

yes a very different 'Approach'....

rolleyes.gif
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:16:59 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 03:20 PM)
Gaudiya Math does not advocate rejection of the raganuga path. Only the approach to it might be given a different interpretation from that of other sections of Gaudiyas.

Dear Anand,

Thank you for being honest.
But still, there is a question. What are they advocating then? That you start with Raga Bhakti process whenever you take sannyasa with help of sannyasa mantras( in Iskcon they have one only, B.P. Puri Maharaja gave two more), or possibly some of next lives, whenever person may became Buddhist?

No disrespect, just being straightforward.

When i talk or write to Iskcon leaders or advanced Gaudiya Matha followers, or simply asking previously on their lectures, just questions about that question, i got answer like yours: that still i am not qualified to hear, know etc.

Like Advaita Das mentioned in above post, some have to get to know to know what they are talking about.
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:18:58 +0530
If that 'different approach' is one of caution, then certainly pujalo raga patha is the last phrase to quote to back that up. "They worshipped the raga path....."
Jagat, what was the first half of this verse again?
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:20:10 +0530
[quote=Advaitadas,Jun 14 2004, 02:43 PM] [QUOTE]

Funny thing is, this phrase is not ANTI raganuga, it is PRO raganuga, because it means 'They broke (bhanga) the path of awe and reverence (gaurava) and they worshipped (pujalo) the path of raganuga bhakti (raga path). laugh.gif [/quote]
Thank You Advaita Das.
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:24:49 +0530
Don't let 'caution' catch you by surprise Advaitadasji... You might find that the path is in fact paved with caution, for Worship is not devoid of calculation. The right kind of calculation, but still...
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:35 +0530
An enigmatic statement, Anand. Perhaps you would like to explain this further?
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:47 +0530
QUOTE
When i talk or write to Iskcon leaders or advanced Gaudiya Matha followers, or simply asking previously on their lectures, just questions about that question, i got answer like yours: that still i am not qualified to hear, know etc.


Your best answer of course should come from your guru. He should know when you are qualified to begin on the raganuga path.
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:38:07 +0530
No Advaitadas, I would not like to explain this any further, thank you. I am sure you have understood what it means.

But this:

QUOTE
yes a very different 'Approach'....

   


This needs additional explanation. Could somebody kindly explain the meaning of this?
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:42:04 +0530
The way they always interpreted it, was that they worship Raga path, but that they have it on the top of their head. They want to say that they worship Raga path inside and with awe and reverence outside.What they explained to me was: Worship it inside and don't comment about it to others, except very advanced.

That is why i wrote about Narayana Maharaja most of the time talking about Rasa topics, because in Iskcon and Gaudiya Matha, Raganuga Bhakti is considered taboo topic.

Probably one is allowed to take Raganuga path in those institutions after being proclaimed by Guru in their lineage elite preacher or being sannyasi.Others can visit festivals with their families, until it will be too late for them to think, that ones goal is not to be institutionalized, it is to became fully absorbed in Sri Sri Radha Krishna Bhajana.
By this bhajana, i don't mean only singing kirtans and chanting bhajans Anand.
RasaMrita - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:42:23 +0530
APR
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:47:23 +0530
QUOTE
Your best answer of course should come from your guru. He should know when you are qualified to begin on the raganuga path.


If only it were so simple, Anand. First of all, if the Guru has been misinformed about raganuga adhikara himself, as is unfortunately the case with the heterodox Vaishnava sects preaching outside of India, how will the sisya know it if the Guru himself doesnt know it? Let us see what the acaryas have to say. Visvanath Cakravartipad in Raga Vartma Candrika (1.6) -

sa ca bhagavat kRpA hetuko'nurAgI bhakta kRpA hetukaz ceti dvividhaH. tatra bhakta kRpA hetuko dvividhaH prAktana Adhunikaz ca. prAktanaH - paurva bhavika tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH, AdhunikaH etaj janmAvadhi tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH. Adye sati lobhAnantaraM tAdRza guru caraNAzrayaNam. dvitIye guru caraNAzrayAnantaraM lobha pravRttir bhavati. yad uktam:
kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA
puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate


"There are two causes for the appearance of the aforementioned sacred greed: The mercy of God or the mercy of another anurAgI devotee. There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee: prAktana and Adhunika. prAktana means mercy bestowed by a rAgAnugA bhakta in a previous life, and Adhunika is mercy bestowed in the present birth. The prAktana-devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rAgAnugA guru after the sacred greed has arisen in him, the Adhunika will get that sacred greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru. It is said (in Bhakti RasAmRta Sindhu): "The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed is the mercy of KRSNa or His devotee. Therefore some call the path of rAgAnugA bhakti also puSTi mArga (the path of grace)."
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:48:40 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 04:08 PM)
No Advaitadas, I would not like to explain this any further, thank you. I am sure you have understood what it means.

But this:

QUOTE
yes a very different 'Approach'....

   


This needs additional explanation. Could somebody kindly explain the meaning of this?

Anand, with my hand on my heart I declare that I really don't know what you mean. So please explain.....
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:51:26 +0530
QUOTE
The way they always interpreted it, was that they worship Raga path, but that they have it on the top of their head.


