Starting Your Own Movement - Who's got the guts?

Radhapada:

Wherefrom did you stumble into the Hare Krsna movement? Or is there such a movement at all? Is this idea of a Hare Krsna Movement a "wrong" conception too?

I stumbled into the Hare Krishna during a time I was practicing yoga and following a Brahman path. In the yoga books I was reading some mantras were recommended to chant for meditation eg. Om, Hare Krishna, etc. Some of the yoga books I read also recommended the study of Bhagavad Gita. I would often go to esoterik book shops and look through the various editions of Gita of which I found also the BBT edition. In the spring of 1977 I met ISKCON bhaktas in Central Park selling prasadam and I noticed they had copies of the Gita of which I was interested in reading. The devotee said I can keep it for free. I was amazed that someone can give me something like that for free. I walked way still astonished when another devotee approached me and gave me an invitation to the Sunday love feast. Shortly after his speach I heard for the first time the ISKCON maha mantra, "CAN YOU GIVE A DONATION FOR THE BOOK?" That was my first encounter, first they say something is free and then they ask you for money. I gave 25 cents for it. I read it and half a year later I was stupid enough to be doing the same thing, "CAN YOU GIVE A DONATION?"

A month later I met someone, a Mayavadi, on the New York Subways who saw the Gita in my hand and he preached to me to become vegetarian and visit the Hare Krishna temple restaraunt, Govinda's. When I started getting too much into Hare Krishna he protested, but it was too late. A friend of his became my buddy with whom I used to go to the temple with. He got suckered into joining the Radha Damodara bus program. I was there when he was preached. They showed him pictures of devotees doing bhajan with Indian instruments and painted an estatic portrait of Hare Krsna devotee living. I saw him a month later back in his home. He told me they made him collect money and he found himself in conflicts with people and realized that life was not for him. He stopped going to the temple and chanting.

Anyway, I joined in the fall of 1977 after being convinced to quit my 4th year of high school and run away from home to join a movement of singing, dancing and eating. Unfortunately, it was most of the time not like that for 10 years or so. I was trained to cheat and lie to people. I joined because I was attracted to bhajan, kirtan Deity worship and I was deceived and made to go out and sell records, incence, bumper stickers, flags, Pope John Paul buttons, you name it, for pleasing Gurudeva. That's how I stumbled into the Hare Krsna movement.

Dear Anand
Going back to what you said earlier:
You said that devotees preaching are part of a lila, and therefore associates of God. It is an interesting point worth exploring. I think we should start another thread on this subject.

No. I did not say that.



If by "we" you mean you and I, I must apologize but I have to disappoint you: I am not interested. But, I think you should start your own movement.

I’m interested in establishing a ‘learning center’ wherein people can get an opportunity to learn the pure teachings of the Six Goswamis and congregate to glorify in kirtan songs the holy name, form, quality and pastimes of Sri Radha-Krishna. Would you be interested to particpate?

I'll start a movement if somebody pays the bills.

A movement in this regard is defined as follows:

11. a diffusely organized or heterogeneous group of people or organizations tending toward or favoring a generalized common goal.

I am not interested in this.

I look foward to sharing the teachings of Sriman Mahaprabhu to a favorable audience. I would like to avoid having to challenge people's ideas but rather impress them with the nectar of singing the names of Krsna and the sublime teachings of the Goswamis. I would not have asramas but encourage people to go on in their lives with the addition of bhakti bhajan. Of course, a person would require initiation into sacred mantras in order to qualify for bhakti sadhana, but that's a high stage. A small place that is quite and clean will do. We have enough sufficient literature that people can go through in order to become aquintated with the teachings. As Madhava said, it requires dedication. If there were a few people to help, it would not be such a big endeavour. Renting a small space is sufficient. Advertising can be done through spiritually oriented health magazines, ect.

Years ago I used to routinely have a gathering of some 5 to 15 devotees every Saturday night in Vrndavan. We would have blissful kirtan and and rasika readings from the Goswami granthas. Quite some of those devotees later took diksa from Baba or other parivars. In Slovenia I used to hold sat sanga programs in my home. After some time some of those devotees took diksa from Baba or other parivars as well. What I am getting at is that it doesn't have to be a massive organization with many things going on, just the essential basics--sravanam and kirtanam.

Not at all. I think though it flopped. It is a tiny organization that is not recognized as a major religion. One of the things that made it flop was too many ambitious plans without qualified people to handle the projects and enough resources to cover them. Other contemporary spiritual organiations have out done them in regards to members and finance eg. Maharaja Mahesh Yogi, Scientology.

I just saw the movie 'Gandhi' last night. In South Africa he was telling a reporter about his idea of people building asramas and so forth. The reporter told him, "You are quite ambitious." Gandhi replied, "I hope not."

Where's that definition taken from? "Movement", as in "religious movement", generally does not refer to a diffusely organized group. In fact, many new religious movements come to adopt many cultish patterns, being very homogeneous in terms of lifestyle, and often also centralized in management.

Yes, such endeavors certainly demand resources. It is, therefore, hard to pull off such an undertaking singlehandedly, particularly for a householder. A man who has nothing to worry over aside his two pairs of socks may live in whatever way and earn or not earn money, but householders tend to require regular income. Generally whatever we need to do to get our regular income tends to chew away the time from such projects.

Therefore, for example I have found the cyberspace the best field of endevors, since it consumes relatively little resources and allows me more flexibility time-wise.

