Serving Radha As Hladini - Split from the "What is gained..." thread

Dear Dirty Hari: I request you once again to edit your posts to make them esthetically more agreeable to everyone. I appreciate your contributions, but don't see why the edges have to be ragged, etc., as pointed out to you before. You can also kindly put spaces AFTER commas, not before. Try to break your sentences properly. I don't want to cramp your style, but to enhance our appreciation of your ideas.

I guess I fall into a different category then the two "sides" mentioned in this thread. I believe both camps to have fallen into a quagmire of misinformation due to seeing Gaudiya siddhanta improperly, leading to a belief in a form of polytheism and therefore focusing on the wrong thing altogether while missing the central tenet of Sri Gaurangas message.

To me, Radha Dasyam, the message of Sri Rupa is misunderstood by both camps to mean serving Radha in Her service to Krsna like a helper or gofer or something along that line of thought. My vision is completely different: I see Radha Dasyam in terms of Radha being Hladini Sakti or the form Krsna takes for pleasure, the potency that serves Krsna's desire for pleasure is Krsna as Radha, service to Krsna is through hladini or Radha and serving Her desire is serving Krsna.

I see differently than those who see Radha as serving Krsna directly in Rasa. My understanding is that those descriptions made by empowered souls are written in an esoteric manner and have a hidden inner meaning. Radha serves Krsna because she is Krsna and Krsna enjoys through Her, serving Radha in Her service to Krsna means enhancing Radha's enjoyment, not as a friend but as a lover.

Radha and Krsna are one and the same. The real rasa is between God and jiva,not between God in one form and God in another.

"Because Sri Sri Radha Krsna are not different and because Sri Krsna is the master of all potencies, therefore Sri Radha is also the master and source of all potencies. He is by nature full of sweetness and bliss, free from the three modes, and eternally manifest beyond the material nature. Because Radha is not different from Him, so is She also. It is said that within the Lord are all potencies, the modes and the material nature."

Sri Krsna-bhakti-ratna-prakasa ,Srila Raghava Goswami

[The topic probably belongs in another thread, IMO]

Can you give a specific example of what this service would entail?

Besides general statements regarding hladini, potencies, tattvas, etc., do you have any references for any acaryas practicing this mood, i.e. specific pastimes, meditations, etc.?

DH, is there a contradiction between the two positions you present, one of serving Radha and assisting Her in Her service to Krishna as a maidservant, and the other of serving Her as the embodiment of hladini? They both co-exist in the same individual. There is no need to entertain a dualistic conception of these two aspects.

At any rate, this would be better off explored in a separate thread.

madhava- I'm not sure what you mean.




The service is that Radha is hladini sakti. She is Krsna and She serves Krsna's desire for pleasure. Radha Dasyam means satisfying Her desire. Krsna and Radha are one and the same. Rasa between them cannot therefore be satisfying anymore then you having rasa with your mirror image. So the inner meaning of Mahaprabhu's lila is showing that truth. Krsna and Radha are combined in Sri Gauranga, but He is showing that Radha is the inner identity, the dominant mood of the supreme person.

So really it is the inner truth that is enjoyable by God, the external truth is the descriptions of lila in Vraja. The internal truth is what Godhead is experiencing as a Real rasa in that or any lila, the external lila of Vraja has Radha and Gopis engaging in amorous pastimes with Krsna and the Gopas, the internal truth is that Radha is the enjoying aspect of Radha Krsna and they are also the exact same
person. The real Rasa for Her is not with Her mirror image as Krsna, but with Jivas. This is simple logic but we miss the point when we see the external lila as all in all.

Madhurya rasa is the highest rasa with Radha or Her expansions the gopis, Goddess avatars like Draupadi, Parvati, etc.

Can you be more specific as to what it means to serve Radha as a lover? What activities would such a servitor perform? (I understand the point you are making in regard to hladini/same person, etc., but have not seen you present what this means in practice.)

Is there anyone else in history who, in your view, has understood and practiced this mood?

Well that should be self evident.



I am assuming all who have the mercy of Sri Radha,
and none else.

From "Das Mula"

The Ten Maxims of Sri Krishna Caitanya
Sri Dasamula-niryas

by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura

"Enjoyment and appreciation of this relationship can be experienced only through rendering service to any associates of Sri Radha-Krsna considering oneself to be submissively protected, while staying at Vrajadham.

Lord Sri Krsna is eternally full of knowledge (saccit) in His constitutional form, and the knowledge of eternal bliss non-different from Him is - Srimati Radhika. The confidantes (sakhis) of all-blissful Radhika pertain to a particular mood of Herself, and accordingly, they comprise of an embodiment of array. In as much as those confidantes are the embodiment of any array under the superior energy, they are also the manifestation of the constitutional form of superior energy.

When the requirement of love for Krsna is fulfilled and the living entity is purified, he is then considered to be one among the valets of those confidantes and starts enjoying eternal blissful existence, remaining ever-charged with the pleasure of offer ing service to Radha Krsna, which state of existence is the highest requirement of all living entities. This is really an amazing mood of the knowledge of eternal absolute truth.

There is no existence of such an amazingly blissful mood in the state of liberation consequent to the annihilation of indiscriminatory Brahman.

