Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur On Siddha Pranali -

I was "shocked" to read the following passages in Srila Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani (Ch. 15):

QUOTE

Sadhana of the Rasa
The sadhana (practice) of rasa and the siddhi (perfection) lie very close together. Very soon, by sadhana of the rasa, one will attain ones spiritual body. By the mercy of Radha one receives the mercy of Krsna, and thus quickly ones material body will dissolve and one will attain pure spiritual body in Vraja.
There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna. Cultivating the loving relation in conjugal rasa (srngara rasa), called the ujjvala rasa, is the highest practice, by which one will experience full Krsna prema.
In order to perfect the experience in conjugal rasa one must accept a body of a gopi. A jiva thinking himself a male cannot enter the srngara rasa. To receive a spiritual body in conjugal rasa one must internally cultivate eleven specific items of ones identity: ones relationship, ones age, name, form membership in a particular group (yutha), dress, ones order, service, highest aspiration and palya dasa bhava.
These items are perfected through practice in five stages: sravana dasa, varana dasa, smarana dasa, apana dasa and sampati dasa.
Sravana Dasa, the stage of hearing
Hearing the pastimes of Krsna, one develops an attraction for them. One then approaches a guru who has realized Krsna’s eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. From the guru, the devotee hears (sravana) the intricacies of the rasas (bhava tattva), which consists of the pastimes and the eleven elements of identity. On hearing the eight fold pastimes, the person will develop eagerness and inquire from the guru how to enter into those pastimes.
Varana Dasa, the stage of accepting
The guru, after perceiving the nature of the person, will then describe to him the eleven elements of his identity. He will give him his name, form, qualities and service, and his part in the pastimes, and tell him to enter into the pastimes.
If the disciple finds that his natural taste coincides with this identity, he should approach the guru and inform him that it suits him. He will then vow to cultivate that identity as his life and soul.

If I am not mistaken, this is the precise description of Siddha-pranali process. So I only have one question now: how can all those devotees who consider themselves strict followers of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, state that Siddha-pranali is bogus? Would Srila Bhaktivinod describe any bogus process in his very important book on the Holy Name?

Now I am getting to understand why not only the Goswamis' books are considered to be forbidden to read, but according to many devotees, we should even avoid Bhaktivinoda's books, reading only those written by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad...

Go figure... This is not the only instance where he speaks of the issue. You may find this thread interesting.

QUOTE(Openmind @ Mar 29 2004, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE

Sadhana of the Rasa
Hearing the pastimes of Krsna, one develops an attraction for them. One then approaches a guru who has realized Krsna’s eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. From the guru, the devotee hears (sravana) the intricacies of the rasas (bhava tattva), which consists of the pastimes and the eleven elements of identity. On hearing the eight fold pastimes, the person will develop eagerness and inquire from the guru how to enter into those pastimes.
Varana Dasa, the stage of accepting
The guru, after perceiving the nature of the person, will then describe to him the eleven elements of his identity. He will give him his name, form, qualities and service, and his part in the pastimes, and tell him to enter into the pastimes.
If the disciple finds that his natural taste coincides with this identity, he should approach the guru and inform him that it suits him. He will then vow to cultivate that identity as his life and soul.

Now I am getting to understand why not only the Goswamis' books are considered to be forbidden to read, but according to many devotees, we should even avoid Bhaktivinoda's books, reading only those written by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad...

Yes. This is the exact process that took place between Lalita Prasad Thakur and I in 1974. You are also quite right about being discouraged to read Bhaktivinoda's books even when I was a senior disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami while he was still alive. I approached Bhaktivedanta along with Dr. Kapoor asking to receive ekadasa bhava and was told we don't do that. No one was willing to go over Bhaktivedanta's head to give me this information. I finally prevailed upon Lalita Prasad and was able to recieve his mercy since there was no where else I could get it. He offered to teach Bhaktivedanta these things, but he was not interested.

We were given a very narrow view of Krishna consciousness and discouraged from pursuing higher states of consciousness so that the focus could remain on book distribution, fund raising and starting/building temples. I became a disciple of Bhaktivedanta in order to become Krishna conscious. I left him and ISKCON because my efforts to do that were constantly thwarted. I still respect him as my diksha guru, but I had to start thinking for myself and making decisions on my own. If the only service of mine that was appreciated was fundraising, administration, politics and construction management, I did not need to be a sannyasi.

I still long to engage in siddha pranali, but I admitedly am limited by my engagement in the world. At least now I am married and more grounded and better able to deal with the world than I was as a sannyasi.

Jai Radhe,
Subal

In a 1975 conversation, a couple of disciples asked Srila Prabhupada about the stricture against reading the books of the goswamis, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and other previous acharyas. His response was that such an idea was a misunderstanding. Rather, he said, "No, you should read. . . . We are following the previous acharyas."

