Kama-sutra - Split from two other threads

[ Moderator: This thread has ben split from two other threads, namely The Victorian Nightmare As Paragon Of Culture and Elections. Please read them if something seems to be out of context.

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guess who wrote that.

one need look at erotic temple carvings to get an idea of what was the socially acceptable view of sexuality in ancient india,no doubt there are many more examples then the ones extant that were destroyed by muslim invaders.

The Kama sutra also gives an impression.

point being that the modern view in indian religions is for the most part being pushed by those with no real realization of transcendental reality, they want to equate holiness with renunciation and prudishness, which is far from the truth.

I'll bite. Who?

Tripurari

Curiously enough, for over a century since those dastardly Victorians (may they rot in hell everlasting!) discovered it, the Indian Classical society described in the Kama Sutras (and also in the plays of Kalidas perhaps) has been regarded as the ultimate unrepressed women and gay-friendly society. It certainly describes a society which is open about sexuality without any repressive hangups, and which explicitly respects women as an equal partner in the pursuit of earthly happiness more than any other known advanced ancient culture.

The Kama Sutra may itself be responsible for the abandonment of Victorian norms in the 20th Century, because the book clearly describes a society in which moderate popular indulgence coexists with order and prosperity. Europeans up to that point tended to believe that order required discipline and repression, at least since the fall of Rome. The book even provides an alternative evolutionary view of life - kama-artha-dharma-moksha - which Europeans accustomed to seeing these things as in conflict (ie, in the Puritanical view, pleasure is opposed to piety, not conducive to it) found revolutionary.

Of course it may be that the book only describes the behaviour of courtly elites, yet it does not give that impression.

Nowadays people have forgotten just what a powerful effect the Kama Sutra had on Europe and the world after it was translated in the late 1800's - this coincided with the ascendency of Freud, whose anti-Victorian stance and ideas are being discussed here.

So here's a thought: without the Kama Sutra we would not even be having this discussion!

From http://www.jagat.wisewisdoms.com/articles/...ticle.php?id=20

2. Vatsyayana's Kama-sutra(4)

Although the numerous Sanskrit writers on erotic science do not have exactly the same concerns as the poeticians, there is little doubt that they came from the same courtly milieu of noble dilettantism and that there is much overlap of subject matter. It might be said that the eroticians tried to reflect as far as possible the realities of sexual relationships and give practical directions to achieve most perfectly the fulfilment of sexual desires. The poeticians, though indebted to the kama-shastra for much of their erotic detail, (5) are idealistic in their ever increasing search for a "pure" aesthetic experience.

The earliest taxonomy of mistresses (nayika) is to be found in the Kama-sutra, though it appears that Vatsyayana has made two separate classifications. In his first adhikarana, he divides the nayika into three: (6) the first is the kanya or virgin, who may be of two types, either married and not yet deflowered, or unmarried; the second is the punarbhu, the sexually experienced woman(7); the third is the veshya or prostitute. Vatsyayana cites other authors who present a number of additional possible divisions of nayika, but argues that these can all be subsumed under one or the other of his categories. (8) The major classification of nayikas followed by Vatsyayana, however, that which heads the divisions named for them, is fourfold and deals respectively with the kanya (adhikarana iii), the bharya or wife (iv), where he also deals with the punarbhu (in its primary sense as the remarried woman, iv.2.39-59), the para-dara, i.e. wife of another man (v), and the prostitute (vi).

Vatsyayana broaches the subject of these different types of women by defining some moral limits: love (read "sexual activity") with a woman who is of one's own caste, is a virgin and is married according to the scriptural regulations "brings forth sons, is praiseworthy and is publicly acceptable" (i.5.1). The opposite, love of a woman of a higher caste who is married to another man, is prohibited. Love for a woman of lower caste (provided that she has not been ostracized), for a woman who has previously been married (punarbhu) or a prostitute (veshya), is neither prescribed nor proscribed; pleasure is the only criterion. (9) If a man observes that a married woman is habitually unfaithful to her husband, he may have intercourse with her just as he would with a prostitute without any sinful consequences (1.5.6).

Yashodhara in his commentary states that both business (artha) and pleasure (kama) are elements in an adulterous relationship, while pleasure alone governs relations with a prostitute.(10) In his first chapter, Vatsyayana does indeed give a list of rather Machiavellian (or Kautilyan) reasons why one might wish to engage in relations with another's wife: e.g., to use her influence to obtain favours from her husband (i.5.8-10), to conduct a cuckold's revenge on him (i.5.16) and even to kill the man and steal his wealth (i.5.11), etc. This utilitarian attitude has some reflection in later literature, perhaps most notably in Dasa-kumara-carita, where Upaharavarman seduces Kalpasundari in order to kill her husband and restore his own father to the throne. This, he goes so far as to claim, is a religious purpose that will neutralize the sin incurred by the adulterous act." (11)

Further examples of such utilitarianism can be seen in that though Vatsyayana accepts the necessity of caste distinctions for the sake of marriage, for the simple purpose of sexual liaison or adulterous relations such distinctions are not considered important except in the already-mentioned case of a married woman of a higher caste. Again, though he elsewhere further draws the line and lists a number of agamyas, or forbidden women, it seems to be practical rather than moral considerations that lead him to deny the dilettante the wives of a king, a brahmana, a friend or relative. (12)

In adhikarana v, which specifically deals with the para-dara, Vatsyayana begins with a description of the beginnings of love (purva-raga), which corresponds in many of the classical features given by writers on dramatics. The ten degrees of desire (kama-sthanani) described in detail by all the later poeticians starting from Bharata are found here (v.1.4-5). (13) Vatsyayana instructs how to recognize the dissatisfied woman who is a potential object of seduction. Although he accepts the orthodox Indian viewpoint that women are quite susceptible to downfall, he admits (unlike most later authors, especially those of the katha literature) that a woman may not immediately acquiesce and that it is generally a man's task to wear down her resistance.

Another important subject in this adhikarana is the go-between or duti (v.3), who plays a useful role in any love affair, as indeed is the case in most Sanskrit romantic literature. Vatsyayana appears to be following a separation tradition by describing the duti's role in promoting an adulterous affair, where her first jobs is to highlight the unworthiness of the targeted woman's husband: (14)

Saying, "How can a woman of your qualities have a husband like this?" the duti should incite in her a hatred for him. She should say, "He is not worthy of being your servant [what to speak your husband]!"