As propounded by Sri Rupa Goswami, thus - 'adau srddha tatah sadhusanga'tha bhajanakriya, tato'anartha nivrttih syattato nistha rucistatah; athasaktistato bhabastatah premabhyndancati; sadhakanamayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah syaddrdheyam ratih premnaprodyan snehah kramadayam; syaninanah pranayo rago'anurago bhava ityapi; vijamiksuh sa ca rasah sa gudah khanda eva sah; sa sarkara sita sa ca sa yatha syat sitotpala'.

In the first stage, there should be respect, then an association with the saintly persons should develop out of that respect; then the processes of worshiping will start inspired by the association of the saintly persons; then there will be gradual elimi nation of various unhappy occurrences (anartha) as a result of devotional processes of worshiping; when a higher taste and inclination for leading a spiritual life will develop from the elimination of unhappy occurrences, resulting into a mood of ecstasy, which will ultimately give rise to the awakening of divine love. The other name of divine love is erotic sentiment which becomes crystallised (rati) gradually and is turned into parental affection, dignity, amorous love, transcendental mellow, attraction and a heightened mood in the final stage. This process of the development of spiritual love may very well be compared to the process of preparing sugarcane into its juice, then turning it into molasses, then into slices of candy and to sugar, and finally into alcohol and sweetmeats of various tastes of the highest degree. "

Are you are essentially admitting that the only evidence of this mood can be found by interpreting texts, read in translation, that describe points regarding tattva and general philosophy?

I really don't understand how the quote from Das Mula furthers your argument, in any case. For instance:



That statement seems clear from the common Gaudiya understanding but do you take the "rendering service to any associates" to mean that not only can Radha be served by becoming her lover, but that the same holds true for any of Radha Krishna's associates (based on the logic that they are her expansions)?

Not sure how "submissively protected" fits into the concept either.

Nor the later statement of remaining ever-charged with pleasure by serving Radha-Krishna (i.e. both). Do you take it that Krishna is served by someone intimately enjoying with Radha?

I agree with Braj that Dirty Hari is still not being entirely clear.

DH, if you are arguing for the classical Sahajiya position, I would welcome you to make it with all forthrightness. I think there are some very persuasive points to be made and am waiting for someone to make them.

It is clear that there is a great stigma attached to such opinions in both "orthodox" and Gaudiya Math circles, such that one who holds them would hesitate to express them openly.

I suspect that there are more people out there who feel that Radha and Krishna's metaphorical meaning is more important than any reification of their myth, that their loves validate human erotic love, and that human love of all kinds is a vehicle to the Divine.

Whether or not this trumps or is amenable to the more customary understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta or not is a very important area that needs to be explored.

I'm just stating my own experience not the sahajiya or tantric position
of seeing yourself and your lover as Radha Krsna or Siva Sakti.

My views are not based on those traditions at all,those are based on imitation to experience some form of transcendence,that is not what I am saying at all.

All I am saying is that real rasa in the highest reality is not between Radha and Krsna or Krsna and the gopis,it is between Radha and jivas.

Radha is the enjoying aspect of Radha Krsna,the gopis are Her expansions
as are countless other goddess's,serving them or under them is understood
for it's true meaning when and if it is the desire of Radha.

Understanding and entering into that reality is up to Her.

"Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise.

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach. "

Bhaktivinode Thakura


from the Narada-pancaratra, Radha-sahasra-nama


sridamasya sakhi dama-
damini dama-dharini
kailasini kesini ca
harid-ambara-dharini
-

She is Sridama's friend (sridamasya sakhi). She is glorious (dama-damini and dama-dharini). She is Parvati (kailasini). She has beautiful hair (kesini). She wears blue garments (harid-ambara-dharini).


tatharjuna-sakhi bhaumi
bhaimi bhima-kulodvaha
bhuvana mohana ksina
panasakta-tara tatha
-

She is Arjuna's friend (arjuna-sakhi), a resident of the earth (bhaumi), very exalted (bhaimi), born in an exalted family (bhima-kulodvaha), a resident of the material worlds (bhuvana), charming (mohana), slender (ksina), and fond of betelnuts (panasakta-tara).


vatsala kausala kala
karunarnava-rupini
svarga-laksmir bhumi-
laksmir draupadi pandava-priya
-

She is affectionate (vatsala), expert (kausala), beautiful (kala), and an ocean of mercy (karunarnava-rupini). She is heavenly opulence (svarga-laksmi) and earthly opulence (bhumi-laksmi). She is Draupadi (draupadi), who is dear to the Pandavas (pandava-priya).


hari-bhavana-sila ca
hari-tosana-tat-para
hari-prana hara-prana
siva-prana sivanvita
-

She meditates on Lord Hari (hari-bhavana-sila), and is dedicated to pleasing Lord Hari (hari-tosana-tat-para). She is Lord Hari's life and soul (hari-prana), Lord Siva's life and soul (hara-prana and siva-prana), and Lord Siva's companion (sivanvita).

anviksiki sastra-rupa
sastra-siddhanta-karini
nagendra naga-mata ca
krida-kautuka-rupini
-

She is the science of logic (anviksiki), the Vedas personified (sastra-rupa), the teacher of the Vedas' final conclusion (sastra-siddhanta-karini, the beloved of Lord Sesa (nagendra), the mother of the snakes (naga-mata) and playful and happy (krida-kautuka-rupini).