The Bengali is very simple though. pujalo raga path - they worshipped raga path
gaurava bhange - by breaking awe and reverence.
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:53:37 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 04:03 PM)
Your best answer of course should come from your guru. He should know when you are qualified to begin on the raganuga path.

Dear Anand,
All the answers and many more with those answers, did come already from My Guru, for all of my questions i had over the years.
I am writing about my questions to certain Iskcon and Gaudiya Math people, which i have posed to them a few years ago.
With all due respect to them and their teachings, i don't need any answers from them in any way for my spiritual or material way of life.
Anand - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:58:09 +0530
It is simple for the simple Advaitadas. If the guru is misinformed, then the one who has received The Grace, will certainly find a guru who is properly informed. Simple logic. You don't need to repeat yourself, you certainly don't need to repeat me.
Advaitadas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:03:38 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Jun 14 2004, 03:54 PM)
Don't let 'caution' catch you by surprise Advaitadasji... You might find that the path is in fact paved with caution, for Worship is not devoid of calculation. The right kind of calculation, but still...

I fully agree with that Anand. Now what about this enigmatic statement of yours?
Jagat - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:04:56 +0530
QUOTE(RasaMrita @ Jun 14 2004, 12:12 PM)
I heard that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Samiti kick out sripad Narayana Maharaja of the organization.  You wonder, Why?  Follow the money. Better said, not sharing the hundreds of thousands of dollars made during parikrama plus his disregard and critical commentaries of Sripa Vamana Maharaja, the present acarya of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Samiti.

Could you please verify this claim? Do not use this forum to spread rumors. The correct way to present this information is in the form of a question. As far as I know, Narayan Maharaj is still a member in good standing of the GVS, and is even considered "co-acharya."
RasaMrita - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:18:50 +0530
Listen! Jagat

if you do not like it. Delete it!
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:48:42 +0530
QUOTE(RasaMrita @ Jun 14 2004, 04:48 PM)
Listen! Jagat

if you do not like it.  Delete it!

Rasamrita,

No need to be so hard. Jagat was just trying to write to you about policy on this Forum. I had my mistakes too previously.There is no need for Jagat to listen to you.He can read it.
Everythings fine. Be a little more happier about life and people. biggrin.gif
Kalkidas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:50:39 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Jun 14 2004, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE(RasaMrita @ Jun 14 2004, 12:12 PM)
I heard that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Samiti kick out sripad Narayana Maharaja of the organization.  You wonder, Why?  Follow the money. Better said, not sharing the hundreds of thousands of dollars made during parikrama plus his disregard and critical commentaries of Sripa Vamana Maharaja, the present acarya of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Samiti.

Could you please verify this claim? Do not use this forum to spread rumors. The correct way to present this information is in the form of a question. As far as I know, Narayan Maharaj is still a member in good standing of the GVS, and is even considered "co-acharya."

*****

"Guru Maharaj, here some rumors are going on that you have left "Sri
Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti", and that you have made a separate organization.
Is it true? We have no particular information in this regard, therefore
we don't know what to answer other devotees".

ANSWER:
"Please be strong and sincere in all your spiritual practices, this is
what Srila Gurudeva is for warding to you in special and to all other
devotees as well". ...

"I HAVE NOТ LEFT SRI GAUDIYA VEDANTA SAMITI BUT I DO NOT WISH TO BE ENGAGED IN MANAGEMENT SERVICES. I WANT TO BE A GENERAL MEMBER LIKE PUJYAPAD BHAKTIVEDANTA TRIVIKRAM MAHARAJ. PLEASE INFORM ALL THE DEVOTEES NOT TO BE WORRIED FOR THIS. I HAVE INAUGURATED A NEW SOCIETY IN ORDER TO ORGANIZE ALL THE WESTERN DEVOTEES. THE NEW SOCIETY IS CALLED 'BHAKTI'.

Tridandi-bhiksu Bhaktivedanta Narayana
January 30, 2004

*****

Bhaktivedanta Trust International (BHAKTI): Serving the Vaisnava Community

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja has instructed me to announce the formation of Bhaktivedanta Trust International (BHAKTI), a trust dedicated to the preaching mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu following in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami and those Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas in his line (parampara).

Formed in late August of 2003, the Trust is the culmination of our Gurudeva's long-held desire to establish a foundation that will present the teachings of our acaryas, facilitate the global preaching efforts of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and foster the practice of bhakti-yoga to one and all.

We offer millions of obeisances to our guru-varga and petition them to bless this humble undertaking. In particular, we fervently invoke the blessings and protection of nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja. We also pray to nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja to bless our preaching efforts, and to nitya-lila pravista om visnupada jagad-guru Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami to inspire, guide and protect us. We pray to Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Yugala-kisora Sri Sri Radha Vinoda-bihariji that by these efforts we may please our revered acaryas in the line of Sri Rupa and Ragunatha dasa Gosvamis.