She should also incite desire in the wife by telling her of the brevity of her youth, glorifying the lover, etc. In Damodara Gupta's Kuttanimata,(15) as well as in Dasa-kumara-carita, the go-between's role is stressed in this genre of affair, though in the latter, Kalpasundari does not need to be convinced of her own husband's unworthiness. The later Krishna cycle contains numerous go-betweens, including the nun Paurnamasi and the sylph Vrinda. Radha and the gopis similarly need little to be convinced of the worthlessness of their "so-called" husbands.

As the Kama-sutra describes the different kinds of nayika, it also names two kinds of nayaka (i.5.28-9): one who reveals his designs to all (sarvalaukika) and one who keeps them secret (pracchanna). Those who act openly are the ishvaras-kings and others who occupy positions of power and authority. Vatsyayana gives numerous examples from the customs of various parts of India to illustrate the practice of droit de seigneur in its many manifestations. (16) In Andhra, for instance, women would go to the king on the tenth day after their marriage carrying some gift for the king, and would leave after being enjoyed by him. Vatsyayana also cites the customs of a number of other countries (Saurashtra, Vidarbha, Aparantaka, Vatsagulmaka), where women openly entered the house of the king for the purpose of offering themselves to him.

Included among these ishvaras, interestingly enough, are the head cattlemen in the vraja, who would commandeer the favours of the cowherd women under their charge. (17) The word "ishvara” in this connection has resonance in its usage in BhP in Shuka's defense of Krishna's apparently adulterous behaviour (x.33.32-34), where the illegal behaviour of an extraordinary individual is justified because his power is like that of omnivorous fire.

In another place, Vatsyayana advises other men how to go about secretly entering the harem of a king or village-chief by dressing as a women or otherwise. (18) Such stratagems, the meat of the 1001 Nights, do not figure much in classical Sanskrit literature prior to the tales of Krishna's attempted trysts with Radha on her home territory.

However antinomian Vatsyayana may seem at times, he both introduces and concludes the subject by showing distaste for adulterous behaviour, in particular disapproving of it in kings. (19) He warns that Dandakya, Indra, Kichaka and Ravana, all met with their destruction as a result of their desire for the wives of other men. (20) Indeed, he claims that the purpose of his discussion of the subject is rather to help men protect their own wives from the unscrupulous rather than to give instructions in the seduction of other men's wives! (21)

Yes, this puts the KS in historical context, and shows Vatsyayana's basic pragmatism, or 'utilitarianism' if you like. And certainly the KS is very pro-marriage. I would go further and say that the apparent 'antinomianism' is just due to the author's trying for comprehensiveness and pragmatic relevance, even to the point of self-contradiction.

But what you have not emphasised here is that KS celebrates mutual conjugal happiness as the basis of dharmic good, rather than self-negating obedience of the wife. Where else in the ancient world was this approach urged? Or even in the modern world before fairly recently? Even the idea that a woman ought to enjoy conjugal life as much as a man was shocking to Victorians, who regarded this as perverse.

***
You are perhaps concerned at descriptions of droit de seigneur in KS, but people nowadays perhaps forget how common this was universally in various forms, even up to the time of our grandparents in some cases. Also I am not convinced, given for example the phenomenon of 'rock groupies' or even Bill and Monica, that such things were always or even often just the abuse of power, it seems to be more complex than that!

How come people only seem to take the hot and heavy stuff from KS? This also sounds pretty good:



I feel cheated!

What have I said about Sri Radha that was wrong?
That she is expert in the Kama Shashtras?
That's the words of Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami, not me!

I cant take the Kama sutra seriously ,who knows how much interpolation
there has been ,im sure there are various versions floating around,
i've read some stuff that is pretty obnoxious and silly that i wont repeat,
either way it's not the boss of me.

Precisely the point we are making. The Kama Sutra seems, however, to be descriptive as well as prescriptive, so it is quite a useful book. Be suspicious, Dirty Hariji, of idyllic golden ages. The ideal reveals itself incrementally in our own minds first, and then, if we are truly inspired, we can bring a few flourishes from that ideal into the world that surrounds us. It's not an easy thing at all, but that is hopefully the point. (Speaking as a total failure, admittedly.)

As to Kama-sastra, etc. Here is a section from "Rasa Darshan" by Ananta Das Pandit. This also relates to the question of mundane and transcendental rasas, so you can see where Panditji comes down on this question. (This is a first draft, so don't expect too much.)

As I write, by the way, I am listening to CBC "In Performance." The artist is Autorikshaw from Toronto, an "Indo-jazz fusion" group doing a modern version of something with "venu gopala" in it. Pretty good stuff.

---

26. High quality works of mundane literature can also be helpful in appreciating the transcendental sentiments

It is occasionally seen in this world that even people of a very dry temperament are moved by works of art and literature that are of high quality. It thus stands to reason that those connoisseurs of art and literature who have a high standard of culture ordinary people cannot even conceive experience much deeper sentiments when appreciating such works. For example, the Kadambari of Bana contains descriptions of separation that are very moving and can therefore be considered helpful in appreciating the transcendental sentiments of Krishna-lila. Kalidas’s Malati-madhava is similarly a particularly relishable text. In his book Prema-pattana, Rasikottamsa has particularly named these two works as favorable to the cultivation of the transcendental madhura-rasa. The contribution that works such as these make to preparing one culturally for the relishing of the pure joy and unequalled sentiments found in the appreciation of the pastimes of the divine lover and beloved in their romantic love affairs is thus not insignificant.

On the other hand, there are a great number of devotees who think that reading or studying such mundane works is inimical to the cultivation of devotion. It is our opinion that anyone who has taken up the practice of bhakti as a result of the association and merciful blessings of a great devotee, which is the root cause of bhakti, and whose previous conditioning in the experience of relishing bhakti rasa has been somewhat awakened, will find that such literature may be helpful in cultivating spiritual rasa rather than being destructive or inimical to such culture. In the Bhagavatam, the Avadhuta (11th Canto) instructs us that the natural activities of the birds and beasts contain lessons about spiritual life, and thus he treated them as his gurus and considered himself most fortunate to have come into contact with them. Even Jiva Goswami, one of our most important acharyas, writes in his Sarva-samvadini to the Priti-sandarbha—

kAvyAlaGkAra-kAma-tantra-gAndharva-kalAs tu
tat-tac-carita-mAdhuryAnubhava-vaiduSya-siddheH |

The study of mundane literature and literary criticism, of erotics like the Kama-sutra of Vatsyayana, music and other arts, may all be used by the wise as aids to experiencing the sweetness of the activities of the Supreme Lord and his associates.

Srila Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur similarly writes in his Surata-kathamritam (7)—

smara-narapati-vara-rAjye dharmaH zarma-prado’yam AdiSTaH
vatsyAyana-muni-nirmita-paddhaty-uktAnusAreNa hi

This is the most beneficial dharma that rules in this, the great kingdom of Cupid, the god of love. It has been ordained in accordance with the rules of the rulebook composed by Vatsyayana Muni.