Good quote from Gandhi.

The conundrum is, as far as I can see, that nothing happens without leadership. And yet, leadership always means the dangers of newer and newer ego challenges.

In 1981 when I was still in Iskcon I was once talking to someone in Zürich and mentioned the word Movement (Bewegung in German), and he asked back incredulously, "movement?, you really mean movement?". I realised I was into a wrong language game. There was a movement at that time in Zürich, a mood of unhappiness and unrest in the whole population (extreme wealth versus need for change, openness to life). That was a movement, they came out into the streets for demonstrations, gatherings, events; what happened in 1968, the student revolution, that was a movement. A movement is something that affects people, stirs them and motivates them.

I do not know whether Hare Krishna was a movement in the U.S.A. for a time in the Hippie environement. In Europe it was definitely at no time ever a movement. It was just a fanatic stereotyped lifeless bunch of young people, doing "Shnik-Shnik-Ram-Ram" for one and a half hours every day, fantasizing themselves to be chosen to get into the position of power. They really thought they would take over the world. Fortunately things don't happen that cheap. Looking at the mentality that Iskcon has created in people, I wish to express my deep gratitude for its failure as a social force. Ethically corrupted people rose into positions of power within no time. Most people who joined were not able to spell the word "philosophy" correctly, and what they mistook for philosophy was just a short catalogue of hazy believes. To be at the mercy of such people in every-day-life would have had very dire consequences for humanity. Of course, its aspirations were totally ridiculous, from beginning to end. Once one is brainwashed into their believes, they lose totally touch with reality and the real needs of people and the world, and the positive achievements of culture, "real" philosophy, and art.

Sure, on the positive side are the Holy Name, the beautiful worship, the deities, prasad, sanga, and some deeply realized vaishnavas also.

I think one problem that you are facing is that you may get caught in having to explain what is different in yours versus the Gaudiya Math-Iskcon approach. This need for self-definition in people who have no prior connection with any of these organisations can turn your endeavours sour.



The main thing that made it flop, IMHO, is the lack of the natural development of a basis for ethical behaviour, of a conscience. No amount of management capacity, ressources, and organisation is going to improve the chances. As a whole, it has become evident that these organized belief-systems are destroying values rather than creating them. I think the most disastrous of rules is the one that says "Whatever you do do it for Krishna". This invites the transgression of the natural feeling of inhibition, of one's conscience, when confronted with choices in one's actions. Pragmatism is the ruling principle. When that is the case, there is no continuity of values left, there is no orientation possible that connects inner experience with an higher order of reality.

The most disastrous result of Pragmatism is that people are used rather than seen as values in themselves. Pragmatism is the generally accepted code of behaviour in the U.S., and it is getting increasingly so in Europe also due to the effort of globalizing American non-culture everywhere. "Spiritual" Organisations originating in the U.S. spread that poison also.

I think it was the artificial imposition of the four regs and the constant verbal threat of offence that caused a split in the experience of reality, the culturally defining actions of shaving one's head and wearing weird draperies instead of clothes aside. You are morally on safe ground if you follow the 4 regs and chant the 16 rounds, then go out and cheat people for their money since it's all Krishna's energy. Or stay in the temple, and speak bad about karmis and fellow devotees who happen to not follow some of the regs or happen to say things which are "offence". Or speak ecstatically about your false perceptions of reality (book-"distribution"). If you have to follow commandments rather than develop your own conscience, your inner capacity for value-perception dies. It is the complete death of subjectivity. Temple-inmates appear as zombies for this reason.

When thinking of starting something yourself it is worth the effort to learn from the experience of existing traditions. In Christianity there are three basic traditions in spiritual cultivation. The earliest one, the anchorites, hermits residing alone in a place difficult of access for the people, is not much in practice any more. The second one is the Benedictine order, characterized by "stabilitas loci" (stability of the place, life-long staying in one place and cultivating it) and the principle of "ora et labora" (pray and work). It lasted almost a thousand years until St. Francis of Assisis started his mendicant order on the principle of a migrant life, and of non-possession of anything. The Benedictines and other orders were corrupted by too much wealth, yet their stability gave them a basis to have strong influence on civilisation and culture.

I think stabilitas loci is still a valuable principle to up-hold, even though difficult to keep when you are alone. In modern context it means the opposite of our drive towards mobility. Stability gives a sense of continuity, of responsibility if approached with inner responsiveness.

Stability may not be what you have in mind for a sanga-place right now, but it is what is needed in the long run.

Unless the lesson that mattes is learned, I don't think so. I would find your opinions abusive and you would find mine stupid.


Just don't expect the one-pair-only-sandals sadhus to come up with the means.

But cyberspace is fine, if only we could look at one another in "the eyes".

I have a webcam built into my laptop. Let's see if we can come up with something of interest...

A couple of points came to mind while reading this, Nabadip. First, several months back I was thinking on this topic of morality and how it is lacking in the Krishna consciousness movement (at least, in the forms that I am familiar with). At the same time a sannyasi friend of mine was corresponding with a long time acquaintance of his who is a Catholic priest. The priest commented on the apparent lack of a moral system in the teachings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami. A really interesting exchange took place and the priest recommended "Reason Informed by Faith: Foundations of Catholic Morality" by Richard Gula as a primer on the topic. One thing I recall from that book is an examination of the difference between the ethics of being and the ethics of action. The devotee world I know is definitely caught in the paradigm of the ethics of action, and, I guess, that is the tendency/risk of any teaching that focuses on "spreading the word."

