A Question On Principles -

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Radha Krishna.

Hare Krishna. I have been lurking this forum for a few weeks now and have a few simple questions for the followers of the Babajis such as Ananta Das Babaji. I have read the introduction to your website but still have some basic questions.

Are you required to follow the four regulative principles:
1. No Meat Eating? Eggs? Onions and Garlic?
2. No Illicit Sex? Including no sex unless for procreation?
3. No Gambling?
4. No Intoxication?
If you don’t need to follow one or any of these why not?

Do you receive Brahman initiation? If you don’t why?

Do you have to chant 16 rounds or more of Maha Mantra everyday? If not how many rounds?

What are the books you are required to study? Srimad Bhagavad Gita? Srimad Bhagavatam? Srimad Nectar of Instruction?

Have the ISKCON Devotees like Rasaraja from 108 had to give up their Guru in order to participate here?

Sorry for all of the questions but I am very curious.

Your Servant,
Caru dasa adhikari

Dear Caru,

Welcome onboard, and thank you for participating. As for the regs, you may be aware that as a legislated entity they only appear in ISKCON and other ISKCON-influenced movements such as some modern-day Gaudiya Mathas. Elsewhere, there are no such strictly imposed principles or vows that one would have to take.

At any rate, people who are serious about spiritual life generally adopt such principles to progress towards their desired goal. However, the acceptance of varieties of abstinence does not arise out of duty or remorse, but rather out of a keen interest in attaining one's cherished spiritual aspirations.

As for brahmana-initiation, no, we do not receive brahmana-threads. There is no injunction in the writings of the Gosvamins stating that everyone should accept an upavita (brahmin thread) to progress in Bhagavat-bhakti. We do receive dIkSA-mantras though, since they are required for arcana. Arcana, however, is not the sole privilege of the priestly class, as you may read in the Bhagavata (search the older threads for arcana). Hence, since a brahmana-tread is not necessary, we do not receive it. Let those who are brahmanas be brahmanas. We shall primarily concern ourselves with being worthy bhagavat-sevakas.

As for how many rounds are to be chanted, that depends on the individual's situation. For those who receive harinama, Sri Ananta Das Pandit gives a minimum of four and tells them to work their way up to 64 or beyond at their own pace. Baba chants a minimum of two lakhs himself. Most of us chant 16 or above. The standards vary from one guru to another.

There are no strict rules on which books one should study. Each disciple may ask their guru which granthas would be most beneficial for them at their present situation. Of course Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam and Upadeshamrita are among the basics that one should study. Additionally, Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, the summary works of Visvanatha, Jiva's Sat-sandarbha, particularly Tattva-sandarbha and Bhakti-sandarbha, and a number of other works are helpful in grasping the basic concepts of siddhAnta in our tradition.

To participate in the forums, nobody must give up their gurus. That is not written in our board rules. Each individual may do as he sees best. In general, rejecting a guru is not something one should do lightly or whimsically. In all fairness, I must say, though, that a person who decides to pursue the traditional path of bhajan in the Gaudiya Vaishnava-tradition will generally come to accept a traditional guru who will initiate him in the appropriate methods of worship. As for whether this can be accomplished without rejecting the earlier guru, that is something that one must sort out with the prospective traditional guru and one's current guru.

You'll apologize me if I can't follow up on your reply until late Sunday or early Monday. I will be traveling for a couple of days, deprived of internet access. There are plenty of wise people around to respond to any questions in the meantime. Enjoy your stay.

Hoping this meets you happy and healthy,
Madhavananda

Madhavji, which branch of the Gaudiya Math do the above regs appear as a "legislated entity"?

I don't think any branch asks for vows at the time of initiation, but some groups (you know which) who like to have others understand that they are in the line of Swamiji, throw in catch-phrases such as the four regs or "back to godhead" now and then.

That word made the regs sound real boring, didn't it?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Please tell me that this is a joke...

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

There is no need to “give up” anything in order to participate in this forum. As you will read there are many devotees that participate within this forum that come from many different backgrounds.

Personally I have found myself at a point where my inspiration is weak and different interests have brought me to this board and have inspired me to read books outside of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s circle. I still have a very nice relationship with my ISKCON Guru and have not reached a point where I have decided to enter into any other relationship. I still have a deep respect and faith within my spiritual origins but I admit I am in the process of looking outside for assistance in deepening my faith and ability/desire to progress further in my spiritual life.