So, Krishna says, "I am only following the laws of the kingdom..."

Two acharyas are considered particularly authoritative--Bharata Muni and Vatsyayana. The above quote from Jiva Goswami is in the context of transcendental poetry and erotics, otherwise his reference would not make sense. But the example of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the incarnation of the devotional sentiment personified, is particularly instructive. He recited the following verse from Kavya-prakasa, a work of mundane poetics, but extracted and relished the particular transcendental rasa that he was able to find there.

yaH kaumAra-haraH sa eva hi varas tA eva caitra-kSapAs
te conmIlita-mAlatI-surabhayaH prauDhAH kadambAnilAH |
sA caivAsmi tathApi tatra surata-vyApAra-lIlA-vidhau
revA-rodhasi vetasI-taru-tale cetaH samutkaNThate

He who took my maidenhead is verily
he who is here today as my bridegroom.
And these are the same moonlit nights of spring,
when the impetuous, fragrant breezes
are heavy with the scent of newly blossoming jasmine.
And I too am the same person,
Yet my unsatisfied mind yearns for the reedbeds
by the banks of the stream where we were initiated
into the joyful games of love.

Mahaprabhu was constantly absorbed in Radharani's mood and so that was his consciousness as he relished this verse. But no one else was able to comprehend what he was experiencing. Only his most intimate associate Svarupa Goswami could understand his purpose and would sing Bengali verses that matched the Lord's mood and increased his delight. By the Lord's mercy, Srila Rupa Goswami also understood the reason behind the Lord recital of this verse and wrote a pastiche that revealed it to the devotional community at large. His verse was the following:

priyaH so’yaM kRSNaH sahacari kurukSetra-militas
tathAhaM sA rAdhA tad idam ubhayoH saGgama-sukham
tathApy antaH-khelan-madhura-muralI-paJcama-juSe
mano me kAlindI-pulina-vipinAya spRhayati

O companion! This is the same beloved Krishna
meeting me here in Kurukshetra;
and I am the same Radha;
both of us are feeling the same joy of union.
And yet, my mind hankers for the forest
by the banks of the Yamuna,
where the fifth note of his flute
reverberated sweetly within my heart.

Krishna Das Kaviraj explains:

O bhaktas! Hear the abridged version of this verse's meaning. The mood of the Lord on seeing Lord Jagannath was like that of Radharani seeing Krishna at Kurukshetra. Even though she had found him after a long separation, she thought as follows: "Here is Krishna dressed as a king, surrounded by elephants, horses and armies of attendants. Where is his simple cowherd apparel and where is the private intimacy of Vrindavan forest? If I could have that feeling, that Krishna and that Vrindavan all over again, then my heartfelt desire would be truly fulfilled.

So Mahaprabhu set the example of finding the transcendental mood of Vrindavan in a verse of mundane poetry. By so doing he showed that select portions of this mundane poetry, which follow the appropriate spirit that is being sought, can be helpful in cultivating and tasting the specifically devotional sentiments and are not necessarily destructive or dangerous.

Apane kari AsvAdane zikhAila bhakta-gaNe
prema-cintAmaNira prabhu dhani

Himself relishing these rasas, the Lord taught his devotees how to do the same. The Lord was rich with the priceless jewels of prema.

Some of you have been upset over this statement of Betal ji: "Sri Radhaji is expert in the Kama-shastras." Some have even considered it obnoxious. However, you'll find kAma-zAstra discussed in various places in connection with the lIlA of zrI-yugala in the writings of our acaryas.

Krishnadas Kaviraja describes in his Govinda-lilamritam:

tAruNya-bhaTTa-gurutaH samadhIta-kAma-
nyAyAdi-zAstra-cayayA sa sa-tIrthayApi |
citraM na tan-nija-jayAya tayodagRhnAn
naiyAyiko hi guruNApi vivAdam icchet || 9.21 ||

"Radha and Krsna went to consult Tarunya Bhatta, the professor of kama sastra, eager to study under Him. Although They were classmates, they still wanted to argue with each other. There is no fault in this, nor is this astonishing, for students of logic want to argue even with their own teacher!"

Of course, here Tarunya Bhatta is playfully used to indicate their submission to the lord (bhaTTa) of the passions of their youthfulness (tAruNya). There is, however, also a more literal context for kAma-zAstra in the pastimes of zrI-yugala.

In Rupa's Ujjvala-nilamani (2.6), where the vIta (associates of Krishna who assist him in dressing, and so forth) are described as kAma-tantra-kalA-vedI. Both Vishnudas and Visvanatha confirm that they are expert in various Kama-tantra and Kama-shastra (Vishnudas: kAma-tantra-kAlA kAma-zAstra-nIti-vettA). In Ksanada-giti-cintamani, Visvanatha speaks of the dUti (gopI-messengers of Radha) as ardent students of kAma-zAstra, who extract and teach the nectarine mantras therein to Sri Radha. If their assistants are well-versed in Kama-shastra, how could they be any less themselves?

If you read the ninth chapter of his Krishna-bhavanamritam, you'll find Kundalata describing (9.35) how both Radha and Krishna are learned in the ways of Cupid. In the following verse (36), Radha teases Kundalata, relating how she allegedly has been teaching Kama-shastras to him. In verse 38, Krishna challenges Visakha, who he claims is very accomplished in various erotic duties, to come and meet him in a solitary place to test the accuracy of his pronounciation of the various the mantras from Vatsyayana's manual. You'll also find kAma-zAstra mentioned in connection with pUrva-rAga in Visvanatha's tIka on Vidagdha Madhava (178).

That being said, I do not recommend reading some of the more esoteric texts of Visvanatha to those of you who are inconvenient with the idea that there might be more to the relationship of our worshipable lovers than glances from the corners of their eyes. It is your prerogative to not delve into such topics, if you so wish. However, if you are not educated in such matters, please do not argue over them.

A curious discovery from Swami Tripurari:


Anyone care to dig up the reference from Vaisnava-tosani?

There is a very relishable and humorous passage in Mukta-carita also, rather lengthy. But I have no more time today. Maybe tomorrow. The work that I remember most vividly is Prabodhananda's commentary to Gita Govinda, in which he seems to find a reference to a different sexual position from Kama Sutra in almost every other verse, with quotes and everything. Rather spicy stuff from the archetypal "Tridandi Sannyasi."

i don't think the point you were making as in be wary of "idyllic"golden ages
is what i was refering to, I have seen things in the Kama Sutra that
are stupid and foolish , these things in my vision are interpolations,
they have to do with certain attitudes and acts that would be considered
extremely unerotic and bizarre to say the least, I don't blame the
Kama Sutra for these obvious additions by cretinous individuals
who have proclivities and enthusiasm for certain activities which would
be see as barbaric even by todays standards and conversely there
is disdain for other activities which are considered normal by any
normal person,all in all it's a very uneven book,at least the
parts that attempt to teach standards of what is acceptable
and what is not, really laughable stuff.

