Modern Gurus, Kirtanananda and related issues - Split from "Gurus: Moving On"

When Krsna was bugging me this morning I repeated the above to him/her and said that I wasn't really initiated so "quit buggin me", he/she laughed and kept buggin me.

I dont believe you. You have never seen Krishna. The acaryas say that one must follow in the footsteps of the gopis, not of Clint Eastwood and Michael Jackson. One can judge a tree by its fruits....

What do you mean? Moonwalker = jyotsnAbhisArikA.

Hey don't get me wrong, i'm on your side, thing is Radha Krsna doesn't really care what I say or what you say or what anyone says, whenever I say that "I am not worthy so cut it out" or "hey, respect that devotees authoritah he's read a book and the book says I aint got my papers in order " I just get laughed at.

Really i'm on your side, but maybe you can think up a better argument for me to use.

Yeh but a pedophile one? Ah well, in that only bonafide movement in the universe - one should follow in the footsteps of the acaryas, right.

In Vedic literature there were many different kinds of gurus. Kshatriyas had astra-gurus etc.etc. There are teachers of dance and music that are referred to as guru?

So, does every reference from shastra about accepting or rejecting guru necessarily apply to a nama-guru or diksha-guru or siksha-guru in Gaudiya culture?

Does every reference about rejecting a guru apply to a Vaishnava in Gaudiya culture and whether or not he can reject a Vaishnava devotee as a guru?

I think you have a bit of explaining to do before anyone will be entertaining even a remote possibility of interaction with you.

Call me a heretic, but after what happened in Iskcon, after seeing the falldown of almost all "almighty gurus", I think one is to reconsider these statements. Look, Keith (Kirtanananda) is in prison, everyone knows about his deeds, molesting children, doing gangster business, etc but even today he is preaching from the jail, giving initiations, has a website. So in the light of the above quoted sentences that is absolutely correct. And why could he and the other gangster gurus do their things undisturbed? Because sheep-like devotees thought, "Oh, he is such a pure soul, we cannot understand his deeds, who I am to raise my voice against such a great guru, let us do puja to his guard dogs." So instead of being kicked in the butt a few thousand times and chased away, these criminals were worshipped on thrones. Yes, sometimes real, I repeat, real mahabhagavata avadhutas can display disturbing acts, but I think in Kali yuga nobody shouls falsely claim to be an avadhuta, and we should not be so blind to accept each and every gangster in dhoti as a mahatma whose deeds are transcendental.

Radhe!

a) Harikesa Swami (like many of the Big-Shot-Gurus) was involved in MANY illegal affairs, including using tons of BBT money for dealing with the Russian stock market = so i left him (and he left us )

b) Narayana Maharaja forbade me to read the books of Srila Ananta das Babaji, condemned nearly all of the Babajis via Internet-lecture = so I left him

still, i try to cultivate some respect and thankfulness for the above mentioned. hard to do, though.

even if there should be something as a real Gaudiya diksha in ISKCON/GM, i still would leave a Guru who is preventing me from advancing further.

of course, in the view of persons like Kshamabuddhi, associating with Mahatmas like Babaji Mahasaya is no advancement and Srila Narayana Maharaja wanted to do the best for me in preventing my hellish-sahajiyic-evil-downfall.
who the heck cares?

follow your heart

Tarunji

In my case, I never received initiation in Iskcon. The guru I received Harinam from some years before left Iskcon and joined GM, associated with Sridhar Maharaj and BP Puri Maharaj. Knowing this I thought he would be a person focusing on deepening our sadhana, a kind of bhajananandi type. But soon I had to realize he was very truthful to Bhaktivedanta Swami's spirit and continued his mission, always lecturing about preaching and opening centers, this being the main emphasis in his teachings. So it was the same as Iskcon, of course without corruption and money-consciousness. That is why I felt that I could not follow him any more. It might be negative to leave a guru, but in my humble opinion nearly not as negative as pretending to follow a guru while you actually disagree with him in your heart.

I’m not advocating defense on the name of Kirtananada. I’m aware of all the strange things that took place in New Vrindavana, but I have been to the Sanctuary Temple, in New York, on the Second Avenue, and for my surprise people that goes there are better educated them the local Iskcon temple. Some of the restaurant’s consumers are Government authorities, writers and so on, and if one ask them about Krishna Consciousness, they almost have the same opinion: “I can chant Maha-mantra here and feel good, but I would never go to the others Hare Krishna Temple”. And most of them like him and are waiting for him to come out of the prison. Another surprising thing for me is the strong faith that the devotees have on Kirtananada. He reads Srimad Bhagavatam as the mooring class from the prison everyday and has some private talking with his disciples at 5pm. Incredible, but that is all true; believe if you can.