sitala savala hela
lila lavanya-mangala
vidyarthini vidyamana
vidya vidya-svarupini
-

She is pleasingly cool (sitala). She has a great variety of virtues (savala). She is happiness (hela) and playfulness (lila). She is beautiful and auspicious (lavanya-mangala). She is an earnest student (vidyarthini). She is known by the devotees (vidyamana). She is knowledge personified (vidya and vidya-svarupini).

krpanvita guna gaunya
gunatita-phala-prada
kusmanda-bhuta-vetala-
nasini saradanvita
-

She is merciful (krpanvita), virtuous (guna), and the most important (gaunya). She gives a result that is beyond the three modes of material nature (gunatita-phala-prada). She kills the kusmandas, bhutas, and vetalas (kusmanda-bhuta-vetala-nasini). She is glorious like autumn (saradanvita).


yaga-yoga-hara bhukti-
mukti-datri hiranya-da
kapala-malini devi
dhama-rupiny apurva-da
-

She gives the results of Vedic sacrififces (yaga-yoga-hara). She gives sense gratification and liberation (bhukti-mukti-datri). She gives gold (hiranya-da). As Durga-devi, She wears a garland of skulls (kapala-malini). She is a goddess (devi). Her form is splendid and glorious (dhama-rupini). She gives what has never been given before (apurva-da).

kama-prakasika kaminy
animady-asta-siddhi-da
yamini yamini-natha-
vadana yaminisvari
-

She is an amorous girl (kama-prakasika and kamini). She grants the eight mystic perfections, beginning with anima (animady-asta-siddhi-da). She is in control of Her senses (yamini) and She is the leader of all restrained, self-controlled girls (yamini-natha-vadana and yaminisvari).


sakalepsita-datri ca
saci sadhvi arundhati
pati-vrata pati-prana
pati-vakya-vinodini
asesa-sadhani kalpa-
vasini kalpa-rupini
-

She fulfills all desires (sakalepsita-datri). She is Saci (saci). She is saintly (sadhvi). She is Arundhati (arundhati). She is faithful to Her husband (pati-vrata). Her husband is Her very life (pati-prana). She delights in Her husband's words (pati-vakya-vinodini). She has the power to do anything (asesa-sadhani). All Her desires are automatically fulfilled (kalpa-vasini and kalpa-rupini).


brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-
harini saiva-simsapa
raksasi-nasini bhuta-
preta-prana-vinasini
-

She is the other half of Lord Visnu, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma (brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-harini). She is Lord Siva's beloved (saiva-simsapa). She kills the demonesses (raksasi-nasini). She kills the bhutas and pretas (bhuta-preta-prana-vinasini).

krsnartha-vyakula krsna-
sara-carma-dhara subha
alakesvara-pujya ca
kuveresvara-vallabha
-

She is agitated with the desire to attain Lord Krsna (krsnartha-vyakula). She is the beloved of Lord Siva, who wears a deerskin (krsnasara-carma-dhara). She is beautiful (subha). She is worshiped by Kuvera (alakesvara-pujya) and She is dear to Kuvera's master, Lord Siva (kuveresvara-vallabha).


hari-sannidhya-datri ca
hari-kautuka-mangala
hari-prada hari-dvara
yamuna-jala-vasini
-

She stays by Lord Krsna's side (hari-sannidhya-datri). She is very happy to stay with Lord Krsna (hari-kautuka-mangala). She gives Lord Hari (hari-prada) and She is the door to Lord Hari (hari-dvara). She resides by the Yamuna (yamuna-jala-vasini).


kandarpa-koti-janani
kama-bija-pradayini
kama-sastra-vinoda ca
kama-sastra-prakasini
-

She is the mother of millions of Kamadevas (kandarpa-koti-janani). She gives the seed of the desire to attain Lord Krsna (kama-bija-pradayini). She is expert in the science of amorous pastimes (kama-sastra-vinoda and kama-sastra-prakasini).

hari-bhusana-bhusadhya-
nanda-yuktardra-.-ga
hai-hai-tala-dhara thai-thai-
sabda-sakti-prakasini
-

She is decorated with ornaments that decorate Lord Hari's ornaments (hari-bhusana-bhusadhya). She is blissful (ananda-yukta). She is half of Lord Lord Krsna (ardra-.-ga). She expertly beats the rhythm hai hai (hai-hai-tala-dhara) and the rhythm thai thai (thai-thai-sabda-sakti-prakasini).

ugra-rupa siva-kroda
krsna-kroda jalodari
mahodari maha-durga-
kantara-sustha-vasini
-

She manifests the terrible form of Durga-devi (ugra-rupa), where She sits on Lord Siva's lap (siva-kroda). She sits on Lord Krsna's lap (krsna-kroda). She rests on the milk-ocean (jalodari). She descends to the material world (mahodari). She happily lives in a great forest that is like an unapproachable fortress (maha-durga-kantara-sustha-vasini).


harini harini hara-
dharini kanakakrtih
vidyut-prabha vipra-mata
gopa-mata gayesvari
-

She is beautiful as a doe (harini). She is captivating (harini). She wears a beautiful necklace (hara-dharini). Her form is golden (kanakakrti). She is splendid as lightning (vidyut-prabha). She is the mother of the brahmanas (vipra-mata), the mother of the gopas (gopa-mata). and the queen of Gaya (gayesvari).