So I am not suspicious of an idyllic time in the past, just the Kama Sutra,
I dont know what you refer to with the rest of that paragraph,or what
"ideal" you are thinking about.

As for the other stuff about reading or hearing or seeing "mundane"
artistic endeavors and trying to "taste" some so called mood
of Radha for Krishna or vice versa, I am not so exalted
to try and utilize the arts for such a purpose,whenever I
appreciate a song or some other entertainment I appreciate
the source and controller of the piece ,the real author,
as far as trying to taste some mood of seperation a la
Radha for Krishna,to me that entire subject is completely
misunderstood by just about everyone i have ever heard
who tries to teach me,leaving me chuckling and thinking
"If they only knew".

That is an easy way out--to blame nasty-minded interpolators for the parts you don't like.

If you don't mind, Dirty Hariji, now that we are interacting, and now that I am beginning to find your ideas somewhat complex, I'd like to find out a little more about you. Would you like to tell us a little bit--primarily about your life experience, what is your relationship to Krishna consciousness, what events have led to your new wisdom, and what you think are the sambandha, abhidheya and proyajana of spiritual life.

It would be much appreciated. Some of us have given somewhat more detailed profiles and you can learn about us there. I think it is helpful in seeing beyond the cut and thrust of so many posts, which are only slices of time.

Vishwanath to 15.188-189:

...yA sevA vAtsyAyana-bharata-kalA-zAstrokta-rItyA AcaraNaM tayeti pazuvac chRGgAre vyAvRttaH |

"The kind of sexual relations engaged in follow the methods described in Vatsyayana and Bharata's scriptures, which indicates that these are refined activities and not merely animal coupling."

tiryak-kSipta-calad-dRgaJcala-rucir lAsyollasad-bhrU-latA
kundAbha-smita-candrikojjvala-mukhI gaNDocchalat-kuNDalA |
kandarpAgama-siddha-mantra-gahanAm ardhaM duhAnA giraM
hAriNy adya harer jahAra hRdayaM rAdhA vilAsormibhiH ||

With the beauty of her glances fleetingly cast sideways,
her eyebrows--vines--shining in their dance,
her face radiant with the moonlight of her jasmine smile,
her earrings swinging bright against her cheeks--

half uttering words,
deep as perfect mantras
learned from Kama's texts

Ravishing Radha has now stolen Hari's heart
with these tides of erotic gestures. UN 4.42

(Nitai's translation)

vezopacAra-kuzalo dhUrto goSThI-vizAradaH
kAma-tantra-kalA-vedI viTa ity abhidhIyate
The associates of Krishna include the vita, who is described as being something of a rascal, but who is clever in knowing what clothes to wear, what gifts to bring, he is a good conversationalist and conversant with the arts and practices of the Kama shastra. (UN 2.5)

A bit different explanation:

(1) Vishnudas: kAma-tantra-kAlA kAma-zAstra-nIti-vettA (pretty much as given)

(2) Vishwanath : kAma-tantra-sambandhinyaH kalAH strI-vazIkAra-mohana-mantrauSadhAdi-prayogAH ("i.e., the methods described in the Kama-tantra such as medicines or spells that are used to enchant or make women fall in love with someone."

I'll be honest and admit that I thought there were more references. I suppose that as the GGM expands more and more things will show up. For instance, the Rasa Lila commentaries from the Bhagavatam, completion of Ujjvala-nilamani, etc.

Is this verse suggesting that a human being can actually get spiritual (bliss) understanding by engaging in sexual activities? Can sex be a way of spiritual realization at all?

As expected, more will turn up--Vishwanath to UN 7.79--

yad iyaM kandarpa-zAstreSu mahA-pravINA tvayA parama-vIreNApIyaM durjayeti jAnIhIti bhAvaH |

"You should know that because my sakhi is a great expert in the kama-shastras, even a great hero like yourself will find her difficult to defeat."

kandarpAgama-vidyA-
paTur iha nibhRtaM sva-ziSyasya |
svAGgAny aGge nyasyati
yA tAM kathayAzu tuGgavidyeyam || Govinda-lilamrita 13.109 ||

[Krishna, in describing the aSTa-sakhI in humorous ways:] "She, who is clever in the wisdom of the books of Eros, and who in solitude laid down her body unto the body of a disciple of hers, is known as Tungavidya."

Not when you consider this..........

The commentary on this verse interprets "svAGgAny aGge nyasyati" as "mamAGge yA svAGgAni nyasyati". So it is on Krishna's body that she is offering up the body of her disciple.

Admittedly, Haridas Shastri doesn't translate it that way (apne ziSya ke aGga par apnA aGga arpaN kar detI hai). This is, BTW, Krishna quizzing Radha and her answering.

Doesn't this refer to Mukta Charit wherein Tungvidya as Krishna's guru offers her body to Him?

Where would that be in Mukta Carita?

It's a fairly long section. In Dasarath Suta's translation, it would be chapter 4. His translation is based on a Bengali translation, but I am looking at it and it seems that he has some good ideas. Some of the more complex jokes based on Sanskrit puns seem to be left out.

The chapter is a bit of a hoot, making fun of Sanskrit learning in several fields, including grammar (where basic terms are given a sexual connotation). It ends with instructions on ritual, with Krishna making fun of Tungavidya, suggesting that she initiate Krishna in some kind of Tantric ritual.

I once did a translation, which I am afraid may be circulating, but is in need of revision. I think I'll try to do this section over the next couple of days.

In the transliterated GGM version, this section begins at the top of page 17 and continues to the bottom of page 22.

So are the Uzbek secret police visiting these forums now?



Kailasa providing the translations, maybe?

365 days, how many hours per? That too is a real hoot. NEHKE could not do better--if it were only in the realm of the imagination.

The last sentence sounds reasonable.

Unfortunately other reports on the same site indicate that private homes are also not always safe:



Of course, the HK devotees, being tea-totallers, can't even take shelter of such meetings!

Kind of ironic that the dean of a school of natural sciences seems so opposed to vigorous sexual activity, isn't it? Methinks, he feels a little threatened.

Sounded like he was a muslim.