Anyhow, if one is passing by, do not forget to ask for the famous chess-cake, it is the best in NY. Devotees are friendly, and the restaurant is well decorated with a nice Murti of Krishna-Nataraja.

Radhe!

thanx, dear Advaitaji for warning me.
but honestly, i was very torn apart until i reached the conclusion to leave SNM.

i know that Krishna wants me to honour him and to be thankful to him and i try my level-best.

but i would do the same thing again.
how can a guru forbid anyone to have the association of another exalted Vaishnava?

i feel very secure under the guidance of Srila Ananta das Babaji. hopefully i will meet with him this year in person, but until now his letters very nicely helped me on my path.

Tarunji

the humble Kshamabuddhi:



yo, Mr. Perfect. i dont want to sound arrogant or something, but you call us:



most basic standards, huh?
up to six rounds, so you are so advanced as to judge all members here...

what an arrogance from your side to attack the senior devotees here.

i just visited the bunch of anti-raganuga-threads in the saraswata.net-forum.
i couldnt believe....

Thanks for sharing that info. It just comes to show that even if a person is caught red-handed with his pants down getting reared in the butt, even if he is in jail for murder, even if he is known to have orchestrated illegal activites of money making, still he will have faithful followers of all walks of life who may be more pious and honest than him.

It is not a new phenomena for someone to have a lot of followers who think that their leader is a flawless saint, despite confirmations of being otherwise. A recent survey conducted in the Mid-East showed a suprising number of people still view Osama Bin Laden as a saint. What does all this mean? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Your misinformation is astounding. He is not in jail for murder. He was not even put on trial for murder.

You rely too much on hearsay without going for the true facts. This jeopardizes your credibility for anything else you might write.

Now on the basis of a small error you want to pull Radhapada's writing into disrepute. How would you judge ACBS's writings, considering his proven slips of good taste?

Oh! shew. Did I make a mistake? Really sorry. Tell me then, what is he in jail for all these years, distributing books without a permit?

I agree with this. As far as I know, he was convicted for mail fraud. Even if besides the topic and only to demonstrate a point, we need to be careful with the facts we present. Research, and if you can't find solid facts, don't speak.

I appoligize, it was mail fraud. However, it is a fact that there was a devotee murdered there. What for, who knows?

Many Mafia gangsters are only convicted on light Federal charges although most of the public is aware that they are engaged in murdering their own as well. It's tough to pin high charges on crafty, clever organized crime criminals. People are afraid to come foward to testify because out of fear of the organization, or loyality to the organization.

Kirtanananda was indeed indicted also for conspiracy in two counts of murder
but then not convicted for that.

Quote:
After a trial, the jury convicted Swami on the RICO and mail

fraud counts but failed to reach a verdict on the murder counts.
Unquote

Full text of published sentence here:

http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/june95/945507.p.html

Before accusing anyone of being misinformed, try to collect informations yourself.

That doesn't quite jive with what Nabadip posted. At any rate, I wonder if you'll get away with 30 years for "authorizing a murder, kidnapping, and beating..." in addition to all the other charges?

News from the jail:

DEVOTEE: What should we do if we feel attacked by another devotee?

BHAKTIPADA: Actually it’s your false ego that’s being attacked. We should THANK Krishna everytime that false ego is attacked. TYK — Thank you Krishna! We should think, "This is for my benefit". This instruction is for everyone. It may seem difficult, but the end is sweet. We need to become absorbed in our SERVICE and when necessary, defend our fellow devotees, not ourselves. Whatever destroys that false ego is GOOD. And I promise if you follow my instruction on this, TYK — Thank you, Krishna — I will take you home. Krishna is sending the situation with LOVE. Thank you, Krishna that I’m in jail. Thank you, Krishna, that I lost my friends. Embrace it! It is all part of Krishna’s perfect plan. It is the best of all possibilities. Otherwise, why would Krishna send it? Even when it is poison or burns like poison, TYK — Thank you, Krishna — then it turns sweet as nectar. When a devotee surrenders to Krishna, just surrenders, then everything is fine.
http://www.artexstudio.com/intfaith/news.htm

S.N.M's 2002 Tour in NY, was in a Reatreat/resort that is under the supervision of Kirtanananda:

http://www.artexstudio.com/intfaith/retreat.htm

Bhaktipada told the following story:

When Prabhupada first took me to India, it was in July. I had only one dark wool flannel suit, and Prabhupada wanted me to wear it. The airplane wasn’t too bad, but it was so hot in India that when we got off the plane it was like running into a brick wall! Whenever we went anyplace, Prabhupada wanted me to wear the suit so he could show off his American disciple.