krsnavatara-nirata
krsna-bhakta-phalarthini
yacakayacakananda-
karini yacakojjvala
-

She devotedly serves Lord Krsna's incarnations (krsnavatara-nirata). She gives Lord Krsna's devotees the fruits of their services (krsna-bhakta-phalarthini) and whether they ask for it or not She gives them transcendental bliss (yacakayacakananda-karini). She gloriously appears before they who offer prayers to Her (yacakojjvala).

bhakty-atita bhakta-gatir
bhaktika siva-bhakti-da
siva-sakti-svarupa ca
sivardhanga-viharini
-

By serving Her one crosses beyond the world of repeated birth and death (bhakty-atita), She is the goal of devotional service (bhakta-gati), She is devotional service (bhaktika), She gives auspicious devotional service (siva-bhakti-da), She is an auspicious potency of the Lord (siva-sakti-svarupa), and She enjoys pastimes as the beloved who is half the body of the auspicious Lord (sivardhanga-viharini).


isvari sarva-vandya ca
gopaniya subhankari
palini sarva-bhutanam
tatha kamanga-harini
-

She is the supreme controller (isvari), worshiped by all (sarva-vandya), reclusive (gopaniya), the giver of auspiciousness (subhankari), the protectress of all living entities (palini sarva-bhutanam), and the wife of Lord Siva who destroyed Kamadeva's body (kamanga-harini).

nilambara-vidhatri ca
nilakantha-priya tatha
bhagini bhagini bhogya
krsna-bhogya bhagesvari
-

She is dressed in blue garments (nilambara-vidhatri). She is Lord Siva's beloved (nilakantha-priya). She is beautiful (bhagini, bhagini, and bhogya), Lord Krsna's happiness (krsna-bhogya

Sorry if I misunderstood you. There were a couple of hints earlier, especially your statement, now repeated several times, that nobody in either traditional nor Gaudiya Math circles understands Radharani properly.

You appear to be accepting only half of the equation.

hlAdinI karAya kRSNe AnandAsvAdana
hlAdinI dvArAya kare bhaktera poSaNa

The hladini energy allows Krishna to relish joy; and through the hladini energy, Krishna sustains his devotees. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.4.60)

But if you stress the relation between the jiva and Radha, are you not saying the same as us, in effect, whose goal it is to become Radha's servants?

As to your penchant for symbolic interpretation, I think it is good. As a matter of fact, I have said it before: The symbolic interpretation has to be very solidly understood, or at least it must be a constant source of intellectual nourishment and faith, in order for the more literal approach to the myth to have any functioning value. However, a purely symbolic understanding is reductionism, and has the opposite effect.

By purely symbolic understanding, I mean that all symbols are felt to point to things in this world, and therefore there is no truth to their transcendental aspect. For the devotee, God is True, but cannot be understood through pure intellectual activity alone. Therefore he is mediated to us through symbols and myths.

All myths have a psychic life of their own, but religious myths are powerful because they embody our ultimate concerns. Furthermore, it is within God's hands to grant them reality.

Bhaktivinode Thakura's statements, quoted above, are simply stating that Radha-Krsna lila appears to be the same as mundane man-woman affairs but should not be considered as such. This understanding permeates all his teachings (and it is a theme expanded upon by Bhaktisiddhanta SST). I think you are misplacing the symbolism altogether. The "unfavorable and hasty conclusions" he warns against, would be rejecting Radha-Krsna lila as immoral or thinking that mundane sex life is spiritual, both topics he covers elsewhere. Do you have any direct statements from him stating that the jivas are to enjoy intimate pastimes with Radha?

- She meditates on Lord Hari (hari-bhavana-sila), and is dedicated to pleasing Lord Hari (hari-tosana-tat-para).
- She is Lord Hari's life and soul (hari-prana)
- She is faithful to Her husband (pati-vrata).
- Her husband is Her very life (pati-prana).
- She delights in Her husband's words (pati-vakya-vinodini)
- She is agitated with the desire to attain Lord Krsna (krsnartha-vyakula)
- She stays by Lord Krsna's side (hari-sannidhya-datri).
- She is very happy to stay with Lord Krsna (hari-kautuka-mangala).
- She gives Lord Hari (hari-prada)
- She gives the seed of the desire to attain Lord Krsna (kama-bija-pradayini)
- Lord Krsna's happiness (krsna-bhogya

It seems quite clear what Radha's focus is. Why is there no mention of her enjoying with the jivas?

- She is faithful to Her husband (pati-vrata).
- Her husband is Her very life (pati-prana).

If she is faithful to her husband, how can she have many lovers? Or do you take it that all the jivas become her husband? (assuming the jivas who enjoy with her are all male)

I dont think so, Radha Krsna lila is full of erotic play so your interpretation
makes no sense, in your view then where is the symbolism he speaks of ?
Simply saying that the so called immorality of their lila is what He is refering
to makes no sense in that there is no symbolism in that.

My understanding is that as he states quite clearly there is symbolism in the lila
that appears before us in the shape of the lila, the hasty conclusion in my view
is made by those who do not understand that Radha and Krsna are the same person, if we see their lila thinking that what we see is truth then we see Radha
and Krsna in love with each other, If we are educated then we know that they are
the same person and then we will not make hasty conclusions.