Second, I think an examination of the history of ISKCON, or any organization for that matter, cannot be balanced unless it also includes an examination of the mentality of the individuals who make up that organization. Jagat mentioned the "Hare Krishna personality type" recently, and personally, this interests me more than looking at the mistakes of a fledging organization, that IMO, was mostly well-intentioned but out of touch with reality. Maybe I am somewhat callous, but it irks me a bit when I hear people say, "They made me send my children to India," or "I was sent out in a Santa suit." Part of me screams, "What we YOU thinking? Why did you do it?"

My experience was that before I could even pronounce "kuruksetra," I could see that the business activities of ISKCON were not in concordance with what was presented in the books of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami nor in the teachings of Sri Caitanya. Maybe I was just lucky or saved by my anarchistic tendency, but I don't understand why people let themselves get hoodwinked.

The danger of exploitative leaders can only exist so long as a pool of weak-minded followers exists. Those who seek a surrogate for inner development by subscribing to a group are almost as guilty, IMO. It's human, no doubt, and I'm being somewhat arrogant here, but I think it needs to be examined from this angle also. The parasitical ramblings of PADA, the splinter groups, and many of those who give up devotional life altogether seem to have a heavy dose of "they" and "them" and so long as someone remains in a centrifugal state, seeking acceptance/perfection/redemption outside the center of their own being, progress is thwarted. Even more so, when they attribute blame solely to those outside forces.

I do not know the book you are talking about and therefore cannot gather what ethical significance might be implied in ethics of action. Does it mean the same as applied ethics?

Can you briefly state that? It seems to me there is no ethics at all; it is hard to conceive of an ethical system that justifies the continuous cheating of people to get their money, of making fun of karmis entangled in their lives, and of other unwholesome activities that are preceived as such by most normal and sane human beings.

System versus individuals making up that system is difficult to see apart from each other, especially when individuality is condemned by the system, and the system's survival and honor is put way above the one of the individuals. I remember how friendship was discouraged. It was basically an atmosphere of fear.... I am not concerned with the organization as an org, though, but as a congregation of individuals losing their identities in favor of the organisation, and that being justified in terms of spirituality.

I think we all know from experience that the group is an entity of its own, a different being than the individuals making up that group.

I think there are a lot of interesting points to discuss in this context, but I would not want to lose the focus of this thread. I am not into Iskcon-bashing, but wish to see what is the positive to be learned from it, what should be avoided, and what introduced in another vaishnava congregation.

I think part of the problems have to do with the weakness happening in an individual with the change of identity due to an externally imposed spiritual identity. Suddenly,what was of value so far, developed thru a life-time of experiences, loses its basis. All the inherent moral standards of a person are questioned, de-valued, and if nothing comes in its place, a vacuum arises. If "the guru" is placed into the place of one's conscience, and the guru-person substituted with some ideological statements ("the books"), then you have the perfect alienated, outside-controlled robot speaking with a human voice. System and individual are interchangeable, with no individuality left.

I was 100% behind you until now, Nabadip, but surely allegiance to Guru and Shastra are not to be lumped in with being brainwashed by a Big Machine Multinational Sect? Indian Vaishnavas mostly live at home, have their own money and are mostly mature, sane, realistic and responsible people, though they do adhere to Guru and Shastra. Or perhaps you mean with Guru and Shastra the Sect-Guru (clone of his colleagues) and the 'Holy' Books the Scriptures whose teachings are twisted to serve the interests of the Big Machine Sect? In that case I am still with you. I personally see no contradiction between my conscience and my Guru.

"By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master one cannot make any advancement."

"By hook or crook get them to take a book"

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

Braja,
when all of this gets mixed into Krsna bhakti you have a situation where people cannot think for themselves. The thinking process becomes paralized because one is taught not think, but to obey. The mind becomes an enemy and one disempowers ones own inner sense of right from wrong.


My experience in my bhajan practice and relationship with my Guru is not one of disempowering ones thinking potencial and ability, but one of empowering. Raganuga practice is one of the mind. It doesn't become an enemy but a tool to attain the highest treasure of human attainment.

With this in mind I believe big projects and mandirs cannot substitute the need of the soul for creating a mandir within the mind. As Bhaktivinoda Thakur has nicely written, "Oh Sri Krsna Murari, Sri Krsna Muraru, please reside within the temple of mind. I will worship you with chandan and a flower garland..."

Navadwip.
I also believe there was no real movement. Some countries in Europe, mostly in the former communist ones, out did Western Europe in creating Vaisnava congregations of people, but hardly on a level of a real movement compared to Martin Luther King Jr. the civil rights movement or the peaceful non-cooperation of Gandhi. The sense of movement was created within the minds of those who had taken to the practices of ISKCON, watching videos of the "World of Hare Krishna", ect. It was predicted that people would first laugh at them, then they would persecute them and then the people would embrace them. I feel that people in general haven't taken them seriously at all.

Anand,
Did you ever had the guts to give up your education, job, family, friends to move into a temple and live at their mercy? If you did, for how many years. And if you didn't, would you have the guts to do it?

Yes, I did Radhapada, many years ago I gave up most everything to be with devotees. And I would do it again today.

You have my blessings!

'tis all your mercy guruji.

Will it be anytime soon? Let me know when you plan to get rid of some stuff. I need a dining table and chairs for my apartment.