By the way I have read somewhere that Ibn Sina (Avicenna), the famous doctor, philosopher, and Aristotle-transmitter, prescribed in one of his publications that muslim men should fully satisfy their women sexually.

Since Muslims have their strictly regulated prayer-times, and holy days, it is imaginable that they might feel a bit threatened by more flexible approaches to human life.

Not only regulated muslims but ANYONE who is strictly regimented feels that way.

How would you know?

You should try regulation sometime. You might like it.

One may also be strictly regimented and have actually risen beyond such petty attitudes. That is also possible.

If we look at our modern version of the Kama Sutra - pornography in literature and the cinema, we see the backlash of repression of sexuality by the religious right. For example, on account of the stigma attached to being an actor in an adult film, women are exploited and victimized as they are drawn into a seedy underworld as big corporations hide behind the profits they make off of human suffering. It is kind of like the illegal trafficking in drugs, which is run by organized crime, as opposed to the sale of liquor, which is regulated and taxed by the government. The ancient brothels that were legal institutions make more sense than the current state of affairs. OK, so what's my point? That chastity as a virtue is fine, but the attempt to enforce it over the past several centureis has not been all that successful.

Certainly, I would take the position that sexuality is not in and of itself detrimental to bhakti. Having a wet dream or even an illicit affair does not condemn you forever to exclusion.

I am currently editing a book by Krishna Dharma. Here is a story he dug up from the Varaha Purana about the Yamuna. Now edited.

---

Yamuna Destroys All Karma

In the Varaha Purana there is a story that illustrates the spiritual benefits of bathing in the Yamuna. Long ago, a Brahmin couple making its home in the Panchala region had six children, five sons and one daughter. While the daughter was still only a baby, the eldest of the five sons, Devadatta, left home and went traveling in search of wealth. Time passed and he did not return.

The daughter, Tilottama, grew into a beautiful young woman and got married. Her husband died soon after, however, and she was left a young widow. In grief she took the cremated remains of her husband to Mathura, where the Yamuna flows, having heard that anyone whose ashes were deposited in that river would attain salvation. She then decided to remain in that holy town for some time, engaging in penance and religious practices.

Tilottama was fair complexioned with an abundance of dark curly hair. Her body was shapely, with tapering thighs, a thin waist and full breasts. With a graceful neck, sparkling teeth, red lips and eyes like lotus petals, her beauty rivaled even the celestial nymphs known as apsaras. Any man who saw her would be astounded and stand perfectly still like a painted picture, his eyes fixed on her form.

Tilottama spent her days bathing in the Yamuna and meditating on its banks. One day a group of courtesans who were employed by an inn in the town saw her and tried to induce her to join them. They said, “Do not waste your youth and beauty in this way. Enjoy life while you can. You can perform penances later, when your youth is gone.”

Tilottama was gradually swayed by their coaxing and began to spend time at the inn. She learned the arts of the courtesan, becoming expert in music and dance. Before long she was surrounded by all manner of men and began to enjoy with anyone who offered her sufficient wealth.

When Tilottama had fully committed herself to this way of life, her brother Devadatta arrived in Mathura. In the course of his travels he had become a wealthy man, and he was accompanied by a large retinue of followers. During the day, he and his men set up their camp near the Yamuna, and in the evening they went to the inn for refreshment. There Devadatta saw Tilottama and was immediately struck by the arrows of desire.

Devadatta spoke with the matron of the inn, “Please arrange for me to enjoy the company of this woman. I will bestow gold, jewels and expensive clothes on you both in profusion.”

The matron set up their liaison and the brother and sister, not knowing each other's identity, passed the night in sensual pleasures. Days passed in this way, and the attachment of the two lovers increased. Devadatta gave Tilottama jeweled chains, bangles, perfumes and all manner of other gifts. Devadatta would spend the nights with her, return each morning to his tent, bathe in the Yamuna, and then go about his daily business.

A sage named Sumantu who lived by the river observed Devadatta follow this routine. One day, after it had been going on for some time, the sage spoke to him.

“Good sir, tell me who you are. Where are you from? What do you do here during the day and the night?”

“My name is Devadatta. I am from Panchala. I have come here on business and I spend my nights in the town. During the day I visit the temple of Shiva and I also worship this sacred river.”

Sumantu said, “I have been watching you come to this river and bathe every day and I have observed something quite wonderful. With my spiritual vision, I am able to see your subtle body. In the morning when you arrive, it is covered by the dark aura of sin that would in time produce great suffering. But when you come out of the Yamuna after bathing, your subtle body shines like that of a celestial being.”

The sage asked him to consider if he was committing some immoral act. “Perhaps you are unwittingly doing something wrong. Try to think what it might be. It appears to be very grievous.”

Devadatta was surprised. Sleeping with a courtesan was not good, but it was hardly a heinous sin. What did the sage mean? He was uncertain. “I cannot think what it might be,” he answered him.

When he was with Tilottama that night, Devadatta began to make enquiries. “Tell me a little bit about your life, O beautiful one. Whose daughter are you?”

Tilottama smiled, but made no reply. Devadatta pressed her to answer, but she kept silent, too ashamed to tell him that she was a Brahmin’s daughter.

A few days passed and Devadatta kept asking. Finally he threatened to give up his life if she did not give him a reply. Tilottama relented and said, “I was the youngest daughter of a Brahmin in Panchala. At a young age I became a widow and traveled here. Since then I have turned to prostitution. Alas, I have brought disgrace on my family by my sin. “

As the tearful Tilottama gave him more details about her family, the truth gradually began to dawn on Devadatta. She was his sister. Overcome by shame, he lost consciousness and fell to the ground. Tilottama wiped his face with cool water and revived him. She then asked him why he was so distressed.

“I am your older brother. Without knowing it, we have been committing incest again and again. Oh, what should I do now? How can I be released from this sin? I am fit only for hell.”

Now it was Tilottama’s turn to faint from the shock of what she had heard. When she came back to consciousness, she exclaimed, “How wretched am I! Who could be a worse sinner than I? I have slept with my own brother.”

After consulting with various priests, Devadatta concluded that there was only way to expiate his sin. “I shall enter blazing fire and give up this body,” he said.

Tilottama decided to follow him into the flames. She gave away all her jewels, clothes and ornaments and her brother donated his wealth to the Brahmins. They then prepared a pyre on the bank of the Yamuna, and after bathing in the river, set light to the wood. As they were about to enter the fire, however, the sage Sumantu ran up to them.

“Stop! There is no need for this.”

Devadatta bowed at his feet. “Great sage, your vision was unfailing. The sin you perceived has come to light: it is incest. Ever since I arrived in this holy city of Mathura, I have been lying with my own sister. Now I must purify myself by entering fire.”