Srila Gurudeva wants the Trust to serve all the devotees, and to be guided by the essential principle of love and affection. Srila Gurudeva's desire is that the devotees feel free to participate in the aims and objectives of the Trust, and – of their own accord – to receive encouragement, advice and support from the Trust to help them succeed in their respective preaching efforts.

Srila Gurudeva expressly wants that the Trust will not create self-serving hierarchies and "management" structures that interfere in the affairs of individual devotees or group preaching projects. Rather, he wants the Trust to function as an "advice bureau" that devotees independently consult on how to make their activities complimentary and harmonious with Srila Gurudeva's desire and instructions. To this end and in his function as founder-Chairman and autocrat-spiritual master, Srila Gurudeva will oversee and guide the Trust on how to execute its functions and effectively serve the interests of the devotee community. Thus, Srila Gurudeva is the final spiritual arbiter in all Trust matters.

It is also Srila Gurudeva's desire and order that the Trust protect his copyright, properties and assets. Srila Gurudeva wants the administration of the Trust to be transparent and available to the devotee community for their scrutiny, thereby encouraging them to offer their input, advice and energy to Trust functions.

In essence, the Trust will not take executive decisions on local devotee preaching projects, but will advise on those projects in response to queries initiated by the devotees themselves. While this can be done by individuals, Srila Gurudeva has suggested that where possible preaching interests and activities be independently organised and administered by devotee committees composed of devotees active in those respective fields.

The Trust will also provide a central source of information and, where appropriate, resource to the devotees for their respective grass-roots preaching projects. Thus, the Trust is not in any way a "governing body" but a vehicle for serving and facilitating devotees who are interested to practice and preach bhakti-yoga.

Srila Gurudeva's instructions are that the Trust serve the devotee community by providing a flexible, organic, responsive, dynamic structure that helps our sanga grow in the unrestricted flow of bhakti. He encourages all devotees to participate in whatever way they can to make the Trust successful in its aims and objectives.

Devotees are welcome to correspond on all matters with Brajanath Prabhu, the General Secretary of BHAKTI.

brajanath@purebhakti.com


Aspiring to serve Sri Guru and the Vaisnavas
Bhudhara dasa

*****
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:22:44 +0530
QUOTE(Kalkidas @ Jun 14 2004, 05:20 PM)

Srila Gurudeva wants the Trust to serve all the devotees, and to be guided by the essential principle of love and affection. 

It is also Srila Gurudeva's desire and order that the Trust protect his copyright, properties and assets.




What about stating in His books where originally information came from?

Essential guide of love and affection... is that for all the Gaudiya vaishnavas, other Vaishnava groups, or as i think it is, just for B.H.A.K.T.I. organization/institution ?
Love and affection in a way: Don't go elsewhere for information, or you can pack your bags, or just my way or highway. Certainly, it is very autocratic.

Unfortunately word autocratic also means:despotic,tyrant,absolute, and free from imperfection. I think they wanted certainly different word.I am not pointing fingers, i am just writing explanation from the dictionary.
RasaMrita - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:36:27 +0530
Tamal thank you for your advice. I've already edit it the original post after reading the board rules. Since I did not want to give away my source, it became something like jagat word "a rumor". Sometimes a I get skin deep with dualities. Anyhow was not my intention to offend any one. My apologies.

Well, I see kalki made the rumor a reality. Even though the letter posted by him is no more than a cover up. Why was he unable to do a padayatra in Mayapur last year? He is out. Again, I follow the money. Not sharing within the institution. A loose head that only used their resources. Pay attention. Learn from it.
Kalkidas - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:37:06 +0530
Tamal Baran ji, I copypasted this information from my friend's site only for information purposes. Personally I don't have any association with SNM and his disciples for the whole last year (after meeting with this forum wink.gif ) and even cancelled all my subscriptions for all newsgroups of his disciples...
So, I'm not the person to answer your questions. smile.gif
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:55:24 +0530
QUOTE(Kalkidas @ Jun 14 2004, 06:07 PM)
Tamal Baran ji, I copypasted this information from my friend's site only for information purposes. Personally I don't have any association with SNM and his disciples for the whole last year (after meeting with this forum wink.gif ) and even cancelled all my subscriptions for all newsgroups of his disciples...
So, I'm not the person to answer your questions. smile.gif

Dear Kalkiji,

I knew from the beginning, that you just did copy and paste this message. Questions will anyway not be answered..., but also i didn't think that you should answer them, because i have read from where message is coming.
Thank You, and forgive me if i caused any disturbance for you.I know from before, that you are not associated with SNM.
Jagat - Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:04:11 +0530
Internal conflicts are likely to be there in any institution where one person dominates. Narayan Maharaj is certainly bringing in the money, as Western devotees flock to him, and they're the ones with the big taka.

I am actually quite surprised that Narayan Maharaj has stuck it out with GVS, as the usual thing in such situations is that the person with the newfound pratishtha leaves in order to avoid possible conflicts. Vamana Maharaj is, as even Narayan Maharaj himself says, somewhat shy and self-effacing. It is almost inevitable that people come around to the Devananda Gaudiya Math and completely ignore Vamana Maharaj and maybe even slight him while acting like Narayan Maharaj groupies.