[quote]In Europe it was definitely at no time ever a movement. It was just a fanatic stereotyped lifeless bunch of young people, doing "Shnik-Shnik-Ram-Ram" for one and a half hours every day, fantasizing themselves to be chosen to get into the position of power.[/quote]

A movement according to Merriam-Webster : "a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end."

Iskcon was and is a movement.

The other stuff is really pejorative and a subjective view that I am sure falls way off the mark.

[quote]Most people who joined were not able to spell the word "philosophy" correctly, and what they mistook for philosophy was just a short catalogue of hazy believes. [/quote]

That is not my experience. Most devotees I knew and know are quite intelligent
and when questioned have a strong philosophical understanding. Hazy beliefs ?
I don't think so. Rather they have a very firm and exact belief system.

[quote]To be at the mercy of such people in every-day-life would have had very dire consequences for humanity.[/quote]

You use the few who were abusive and create a false generalization. Surely
the world is not better off being led by right wing fascists as it is now ?

[quote]Once one is brainwashed into their believes, they lose totally touch with reality and the real needs of people and the world, and the positive achievements of culture, "real" philosophy, and art.[/quote]

Their beliefs seem to be AOK for millions of Indians who believe the same.
What is reality ? Isvara parama Krsna...Sarva karana karanam is reality. Maybe
you need a reality check.

[quote]I think one problem that you are facing is that you may get caught in having to explain what is different in yours versus the Gaudiya Math-Iskcon approach. This need for self-definition in people who have no prior connection with any of these organisations can turn your endeavours sour.[/quote]

Man proposes God disposes.

[quote]The main thing that made it flop, IMHO, is the lack of the natural development of a basis for ethical behaviour, of a conscience. No amount of management capacity, ressources, and organisation is going to improve the chances. As a whole, it has become evident that these organized belief-systems are destroying values rather than creating them. I think the most disastrous of rules is the one that says "Whatever you do do it for Krishna".[/quote]

How did it flop ? It is still growing and still connecting people to Krishna regardless of the many faults of its leaders. It is still providing a place for Hindus to congregate and perform harinam sankirtan all over the world where there may be no other opportunity for sadhu sanga and all the rest.

Just because you had one type of experience based on your own karma, don't presuppose that everyone else is identical and going to experience the same thing from Iskcon. Ultimately the basis for bhakti yoga is "Whatever you do, do it for Krishna." If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with bhakti yoga not with Iskcon.

[quote]This invites the transgression of the natural feeling of inhibition, of one's conscience, when confronted with choices in one's actions. Pragmatism is the ruling principle. When that is the case, there is no continuity of values left, there is no orientation possible that connects inner experience with an higher order of reality.[/quote]

That is a leap of logic, going from a philosophical base of doing your work for Krishna or in other words utilizing your life for the purpose of getting in synch with the message of Krishna and transforming that basic message of bhakti yoga into self-abnegation of conscience is illogical.

The idea that pragmatic concerns destroy ones inner conscience based on the
message of "do what you do for Krishna" is based on what evidence ?

What values are you speaking of that are overshadowed by pragmatic concerns ?

It seems you are saying the philosophy of the Gita is at fault. I put it to you that God is in control of your destiny and that Karma is the basis for your complaints. You want to blame seemingly unpleasant experience of yours or others on one thing when in reality God is in full control of all and everything you have experienced and will experience. The problem wasn't the philosophy; it was and still is our own problem of coming to realize who is really in control and why things happen they way they do.

[quote]I think it was the artificial imposition of the four regs and the constant verbal threat of offence that caused a split in the experience of reality, the culturally defining actions of shaving one's head and wearing weird draperies instead of clothes aside. You are morally on safe ground if you follow the 4 regs and chant the 16 rounds, then go out and cheat people for their money since it's all Krishna's energy. Or stay in the temple, and speak bad about karmis and fellow devotees who happen to not follow some of the regs or happen to say things which are "offence". Or speak ecstatically about your false perceptions of reality (book-"distribution"). If you have to follow commandments rather than develop your own conscience, your inner capacity for value-perception dies. It is the complete death of subjectivity. Temple-inmates appear as zombies for this reason.[/quote]

What is reality ? What is subjectivity ? The reality that is experienced was and is the desire of God,your generalizations need to be seen for what they are, subjective perception based on your own limitations.

[quote]Second, I think an examination of the history of ISKCON, or any organization for that matter, cannot be balanced unless it also includes an examination of the mentality of the individuals who make up that organization. Jagat mentioned the "Hare Krishna personality type" recently, and personally, this interests me more than looking at the mistakes of a fledging organization, that IMO, was mostly well-intentioned but out of touch with reality. Maybe I am somewhat callous, but it irks me a bit when I hear people say, "They made me send my children to India," or "I was sent out in a Santa suit." Part of me screams, "What we YOU thinking? Why did you do it?" [/quote]

Hare krsna personality type ? say whaaat ? So we are all the of the same type ?
What is that ? Out of touch with reality ? What is reality ? Isvara parama Krsna...sarva karana karanam be there or be out of touch with reality.