As for the quotes you took from Radha Sahasra Nama I noticed you left
out all the quotes that say;

She gives Lord Hari (hari-prada) and She is the door to Lord Hari (hari-dvara
She is Draupadi (draupadi), who is dear to the Pandavas (pandava-priya).
She is Sridama's friend (sridamasya sakhi).
She is Arjuna's friend (arjuna-sakhi)
She is Lord Siva's beloved (saiva-simsapa)
She sits on Lord Siva's lap (siva-kroda). She sits on Lord Krsna's lap

So here we see she is both Arjunas friend and wife, and Sivas wife as well,
so although She has lila as the beloved of Krsna still that is not the
same as other relationships because She is Krsna.

So while she has amorous pastimes with Krsna in lila in truth she is Krsna,
so that rasa is not real to Her it is for the necessity of lila, the real rasa
for Her as it would be for anyone is with another person,otherwise one makes
hasty conclusions regarding the highest service.

She is dressed in blue garments (nilambara-vidhatri). She is Lord Siva's beloved (nilakantha-priya). She is beautiful (bhagini, bhagini, and bhogya), Lord Krsna's happiness (krsna-bhogya)

Among my favorites Brahma is dear to Me.
Lakshmi, ever residing on my chest, is dearer than Brahma.
Radha is yet dearer, and my devotees are dearer still.
Dearest of all is Shankara (Siva); no one is dearer than He.
My heart resides with my devotees, My life with Radha.
My Self with Sankara, who is dearer than My life

[BVP]

Just as the celestial Ganges is the most Holy among all the flowing rivers, just as Lord Krishna is the Supreme among all Divine Personalties, just as Lord Siva is the most Exalted Lover of Vishnu, just as the City of Kasi is the most Sacred among all Holy places, Srimad Bhagavatam is also the most fulfilling vow as well as the most elevated Scripture among all other auspicious Puranas.

(Srimad Bhagavatam 12.13.17)




I am not hinting I am being unequivocal,I didn't say "nobody" in either
circle understands Radha properly just that I don't see anyone who is preaching
in public that has the inner understanding that is throughout Gaudiya canon.

As far as saying accepting half of the equation I dont know what you mean,
clearly the quote you use says the hladini (Radha et al) sustains the devotees
and allows Krsna to relish joy, clearly this means Radha is how Krsna enjoys
and How the devotees are also sustained or nourished, it's when we
mistake Radha and Krsna to be two seperate individuals that we misunderstand
rasa lila, Yes the goal is Radha Dasyam but what is serving Radha ?
What is Her real desire and need ?
Is it more intimate to be her Friend or lover ?
She is the inner identity of Krsna, She is Krsna, and serving Her without
desire for the enjoyment of Krsna is stressed above all else.

As for the rest of the stuff about relying to much on symbolism I think
that shouldn't mean we should ignore symbolism, the symbolic truths
are revealed truths and are revealed by the desire of Sri Radha.

I am still not clear on what you are saying. Could you explain what it means to be "Radha's lover" in terms of sadhana?

And could you give some reference to a previous tradition where such goals are envisioned, or practiced? What you are suggesting sounds very strange to me.

Frankly, I can't make heads or tails out of the position Shiva propounds... I wonder if it's the ragged margins...

Jivas making love to Radhika?



what kind of sadhana is this?
serving Radhika erotically?

wow, did i missed out on something?

there is no specific sadhana.


"Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. "

B.Thakura



Strange ? that is subjective, if you think about it how is seeing rasa with Radha
anymore strange then rasa with Krsna ? in madhurya rasa ?

Especially when we know Radha and Krsna are the same and that Radha
is the enjoying potency ?
Isn't it strange to see their rasa as the real meaning of Radha's life ?

Isn't it more normal seeing real rasa for Her to be with a real male person different then Herself [Krsna]

Krsna is Radha, Radha cannot enjoy real rasa with Krsna, She requires
another,what is strange about this ? Isn't any other concept strange ?



As far as sadhana ,traditions,etc. This is the inner teaching, usually not taught
in public, but can be by the will of the supreme.

Doh!

I have no idea where you got this idea, Shiva. It's a real feat of the imagination and has absolutely no precedent anywhere in our tradition. I have yet to see where you are able to show that your "insight" has any foundation in Vaishnava scripture, including Bhaktivinoda Thakur. As a matter of fact, you appear to be saying something that is considered to be the very antithesis of Gaudiya Vaishnava theology--namely that the jiva can or should enjoy the Lord's energy. The jiva is God's energy, a fragmental portion of his hladini shakti, whose perfection is not achieved in acting as the enjoyer, but as the enjoyed. I think you have a lot of work to do in elaborating your doctrine.

Radha and Krishna are one, but take different bodies in order to enjoy rasa. You say--They are one, so how can Krishna enjoy with Radha? What is curious is that you stand a Bhagavata verse right on its head:

evaM pariSvAGga-karAbhimarza-
snigdhekSaNoddAma-vilAsa-hAsaiH |
reme ramezo vraja-sundarIbhir
yathArbhakaH sva-pratibimba-vibhramaiH ||

In this way Lord Krishna, the original Lord Narayan, master of the goddess of fortune, took pleasure in the company of the young women of Vraja by embracing them, caressing them and glancing lovingly at them as He smiled His broad, playful smiles. It was just as if a child were playing with his own reflection. (10.33.16)

The idea is that we jivas are also reflections of the Supreme Being, made in his image, and meant to exchange in loving relations with him. In our sampradaya, we choose to mediate our loving exchanges through Radha, who incarnates the perfection of service in the sense of "giving pleasure."