Just then a voice thundered from the heavens. “Desist! Do not go into the fire. You are both free of all sin. This is the place where Krishna played and it has no equal on earth. Sins committed elsewhere are destroyed simply by visiting this holy land of Mathura. Sins committed here stick to one like powerful glue, but bathing in this sacred river destroys even those. All karmic reactions are dissolved in the Yamuna, leaving one eligible for the highest liberation.”

Astonished, both Devadatta and his sister gave up their intention of killing themselves and continued to live peacefully in Mathura, turning to a life of devotion.

Stopping by the library and having a copy of Sri Sri Radha Rasa Sudhanidhi with me, I thought, “why not to type this beautiful commentary of Srila Ananta Das Pandita and share with devotees.”


TAN NAH PRATIKSANA CAMATKRTA CARU LILA
LAVANYA MOHANA MAHA MADHURANGA BHANGI
RADHANAMAM HI MADHURANGA KALA NIDHANAM

"When will Sri Radha’s moonlike face that is like the matchless quintessence of the ocean of nectar and whose astonishing playful elegance causes Mohana (enchanting Krishna) to stand in His sweet threefold bending form, become manifest to us?"

Commentary: In the previous verse Sripada saw his Isvari as the nikunja devi. Devi means “the worshiped”. It is even more astonishing when Rasikendra Mauli (Krishna, the king of relishers) worships Radhika in the kunja as when the sakhis and the manjaris do it. She is called devi because even rasika sekhara serves Her. When Radha and Krishna enter the Kunja, Krishna lovingly wants to serve Priyaji in different ways, so the maidservants bring Him a pincher of water. With the water from that pincher Krishna washes Priyaji’s lotus feet and dries them with His yellow dhoti. The maidservants understanding Syama’s mind bring flowers. Krishna offers a handful of flowers at Swamini’s lotus feet, chants jay premamayi! And then offers His obeisance while tears of love flow His eyes. Pada sparsa rasotsavam pranatibhih (verse 61): Touching Radhika’s feet and bowing down to them is like a festival of rasa for Krishna. How beautiful Srimat’s face is when She looks at Krishna’s face at that time! How many erotic pastimes Her beautiful face revels! How enchanting are the movements of Her eyes and Her eye browns!

Many, many thanks to the translator!


Radhe !

He also said that he found out that Krishna devotees allegedly read the Kama Sutra from his own "anonymous sources".

So, Ichanov's been to this thread.

In his commentary to UN 8.24, Vishwanath makes a clear reference to the "hastini" and "mrigi" type nayikas, which as you all know, I am sure, refers to the size of a woman's treasure house. Cf. Kama Sutra 2.6

I read through this discussion last night and would like to make a few comments. Bhaktivedanta Swami said, "Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." If one is in Krishna consciousness, one can live in, work and enjoy the pleasures of the material world without attachment. Indeed, the material world becomes spiritualized when one is engaged in service of Krishna. Therefore, one can engage in household life and enjoy the material pleasures of life, including sex, without them being an impediment to one's spiritual consciousness. If one sees Radha and Krishna in everything and everyone, one is already living in the spiritual world. God is in everything and everything is in God which is called panentheism. Everything is God's energy. The spiritual world is not some far off place to be experienced after death. It is here and now in our midst. Those engaged in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna throughout the day can testify to this.

Therefore, why the emphasis on renunciation and celibacy? Sri Chaitanya took sannyasa at the age of 23. He was warned not to because it would be too hard to maintain. He was God and managed to do it. I took sannyasa at 23. I am a jiva and was not able to maintain it.

Why not have it all? Why not enjoy this material world, honor and maintain our bodies as temples of God and enjoy the spiritual world all at the same time? If our philosophy is achintya bedabeda tatva why emphasize the dualism rather than the non-dualism? Why can't householders be gurus as was mentioned in another discussion? Why do world denying renunciates dominate religious and spiritual discussion? Why is celibacy considered better than sexuality when we worship a sexual God and we are parts and parcels of God containing all God's qualities? Everything is a gift of God. Why not enjoy it?

Peace,
Subal

I am entirely with you here, Subal. You may have seen that Narasingha Maharaj found my suggestion that "yukta-vairagya" should extend to sexuality to be a huge problem. The thing is that the Gaudiya Math has instilled a horror of Sahajiyaism to such a great extent that they refuse to take the sexuality of the Divine Couple at face value.

It is somewhat more complex than a simple valorization of sexual life--because sex can indeed be a horror story--rape in its myriad forms. I feel that this needs to be explored, despite the visceral negative reaction of the Gaudiya Math and to some extent other orthodox lines. Similarly, I don't think that we are going into a kind of sexual idolatry.

I'll have to go back to the Mukta-carita I've been promising. Also have Rasa-darshan I've been promising. Getting overextended...

very nice.
thank you, dear Subal.

where does this strange feeling of "having done something wrong" come from, even when one lives in a wonderful relationship with a woman?

i never had that feeling before joining ISKCON ( but never had a sexual relationship before ISKCON either!).

why is a sexual relationship based on a wonderful relationship of friendship, understanding and love considered "evil" or "against GOD" in nearly all forms of religion?

sure, it can enforce the binding chain to this mortal world, but only by the misuse of it and by bad consciousness.

Joy Radhe!

PS:

how to get rid of all that "wrong/guilt/fear/evil"-crap in the mind in regards to healthy sexuality?

in one little beautiful book by Raihana Tyabji (THe Heart of a gopi), i found the following:

(a talk in her gopi form with her husband)

its about that she loves Krishna maybe more then her husband, and her husband is worried.




that is a wonderful point.

I was just rewriting my brochure and referenced a brochure I wrote 22 years ago. In it, I used the following quote from Chaitanya Charitamrita: "Keep these words constantly before your mind: 'Do not practice hypocritical asceticism like the monkey, to be seen by the people. Enjoy the things of the world which are proper to enjoy without being attached to them. Cultivate constant purity of the heart. In external conduct, comply with the ordinary conventions of civilized society. Sri Krishna will then deliver you very soon.'" Sorry I don't have chapter, verse and edition.

However, I think this pertains well to this discussion, and I have found it a good philosophy to live by.

This is Mahaprabhu's instruction to Raghunath das, I believe. This was when Raghunath was expressing his desire to give up his family life and follow the Lord. He did eventually leave and led a life of renunciation beyond what we can imagine, much less follow.

We see in Chaitanya-charitamrita that Mahaprabhu encouraged everyone to live in the situation that was best for them. When Sivananda's wife had babies, Mahaprabhu celebrated it. There's no evidence to suggest that the conceptions were immaculate except in the sense that Sivananda and his wife were pure devotees.