We stayed at Radha Damodar Temple in Vrindavan, and Prabhupada performed the fire sacrifice for my sannyas initiation. He was assisted by Narayana Maharaja, who also made my tridanda. Prabhupada said that he gave me sannyas in the presence of Rupa and Sanatana Goswamis.

If people wish to discuss Kirtanananda, ISKCON gurus and so forth, such topics should go into the thread split off from this one.

In my opinion that was good enough; let the spirits sleep in peace.

Who in God's name would want to dicuss Kirtanananda..I don't get?

Beats me.

Apparently YOU do, otherwise you would have simply remained silent and let that topic die...

Not at all...just amazed!

sorry

Have you ever see a no orthodox Rabbi chanting Hare Krishna as a way of demonstrating freedom and unification among religionists, and introducing his fellows to K.C., or have you ever tried the famous chess-cake and other varieties of food (prasada) at the Sanctuary, on First Avenue, Low East Side, NY? If you did, you probably would have something to say about K. and his sincere followers.

These are all happening there at Interfaith and they are growing fast. Again, I’m advocating nothing in here, the whole thing is just a big surprise for me. Once more, let the spirits sleep in peace...

Famous chess-cake? Sounds to me like you're a pawn of Kirtanananda. As for me, I don't want to get rooked.

Ha, Ha, Ha... funny , funny! The idea here is I’m taking it lightly as possible! I can just say what I sow, smart and happy people chanting and taking prasada at Low-East-Side, NY.

I'm sorry; I just couldn't resist the pun.

Seriously, I'm happy about your positive experience. Still, I would caution you: "smart and happy" people may be a lot more uplifiting association than the "stupid and morose," but this alone is not a sufficient indicator of a positive spiritual experience.

Well, is there anything higher than Sri Vrindavana Dham ? Outside Vraja-mandala, (at the best) everything else is just attempting reflections of its shadows.

It's obvious that I am not understanding your point, as I don't see the connection between Kirtanananda's smart and happy restaurant patrons and your statement about Vrindavana dhama. So I'll just leave the point alone, and not say anything more in this regard.

There is no connection at all! I’m just trying to say that there is nothing outside Sri Vrindanava Dham. Does not matter what one find outside it will never satisfy. In other words, I have been in many so-called devotional community in the west, and I never found nothing but fragile attempting to propagate the Holy Names.

Oh yes... By the way, happy Easter!

Happy Easter Indeed!

Thank you

This brings to mind Lucian's tract The Passing of Peregrinus (11 ff.). Some things never change.

In America you can get away with 3 months for all that.

What part of America you grow up in betal_nut..?

I grew up in Cali, Bangli.
Like your avatar.

June 26,2004

TO: All the Vaisnavas of New Vrindavan, Iskcon, and devotees of Lord Krishna all over the world:

All glories to Srila Prabhupada, our divine Spiritual Master, our eternal Guide, and our Source of all benediction and blessing. I offer my humble obeisances to all of you.

namah om vishnu padaya krishna presthaya bhutale
srimati bhaktivedanta swamin iti namine

namaste sarasvati deve gaura vani pracarine
nirvisesa sunyavadi pasyata desa tarine

I approach all of you with humble prostrations, begging for your mercy so that I may receive the mercy of Guru and Krishna. I know throughout many years of service to Prabhupada and Lord Krishna in New Vrindavan, that I have offended many Vaisnavas, and have even broken the regulative principles. For that I have been reaping corrective chastisement from Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. I am reminded of the story of Durvasa Muni and Maharaja Amburish. I, too, have offended the Vaisnavas, and no matter where I go or how much punishment I receive I cannot regain the shelter of Prabhupada's lotus feet without the Vaisnavas' mercy. Please be kind to me and show me your causeless mercy, and bless me that I may again serve Srila Prabhupada to his full satisfaction.

Your humble servant,

Kirtanananda Swami

http://www.kirtananandaswami.org/letter.html

It looks like Kirtanananda Maharaj has been busy writing while in jail. A fairly mellow spirit, commenting on Krishna lila. http://www.kirtananandaswami.org/daily.html

Im sorry, say again? Could you please present some facts to back up this VERY strong statement?

