Decorum - Our dealings with others

Dear fellow devotees,

I was just looking at Kshamabuddhi's website and I noticed a post he made today about Muralidhar's discussion about Gayatri, etc. Kshamabuddhi used the word "pitbull" to describe the actions of members of this forum in response to Muralidhar's contributions.

First, I would like to say that I don't believe sectarianism should have a place on this forum. Even when people come here with opinions we don't agree with, or even abhor, I would like to see them treated with hospitality, like guests in our house. We expect them to similarly act with dignity and respect and will not hesitate to throw them out if they don't, but I am afraid there is a little truth to KB's characterization of our actions as "pitbull"-like.

Whatever Muralidhar, or for that matter Kshamabuddhi, may say about us elsewhere, if they behave with proper decorum when here, then we should treat them with dignity and respect, as is becoming for anyone who aspires to become a follower of Rupa Goswami.

No one should ever berate or attempt to diminish another person by insults. Though good-natured teasing might be permissible if used with care, we should remember that the Internet is not always a medium that allows for subtle communication, so we should be careful to excuse ourselves frequently and to actually use expressions that show we are making the effort to show respect.

The fact of the matter is this: No one can see what you have realized, but they can see how you behave. Don't think that you can condemn another group for sectarianism and then act in a way that is brazenly sectarian.

Don't think you can convert anyone with brilliant arguments unless that person is prepared by divine will to be convinced. Furthermore, it is not up to us to even think that it is necessary for people to be convinced or converted by us. Krishna and Maya are in charge of these things.

Furthermore, anyone who makes it his goal in life to follow Rupa Goswami is already our "prana." We may quibble about details, we may even be hurt by what appear to be offenses, but if anyone can sing "sri rupa manjari pada sei mora sampada", how can we do anything but embrace them and say, "We are on the same side"?

Of course, Kshamabuddhi is well known to us all as the king of pit-bulls, so he is expert in recognizing the tactics that pit-bulls use. But I doubt there is anyone here who thinks his particular style of dealings is the ideal we should emulate, even inadvertently. Let's not become what we criticize others for being.

So I appeal to everyone to remember Rupa Goswami and the Pandits who came to defeat him in Vrindavan. We don't need any "jaya patras." Our victories will come from a true depth of understanding, from extending and accepting the mercy of the Vaishnavas.

Please excuse any presumptuousness on my part,

Jagat

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Very well put, thank you.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

It's all about atmosphere. We want it to be cool here, not hot.

I do appreciate these suggestions. My academic training was in rhetoric, and one of my interests is the rhetoric among Vaishnavas--the way we discuss these things. I may end up writing about this when I get a little time. I much prefer cool discussion to hot (I think it's more likely to be productive), and I get really uncomfortable sometimes when, for example, some of the traditional members get preachy and pedantic, or when a couple of the Sarasvatas come in simply to shout down the sahajiyas. I think there's a whole lot more to Chaitanya Vaishnavism than those at either extreme usually acknowledge. I think several of you from traditional lines have pointed out that the non-Sarasvatas are not a monolith--that so many branches growing in villages and forests of Gauda, Orissa and Bengal over the last 400-odd years cannot possibly all be identical. I think there's something simialr with Sarasvatas--we don't all necessarily hate anyone who has found shelter outside our part of the family.

I also object strongly to the way Kshamabuddhi characterizes that discussion, particularly Murali's response. I think strong points were made on both sides, but I don't think Murali took a whippin', as KB asserts, and I don't think he's skulking around anywhere with his tail between his legs. I haven't posted anything there yet because I have to be careful with my time right now, and I don't look forward to provoking him further.

I agree with Jagat entirely: it's about atmosphere, about the ethos of the site, which reflects the ethos of the culture. And I think the culture of Chaitanya Vaishnavism should be something different from what we see anywhere else.

There's my nickel's worth.

Yes
a devotee is a gentleman
observes ettiquette
respectful
gentle thoughtful
and sensitive to others
at the same time learned and tactful enough to be able to present the truth using sastra reason and personal realization
Hare Krishna

My tuppence worth:

Several years ago I came across a post that really set me thinking. In it the author suggested that the aggressive and confident manner adopted by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and AC Bhaktivendanta Swami differed from that common to the tradition. I am reminded of those statements (or perhaps, my interpretation of them) when reading recent threads.

The strident, self-confident attitude and method of dialog that has been ascribed to those two powerful Vaisnavas is often criticized and seems distant from that enunciated by sastra and embodied by the archetypal Vaisnava sadhu. However this viewpoint is somewhat ironic, or, hopefully, a challenge: can someone reject or distance themselves from that methodology using the same tools and mindset that is being criticized?

I think not. So long as aggression, innuendo, a smattering of facts and an overbearing sense of self-confidence and righteousness reign--no matter the "truth" or justification--then I believe we are both acknowledging and condemning ourselves to a mode of religious existence that we do not want.

But perhaps this is what it means when the Vaisnava poet speaks of the dog of Kaliyuga or the Bhagavata describes the ocean of faults? We are condemned to a world of conflict and animosity (that seems even more prominent amongst the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu!)

I think the challenge is to rise above, not arm yourself. Einstein made the wonderful statement that "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

Excellent points, Braja.

We are engaged in a dialectic. The Gaudiya Math was created as a distinct approach to traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

We, who have drifted into traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism have done so in great part as a critical statement against Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math.

But in fact, what we are is a new, hybrid creation. Or rather, we are trying to create something new that assimilates the best of all our worlds--the raganuga tradition is first, our rationalistic modernism second.