As I say, the fact that he has continue to support Vamana Maharaj and his own guru's institution for all these years without breaking out on his own should be seen as a plus. If, on the other hand, Vamana Maharaj and the others in the GVS find that Narayan Maharaj's pratishtha disrupts the smooth workings of the institution and that it would be better if he had his own organization, then that seems logical rather than something to be decried.

Sometimes feelings are hurt in the midst of such upheavals, but that does not mean that in the long run people are not acting out of the best interests of everyone concerned.
Madhava - Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:15:56 +0530
QUOTE(Tamal Baran das @ Jun 14 2004, 04:12 PM)
That is why i wrote about Narayana Maharaja most of the time talking about Rasa topics, because in Iskcon and Gaudiya Matha, Raganuga Bhakti is considered taboo topic.

I do not believe he speaks most of the time about rasa-topics. I put together their first lecture archive with a couple of hundred lectures, and most of them did not deal with rasa-topics all that much, what to speak of manjari-bhava. I believe his approach was different in the early days of Westerners coming to him, but that it has changed over time, perhaps partly due to peer pressure.
Anand - Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:22:42 +0530
QUOTE
Pay attention.  Learn from it.


 


Yes, please, let us...
jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:03:01 +0530
Such an interesting thread....

I must say indeed.

PEACE NOW,

bangli

wink.gif
Jagat - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:32:41 +0530
Yes, even when there is little interesting in the active threads, there is a lot of stuff in the archives worth looking at.
Tapati - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:03:17 +0530

I encounted this one today while looking for something else. I must say it was mostly depressing to read. There's got to be a better way to resolve spiritual differences of opinion without condemnation of the person holding the differing interpretation. I am not even going to take sides on this one as it is not my place, since I am no longer a Vaisnava. If only the different parties could even sit down and talk respectfully...but it seems impossible after reading this.

Blessed Be to all--

Tapati
jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:25:54 +0530
Tapati,

We know this thread all too well,

I say maybe history should be looked into here, like when Bhaktisiddhanta went to visit Ramakrishna Das Babaji..

whoops..

did I say that?

PEACE NOW,

bangli
Tapati - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:38:01 +0530

I know only a tiny amount of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's history, as I haven't been a Vaisnava for well over a decade and it's all very rusty, and I never paid that much attention to the history anyway, preferring to focus instead on scripture and lila. I'd rather not get into who did what to who and when and why and...

Thankfully, it's all water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. I am not concerned with anyone considering me "bona fide" and in fact, I hope I am not any such thing.

jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:51:19 +0530
Regardless of how you don't want to know the history of how Gaudiya Math broke off from mainstream Gaudiya Vaishnavism, it's NOT water under the bridge. Many who follow Sri Chaitanya today who don't know about this, deserve to know the history of the religion they follow and what happened.
Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow yes but that does not mean we should avoid it. You say you are not part of this tradition anymore... so why the concern ?

namaskar,

bangli
jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:11:28 +0530
Oh yea,

And that term 'bone fide' is from the other side of the tracks... biggrin.gif

namaskar,

bangli


Anand - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:37:10 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Dec 29 2004, 03:21 AM)
Regardless of how you don't want to know the history of how Gaudiya Math broke off from mainstream Gaudiya Vaishnavism, it's NOT water under the bridge. Many who follow Sri Chaitanya today who don't know about this, deserve to know the history of the religion they follow and what happened.
Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow yes but that does not mean we should avoid it. You say you are not part of this tradition anymore... so why the concern ?

namaskar,

bangli



A good question, why the concern. Genuine concern leads one to investigation of causes and prevention of new or reocurring symptoms.
Tapati - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:52:08 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Dec 28 2004, 10:21 PM)
Regardless of how you don't want to know the history of how Gaudiya Math broke off from mainstream Gaudiya Vaishnavism, it's NOT water under the bridge. Many who follow Sri Chaitanya today who don't know about this, deserve to know the history of the religion they follow and what happened.
Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow yes but that does not mean we should avoid it. You say you are not part of this tradition anymore... so why the concern ?

namaskar,

bangli



I stated that it was water under the bridge to me and that I am not a Vaisnava anymore. I was merely commenting on how sad the whole situation/conflict was. From my viewpoint outside, it appears you all have much more in common than you have differences. I wasn't interested in learning more of the history at this time for myself and I took your reference with its subsequent qualifier to be tongue in cheek. (In the vein of, "If you think this other stuff was bad wait'll I tell you about this!") If others need to know what happened, that is fine, for them. I was simply trying to say, don't elaborate on my account. I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone who actually does want to know more. If someone does want this history, by all means continue the discussion and I'll read other things.
Madhava - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:03:38 +0530
I should repeat, "Such an interesting topic." smile.gif
babu - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:50:04 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 29 2004, 04:22 AM)


I stated that it was water under the bridge to me and that I am not a Vaisnava anymore.