To be honest I didn’t expect this type of attention for my participation, i.e. the various e-mails and posts on different boards, which range from questioning my relationship with my Guru to my integrity but after some thought I understand the thought process which has lead to many of the questions/comments. I’ll just say that I deeply value and cherish my relationship with my Guru and regardless of how I evolve within my personal spiritual life I will always aspire to attain many of his qualities (i.e. honesty, integrity, compassion, love for his Guru and determination) as well as pray to continue to have a personal relationship with him.

Aspiring to be a serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Maybe Krsna has a special plan for you. You are a little bit of a celebrity in Iskcon, after all.
You are earning people's respect; naturally some eyes are on you...

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I was hoping to get more response to my actual question in regards to the expectations of the different Guru’s which are represented, via disciples, on your website. I thank Madhava for his words and clarification on what his Guru asks of him.

Is there anyone else that cares to explain?

I also thank Rasaraja 108 for his information. I didn’t mean to sound rude and I appreciate his honesty and answer very much.

So can more devotees please tell me how their Guru teached and expects his disciples to act in accordance to the principles and guidelines of my original post.

Thank you and all glories to the Guru Paramapara.

Your servant,
Caru dasa Adhikari

Returning to the concept of the four regs known in ISKCON, I'd like to reiterate that as such a formulation, it is present only in ISKCON and ISKCON-influenced movements, and therefore others may find it difficult to find a straight-forward answer to your question. Likewise, if I were to ask you whether your guru requires you to do some other things that are not explicitly spoken of in your movement, it would not be easy for you to give a definitive yes or no answer, due to the fact that the matter has probably never surfaced among your group to begin with.

There are many different rules and regulations in the Vaishnava-scriptures, and pretty much everywhere it is expected that one eventually adopt as much of them as possible as far as they are favorable for the growth of one's devotion.

I have a hunch that most of us have never really explicitly brought up the matter with their gurus. Things such as no meat-eating and no alcohol seem to be obvious even without being explicitly mentioned, and the nitty-gritty of it everyone may adopt according to their capacity. At any rate, if someone has received some very explicit instructions aside the general themes in the Gosvami-granthas, please do contribute in this thread.

Caruji
Well, I'm not diksit but I'm going to reply anyway according to my experience.
As regards the four regulative principles required to be strictly followed (more or less, at least) by Iskcon at the time of initiation:

1. no non-veg food (including eggs)

In my mother country (India) I have seen two things regarding this in relation to the Gaudiya Math specifically. (I'll deal here first with Gaudiya Math because I'm assuming you are more familiar with that than the broader Gaudiya Society, which I will also cover). Usually the congregation members of the Gaudiya Math who come forward for diksa are already vegetarian. No specific vow needs to be taken. In cases where some bengalis aspire for diksa but are eating fish, that fish eating is asked to be given up before diksa will be given. I have seen a case where a young bengali girl wanted to take diksa from a Gaudiya Math guru but he told her to first wait and see if her future husband would be a fish eater or not (her family was in the middle of trying to arrange her marriage). The guru said that if she was not required to cook fish for her husband, then only could she receive diksa.
Previously, it would seem ludicrous for such aspiring vaishnavas to take "vow" never to eat eggs because the products they buy at the local stores, (sweets and what have you) do not contain eggs and such people cannot imagine that things would contain eggs. It's not like in the west where a strict vegetarian has to read the labels of almost anything they buy. HOWEVER, nowadays little cakes and pastries are starting to be sold here and there in general stores and the Indians who consider themselves "sakaharis", pure vegetarians, are innocently buying them because they are not aware of the new egg phenomena and it would not even cross their minds that eggs might be used in such things. Even the shopkeepers who sell the stuff have no idea. That being said, as this becomes more widespread and the Indians become more educated and aware of such things, then labels listing the ingredients of products will start being demanded by the public and at that point it might even become neccessary for a guru to ask her already vegetarian disciples, "do you eat those cakes down at the corner store with eggs in them"? Until that point, eggs seem to be a non-issue. Although I can appreciate why Srila Prabhupad included that in his 4 regs because he saw that in the west many products were made with eggs and the ingredients were listed.