[quote]My experience was that before I could even pronounce "kuruksetra," I could see that the business activities of ISKCON were not in concordance with what was presented in the books of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami nor in the teachings of Sri Caitanya. Maybe I was just lucky or saved by my anarchistic tendency, but I don't understand why people let themselves get hoodwinked. [/quote]

People follow the path that Krsna desires of them. "EVERYONE follows my path in all repects"

[quote]The danger of exploitative leaders can only exist so long as a pool of weak-minded followers exists. Those who seek a surrogate for inner development by subscribing to a group are almost as guilty[/quote]

Then why is the association of vaishnavas so highly valued and extolled in all relevant sastra ?

God is in control of your destiny, not exploitative leaders. Reality check

[quote]First, several months back I was thinking on this topic of morality and how it is lacking in the Krishna consciousness movement (at least, in the forms that I am familiar with). [/quote]

Pejorative and generalization. Have you really thought about this topic ? There is no morality in the "Krishna consciousness movement" ? Based on what ? A few leaders ? How about the millions of people who subscribe to the philosophy and consider themselves part of the "Krishna consciousness movement" are they all immoral ?

[quote]System versus individuals making up that system is difficult to see apart from each other, especially when individuality is condemned by the system, and the system's survival and honor is put way above the one of the individuals. I remember how friendship was discouraged. It was basically an atmosphere of fear.... I am not concerned with the organization as an org, though, but as a congregation of individuals losing their identities in favor of the organisation, and that being justified in terms of spirituality. [/quote]

This seems like fantasy to me. I never experienced any of that in my 5 years in Iskcon, spent mostly in California, but in other places as well. There may be some truth to what you say, but it is based on singular experience and it certainly was not a "truth" for everyone everywhere.

[quote]I think part of the problems have to do with the weakness happening in an individual with the change of identity due to an externally imposed spiritual identity. Suddenly,what was of value so far, developed thru a life-time of experiences, loses its basis. All the inherent moral standards of a person are questioned, de-valued, and if nothing comes in its place, a vacuum arises. If "the guru" is placed into the place of one's conscience, and the guru-person substituted with some ideological statements ("the books"), then you have the perfect alienated, outside-controlled robot speaking with a human voice. System and individual are interchangeable, with no individuality left. [/quote]

This is a vast simplification bordering on complete fiction. You experienced what was your destiny, others experienced other things. All in all, it was the will of God that created the system and put you and all others there. What you call alienated robot can be compared to the people they were before they became devotees, seeing reality based on conditioning of western imposed theory and mindless insanity compared to the education they received on the true nature of reality within Iskcon.

What you call "outiside controlled" others may call the bhakti yoga system. It is certainly no worse than living a life based on the standards one imbibes and follows coming from the Madison Avenue pandits promoting a self-centered existence based on consumerism. Again Isvara parama Krsna..sarva karana karanam.

[quote]I also believe there was no real movement. Some countries in Europe, mostly in the former communist ones, out did Western Europe in creating Vaisnava congregations of people, but hardly on a level of a real movement compared to Martin Luther King Jr. the civil rights movement or the peaceful non-cooperation of Gandhi. The sense of movement was created within the minds of those who had taken to the practices of ISKCON, watching videos of the "World of Hare Krishna", ect. It was predicted that people would first laugh at them, then they would persecute them and then the people would embrace them. I feel that people in general haven't taken them seriously at all.[/quote]

A movement according to Merriam-Webster : "a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end."

Iskcon was and is a movement.

Krishna takes them seriously. Who cares about anyone else ?

DH, in your contributions, please review the topics that are being discussed, rather than reviewing the persons you discuss with.

Wow, Dirty--all guns blazing. But please review your reply to my actual quote. I said, "How it [morality] is lacking," not "There is no morality." I also qualified that with "at least in the forms that I am familiar with." And yes, I stand by what I said but I'm not going to rattle off a list of nefarious activities to prove it.

What I am getting at in the above posts is that I believe members of ISKCON have generally been taught what to think, not how to think, to use the familiar expression. "Do this, this and this; don't do that, that, and that." Once their personal circumstances change, the movement changes, or the world changes, they are often somewhat stuck. And often what is taught is high, absolute, with little between those lofty realms and the persons own background and nature.

I'd suggest that so long as the focus is on performing right actions without a concommitant internal change, it is not far to slide to wrong actions also. Aferall, one can externally perform actions while retaining an errant heart.

Now as far as your statement, "it is hard to conceive of an ethical system that justifies the continuous cheating of people to get their money." Can you give an example of where that takes place?

"Making fun of karmis" - like the Bhagavatam's "dogs, hogs, camels and asses"? Unfortunately many of the abuses and misunderstandings were right there for the taking, just waiting to be picked up in a new environment that lacked the history and background. If some or many of us have "moved on," then I don't think it behooves us to look at others still struggling with that load with anything but a mood of understanding.

I would argue not "cannot think" but "*do not* think." Apart from extreme conditions such as the administering of drugs, torture, prolonged confinement, etc., I don't buy the brainwashing line.

Personally I cannot do anything I dislike for even 10 minutes, what to speak of 10 years. To me that indicates incredible sincerity and/or self-contol or wild gullibility. With the former, there is no loss; with the latter, well...

But I don't see the point in bitterness or taking shots at an easy target. (Is "I'm not into organized religion" the catchphrase of the X generation?) There is no end to people taking that stance, and to what avail? Many do it to prop up their new found faith in another path/guru or sense of freedom, if they give up altogether, but reactionary power is never true power. And that is something we should have learnt from our own early attempts at bhakti.