How does this differ from your understanding?

i never heard anything more strange....

isnt it that Radhika expands Herself in many gopis to enjoy RASA with Krischna?

oh, yeah, well, maybe these expansions might then also be Krishna.

some smell of spiritual schizophrenia in the air...

"The jivas have grown out of the jiva-sakti of Krsna. Cit–sakti is Krsna's plenary sakti, whereas as the jiva-sakti is the incomplete sakti...
These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till, by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the hladini-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma, ch. 15



Baladeva Vidyabhusana comments;



So here He explains that the Lords qualities are manifested through
the para-sakti, And what is the manifestation ?
That is Radha, the hladini sakti, the lords qualities are manifested
in the enjoying of pleasure, Through the svarupa-sakti the lord
manifests as the best of males but it is Radha who is manifesting
the lords various transcendental qualities.

so even though it is explained that Krsna is actually the
Goddess Himself and when He touches Her it is like He
is looking in a mirror, still this is bringing transcendental bliss.
How is this ?

Baladeva Vidyabhusana explains




"when They are together there is naturally the perfection of blissful amorous pastimes."

here we have the answer, blissful amorous pastimes
are perfected by their rasa, in other words their
rasa is for the sake of perfecting lila,
perfecting the pastimes of Vraja.

so the truth is it takes two to tango, the pastimes
of the lord are manifested for the ecstacy they bring,
although Radha and Krsna are the central figures
of the lila their rasa is compared to one looking
into a mirror.

If we reject logic and reason what are we left with ?

Radha and Krsna are one and the same and if we leave that out
of the equation everything after that is wrong.



So we have two realities; prakrta lila and the aprakrta lila, What we
see in lila and what we don't see in lila, What we see is Radha and Krsna
and the nitya sakhis in love, What we don't see is that they are all the same
being in different bodies and personas, so while they are described as being
in love, using our knowledge we can see another inner truth not visible
in the lila.


From the last paragraphs of Jaiva Dharma

You might want to document your quotations a bit better. Baladeva says, but where? The Sanskrit would also be very welcome to spare us from the trouble of having to look up everything you post.

I do not quite follow where your presentation heads at; it seems as if you were arguing against something or someone? Please explain in one or two clean and well-thought paragraphs the thesis and the antithesis your posts revolve around.


I do not know where you are quoting this from, but this is certainly not Jiva talking. The words svakIya and parakIya appear nowhere in his tika on Brahma-samhita.

Sorry, govinda bhasya
and the other by jiva is from narayana maharaja.

The point is made though you can quibble over sanskrit.

The idea is that the nitya sakhis are all expansions of Radha
and are the same as Krsna, so in tattva there cannot be
real parakiya, the parakiya that is manifested is unreal
in the sense that they are all the same person, so any rasa
between them in terms of tattva is different then what
appears in the lila.

This is logical and beyond refute unless you want to accept
some form of polytheism.

The thesis has been clearly put forth allready,
so I am confused by your lack of noticing that.

There is no Jiva Gosvami by Narayan Maharaja... There is Jiva Gosvami by Jiva Gosvami, and if it's written by Narayan Maharaja, it's not from Jiva Gosvami. And yes, knowing the quality of many of those translations you quote from, I will quibble over Sanskrit, if that's what I have to do to get the message straight.

What you present above is a very basic conception in our siddhanta. We all know that in the realm of ontological considerations, there is nothing but one unparalleled Supreme, who appears as many to enjoy His own existence. Radha is the original potency of Krishna, the original person; the sakhis are manifestations of Radha, the realm of Goloka along with its inhabitants is manifest from sandhini, an aspect of Bhagavan's potency. This is ABC, my friend.

Is this all you've been trying to get through with all these posts? Whatever it may have been, it hasn't been clear.

And for Jagat if you want some interesting symbolism.



From Krsna Sandarbha of Jiva Goswami

Well it appears to be clear to Jagat who has been presenting an antithesis
to something.

As you may not know many have a polytheistic vision of rasa thinking
Radha and Krsna and the nitya sakhis to be individuals instead
of a single person posing as seperate individuals, the rest of my thesis
which if you have read what I have posted is quite clear and Has
been contested by Jagat, I don't see how you can say I have not
presented a specific point.

As far as the quote from Narayana Maharaja quoting Jiva Goswami
I took the quote as accurate simply because I assumed He had something
to back it up with.

We are very thick indeed, Dirty Hari. I am simultaneously one and different from Krishna. Yet, I am a separate individual. Radha is simultaneously one and different from Krishna, yet she is very definitely a separate individual.

However, I would say that the Gaudiya conception is not purely monotheistic, nor purely polytheistic.

The psychological fact is that we are polytheistic. There is only one God, but he appears in different forms. Even our one Krishna appears as Narayan, Narasingha, Krishna, etc. These different forms correspond to our changing attitudes and concepts of the Supreme.

You may think you are being clear, and you may think that your quotes are helping, but they are not. This is because you seem to be saying that the individual jiva is meant to act in relation to Radha as male lover. This to me is horrendous rasabhasa.