You say you're not a Vaisnava anymore but you also refer to ACBS as your spiritual master (elsewhere). Did he inspire you to take up worship of the various demigods and thus he is still your guru?
jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:27:30 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 29 2004, 04:22 AM)

I stated that it was water under the bridge to me and that I am not a Vaisnava anymore. I was merely commenting on how sad the whole situation/conflict was. From my viewpoint outside, it appears you all have much more in common than you have differences. I wasn't interested in learning more of the history at this time for myself


Not trying to bust your chops here, but you say as an outsider it appears we have more in common that differences, now how would you know that if your not open to hearing 'BOTH SIDES' of the story?
I have noticed before you saying your not interested in hearing if there was a break in the Guru-Parampara you belonged to and that is was unimportant to you, why not?
If your no longer a Vaishnava as you say? Whats the harm of hearing our side, especially since you are here on 'OUR' side of the tracks?
Your in Babaji Land here biggrin.gif
Iskcon/GM claims their Disciplic succession is the 'ONLY' authentic line of Sri Chaitanya, and goes so far as to state that anyone outside that 'authentic line' will only be bewildered, sahajiyas and so on...
That is simply not true and is very plain to see if you visit Braja, Radha Kunda and different Vaishnavas coming in other lines that have been around hundreds of years longer that Iskcon/GM which is a new mission.
You can see from this thread and other threads here many left iskcon/GM after finding out for themselves that information was simply false and those who made those claims were committing sadhu ninda and also not giving the entire teachings of Sri Chaitanya.

namaskar,

bangli
jijaji - Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:17:47 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Dec 29 2004, 08:33 AM)
I should repeat, "Such an interesting topic." smile.gif


Ok Madhava,

Maybe you could call it...

'No Need To Visit The Babajis' The 2005 version update!

tongue.gif
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:04:40 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Dec 29 2004, 10:57 AM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 29 2004, 04:22 AM)

I stated that it was water under the bridge to me and that I am not a Vaisnava anymore. I was merely commenting on how sad the whole situation/conflict was. From my viewpoint outside, it appears you all have much more in common than you have differences. I wasn't interested in learning more of the history at this time for myself


Not trying to bust your chops here, but you say as an outsider it appears we have more in common that differences, now how would you know that if your not open to hearing 'BOTH SIDES' of the story?
I have noticed before you saying your not interested in hearing if there was a break in the Guru-Parampara you belonged to and that is was unimportant to you, why not?
If your no longer a Vaishnava as you say? Whats the harm of hearing our side, especially since you are here on 'OUR' side of the tracks?
Your in Babaji Land here biggrin.gif
Iskcon/GM claims their Disciplic succession is the 'ONLY' authentic line of Sri Chaitanya, and goes so far as to state that anyone outside that 'authentic line' will only be bewildered, sahajiyas and so on...
That is simply not true and is very plain to see if you visit Braja, Radha Kunda and different Vaishnavas coming in other lines that have been around hundreds of years longer that Iskcon/GM which is a new mission.
You can see from this thread and other threads here many left iskcon/GM after finding out for themselves that information was simply false and those who made those claims were committing sadhu ninda and also not giving the entire teachings of Sri Chaitanya.

namaskar,

bangli




My dear Bangli,

I cannot have been here reading for awhile and not have encountered some of the basics of the history of the split. I simply am not interested in reading in great detail because it is no longer my path and does not really apply to me any longer. I am sympathetic enough to your side of things to offer money to help translate and print books for your tradition. Doesn't that demonstrate my respect sufficiently?

The idea of a break in my former spiritual line is intellectually interesting but since I don't believe in the literal need for a disciplic succession it doesn't matter to my own spiritual life or to my affection for Srila Prabhupada. I don't see him as having been so much intentionally inimical as he was following the instructions of his own trusted gurudev.

While in strictist terms he is not my spiritual master or leader anymore, I still honor many concepts from him and retain a deep affection for him. You have to understand, I became a devotee at the age of 15, I had no father growing up (although he lived in the same town and paid child support), and Srila Prabhupada is very much a father figure for me. To him I can only say, "Thank you for giving me that which you value above all else. I am sorry I cannot believe all of it any longer or serve you, but I do value a great many things that you taught me and love you dearly."

As for the continuing conflict with GM folk like Narayana Maharaj, I find his behavior in regard to some sort of challenge to be rather childish. In the actual standard of behavior of either branch of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, touting the lower than a straw in the street ideal, he should humbly approach the babajis and simply explain that while he bears them no ill will and has all respect for their service, he must follow his guru's desire in keeping his organization and disciples separate. He should try at all times to present this in the most non-offensive manner to his disciples, if he feels that it is necessary. He has not done so and that is clearly his fault.

Proper Vaisnava behavior on both sides should be one of regretting that there is this split, offering all respects to the sincerity of service on both sides, and taking pains to avoid giving offense. Agreeing to disagree is a good thing for all concerned.

For myself, I appreciate what all Vaisnavas have to teach about devotion and appreciate their association.

Blessed Be to you all.
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:11:47 +0530
There is a story, from a diversity workshop I attended, that helped me to understand what I think is a very important point to understand when you are being criticized for being different.

The trainer was telling us that she was working with high school students, and she asked them to come up with all the most insulting words, including any obscenities, vulgar expressions, and so forth, that make them angry or hurt their feelings. We can all imagine the usual ones, f--- you, etc.