When I was a brahmachari in Hawaii in the early '70s, Goursundar was working on translating Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma with Srila Prabhupada's knowledge and consent. Srila Prabhupada felt it was an important project. In 1973, I was present in a private conversation with Srila Prabhupada where this was discussed. He expressed some surprise that Goursundar had gone to England to get a copy from the Gaudiya Math there. Prabhupada smiled and remarked, "He could ask me; I can get very easily."

The sense I get is that he tried, as he mentioned to one of his Godbrothers, to fence our tender creepers early on, with the understanding that the more mature creeper must necessarily overgrow the fence. He did decline to discuss Rasa-lila publicly, explaining that even Mahaprabhu discussed these things only in very close company, which did not include even Nityananda Prabhu, Gadadhara, etc. Nevertheless, his Chaitanya-charitamrita purports pull few punches. And perhaps the first book he wrote as a sannyasi, [/I]In Searchof the Ultimate Goal of Life[I], presents Ramananda-samvada. This book has been published by Narasingha Maharaja.

QUOTE

There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna.

this was also said above.

higher stages then that, hmmmm..wonder what that could be ?

I believe he refers to the advanced stages of prema, beginning with sneha, mAna, praNAya and so forth.

QUOTE

I believe he refers to the advanced stages of prema, beginning with sneha, mAna, praNAya and so forth.

He goes into those ideas quite alot using words, so since He says
that there is a higher reality or stage that He doesn't describe
it can't be those things, the higher stage would have to be something he has
NEVER described according to his description of it.

QUOTE

There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna.

Even when it comes to the elementary stages of prema, all verbal descriptions fall short of complete. They must be realized, an intellectual understanding will not do complete justice to the matter.

At any rate, if there is something beyond madanakhya-mahabhava that cannot be described in words, what good will it do if we try with words to discuss how it might be described?

He specifically says

QUOTE

The sadhana (practice) of rasa and the siddhi (perfection) lie very close together. Very soon, by sadhana of the rasa, one will attain ones spiritual body. By the mercy of Radha one receives the mercy of Krsna, and thus quickly ones material body will dissolve and one will attain pure spiritual body in Vraja.
There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna. Cultivating the loving relation in conjugal rasa (srngara rasa), called the ujjvala rasa, is the highest practice, by which one will experience full Krsna prema.

I think he is saying that there is a higher stage of realization then what one will experience by the highest practice of cultivating srngara rasa, that higher reality He says cannot be described by mere words but will be revealed by Krsna's mercy, much like words cannot give justice to the experience of tasting food, in the same way He is saying maybe that there is an altogether higher reality that is beyond these things He is going to describe but when Krsna desires then you will have that revealed to you.

In Jaiva Dharma He did the same thing as well, After going through all of the instructions about manjaris and so on at the very end we get this

QUOTE

Vijaya-kumara: When one attains vastu-siddhi, in what way will he see Lord Krishna's name, form, qualities, pastimes and abode?

Gosvami: I cannot answer. When I myself attain vastu-siddhi, I will be able to see and tell. When you attain sampatti-siddhi you will certainly be able to understand. You will understand without any struggle. And why not? You will see it all before your eyes. You will not need to ask questions.

Goswami who has been lecturing all about manjari bhava all of a sudden when asked about the end result is left saying He cannot say, He hasn't yet come to that stage of knowing just what the actual reality of Krsna lila is, this is significant leaving us to ponder that there is a higher reality that is not described, Bhaktivinoda purposefully interjects this caveat at the very end of Jaiva Dharma and he eludes to the same thing in the previous verse from Harinam Cintamani.

The reason is that vastu-siddhi means actually being in a spiritual body with Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan. Since you can't do that while you are still in this body, you cannot speak of what it is like.

If you claim to have some esoteric knowledge of what vastu-siddhi is like, this means that you must have actually died and gone to heaven. That's easier to believe in this world of the Internet, where you might just well be a ghost infiltrating cyberspace, without any need for a gross body to type on a keyboard anywhere.

QUOTE

The reason is that vastu-siddhi means actually being in a spiritual body with Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan. Since you can't do that while you are still in this body, you cannot speak of what it is like.

You sure 'bout that ji ? got some reference to back that up ?
I know of many to refute that vision.

QUOTE

If you claim to have some esoteric knowledge of what vastu-siddhi is like, this means that you must have actually died and gone to heaven. That's easier to believe in this world of the Internet, where you might just well be a ghost infiltrating cyberspace, without any need for a gross body to type on a keyboard anywhere.