I recently quoted this verse from Ujjvala-nilamani, and this is what you seem to be saying:
vartitavyaM zam icchadbhir bhaktavan na tu kRSNavat
ity evaM bhakti-zAstrANAM tAtparyasya vinirNayaH

One who desires the ultimate good identifies with the devotee (i.e., the female entity in Krishna lila) and not with Krishna. This is the conclusion of all the devotional scriptures.

Could you clarify how what you are saying is different?

You are quite correct. Radha and Krishna are one entity. So we are servants of the Divine Couple, but we accept that Radha is the sum total of all service to Krishna, so none of us can compete with her. As a result, we serve Krishna through her. This is called Radha-dasyam. But you seem to think that this is not the ultimate goal of your spiritual life, nor of our sampradaya.

I realize that I am brainwashed by the understanding that I have been cultivating over the last 35 years, but I recognize that you have also been studying the Vaishnava scriptures for a long time, so I am curious to know how you have come to a conclusion that seems radically different from the greatest number of devotees.

vinApy AkalpaiH zrI-vRSaravi-sutA kRSNa-savidhe
mudotphullA bhAvAbharaNa-valitAlIH sukhayati |
vinA kRSNaM tRSNAkulita-hRdayAlaGkRti-cayair
yutApy eSA mlAnA malinayati tAsAM tanu-manaH ||

Without her jewels, King Bhanu’s girl
If put by Krishna’s side,
Her eyes blossom in happiness,
Love’s beauty shines inside;

To see her full in joy with him
Her friends all swell with pride.

Without her Lord, King Bhanu’s girl
Trembles in lonely fright,
Though decked in jewels and finery,
She is not a happy sight.

She wilts and so do all her friends
Like lotuses at night. (GLA 11.134)

First off I am not saying being Radha's lover is for all jivas, that would contradict
the traditional position that states that there are eternal associates of all of the
avatars of Vishnu as there are also eternal associates of Krsna in Dwarka
as well as Vraja, and in these places there are eternal associates having
different relationships with Krsna, some as gopas some as parents some
as princes etc, so I am not saying all jivas are eternally lovers of Radha.

But some are, the Pandavas for example, the gopas are also unless you
believe that in Vraja the gopas are celibate and don't have amorous pastimes
with the gopis which is inconcievable and unrealistic and plain wrong.

Shiva also even though there are numerous Shiva's still the post is eternal
and therefore they are eternally lovers of Parvati.



Secondly the polytheism you espouse is in my opinion wrong.

Radha is not a seperate individual then Krsna, I can show you countless
verses denying that, while all that you will find is verses saying how they
are different bodies or different manifestations of a single person
and you will find no verses saying they are seperate individuals,
always it is explained that they are one person in two bodies,
never one person become two persons, one and different
is always explained in terms of different bodies or moods etc,
it is never explained in terms of different essential identity.

So polytheism is nowhere welcomed in the tradition, while you may
call it quasi polytheism, still that is nowhere supported at all,
only One God many forms are accepted, not One God many
Gods, anything other then One person One identity as God
is polytheism no matter how you phrase it.


radha-purna-sakti, krsna-purna-saktiman
dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana
radha-krsna aiche sadaeka-i svarupa
lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa
(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.96,9)

"There is no difference between the energy and the energetic, sakti-saktiman abhina. Therefore there is no difference between Radha and Krsna. Radha is purna-sakti and Krsna is purna-saktiman, so there is no difference, but, lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa, to relish the mellow of pastimes two bodies are there, Radha and Krsna, otherwise they are one. So in Vraja-lila there are two bodies, Radha and Krsna, visaya and asraya. But in the form of Gauranga They are one. Radha and Krsna combined together. Krsna assuming the mood and complexion of Radharani appears and that is Gauranga. This is the tattva, and that is a very deep and confidential tattva."

A.C.Bhaktivedanta lecture


from Govinda Bhasya



Even Durga is identical to Krsna as told by Jiva Goswami




So my point is that Radha Dasyam can be understood from another viewpoint
then meaning a helper to Her as a manjari, higher then that is understanding
that Radha is the inner identity of Krsna, She is enjoying millions of times
more then Krsna, She is Krsna, Serving Her desire for madhurya rasa is the highest most intimate service, Krsna is her puppet and Her lila with Krsna
has a deeper understanding then the one you may envision.

I just read through the development of raganuga sadhana thread, I would have posted this there but I thought this thread would be better so as not to interrupt the train of thought there, although this has to do somewhat with that thread, this post also has to do with this one.

I used to think like most of you about raganuga sadhana. When Sudhir Goswami first brought over to San Francisco Sridhar Maharaja's tapes (1981), I was able to listen and this was when my interest in learning about the details of manjari bhava and raganuga was piqued. While I had read of such things in Caitanya Caritamrta, I had not seen it as a perogative in terms of time and energy spent in trying to really understand it, after all I was in Iskcon and my time was spent in such day to day concerns as physical service and the study of sastra for the purpose of learning, rather then development of rasa.

Upon hearing Sridhar Maharaja speak about manjari bhava and rasa it was like another reality opened up in my understanding of the real purpose of sadhana bhakti, instead of reading sastra soley to learn philosophy I was now seeing another purpose as well, developing an inner relationship with Radha Krishna.