The genius of the dialectic process is that it does not reject anything absolutely, but recognizes that personal and historical development is a constant spiral. It is a dance that is (or should be) personified in Radha and Krishna's dance of love. Their love, beauty and appreciation of each other are ever increasing, and can never catch up.

ei mata paraspara kare huDAhuDi
paraspara bADe keha mukha nAhi muDi

In this way, a competition takes place between them, in which no one acknowledges defeat, despite their constantly increasing efforts. (1.4.193)

Funny that the "never admitting defeat" really means that they are being defeated at every moment!

The further point is this: By making our point intelligently and generously (in the kindest sense of the word), we actually are doing the Gaudiya Math a great service. Just think of the unspoken influence of Ananta Das on Narayan Maharaj. Even change that does not recognize its source is still change. Eventually historians will enlighten people on its sources.

I look forward to seeing more from you on this, Babhruji. I hope that the end of term gives you time for such deep ruminations. You might even be able to get a publishable academic article out of it. Why not? If nothing else, it's the type of thing that would interest the Iskcon Communications Journal.

Besides which, I am interested in the parallels between alankara and the Western traditions of rhetoric, which may be a direction in which we could do some fruitful collaboration in the future, though not right now.

For the first, I suggest perhaps a submission as an article for the editorial section. You might find it useful to send a preliminary version for a reaction. For the latter, a new thread in the Miscellaneous discussions.

This is certainly on my list. And I have long been interested in exploring possible connections between Vedic/vaishnava rhetoric and Western appoaches. I thnk your suggestion of using this board for early responses is a great idea, considering the experience of the members. It's just a matter of organizing time, and it just might be that this should be among the items at the top of my mid-May list.

I think many people have gotten the impression that I was opening a can of whoop ass on them in some debates. That is only because they do not know me personally, because if they did they would know how non-combative I am by nature. That is the problem with cyberspace dealings - they can easily lead to false impressions of participants in the chat rooms.

Still, the whole decorum issue is paramount, if we are to set an example for the rest of the world. And - as they chanted on the streets during the '68 Democractic Convention here in Chi town: "The whole world's watching!"

Some may think I am just talking tactics here. Actually, I am talking about character development as a part of sadhana.

Yes, I note that KB seems to take that superficial view. My agreement is due to my understanding that your intention is as you state it here.

[ Gopaldas, if you register as Haridas and because of your inconsiderate posts we make you a moderated member, that does not mean that you can register again as Cit and continue the campaign. Nick deleted. If this does not stop, I will ban your range of IP addresses from even accessing the website. If you have a problem with this, contact me. - Madhava ]

OK Sparky, we know it is you again. Try to understand the joke Madhava made about this word sahaja, how funny it gets when you translate it as sahajiya. I will patiently explain then to you that neither the word sahajiya or the word prakrita sahajiya is anywhere to be found in the Gaudiya Vaishnava cannon. You are invited to find them for us if you want, and dont tell us, like Dirty Harry, that Rupa Gosvami could not foresee what corruption would take place in the upcoming Dark Old Age, because Rupa Gosvami is enlightened from within by Mahaprabhu (hrdi yasya preranaya - vande caitanya devasya). Now Mahaprabhu is Krishna and Krishna says bhavisyani ca bhutani - vedaham (B Gita 7.26). 'I know the future'. Rupa Gosvami has covered all possibilities, past present and future, and whatever was left to be explained has been patiently done by Visvanath and Jiva. If you dismiss all evidence as word jugglery then we can do the same with you and your superiors as well, so better accept shastrik evidence.

You are the one who is grossly inconsiderate by offending Srila Prabhupada.
Get a life!

Will do. Thanks for the tip.

Do you have a quote ? I tried to remember posting such a statement but alas I could not.

Well, my dear sahajiya friend Advaita prabhu, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you need to polish your crsytal ball because I am not the person who posted under the name of Gopaldas or Cit. I have not posted anything recently except under the name "Bapuji". Madhava has since "moderated" me and is refusing to post my posts. I could easily find a proxy and a new nik and email address, but I really don't want to play that game. I actually prefer that when I post something that I get credit for it, so I am not very inclined to false names and proxies.
Since my responses and replies cannot get through at Gaudiya Discussions, I have made this thread for my responses to any questions or allegations that pertain to me on the Gaudiya Discussion forums.

I do have one request. Please ask Madhava to change the name of the forums to "Prakrita Sahajiya" forums. I think that is more honest and legitimate than calling it "Gaudiya Discussions".

Still waiting for the quotes, Sparky.

Note that not a single board member practises tantra......

Anyone of our moderators can approve your posts at will. You have not even attempted to post anything for a long time, so please do not complain.

You have registered as Rasesh, Bapuji and Bizness Man, and now also as Sat, which is plenty enough for a single individual. Since you have not come forth and contacted the moderators to open a dialogue on how to improve your manners, I will also place this nick under moderation. Rest assured, your posts will be let through if you have something worthwhile to say instead of the usual flame stuff.



And I could make all new sign-ups admin-reviewable before they activate, and I could make it a rule that each new member must introduce themselves to the moderators before they are allowed to post, if it comes down to that.



Your posts will get through if they are not the usual inflammatory stuff you post to get your kicks. You have now your own forum where you can rant and rave about the sahajiyas all you like. We do not really need that there.



Since you have next to no regard for the people posting in these forums, why do you bother haunting us? Rather follow your guru's orders and don't associate with prakrita-sahajiyas, if that's what you think we are.

I am in complete agreement with everything in Madhava's post. Kshamabuddhi should be allowed to post here only under the name Kshamabuddhi.

If at all.....