She then said, "So suppose someone comes up to you and says, 'You have f---ing pink hair, your pink hair is full of s---,'" and she went on to use each one of these upsetting phrases, insulting pink hair.

She asked the student, "How does that make you feel?"

The student says, "Well, I don't have pink hair, so it doesn't bother me at all, I'd just think they were being stupid!"

She said, "Exactly. You only get upset if you think what they are criticizing you for is true!"

In the workshop, we were examining how we internalized our culture's judgment of us for being queer, or black, Asian, disabled, etc., and the point was that someone's epithets insulting that characteristic could only offend us if we bought into the judgment of society, the stereotype held about our group.

In terms of these charges being made between Vaishnavas, one can be quite calm when they are made if one simply knows that the other side is mistaken in their accusations, and one believes that to the core. If one has doubt, even a little, then one is hooked in to the criticism emotionally. Rather than argue and try to convince the other person, the real work must come from within. Then one has no need to convince others of one's position. It is then easier to follow the doctrine of offering all respects to other Vaishnavas. If their path is different, one must have full faith in one's own Gurudeva and one's own path, and let the other Vaishnavas worry about their own. In the case of those honoring both paths, one can have faith that the path of honoring all Vaishnavas is the path for one's self, and if others can't do that, then that is their choice.

I applied this workshop viewpoint to my own internalized homophobia, and rooted out the beliefs I still held that there was anything at all wrong with being queer, and now I can go and do a Triangle Speakers* workshop and listen to all sorts of accusatory questions without becoming angry. I have no need to convince a fundamentalist Christian that being queer is ok and that I'm not going to some hell. I can calmly tell them that it's fine with me if they believe that I am, all I ask is that they not act out discrimination against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people, and respect our equal rights as Americans.

I hope this story may be of some small use to those experiencing real pain in regard to these internal Vaishnava disputes. If not, please kindly disregard.

*(Triangle Speakers is an organization that goes to groups and takes questions about our lives in order to prevent discrimination and promote equal rights.)
babu - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:16:07 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 29 2004, 08:34 PM)
I don't see him as having been so much intentionally inimical as he was following the instructions of his own trusted gurudev.


Not a very good excuse, "I was just following instructions." So because one is instructed by one's guru that the Radha Kunda babajis are cheap imitators, its ok to repeat that without critical examination?


QUOTE
In the actual standard of behavior of either branch of Gaudiya Vaisnavism,


If two branches aren't getting along, they are not from the same tree.

QUOTE
he must follow his guru's desire in keeping his organization and disciples separate.


And what is square one of why his guru didn't want his organization to associate with saintly people?

QUOTE
He should try at all times to present this in the most non-offensive manner to his disciples, if he feels that it is necessary. He has not done so and that is clearly his fault.


There is no non-offensive way to do it. The idea itself is offensive.

QUOTE
Proper Vaisnava behavior on both sides should be one of regretting that there is this split,


There is no split. The tree is strong and healthy and is not at war with itself. If the Kindom of God is at war with itself, then we do have problems.
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 05:41:16 +0530
If a disciple truly follows the instructions of his spiritual master, and will not associate with a certain group of saintly Vaishnavas because that was the instruction, then I do think there is a way to carry out that instruction that is not offensive. One might say, "I don't wish to offend, and I don't pretend to understand this instruction of my Gurudeva, but because I love him I must obey his instructions and not spend time with you. Please forgive my offense. I do not mean by this to indicate that I lack respect for you or your great service."

I think all Vaishnavas can understand the desire of a sincere disciple to follow the instructions of his Gurudev.

I am sure there are many gurus in the world who would tell their disciples not to associate with me for a variety of reasons. I don't take offense at this. But then, I'm not saintly.
jijaji - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:11:46 +0530
Tapati,

No one ever said you were not sympathetic to our side, and yes it is nice you want to help with the publication and translation of books etc.

However, I personally think you are commenting on subject matters here you don't know too much about really.
There has been no 'split' in the traditional Gaudiya Parivars from the time of Sri Chaitanya. GM started it's own missionary branch yes and introduced it's own new fangled version. But there was no split. Traditional Gaudiyas never were part of that mission so how then a split? Gm just started a mission and pretty much declared themselves as the one and only true followers of Sri Chaitanya rejecting pretty much all other traditional lines outside themselves..even Bhaktivinodes own Guru.

You can say a break in a disciplic line is unimportant to you because you don't belong to that tradition anymore, but clearly you are taking sides in that regard.
Just for the record here, Iskcon/GM declare that one has to belong to an unbroken link themselves., but only THEIR link as all others are 'bogus' (their lingo)

You are very verbal in saying how Vaishnavas should behave but there are and have been real differences, and not just in regard to manners but siddhanta and the historical teachings of Sri Chaitanyas Religion, that have been more less highjacked and misrepresented by zealous missionaries.

And yes ACBS followed the instructions of his own guru, frankly some of us don't trust that those instructions were exactly in line with not only his father, but the majority of the Gaudiya faith in general.