" Still, until his linga-sarira (subtle material body) is at last dissolved, he does not attain sampatti-dasa (the greatest good fortune) and he does not see Krishna at every moment. When he attains bhavapana-dasa, the pure soul has complete control over his gross and subtle material bodies. However, only when he attains Lord Krishna's complete and full mercy will the soul attain the final spiritual goal, where the soul completely breaks of all relationship with the material world of five elements. Bhavapana-dasa is also called 'svarupa-siddhi', and sampatti-dasa is also called 'vastu-siddhi'."

Here Bhaktivinoda says that one needs to be free from the subtle material body i.e. ahankara etc, at that point one attains sampatti or vastu siddhi, no need to die and go to heaven, when the false conceptions or linga sarira are dispelled then that is consiered to be the death of the sheath of ignorance, then Krsna appears everywhere at all time and you have the full reality revealed.

For heaven's sake, those margins!

QUOTE

However, only when he attains Lord Krishna's complete and full mercy will the soul attain the final spiritual goal, where the soul completely breaks of all relationship with the material world of five elements. Bhavapana-dasa is also called 'svarupa-siddhi', and sampatti-dasa is also called 'vastu-siddhi'."

The world of 5 elements is an illusion, in truth all is Krsna's energy, when free from all illusions created by the subtle material body(mind) the world of 5 elements disappears and is replaced by the world of Krsna being everything everywhere at all times, He doesn't say die, He says breaks off relations with the material world, this is a reality that is given to you by the mercy of Krsna, the world of 5 elements becomes revealed for what it really is; non different from Krsna, at that stage Krsna reveals the truth of reality i.e matter is really a transformation of Himself and all "matter"is controlled and can be utilized to relate directly to you.

[ Margins fixed - Mod. ]

This is from Jagat from audarya posting of Harinam Cintamani

QUOTE

43. Verse 97
Apane svarUpa-siddhi, vastu-siddhi liGga-bhaGge
Apane svarUpa-siddhi labhe bhAgyavAn
liGga-bhaGge vastu-siddhi sampatti vidhAna

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Stage of Attainment One Regains His Original Spiritual Form and Identity, and His Subtle Material Body Is Broken
97. "In the stage of attainment a fortunate soul regains his original spiritual form and identity, and his subtle material body is broken. He attains great good fortune. (38)
NOTE:
(38) When one worships and worships in this way, Lord Krishna personally reveals Himself. That is inevitable. By one’s own desire the gross and subtle material bodies become destroyed. The gross body made of five elements falls away and the subtle material body of material mind, intelligence and false-ego also falls away. Then the soul’s original pure spiritual form is manifested and the soul serves the divine couple in the spiritual world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The devotee’s constant nama-bhajana inevitably brings about a face to face meeting with Lord Shyamasundar. By the Lord’s merciful will, all trace of the devotee’s subtle body of mind, intelligence and false ego are extinguished with the demise of the gross body of five elements. Thus he enters the sampati dasa stage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the time of appropriation on attains identity perfection; with the disintegration of the subtle body, one attains concrete perfection
In the appropriation stage, the fortunate soul attains identity perfection;
when the subtle body disintegrates, concrete perfection and full possession. (41)
(41) By worshiping the Holy Name in this way, the devotee inevitably meets Lord Krishna face to face. Then, when his gross body suddenly dies by the Lord’s will, the subtle material body is also destroyed. In other words, with the death of the gross body made of five elements, the subtle material body of mind, intelligence and false ego also falls away. At this point, the soul’s pure spiritual form is manifested without any coverings and she can serve the Divine Couple in the spiritual world. “Identity perfection” = svarUpa-siddhi; “concrete perfection” = vastu-siddhi; “full possession” = sampatti-dazA.

Are these all translations of one verse and note by Bhaktivinoda ? or are there other comments by others as well ?

The verse itself only mentions destruction of the subtle body, the notes say various things,

QUOTE

By one’s own desire the gross and subtle material bodies become destroyed.

QUOTE

By the Lord’s merciful will, all trace of the devotee’s subtle body of mind, intelligence and false ego are extinguished with the demise of the gross body of five elements.

QUOTE

Then, when his gross body suddenly dies by the Lord’s will, the subtle material body is also destroyed. In other words, with the death of the gross body made of five elements, the subtle material body of mind, intelligence and false ego also falls away.

So here we have different comments, are they all supposed to be
from the same notes of Bhaktivinoda ?
If so why the contradictory statements of each version ?

My version would be that with the destruction of the subtle body; or in other words
when we stop identifying our selves with our minds and realize the mind is
in reality Krsna then "our" subtle body is destroyed, all that will be left
is Krsna and at that stage we also stop identifying the material energy as material
and that illusion is destroyed as well, and all that remains is Krsna, both the subtle
and material "bodies" are destroyed by knowledge, We then exist in the spiritual
world and exist with Radha Krsna here and now, God is everything and reveals
that reality when we "destroy" the material reality or our material vision of reality.