Now, onto other non Gaudiya Math vaishnavas.... I can only speak from my personal experience as a Bengali that fish is pretty much considered a "staple" food by alot more than 50% of Bengal. In bengal you will find Vaishnava gurus who themselves eat fish. Or you may find pure vegetarian gurus who nonetheless give mantra to fish eaters. What the percentage is I don't know.

2. Gambling

Thats not an issue at all amongst any of the Vaishnavas I have met, either Gaudiya Math or otherwise. It's not even talked about, what to speak of vowing against.

3. Intoxication

It seems to be "assumed" already that one asking for Vaishnava diksa does not indulge in this. Whether that's an accurate assumption or not I don't know. Recreational drinking and drugging has not reached the social status it has in the West by any means, but at the same time bhang/ganja is not exactly unheard of in India, right? I think its a cultural thing. All of the Indians I know who take diksa in the Gaudiya line have never touched an alcoholic drink in their lives. As Indian culture/society changes and becomes more modern this may change at which time such a vow might be implemented.

4. Illicit Sex

Indians seem to be very naive in this regard and most traditional ones automatically assume that unmarried people are not sexually active.
To a large degree Indian culture is still very secretive about sex, even between married couples, and the subject is talked about with embarrasement, if at all.
The personal lives of married couples are considered just that -- their personal lives.

Dandabat Sri Caru Dasji,

First, do you have any idea of the situation outside Iskcon, amongst Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad's fellow disciples of Sril Bhaktisiddhanta, such as BR Sridhar Maharaj or BV Narayan Maharaj? Even amongst those direct friends and colleagues of Srila ACBSPrabhupad there is extreme difference from what he apparently taught. Just why that is, nobody really knows, but it will be a good context for your enquiries about practices and beliefs amongst Bengali Gaudiyas in general. Start with the familiar, before studying the more diverse.

Just taking Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who has a good claim to representing Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (Let us not argue over this, friends. It is generally accepted.), he advised that it was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's rule that 4 rounds daily is sufficient, 16 is better, but 64 is best. He also denies that there are '4 regulative principles', or that they are the basis for receiving Harinam from the Guru. Rather Harinam given by the Guru enables one to rise to the purer standard gradually. Guru mercifully gives Harinam even to the impure so that they can progress. All of this can be read in the 20 years old book, 'Sri Guru and his Grace'. Devotees in Gaudiya Math also do not chant japa aloud. We can only assume that many of Iskcon's notions have arisen through contact with Westerners and non-Gaudiya practices, otherwise how to explain the big discrepancies with most other Gaudiyas? For a couple of years we have discussed these issues on this website, and trying to reconcile the various views is extremely difficult.

My own Gurudev (it is not customary amongst Gaudiyas to speak one's Guru's name, whatever you may have been told) is a Bhajanandi who chants the Holy Name constantly day and night, sometimes silently on japamala, mostly aloud accompanying himself with a brass gong while he does Braja parikrama.

When he gave me diksha, he simply asked me to sin no more, 'Now, no more pap'. But when he gave my Indian wife diksha he made no such request of her. Such variations are typical amongst Gaudiyas, including those Srila ACSBPrabhupad knew. In fact Gurudev may only ask westerners to stop pap. For Indians this is assumed. Sri BV Narayan Maharaj has said the same thing. He apparently finds many Iskcon notions very quaint. (I do not!*)

As to number of rounds, Gurudev told me to 'chant constantly', when I asked him for a number of rounds. He also requested me to chant Gaur Mantra (a personal diksha mantra) 108 times 3 times a day for one year. He said then I should return and he will give more mantra. There is only one diksha, but Gurudev may give all mantras and sadhanas at one sitting, or in many installments over several months or years, according to how he sees the disciple's advancement. Gaudiya Math has 2 ceremonies: Harinam and Diksha. They give Brahma Gayatri as one of the personal diksha mantras. No other Gaudiyas seem to give Brahma Gayatri as part of diksha.

I have come to regard 4 daily rounds as a standard minimum amongst Gaudiyas which I try to maintain. Many days I chant 16 rounds. On ekadasi I try to chant 64 rounds.

*May I just say that I have all respect for Srila ACBSPrabhupad's disciples and followers, and their dedication to their sadhana. But amongst Gaudiyas in general there is a lot of variation, often equally dedicated but just different.

Jai Radhe!
Joy Nitai!

Brajmohan Das.