This topic is long over. There is plenty of other material to look at for you bbr. If you are new here, it is your duty to inform yourself.

A Swami, Paroled Into the Open Arms of His Temple

July 11, 2004
By PETER DUFFY

A disgraced religious leader has served his time in prison and has now returned to lead his New York City flock.

Kirtananda Swami Bhaktipada was once a major figure in the Hare Krishna movement. For the past several years, he has been in a federal prison in North Carolina after pleading guilty to racketeering charges.

Released on June 16, Mr. Bhaktipada, a Peekskill native who was born Keith Gordon Ham, returned to Manhattan and took up residence in the downtown headquarters of his Hare Krishna splinter organization, the Interfaith League of Devotees, which operates out of a building on First Avenue near Second Street.

But even as he celebrated his freedom, the International Society of Krishna Consciousness, which expelled Mr. Bhaktipada in 1987, sent out a memorandum reminding its membership that he is prohibited from visiting any society temple.

Undeterred, the 66-year-old swami is resuming his ministry. And the men and women who regard him as a great teacher could not be more pleased.

"It's like having your father back," said a woman who gave her name as Eternal Love during a recent prayer session in the building's second-floor temple.

Mr. Bhaktipada was one of the first American followers of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, an Indian holy man who opened a temple in the East Village in 1965. His organization, the International Society of Krishna Consciousness, was seen by young members of the counterculture as a thrilling novelty. Known as Hare Krishnas, his followers were famous for dancing around Tompkins Square Park in saffron robes, beating drums and chanting.

In 1968, with the society gaining in popularity, Mr. Bhaktipada found cheap land in West Virginia and began building a commune named New Vrindaban. Its centerpiece was a resplendent Palace of Gold that soon drew busloads of tourists. The domed structure had mirrored ceilings, crystal chandeliers, quartz-handled faucets, finely carved teakwood furniture, and a bevy of murals depicting scenes in Krishna's life.

But as the commune grew to include as many as 700 devotees, Mr. Bhaktipada's manner concerned his colleagues in the Hare Krishna movement. He was expelled from the society in 1987 for "numerous, serious illegal acts" as well as deviations from its teachings and elevating himself above its founder, Mr. Prabhupada.

Then, in 1990, after a two-year investigation, the federal government indicted Mr. Bhaktipada on five counts of racketeering, six counts of mail fraud and conspiracy to murder two Hare Krishna dissidents. The government alleged that Mr. Bhaktipada masterminded scams that netted a profit of more than $10.5 million over four years. It also charged that he ordered the killings - eventually committed by another Hare Krishna devotee - because the victims threatened to reveal that he sexually abused minors.

Jim Lees, a lawyer who represented Mr. Bhaktipada, said that the government was overzealous in its prosecution. Mr. Bhaktipada refused to be interviewed for this article.

The swami was convicted on 9 of 11 counts in 1991, but the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit threw out the convictions, saying that child molestation evidence had unfairly prejudiced the jury against Mr. Bhaktipada, who was not charged with those crimes.

In 1996, before Mr. Bhaktipada's retrial was completed, he pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering, admitting to his role in the scams and murders. After the swami's imprisonment, the International Society of Krishna Consciousness conducted its own investigation and determined that he had committed sexual abuse against two children, said Anuttama Dasa, communications director for the society.

Adi Purusha Das, a spokesman for Mr. Bhaktipada, characterized the charges as "totally fallacious." Mr. Bhaktipada has also been named in two civil cases that allege he allowed child sexual abuse to occur at New Vrindaban. Mr. Purusha Das also denied those charges.

Susan Howard, a community activist on the Lower East Side, said she was reluctant to jump to conclusions about sexual abuse allegations that have not been proved in court. "If he came out of prison and was a known sex offender, I would be concerned because we have so many schools in the neighborhood," she said. "But I don't believe unsubstantiated allegations are enough to cause a knee-jerk response in the community."

According to Mr. Purusha Das, Mr. Bhaktipada is dedicating his life after prison to prayer, preaching and writing.

Near the end of the worship session that was filled alternately with subdued prayers and the trademark singing of "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna," Mr. Bhaktipada, who because of the lingering effects of childhood polio now uses a wheelchair, took to the microphone to answer questions from his disciples.

When a young man asked about confronting persecution, Mr. Bhaktipada told him not to worry, because true devotees exist on a "platform above good and evil." Only God can truly judge their worthiness, he said.

"If the Lord wants to kick me, he kicks me," he said. "If the Lord wants to embrace me, he embraces me."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/nyregion...bb57037f4ebb1ea