So the material body dies but that doesn't mean that we have to leave our present
body, rather we realize that God is everything and everywhere, the material
world and the spiritual world are mental concepts of reality, when we have
pure consciousness full in knowledge then the "material" world can become
the spiritual world and our material body becomes a spiritual body here and now,
Krsna is always everywhere and can manifest anything anytime to anyone
in any way, so meeting Radha Krsna face to face can happen at any time,
you don't have to leave your body.

I was comparing three different translations side by side. That explains the different versions.

It may be clearer HERE.

The explanation of that is found on the first page. The verse you are looking at is on the fourth page.

I have attached a file containing the HNC glossary, which discusses some of Bhaktivinoda Thakur's terminology in greater detail, with reference to some of his other writings.

Attachment: HNC_Appendix_3_Glossary_2002_05_15__Jagat_.doc

QUOTE(Openmind @ Mar 29 2004, 06:07 AM)

I was "shocked" to read the following passages in Srila Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani (Ch. 15):

QUOTE

Sadhana of the Rasa
The sadhana (practice) of rasa and the siddhi (perfection) lie very close together. Very soon, by sadhana of the rasa, one will attain ones spiritual body. By the mercy of Radha one receives the mercy of Krsna, and thus quickly ones material body will dissolve and one will attain pure spiritual body in Vraja.
There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna. Cultivating the loving relation in conjugal rasa (srngara rasa), called the ujjvala rasa, is the highest practice, by which one will experience full Krsna prema.
In order to perfect the experience in conjugal rasa one must accept a body of a gopi. A jiva thinking himself a male cannot enter the srngara rasa. To receive a spiritual body in conjugal rasa one must internally cultivate eleven specific items of ones identity: ones relationship, ones age, name, form membership in a particular group (yutha), dress, ones order, service, highest aspiration and palya dasa bhava.
These items are perfected through practice in five stages: sravana dasa, varana dasa, smarana dasa, apana dasa and sampati dasa.
Sravana Dasa, the stage of hearing
Hearing the pastimes of Krsna, one develops an attraction for them. One then approaches a guru who has realized Krsna’s eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. From the guru, the devotee hears (sravana) the intricacies of the rasas (bhava tattva), which consists of the pastimes and the eleven elements of identity. On hearing the eight fold pastimes, the person will develop eagerness and inquire from the guru how to enter into those pastimes.
Varana Dasa, the stage of accepting
The guru, after perceiving the nature of the person, will then describe to him the eleven elements of his identity. He will give him his name, form, qualities and service, and his part in the pastimes, and tell him to enter into the pastimes.
If the disciple finds that his natural taste coincides with this identity, he should approach the guru and inform him that it suits him. He will then vow to cultivate that identity as his life and soul.

If I am not mistaken, this is the precise description of Siddha-pranali process. So I only have one question now: how can all those devotees who consider themselves strict followers of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, state that Siddha-pranali is bogus? Would Srila Bhaktivinod describe any bogus process in his very important book on the Holy Name?

Now I am getting to understand why not only the Goswamis' books are considered to be forbidden to read, but according to many devotees, we should even avoid Bhaktivinoda's books, reading only those written by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad...

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Can you link me to the translation of Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani that you read this in. The one that I have is different. Thanks!

Aspiring to be a servant of the vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

See link in my previous post.

My copy says:

QUOTE

The devotee who is inclined to cultivate the conjugal rasa must accept the form of a gopi under the guidance of a superior vrajagopi. One can become a gopi when eleven transcendental sentiments adorn the heart. They are: 1) sambandha (relationship), 2) vayasa (age), 3) nama (name), 4) rupa (form), 5) yutha-pravesa (entrance into a group), 6) vesa (attire), 7) ajna (instructions), 8) vasasthana (place of residence), 9) seva (service), 10) parakastha (excellence), 11) palyadasi-bhava (the mood of a kept maidservant).

Five stages of consciousness are ascended in bhavasadhana

The cultivation of these eleven gopi sentiments develops through five stages. They are: 1) sravana-dasa (the stage of hearing), 2) varana-dasa (the stage of acceptance), 3) smarana-dasa (the stage of remembering), 4) apana-dasa (stage of application), and 5) sampati-dasa (stage of inheritance). Srila Ramananda Raya says, 'One who is attracted by the ecstatic love of the gopis does not care about the regulative principles of Vedic life or popular opinion. Rather, he completely surrenders unto Krsna and renders service unto Him.' 'In this liberated stage the devotee is attracted by one of the five humors (rasas) in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As he continues to serve the Lord in that mood, he attains a spiritual body to serve Krsna in Goloka Vrindavan.' (Sri Caitanyacaritamrita, Madhya 8.220, 8.222) So saying, Srila Ramananda Raya instructs us to first attain the form and mood of a vraja gopi in order to obtain service in the conjugal relationship.