I understand how you feel indebted towards your 'Guru' and you do refer to him as that I must point out, even though you say your no longer a vaishnava, which is a bit confusing.

It is wrong and out of line with our scriptures for a vaishnava to forbid his disiples to have association with advanced vaishnavas period. It is just wrong with no justification whatsoever sorry!

You speak to us of proper vaishnava behaviour and how everyone should just get along. I think you should take time to understand what a real guru-parampara is and the importance of having proper diksha and a few other things, like how sannyas is totally out of line with not only our line, but Sri Chaitanyas religion period.

I mean no offense to you, I consider you a nice person,

namaskar,

bangli
Anand - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:14:21 +0530
5,537 views and counting. This is an all time record, isn't it?
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:43:28 +0530

Certainly you have your own way according to your tradition of viewing the situation and the definition of "split." In a similar vein, I suppose the Catholic Church could say, what split? The various Protestants just went off and did their own thing, Christianity never split. We're still the one true Church. What are you talking about, split?

When you all call yourselves Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and you are from different traditions of that larger group, and disagree with each other over various points of doctrine, what can I call that but a split? I am concerned, and it saddens me, because I once belonged to one of those groups and wish nothing but the best to everyone on both sides. I wish there could be a resolution, or at least a cease fire, because to see people of good will and sincere belief and intent go at each other like that, and see the pain that it causes them, is incredibly sad.

If my relationship with Srila Prabhupada is confusing to you, it is no less so to me. What to call someone who gave you initiation, whom you still love, but disagree with on many points and therefore can no longer follow? In conversing with Vaishnavas I fall back on the usual terminology out of habit. Nothing more. I do not consider him my Guru in the conventional sense of the word, yet he was at one time and I still love him. I offer him the respect of calling him that because that is the terminology he gave me. If he was wrong about some things, that does not affect my love in the slightest. It simply makes him more human to me, rather than the impersonal icon some have tried to turn him into.

It seems to me that the research you urge me to take up is so I will have a lightbulb moment and realize, "Aha, they are right, GM and ISKCON are bogus!"

I am saying, so what if they are? It means nothing to me. If a bunch of bogus people are saying that your tradition is not correct in some way, why should that mean anything to you since you don't respect their opinion on the matter anyway? And similarly, if they think the lot of you are bogus sahajiyas, what should it matter to them what you say about their tradition and whether or not Bhaktisiddhanta was truly initiated or not?

If not out of Vaishnava respect, common sense would seem to dictate that you studiously ignore each other!

If a bunch of crows are cawing at the gate to your yard, do you argue with them or ignore them as best you can?

What guidance do you get from your own Gurudev about this whole situation? Does he tell you to debate them and conquer them in argument? Or discuss them endlessly? Or ignore them? Or some other path? If you haven't asked him, perhaps you should. (Or the assembled babajis, I do understand that there are more than one and some have passed on.)

For that matter, I know you all think I am deluded and worshipping some demigoddess. Why should I care? Other than answering some basic questions about paganism, I have no need to spend 20 or 30 posts trying to convince you that Gaudiya Vaishnavism is wrong and that Kuan Yin is the one true way to enlightenment (even if I believed that, which I don't). My path works for me and that's all I need to know.

The conflict among Vaishnavas is just another manifestation of conflict over religious differences around the globe that wearies and saddens me. Lovers of God ought to be able to love each other, somehow. Or at least not throw stones at each other or each other's Gods.

I respect you also. I am not sure if the real problem is that we aren't fully understanding each other's terminology or what. I didn't expect such a reaction to my initial two posts to this thread, I went back and re-read them and still don't understand it.

Blessed Be
jijaji - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:09:50 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 30 2004, 05:41 AM)
If a disciple truly follows the instructions of his spiritual master, and will not associate with a certain group of saintly Vaishnavas because that was the instruction, then I do think there is a way to carry out that instruction that is not offensive. One might say, "I don't wish to offend, and I don't pretend to understand this instruction of my Gurudeva, but because I love him I must obey his instructions and not spend time with you. Please forgive my offense. I do not mean by this to indicate that I lack respect for you or your great service."

I think all Vaishnavas can understand the desire of a sincere disciple to follow the instructions of his Gurudev.

I am sure there are many gurus in the world who would tell their disciples not to associate with me for a variety of reasons. I don't take offense at this. But then, I'm not saintly.



Why would a true 'Guru' not allow his disciples to spend time with other Vaishnavas? Why not let one's disciples benefit from association of advanced Vaishnavas?
That is so against the teachings of Sri Chaitanya and the Gaudiya scriptures, it cannot be condoned period.

I don't think you want to see how improper that is. It's just plain cultish..!

namaskar,

bangli
Anand - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:15:56 +0530
Bangli,

If you allow me, I will take just a moment here. In these exchanges between you two, Tapati seems to be simply representing herself and disclosing openly her present position regarding her connection with ACBS. She does not seem to be taking any side but the side which she finds herself on presently, which is really more neutral then anything else you might like to qualify it as.