Yes! Thanks for that reminder. Pity this board doesn't sing. I read a funny song last night - Keno Hare Krsna Nam:

baner pakhi re dhare raklam hrdoy mandire
madhu makha ei hari nam
pakhi re sikhaile sikhe

Bhaktivinode Thakura tells the bird of his mind that he has kept the sweet name of Hari within his heart and that the bird could learn to chant if he were taught.

Where do you get your statistics from? I have been to temples around the world, around India, I don't see ISKCON growing. Yeah, old people leave and new come, is that growing? Centers that had 100, 50 members are down to 10 to 5. Is that a sign of growing? Many Hindus come to temples in the west and in India. I have seen drunken men come and dance in the temple, are they followers of ISKCON? You go to their homes and they have bottles of liquer, deities of various devas and yogis and do other non-standard activities, are these the millions you talk about? Have you been to Ratha-Yatra festivals in North America? Many of the same devotees travel to the various cities where they are being held to give an impression that there's a lot of devotees everywhere. Reality is that the ISKCON movement is a very tiny religious organization of a few thousand hard core followers.

Anand,
Getting back to the original topic, would I have the guts to start a 'movement', no I would not.

For one thing, I don't see any writing on the wall that I should start one.

Secondly, I would not have the guts to exploit people in the name of devotional service in order to maintain the movement.

I would not have the guts to get people to work selflessly throughout their whole live and not provide things for them in return like retirement benefits and health insurance.

I would not have the guts to send them away when they cannot do any service anymore, or when they start a family, or when they get sick.

I would not have the guts to tell them that service to the movement, namely collecting money for it, is the highest means of salvation and is higher than attaining prema bhakti.

I would not have the guts to tell them that all other Vaisnava groups are bogus in order to keep them wrapped up in my organization.

I would not have the guts to tell people to not be attached to family and instead work towards helping their 'real' family within the movement.

Sorry I don't have the guts. What else can say.

Why does a movement have to incorporate all those negative things?

I think what he's trying to say is that he doesn't want to start another ISKCON.

You know any movement or organised religion that doesnt have all these negative things?

Without ISKCON, where would he find something to rail against? ISKCON serves as a great punching bag for some, just as "the sahajiyas" and "the karmis" have done for many in ISKCON.

About movement, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has said the following:

Attraction and motion are present in their pure form within sentient objects as love. The soul is a sentient object. Here, “soul” refers to both the supreme sentient being, the Supersoul, and the minute sentient being, the soul. Their nature is to love. Pure love is found only within the soul. Only a perversion of that pure nature, note the pure nature itself, is to be found within the soul’s reflection – that is, within insentient objects. Hence, pure love is not to be found in any material object of this world. Rather, its perversion, which is mere attraction and motion, is to be found in them.

By the forces of attraction and motion, atoms assemble to form objects. Through attraction, objects are drawn towards each other. Also, on account of their independent motion, the planets revolve around the sun. Anything that is present in a perverted object or perverted nature is also present in the original object in its untainted form.

Independence and attraction to other objects are also always found within the soul. The soul exists in a state of bondage in this world. There are unlimited minute souls, each possessing the nature to love. This can be seen in the attraction all souls exert upon each other. Furthermore, because of their independence, each soul wants to remain separate from the others.

In this material world, every object draws other objects towards it; and these other objects in turn, by virtue of their independent motion, try to remain separate from the object. Big objects draw small objects towards them. The sun is big, attracting the planets and their satellites towards it. But owing to their own independent motion, those planets and satellites remain at a distance from the sun and, attracted by its gravitational force, orbit it. Moreover, the planets’ attraction and motion also assist them in their orbit. What we see in this world is also found in the spiritual world in its unadulterated form.

In the reflected creation, there are five elements, as well as the moon, the sun, lightning and the stars. All of these are present in their original form in Brahmapura, the spiritual world. The difference between the two worlds is that in the spiritual world all the variegated affairs are pure, blissful and perfect, whereas in the material world everything is flawed, incomplete and the cause of happiness and distress.

To love is the fundamental nature of all beings in the spiritual world. Therefore, the poet Candi dasa says:

No one has seen the person who pervades the universe. Only one who knows what love is can attain Him. Priti (love) has three letters and is of three kinds, but when it becomes condensed as a result of continuous bhajana, it will be of only one kind.
The transcendental sun, Sri Krsna, attracts the jivas to orbit Him, and this is eternal rasa.

Conversion: Self-surrender, Deliverance and Transformation

I think this excerpt from a book by Joseph O'Connell might be useful for this discussion.

Anand, reference please.

It's wonderful. Thank you for once again providing a timely elixir.

Jagat,
I found that passage in an article published in the last issue of the magazine Rays of The Harmonist, published by the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. There it says the article is "translated from Sri Gaudiya Patrika, Year 11, Issue 3."

I have a bengali friend named Bimala who lives in Boston and who could probably verify independently the authenticity of this article, but she is always too busy watching... well, never mind what she is doing.

What a poetical (refine) vision...

Jay Radhe Radhe!

Jay Candi Das!
Jay Bhaktivinode!

Is that what you think I'm all about?

