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Preaching, At Any Cost? -

Openmind - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:59:14 +0530
Some general arguments one can hear:

Bhaktivedanta Swami was often harsh but he did this for the sake of preaching, and without his efforts nobody would know about Krishna in the West.

Yes, this is true. Krishna-bhakti became known all over the world. Most people - when hearing about Hare Krishnas - immediately associates KC with the scandals, with paedo-gurus, gay-gurus, thief-gurus and gangster-gurus. In my country people generally say "Yes, I know the Hare Krishnas, they are like hookers, stopping people on the street and trying to take their money." I know a lady living in the US who divorced from her husband. Their daughter was given to the husband simply because the lady was a member of Iskcon. Just the fact that she associated with that organization was enough for the court to decide that their child should not be given to her. These are only some examples, all of us could fill volumes with stories like that. So the point I wanted to make is: yes, it was the desire of Baktivinod Thakur that bhakti gets to the West. True. But would Baktivinod Thakur be happy to know what people think of the devotees of his beloved Lord nowadays? Yes, preaching is fine, but at any cost? Can we sacrifice the purity, the tradition, the dignity of our faith, everything for the sake of mindlessly trying to convert the whole world into Gaudiya Vaishnavas? After listening to the teachings of Mahaprabhu, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya accepted bhakti, and Mahaprabhu started to dance in joy: "Now my life has become successful, I could convert one person to bhakti." So where the idea of "THINK BIG" comes from? Definitely not from Mahaprabhu. If they wanted, the Goswamis or their disciples could also have done "BIG". There were extremely rich kings in India at that time, any of the Goswamis could have collected great amounts of money in the name of yukta-vairagya, build BIG temples, attract thousands of disciples. Why did they not do that? They could have sit on carts and do BIG preaching tours all across India, collecting life-members or distributing palm-leaves with the Mahamantra on it. Why did they never do that? Were they not compassionate perhaps? I don't think so... They definitely placed purity and simplicity in the first place, but nowadays we see just the opposite.

Also, another important point is that before teaching others one has to be qualified, this is equally true in the material and the spiritual dimension. We can see what is the result of sending fanatical neophytes who perhaps never even read the whole Gita to the streets to "preach" and "save karmis".
Madhava - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:44:06 +0530
I thought of mentioning this in the other thread about the brahmin-issue and various other reforms aimed at looking respectable, but I'll just say it here: with the Western version, it's all gone ass backwards. They look strange, they act strange, they think strange...

As for the "without him, nobody would know..." idea, the only thing we can say is that without him, most of the folks in 1965 wouldn't have known of the Gaudiya tradition on that scale. Who can say what would have happened in 1986 or 2002, had Bhaktivedanta not gone to West in 1965?

I personally do not present myself as being a follower of the Hare Krishna tradition when asked. Heck, they won't even let me into their local temple.
Anand - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:18:10 +0530
I personally do not present myself as being a follower of the Hare Krishna tradition when asked. Heck, they won't even let me into their local temple.

Except that, sometimes, the temple comes to you, right?
Openmind - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:35:42 +0530
Deep down in almost every Iskcon members' minds the thought of "we are the only bonafide followers, we are the Rupanugas" is planted. So many false promises are made, so many lies... I remember some guru telling the devotees that book-distributors do not have to worry about whether they can remember Krishna at the time of death, Caitanya Mahaprabhu will personally appear and whisper the Holy name in their ears. Of course this is a prerogative of book-distributors. Harikesh ex-Vishnupad said that each and every book we sell is a brick in the Mayapur Project. Also he said that without Iskcon selling books the whole Scandinavia would have already been under water. In the begining of the 90's a visiting guru in Hungary prophesized a great war for next year, saying that he had seen in a vision that camels would be drinking from the river Danube, referring to a Muslim invasion over Europe. Why has it not happened? You must know the answer by now: because the devotees distributed books. And presently these guys represent Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the West, claiming to be the only bona fide followers of the Goswamis' line. So I don't exactly know what the desire and the dream of Srila Bhaktivedanta Thakur was, but definitely not this.
Madhava - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:03:11 +0530
QUOTE(Anand @ Mar 31 2004, 12:48 PM)
I personally do not present myself as being a follower of the Hare Krishna tradition when asked. Heck, they won't even let me into their local temple.

Except that, sometimes, the temple comes to you, right?

Not the saffron mafia. cool.gif

I do keep in touch with some people from the congregation, in a very informal way. I try my level best to steer clear of the institutional quibble.
Subal - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:03:11 +0530
The last time I visited an ISKCON temple was between 1988 & 1991. I visited the Berkeley, CA temple. It seemed like a museum. Nothing had changed. It seemed like they were acting out roles in a period drama. Why not try to adapt the teachings and lifestyle to 21st century Western culture. Why do we need to act like 19th century Indian brahmins? Why not be post-modern Westerners? Adapt and grow.
Anand - Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:53:19 +0530
Not the saffron mafia.

Yeah, colors change according to the occasion.
Haridas - Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:59:21 +0530
OK OK let's get real now
no more maya
no more kali yuga madness
or saffron mafia

we'll all do our bhajana
and relish krishna prema
Madhava - Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:04:50 +0530
I am already relishing... AOWWWWWW..... w00t.gif

Join the rapture.
Haridas - Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:22:26 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Mar 31 2004, 07:34 PM)
I am already relishing... AOWWWWWW.....  w00t.gif

Join the rapture.

So what's the scam?
just lies of ISKCON world dominance'Taking over the world'
and how we hate those meat-eating karmis
so we'll take their money
and give it to SRi Sri Radha Krishna
But then the faggot gurus got hold of the'laksmi' for jet set travel crying.gif

And the ladies of collection
no longer walk straight after doing the pick of flowers,buttons and flowers unsure.gif
and the laksmi is wasted on court cases to'defend' the movement
O how could those ISKCON members have been so salacious-dirty- in their dealings
amongst themslves and others
taking young men and women'boys and girls'
to go out on scamkirtana
collecting money ohmy.gif
which 99% went in the end to fund cult case causes
This is the history of ISKCON
sealed in the blood and sweat
of dysfunctional,pschotic humans of demonic natures!
O dear Lord please save us from ourselves!
Can we become more and more debased,
driven for power over others,
money for domination,
and the prestige of cult of freaks and psychos?
'ISKCON with all thy faults I love thee'
'ISKCON in the spiritual world'
Madhava - Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:27:05 +0530
I see you are a full-blown rasik.
Haridas - Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:26:29 +0530
International Society for Keeping Kids Off Narcotics

O the Karma now for every lie,cheating and misrepresentation
what is going to happen to all those forlorn souls who participated in these acts of inhumanity agaist man?
All these vile and wicked acts commited in the name of Guru and Gouranga!

Sould'nt these people be brougt to book and stand trail for Crimes agaist Humanity

Maybe a special court at the International War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague
alongside Slobo and company. blink.gif
Madhava - Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:33:52 +0530
That's about enough of that, don't you think?