Bhaktivedanta Swami encouraged a high standard of self abnegation in his disciples in hopes that they could avoid distractions. We have seen that the immediate result was not always healthy. Many who were able to follow it may have done so on the basis of previous samskara (either healthy or not), some by force of will. Some did so happily, others became sour. Many felt broken by their inability to do so. I personally would like to have seen steadier, healthier personal and spiritual growth in all of us. As my older daughter (now 27) commented when an old friend expressed some disappointment that she now has a boyfriend, it seems unfortunate for a devotee to define another devotee by their sexuality. And I'm also reminded of a friend who, shortly after leaving the sannyasa ashram, commented that, after working hard all day we seem to have a need for some pleasure.

I just posted this at another forum and after reading the previous few post here I decided it is relevant to this discussion, it's archived at the copy and paste forum exodus from ISKCON

How about the Copy & Paste area, and a link here?

[quote=Babhru,Mar 30 2004, 10:11 PM] [QUOTE=I'm also reminded of a friend who, shortly after leaving the sannyasa ashram, commented that, after working hard all day we seem to have a need for some pleasure. [/quote]
That sure resonates with me. I thought "If I have to engage in administration, politics and fund raising, I want to get some of the benefits of those activities. Why be a sannyasi if I have to do this kind of work? Perhaps Srila Prabhupada is advanced enough to do this, but I'm not and if I have to be a sannyasi and do this then give me enough grace to be able to do it."

Jaya Radhe, Subalji.

Running the risk of hinting at mainly Buddhist concepts, one of the starkest differences between the spiritual and material worlds are the nature of the dealing therein; the dealings in the spiritual world are full of joy and bliss, while the dealings in the material world are inherently tainted and in most cases lead to suffering, misery and general disappointment. An interesting verse from Manu-samhita states: "Desire is never extinguished by the enjoyment of desired objects; it only grows stronger like a fire (fed) with clarified butter." [MS 2.94]

The celibacy/sexuality aspect is an inherent part of serious spirituality in that the vital energies of the body are conserved for other purposes. In the case of sex, for example, if the sex drive/energy is diverted to other purposes then that is more beneficial for the sadhaka. The resultant ojas will be of a very high quality and will even contribute to bodily health, while reckless dissipation eventually leads to symptoms of tiredness, ill health or even death in extreme cases.
In practical terms, observation leaves a lot to be desired. But on the whole, the energies of the body would most likely need to be conserved in order to contribute to what is known as the body's bhutagni, the spiritual fire. Dissipation = Weak fire.

On the other hand, consider this other quote from Manu-samhita: "There is no sin in eating meat, in (drinking) spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards." [MS 5.56]

All very thoughtful..

I fully agree with you. This last quote, however, is not for those on a Vaishnava level.

Gaurasundaraji,

I agree with what you say, especially the last quote which I fully agree with and think it is relevant to vaishnavas. I do not promote meat eating, drinking and especially not uncontrolled promiscuous sex. I do believe a balanced life of moderation in a committed loving relationship is healthy and not detrimental to spiritual growth. I think celibacy is best for some or at certain times in one's life, but I disagree with encouraging everyone to be celibate or the idea that unless one is celibate and renounced from all material enjoyments one cannot attain full realization. One can be in the world and enjoy the pleasures of the world in a spirit of detachment. Given a choice, I would much rather be in Goloka Vrindaban. I look forward to that day.

Jai Radhe,
Subal

Oh! I'm sorry, I was not insinuating that you approve of meat-eating, etc. And yes I also agree that celibacy is not to be forced as that may result in passive or aggressive forms of deviancy on many levels. Personally I take it as an ideal to aspire for.

I'll have to think about that latter one a little more as well as see if those ideas really do exist in the Kama-sutra. I'll also have to check the Vaishnava Toshani commentaries to 10.47.14 (bhramara-gita), on which the above verses from Gopala Champu are based. (2.11.26-27)

Interestingly, the first verse brings echoes of ACBSP's famous statement about women enjoying rape. But I think that "rape" was perhaps too strong a word for sustained and great interest, though of course that can be extremely annoying, too. Let's put it this way: If she likes the guy, she hopes he will sustain his interest, even though she may test him by playing games.

According to Monier Williams DharSa means violation of a woman. That seems to be rape to me. Secondly, what a weird meter is there in these verses. What is the meter and are they written by Vatsyayana himself?

(1) These are not Vatsyayana's verses, but from a paraphrasing of Radharani's bhramara-gita, likely based on Sanatana's Vaishnava Toshani, which I haven't got the time to go into right now.

(2) These are AryA metres, of which four kinds are used by Jiva Goswami:
AryA, gIti, upagIti and udgIti. There is a fifth, AryA-gIti, which I don't think I ever came across in Gopala Champu. These are all explained in the back of Apte's dictionary. Do you have that? Of these two, the first is udgIti, the second gIti.

(3) I would say that the meaning of dharSaNa you have cited is obviously current usage. However, the word is etymologically related to dhRSTa, as in the dhRSTa-nAyaka. The definition of that is, I am sure you will agree, somewhat different. It does not mean "rapist", but a bold, courageous, confident, forward, presumptuous, or even impudent, rude, shameless, insolent lover. The idea of aggressive insistence is there, but not cruelty.

By the way, thanks to Malika Devi, Gopala Champu Uttara-11 Bhramara-gita is now available on GGM.

! ! Sanatan Gosvami? ? Would he go that far in his tikas?

Jiva is pretty faithful to Sanatan. I'll try to check it out later on today.

A quick look did not find anything. But I have many commentaries to look at. What I'll try to do is make a file on bhramara-gita, just with the commentaries on those ten verses from the Bhagavata and the Ujjvala Nilamani, where they are all quoted as examples of the different kind of jalpa.

That is fine, but can you find your way out of all these unascribed Vaishnava Toshani Tikas - whose is Jiva's and whose is Sanatan's ?

This is another article I wrote in 1999, but never posted publicly, for reasons that will be evident to the readers. It's risky here, too, but what the heck.


I think the word "obscene" needs to be scrutinized. What was socially considered obscene in 1899 is not necessarily so in 1999. Is sexual activity per se obscene? [Webster: "of that which depraves, esp. of that which offends or wounds the imagination in sexual matters || offensive, revolting." Oxford: "tending to deprave or corrupt."]

If so, then even for procreation, sexuality is obscene. Not only that, but since Radha and Krishna's sex life entails the exact same act as the human one with which we are familiar (I assume you accept that the Divine Couple possess sex organs), that too must be "obscene" by definition.