For one thing, most of the people who would take punches at karmis and 'sahajiyas' did so out of sheer ignorance or envy. Envy out of karmis wealth and comfortable life style and envy of Vaisnavas for their practices of raganuga bhakti and siddha pranali. In my case I do not envy ISKCON devotees. In fact, I place my head at the feet of any sincere follower of Prabhupada who is truely following the religious system instituted by him, ie. mangal arotik, sixteen rounds, doing full time service in the institution, ect. For those who just move their lips and speak about him and his movement with religious ferver, but who don't actively participate as servant of his organization--I do not have such high regard for such folks. They simple parrot loyalty to him but not in deeds. I would like to see such people put their money where their mouth is and actually do something within the institution. As Prabhupada himself said, "They show their love for me by how much they cooperate with one another after I'm gone."

In my case the 'railing', as you might call it, is done in the same mood as a consumer would alert the public of unethical business practices by an organization. I speak on my experiences and the experiences of others.

I may further add that unlike many of the critics out there who speak against ISKCON; I do have a life outside of ISKCON. I have enough food in the refridgerator on Sundays to not have to go to the Sunday love feast; I enjoy cooking meals for my Sri Radha-Syamasundara. Many of the dry critics of ISKCON out there can't live with ISKCON, but can't live without them. I can live without them.

We often define ourselves negatively. I don't think there is anything wrong with that per se. We often misunderstand the psychological mechanics of such self-definition.

I don't know how many of you have read Betrayal of the Spirit by Nori Muster but it is the sad story of many seekers who come up feeling disillusioned and betrayed.

I had a couple of e-mail exchanges with her. She is a very genuine person. I suggested to her that that inner hankering and searching which prompted her to take a risk and join a society such as Iskcon is very real and that her positive experiences in devotion should not be relegated to the background and forgotten due to her finding that devotion is rare and the institution and many of it's members that she mistakenly placed her faith did not live up to expectations. I suggested to her that because she was duped into accepting something false that she should not conclude that the real thing does not exist.

I very much appreciated Radhapada's post where he expresses his genuine appreciation for devotees who are genuine and not merely 'lip deep' - to coin a phrase from Sridhara Maharaja.

I myself am not at all cynical and I firmly believe in Krsna's words that even a little advancement along this path of devotion can protect one from the most dangerous of fears.

To take up the banner of Mahaprahbu and help to engage everyone you meet in Krsna's service requires a very high degree of genuineness and faith. Otherwise, it it only cheating if the motivation is anything other than seva. But the fact that anyone of us doesn't have the faith to take up this clarion call should not give us liscence to question those who do. And what is the reward for seva? Certainly not life insurance or any other material arrangement.

My son just walked in, so I have to go - I'll take this topic up later.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

Interesting. Anyone in mind or it is just a general statement?



Radheee...!

Yes, I believe he specifies someone, that any in the beginning of the underlined passage.

That any could be the indication of someone specifically. Someone in mind, perhaps.
I mean is that rare?

I just got around to reading this discussion thread. It seems there is so much disagreement among the members of this forum that the possibility of starting a movement is slim. However, Bon Maharaja went to England in the 1930s and did not meet with much success. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to the U.S. in the 1960s and met with much success. The right person, in the right place at the right time presenting the right message? One never knows what will work and what will not work until one tries it. In all fields of endeavor, I see persons who appear to be less qualified succeeding while others who appear to be more qualified do not. (I am not at all implying that Bon is more qualified than Bhaktivedanta.) It is just very hard to find the right combination to start a movement and perhaps the grace of Sri Sri Radha Krishna is the main ingredient.

If we each practice our devotion according to our own conscience and pass it on to others we encounter either intentionally or by chance, perhaps, one never knows, one or more of us may get it right and a movement that is not so riddled with flaws may begin. Edison failed a thousand or two thousand times before succeeding in inventing the light bulb. There's a popular Christian song that says, "It only takes a spark to get a fire going." A spark and the right kindling, a receptive heart.

Just for the record, Bon Maharaja was quite successful in England and Germany, it is just not acknowledged by Prabhupadites who look for quantity rather than quality. Bon Maharaja was addressing the intelligentsia and the high class people, as Bhaktisiddhanta meant it to happen. Obviously there you won't expect masses of followers. He brought back at least two high-class followers who became BS-disciples.

I think nobody doubts that in terms of learning Bon Maharaja was much more qualified than ACBS. All of BS's sannyasis were appalled to learn what ACBS taught his disciples, for instance regarding the fall of the jiva from the spiritual world. When Sridhar Maharaja heard that ACBS had taught that, he was so upset he demanded that the BBT had to publish a book stating the BS' doctrine of the jiva's origin in tathasta-shakti. His insistence was one reason why the Iskconites started to hate him, since he pointed to an error in ACBS teaching. Another one was that ACBS said that his svarup was the one of a gopa, which appears to point to the fact that ACBS was not aware that Gaudiya vaishnavas goal in Vraja-lila was exclusively seva in manjari svarup. Sridhar Maharaja drew more hatred from the fact that he dared to say that ACBS was not everything in the world, and that he himself had his own realizations.

"Apples do not fall far from the tree" (a German saying). ACBS was not insightfulness and growth-orientation personified, so why should his disciples be? This sort of attitude, or lack of it, is a sure dead-end street.



That is, fortunately, what is happening. I would not expect an avalanche though. You can be happy, if you get a newcomer whom you meet at your own terms, to get him or her over the troublesome scandals of this "tree with fallen apples" bearing fruit of their own, some quite acceptable ones, others less so. One scandal are these books, their pseudo-translations and their so-called purports. Another the lies about the great Sanskrit scholar who translated them. All this faking about "the Absolute Truth". On the one side truth, on the other pretense. Difficult to explain to a newcomer who knows nothing. Very difficult.