Anyway, you, however, do take a side, no, actually you take the position of representing a side. Just out of curiosity (and hope I am not being incovenient), would you mind telling who is your guru?
jijaji - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:22:32 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Dec 30 2004, 07:15 AM)
Bangli,

If you allow me, I will take just a moment here. In these exchanges between you two, Tapati seems to be simply representing herself and disclosing openly her present position regarding her connection with ACBS. She does not seem to be taking any side but the side which she finds herself on presently, which is really more neutral then anything else you might like to qualify it as.

Anyway, you, however, do take a side, no, actually you take the position of representing a side. Just out of curiosity (and hope I am not being incovenient), would you mind telling who is your guru?



I took initiation in iskcon back in the early 70's from ACBS. I have corresponded with and met wiith Ananta Das Babaji last year and am planning to take diksha from him in early 2005, trying to get there in Febuary.

namaskar,

bangli
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:24:12 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Dec 29 2004, 08:39 PM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 30 2004, 05:41 AM)
If a disciple truly follows the instructions of his spiritual master, and will not associate with a certain group of saintly Vaishnavas because that was the instruction, then I do think there is a way to carry out that instruction that is not offensive. One might say, "I don't wish to offend, and I don't pretend to understand this instruction of my Gurudeva, but because I love him I must obey his instructions and not spend time with you. Please forgive my offense. I do not mean by this to indicate that I lack respect for you or your great service."

I think all Vaishnavas can understand the desire of a sincere disciple to follow the instructions of his Gurudev.

I am sure there are many gurus in the world who would tell their disciples not to associate with me for a variety of reasons. I don't take offense at this. But then, I'm not saintly.



Why would a true 'Guru' not allow his disciples to spend time with other Vaishnavas? Why not let one's disciples benefit from association of advanced Vaishnavas?
That is so against the teachings of Sri Chaitanya and the Gaudiya scriptures, it cannot be condoned period.

I don't think you want to see how improper that is. It's just plain cultish..!

namaskar,

bangli




I personally am not concerned with how improper or misguided it is. I may even agree with you. Nevertheless, someone in the position of having a Guru who takes this position, but in all other respects has been a good teacher to them, who they revere, will want to follow his instructions as they are taught is the position of a disciple. So, are you going to hold it against them if they are just trying to (as inoffensively as possible) try to follow their Gurudeva's instructions?

And losing that saintly association is just their loss.
jijaji - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:32:02 +0530
Later Tapati...

Like I said before I think you are commenting on things you don't know all that well..

take care,

namaskar,

bangli
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:37:26 +0530

Well, since it disturbs you so, I will stop. I always hope to encourage tolerance. I recognize sometimes it is not possible.

Blessed Be
jijaji - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:44:58 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 30 2004, 07:37 AM)
Well, since it disturbs you so, I will stop. I always hope to encourage tolerance.  I recognize sometimes it is not possible.

Blessed Be



How condescending..

rolleyes.gif
babu - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:48:35 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 30 2004, 01:13 AM)
Certainly you have your own way according to your tradition of viewing the situation and the definition of "split." In a similar vein, I suppose the Catholic Church could say, what split? The various Protestants just went off and did their own thing, Christianity never split. We're still the one true Church. What are you talking about, split?


When this comes up for me at a party, I excuse myself from the argument for reasons that its in bad taste to discuss politics or religion at social outings. Privately I feel though anyone who feels that the Catholic Church is the only representive of God on earth is bit out of touch with reality to have a reasonable discussion with.

QUOTE
For that matter, I know you all think I am deluded and worshipping some demigoddess.


If you understand that your Goddess is a most passionate lover, then we don't think you are deluded. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the exploration of this love and passion between God and Goddess with one as an intimate assistant.
Tapati - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:51:09 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Dec 29 2004, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 30 2004, 07:37 AM)
Well, since it disturbs you so, I will stop. I always hope to encourage tolerance.  I recognize sometimes it is not possible.

Blessed Be



How condescending..

rolleyes.gif



It was not intended that way but I can understand how it seemed to be. I apologize.
Jagat - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:23:38 +0530
In many ways, Bangli, your posts to Tapati could also be considered very condescending.

Does someone have to be a member of a tradition and understand all its historical ins-and-outs in order to be able to recognize that there is unnecessary animosity within it?

It was an important discovery for all of us to find that Siddhanta Saraswati had created a new approach to Mahaprabhu's dharma, but we need to be able to go beyond it to get to the essence of bhakti. We can still give credit to him and others without any threat to our own path. Indeed, I don't think that it is outside the scope of the Vaishnava path itself to honor all those who commit themselves to it, from the uttama to the kanishtha, even recognizing that there are differences in approach.

I have told this story before. I was in Mayapur when Bhaktivedanta Swami left his body. In his last will and testament, he asked that money be given to the local Vaishnavas and forgiveness asked for anything that he may have said or done that was offensive. To a man, every bhakta I spoke to recognized that he had done everything to spread the Holy Name and Mahaprabhu's glories.

If we have found something glorious, then let's be happy with that. And let's be happy for everyone else also.
Madhava - Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:44:34 +0530
Jagat's post sounds like good final words before the topic is locked. If someone sees a need to prolong discussion on any particular point in this topic, then please start a new topic in the appropriate section. Topic closed.