Shortly thereafter I moved to Honolulu, Hawaii. Since I had left Iskcon and was interested in pursuing a different aspect of sadhana then what they were focused on I had no desire to have anything to do with the temple there. I spent a few hours a day collecting money "hitting up" the tourists for donations in the way I had been trained and that gave me enough money to live on. It was easy because Japanese honeymooners choose Hawaii as their main destination, the newly wed husbands were easy pickings because they didn't want to look cheap in front of their wives (this is what I had learned a few years earlier). This gave me a lot of time to do what I wanted.

The University of Hawaii library has a book exchange program with India, they have an entire floor of books from India, including both english and native languages. I found that they had many books by the goswamis and by other gaudiya authors as well, they had all of Bhaktivedantas books, Bhaktisiddhantas, Bhaktivinoda's and others.

So I spent the better part of every day studying these books for almost 1 year. Mostly I studied the books of Krsnadas Kaviraja, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami and Bhaktivinoda, although many others to a lesser extent. My mood was trying to understand manjari bhava and the process of internalizing the teachings.

I had no guidance from any breathing person, all of my instructions came from books. Essentially I began to practice raganuga sadhana, although it was in my own unique way based on the writings of Rupa as my template in understanding the mood of Radha Krsna and the lila of vraja, his plays were my guides in understanding that mood and the personalities of Radha, Krsna and the rest.

So my mood and understanding was very different then what I had been exposed to in ISKCON or even in Sridhars Temple, from reading I could see that the real mood of Vraja was erotic and lighthearted, it seemed to be a sophisticated comedy with an emphasis on the erotic play. This is how I came to understand rasa.

In ISKCON temple life the emphasis had been on physcial service, the attitude towards development of an internal relationship with Radha Krsna was not discussed, philosophical discussions had to do with anything but that. Radha Krsna was worshipped in the mood of either awe and reverence or in the mood of overwhelming humility i.e I am too fallen to deal directly with them. Any kind of reference to rasa was always in the mood of seperation, or a kind of sturm und drang vision of the rasa between Radha and Krsna or the Gopis and Krsna or Mahaprabhu and Krsna.

My new vision was completely different, the Dana Keli Kaumudi of Sri Rupa was now my new template for envisioning rasa lila, although I also had a chance to read Gita Govinda at the library, it was Rupa's lighthearted erotic farce's that touched me as emblematic of rasa lila, and this is how I approached the matter internally.

In my study of Gita Govinda and Rupa's plays I had initially been perplexed by the contradictory moods of intense misery and seperation in Gita Govinda contrasted with it's opposite mood of lighthearted erotic comedy in the plays. The moods seemed like they were too different to make sense to me as both being truely representative of rasa lila. Then it came to me, Gita Govinda was totally symbolic and metaphorical in nature. Mahaprabhu cited Jayadeva's work as the apotheosis of Bhagavata siddhanta, Rupa was the assigned acarya for rasa, yet the two moods were at opposite ends of the spectrum.

At the same time my vision of Radha Krsna tattva had changed. By intense study of Caitanya Caritamrta it had become obvious to me that my previous vision of Radha and Krsna as two distinct people had been totally wrong. I had been under the misunderstanding of seeing them as they are portrayed in lila as being entirely accurate in it's portrayal of their ontological position. In ISKCON Radha and Krsna are portrayed as two people in love, this is also how lila is presented in general. So this is how I understood rasa lila until that time, everything was about being a part of the lila that had as it's raison d' etre the rasa between Radha and Krsna, and to a lesser degree Krsna and the gopis.

Which I came to see as a basic mistake in trying to understand rasa.

While trying to reconcile Gita Govinda and the lighthearted comedies, while studying Caitanya Caritamrta and Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, it became obvious as to what the truth is.

Gita Govinda is all about the pangs of seperation that Radha goes through while Krsna is enjoying with others, she cannot enjoy Krsna, and this causes her distress.

This is a metaphor, although not as the commentators usually like to make it out to be, it is not about the jivas seperation from God, rather it is about God's seperation from the jiva.

Radha cannot enjoy Krsna, this is the seperation at the heart of the story, this is the apotheosis of the entire Bhagavata canon.

Yet we know that Radha and Krsna are one and the same, they are never seperate, they are one soul, one being, one person in two forms, there can never be true seperation between them.

But the inability to enjoy Krsna is the heart and soul of the story, Radha is going through transformations of seperation inspired misery, this is meant to teach us something about the essential character of rasa lila. Radha cannot enjoy Krsna. And this is the cause of distress. She turns towards her intimates for relief, this is the symbolic message at the inner heart of Bhagavata siddhanta. Radha is in need, Krsna cannot satisfy her longing for intimacy, it is to her intimates that she turns.

After coming to this understanding from then on my sadhana took a very different route, Krsna's desires and association were no longer seen as the raison d'etre of rasa lila, everything was seen in a new light, what was once read and understood in one way, now revealed another hidden dimension to me.

By internalizing this realization in my sadhana I began to get results, whereas previously everything was on the mental plane of dealing with these concepts intellectually. Gradually I had the truth revealed directly, of course it takes a thorough understanding of the nature of atma/paramatma, but once this is understood and the true nature of rasa is understood as well, then the truth is revealed from within, your rasa need not wait until you gain a new body, wherever you are, God is always with you.