Totally beside the topic, but an interesting parallel, it was actually the genius Nikolaus Tesla who invented the light bulb. Edison just marketed it. He became the big guru so to speak, but with lies and cover-ups. And the uninformed still believe that he was the inventor. Which shows: Truth does not always make it over the lies, on the grand scale.

And if such is true then, I would say it is a grand waste of time to even bring up the point.

If you mean Tesla versus Edison, then I would say, No, it is a valid point, even if it is a material truth, it is truth worth repeating. GE became one of the world's biggest enterprises on cheating Tesla. Like an avadhut we can find a consoling example in everything, such as in humble Tesla whose desire it was to give the world electricity for free, and not for capitalist gain.

For the better or worse, you can't change any Truth, realtive or absolute. So you just have to learn to live with them.

To apply this topic means for me to learn to address questions regarding the big Orgs shortcomings in a way that puts to rest the doubts arising from reading about it continuously. You know, I am talking about newcomers who have never heard of bhakti before, and then when they hear about it, and on their own make a search on the Internet, find out about the diversity of presentations, the scandals and all. One cannot change the facts, but the interpretations which are expressed in statements that then are true or not true, they are changeable. To learn to live with the facts, but grow along the varying interpretations thereof...

Anyone searching for bhakti, at any stage of the search, will recognize that there is bhakti in being generous towards those who have made mistakes in the name of bhakti.

Unfortunately neither the "big Orgs" nor the biggest Org (a soft Org, according to the article Jagat posted) have done much by way of introducing Westerners to the world of diversity in a balanced manner. Seems we need a Cyb(er)-Org that does that, at least for the online audience. Hmm, perhaps we're here now?

The question then becomes, Are we doing this in a manner that allows for diversity, deals with scandal, and does so in a dignified manner that an innocent seeker would appreciate? Perhaps there are some newcomers who will accept that the big bad Org is solely to blame, but most would more likely be impressed with conviction that is tempered with honest analysis and which doesn't cling to a party line. Afterall, George Bush has been very successful with his open and non-partisan approach.

I think dealing with newcomers always involves a sacrifice--we may need to give up a little of our own need for sanity, rationalization, superiority, righteousness, vindication, etc., for their good. In one sense that is artificial, in another, the ultimate in generosity.

Orgs of the Vaisnava world unite! There are 6 billion people, millions of acres, no end to the resources, and no necessity to deal with any of the above if it is against your beliefs.

Nabadip,

When I spoke of Bon Maharaja's success, I was speaking in terms of starting a movent which is the topic of this discussion. I agree, quality is better than quantity unless you can have both. As I said in a previous post, I respect Bon's scholarship, but frankly have had little exposure to him unfortunately. I was also not claiming that ACBS was more qualified. I simply put that caveat in there so that I would not be accused again of blaspheming ACBS. The point was it's hard to say what will start a movement.

I find your comments about ACBS's scholarship quite interesting.

"Apples do not fall far from the tree" (a German saying) (also American) is true. I certainly connect the corruption of ISKCON to its founder for allowing and encouraging un-vaishnava behavior. I cut myself off from that mess 30 years ago.

I am hoping to be able to teach bhakti yoga again in a manner that intelligent Westerners can accept. I plan to due that without referencing ISKCON. Your pointing out that people nowadays look things up on the internet is something I had not considered. I'll have to be prepared with answers. Thank you.

What I am doing when I mention B.H. Bon Swami's contribution, along with B. Pradip Tirtha Swami's, in coming to the West first, is simply aknowledging the sequence in the order of reality, as it materialized. Those who speak solely of ACBS as the one and only in the West, are in denial of the order in the way reality manifested. Everything that is has predecessor's, everything is handed down: that is after all the idea and message of parampara and of the Bhagavatam. And parampara is a lived thing, at each step there is a person who put his/her energy into life. Those who stress the shiksha parampara over the diksha-line, are in the same kind of denial of reality. It does not matter how insignificant or important my great-great-great-great-grandfather with his wife was, they are the ones who stand there as the keeper and giver of the life, and they deserve to be fully acknowledged. In that way, if I recognize ACBS' coming to the West, I also wish to express gratitude for Bon Swami's coming, as well as Sri Premabharati Saraswati's before that to the U.S. Whether they had a following that caught the attention of the media or not, does not matter.

You know, Subal, this is one of the important aspects of belonging to a parivar (a family) versus those modern orgs which are cut off from their roots: to recognize your spiritual ancestry in real life, the parampara of your gurus in real life. This would include also historical fairness to others whose life-work did not touch us personally.

"Starting a movement", therefore, is really the wrong language game. You are not starting, you are continuing. Those of us who received the first invitation into our search by the modern org will always acknowledge where that impuls in our lives came from. But seeing the greater picture of the order of reality, puts that acknowledgement also into proper perspective.

This was the foremost reasons why I surrendered to his mission.

What's the reference for this?

His prayer on the Jaladuta:

O Lord Krsna, You are my eternal companion. Forgetting You, I have suffered the kicks of maya birth after birth. If today the chance to meet You occurs again, then I will surely be able to rejoin You.

O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstacy. O when will that day be mine?

This has excited quite a bit of debate in Iskcon. Tripurari Maharaj argues that Prabhupada is a priya-narma-sakha like Subal.

Some posts on modernizing the tradition have been split off back into Mina's original thread on modernizing.