If it is not the external act of sexual congress that is obscene, then is it the fact that the bodies are material (filled with blood, pus and stool)? Well, Vaishnava siddhanta holds that though apparently unchanged, bodies which have been initiated and consecrated in the service of the Lord are no longer considered material, so perhaps this too is inadequate as an argument. This is an essential doctrine of Vaishnavism: that of the transformation of matter by consciousness.

Is it then the desire that is obscene? The desire to exploit another person for one's own pleasure and profit? Certainly this describes some kinds of sexuality, but many people would argue against its inevitability. All cultures have idealized sex relations in their literature (even religious literature), which shows that they have a concept of sexuality that transcends this kind of selfish desire. Radha and Krishna fit into the pattern of such idealized relationships, like Tristan and Iseult, Layla and Majnun, and so many others.

I can hear a double response here: First, that idealized love relations in this world are purely illusory; and second, that to consider Radha and Krishna an idealized version of material love is offensive. Indeed, the two points are related: by thinking that we can enjoy like Radha and Krishna, we enter into the "original sin" of wanting to imitate Krishna, in short of being the enjoyer.

The first point is well taken: Sexuality is an important component of the material illusion and it is therefore important to face the issue squarely. Sex desire is inherent in the individual. It would appear from our Vaishnava philosophy that it is also inherent in the divine world, though we would say in a pure and divine form. Indeed, the divine sexual union of Radha and Krishna (and its concomitant fore and afterplay) is held to be the mystical summum bonum.

Conventional wisdom inherited by Western civilization from Freud deals with the situation of external renunciation and internal meditation on an idealized fantasy sex life rather summarily. Indeed, I have already quoted one version by Carstairs elsewhere (See G. Morris Carstairs, The Twice Born (Bloomington: The Indiana University Press, 1958) 158.)

Celibacy has traditionally been a problematic state in all religious societies where it has been promoted. How much more can we expect it to be so if the object of meditation is overtly sexual in nature? I had an experience of this in Vraja, where a babaji who was considered by many to be a siddha mahatma and lifelong brahmachari was approached by several Europeans, one of whom was a woman, for initiation into raganuga bhajana. Not long afterward, this babaji confided in his woman disciple that he wanted to try out some of the kisses that he had read about in Prabodhananda's commentary on the Gita Govinda.

The Gaudiya Math has made this a traditional criticism of the babaji sector, but my objection to their position is that they make celibacy an absolute value while fighting off the implications of Radha-Krishna symbolism.

Our goal is one of mystical participation in the divine acts of the Supreme Lord. What are we doing when we take prasada? We are consuming transformed matter so that it has attained sacramental power. We are entering into the idealized act of eating, where the maintenence of the body (which is the "external" or "mundane" function of the act) to participate in the pure act of enjoyment that is engaged in by the Supreme Lord himself. Our enjoyment of the act is dependent on the preceding act of Krishna's enjoyment. The understanding is that Krishna enjoys, not the material substance that is offered, but the devotional feeling with which it is offered. His remnants are then filled with his blessings.

The concept of manjari-bhava is extremely relevant in understanding how the sexual act can be transformed in Vaishnavism. The manjari is not a direct enjoyer of Radha and Krishna's sex act. Rather, she serves the union of Radha and Krishna. The various services of the manjaris are given in the Ujjvala-nilamani. She seeks the union of the Divine Couple and serves specifically Radharani, seeking to promote her enjoyment. This is the transformation of consciousness that would be at the basis of dovetailing the sexual act.

Of course, here we run into other problems: a materialist would ask what is wrong with being the enjoyer? But we will not consider such questions here, as that would require rehashing the basic understanding of janma-mrityu-jarA-vyAdhi-duHkha-doSAnudarzanam, which I don't think we need to do here.

An objection to the idea of dovetailing the sexual act can be presented as follows: The analogy of offering food is inadequate: food is something separate from the body and can therefore be offered up for Krishna's enjoyment and then consumed afterwards as a remnant. How can this be applied to the sex act, which cannot be separated from one's own acts?

Of course, this is an objection that is limited because there are so many devotional acts that are dedicated to Krishna in other ways. As a matter of fact, the acts of each of the senses are transformed in different ways. In fact, it is the consciousness that is transformed in each case. Offering food is only a part of a sequence of acts that ends in the eating of prasad. The eating is also expected to be accompanied by a transformation of consciousness, which can be resumed by relishing the connection with Krishna rather than by the consumption of the food as the "enjoyer." The act changes the "enjoyer." One who treats prasada in the spirit of bhoga does not fully attain the transformative effects.

Sexuality in Krishna consciousness also requires transformative ritual and a training of consciousnes. We are not talking about ego-inflation, or thinking "I am Radha, I am Krishna." The Sahajiyas have a concept called Aropa, a kind of temporary identification that might be considered a participation mystique, rather than a wholesale identification of oneself as God, or even as the "bhogi."

The Sahajiyas have a different understanding of what is obscene: the spilling of semen in the sex act. That is the sign of the corruption of desire. Thus they also warn against the misuse of their doctrines as an excuse for licentiousness. They consider their sadhana as much of a discipline as the orthodox Gaudiyas their strict avoidance of women. ("The paradoxical situation, then, is that the tantric appears to the orthodox Hindu and Buddhist as a libertine, whereas in reality he preserves a state of complete celibacy." Agehananda, The Ochre Robe, 297)

On the other hand, they criticize absolute celibacy as artificial renunciation (phalgu-vairagya).

Anyway, it is not my object to promote Sahajiyaism, though I do feel that the fear and loathing of this sect is misguided, while misogyny is one of the results of any philosophy that insists on strict separation of the sexes and absolute renunciation of all sexuality as prerequisites for spiritual realization. This is certainly not natural (sahaja) and therefore suspect.

My feeling is that sexuality, like all things in this world, has a spiritual function if properly used--like the sound vibration used in the service of Krishna through chanting his Name, like the food offered to Krishna becomes prasada, and just like ordinary work when performed in consciousness of Krishna, all have the effect of bringing the spirit closer to Him.

Sexuality is a powerful and potentially disruptive force, both for the individual and society. No one can deny this. Its very power makes it the ideal analogy for the union of the individual soul with the divine, an metaphor found in all theistic religious traditions. But if the "most difficult sense to overcome," the tongue, can be dovetailed in Krishna's service, why can sexual energy not also be so dovetailed?

I repeat that we live in a society where sexual mores are far freer than they were in Victorian England and, by extension, its empire. Religion dominated by a celibate male priesthood has rightly come under fire in Western culture. At the same time, nothing seems more decadent and a source of greater confusion than modern sexuality and popular attitudes toward it. But an unreflective rejection is an inadequate way of dealing with the problem.