***
For those who do not know, Sri Caru Das Adhikari is a long time dedicated disciple of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, and gave him great service in the early days by building and managing temples. He now has constructed an apparently wonderful temple in Salt Lake City which we all read about on VNN.

Betelnut,

this can be put down as mostly malicious rumour-mongering perhaps, but I have heard that it was previously far more common to mix animal lard with cooking oil in India than any vegetarians realised, and that the extent of the problem only became known when modern food standards and testing methods were introduced.

If so, then many who thought they were vegetarian were not, at least in the interval between the advent of industrial oil processing and modern testing (ie from about 1800 to about 1900).

There were times in the past century when the fraud was discovered. I seem to recall reading of large numbers of Brahmins fasting to death on the banks of the Hooghly in Kalkutta in protest, while those evil British came to their rescue, creating and policing food purity standards so as to maintain the peace.

Nice to meet you, Sri Caru-ji. I did not know that you were the same Caru das who built that nice temple, but it is very nice to meet you anyway.

Well anyway, it is always nice to see a new face in these forums!

OK this is a different Caru Das, it seems. Oh well, it's a rare name.

Madhavji,
Personal slants and socio-cultural conditionings/comments aside, do you see that ACBVS differs in anyway from the tradtional rupanuga line in anyway? If so, in what ways?

Yeshua Christ!

Pretty sure it's an old face--new body, old face.

Original 'Nectar of Devotion', 1970, printed in Japan, p129:

"In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranai (sic). The siddha-pranai process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorised and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behaviour is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranai process is followed by the prakRta sahajiyA, a pseudo-sect of so-called Vaisnavas..."

***
Not sure if this answers your question, but I've been dying to share it!

How does the above answer my question?

I could not find any reference to 'four rounds' in the said book. Would you mind awfully to present the exact reference of you have it?

Actually, Betelnutji, why did you ask the question, anyway?

Madhava didn't say or imply that ACBSP 'differs'.

Every Guru has a personal slant. ACBSP says in the same book I quoted above, p53:

"For example, if one is following the instruction of his spiritual master and that instruction is different from the instructions of another spiritual master, this is called detailed information. But the basic principle of accepting a spiritual master is good everywhere, although the details may be different..."

Sorry, different book. I meant to say 'Search for Sri Krishna'. That's the original 20 year old book of the series. Not 'Sri Guru...'. I'm a confused old man.

p113:

Student: How many rounds did your guru maharaja ask his initiated discples to chant each day? Did he prescribe any set number?

Sridhar Maharaja: His general recommendation was to chant twenty-five thousand names, sixteen rounds, daily, or at least four rounds minimum. When someone had no work, he could chant one hundred thousand names, or sixty-four rounds.

Student: Would Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura give harinama initiation to someone who could only chant four rounds daily?

Sridhar Maharaja: There was no such consideration. Formally, one had to do some counting, but there was no rigid limitation. What he wanted from us was intense engagement in the service of the Lord...

[What originally came to me when I read this was the number of times I saw devotees 'making up their rounds the next day' when they had not had time to chant 16. In fact, at the top of the same page BSST is quoted as having said 'The beads must not be kept fasting', meaning at least some rounds must be chanted every day: at least four (which is very manageable)].

Just about as much or as little as any other Gaudiya Math walla. I think that's been discussed before on many, many occasions.

[bah. deleting this post. what's the point? A nice picture of Woodie Guthrie once resided here.]

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I won’t bother defending myself against such a rant. The only individuals which I care to hear from in regards to my spiritual life are those that I have a relationship with and who have an actual insight into my personal situation and my relationships with the devotees.

Maybe my participation here is a bit risky to myself and my personal relationships. Not for the ignorant views expressed by Caru dasa but due to the fact that I don’t want my life and struggles to be anyone’s fodder what to speak of a conversation enjoyed and inflated by ISKCON devotees.

So Caru thanks for the concern, well wishes and total lack of respect for my dignity and privacy.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

PS. Consider dropping the Rasaraja “108” thing since that is, and never has been my name and especially considering that my efforts in that band ended well over 8 years ago.

So now it's 'The Judas Factor' right?

Had a listen to some samples on the net, sorry I'm a bit too old for it, though I can dig the spiritual ecstatic type of jazz, like John Coltrane (yes, I know SDG likes him) and his friends like Pharoah Sanders. From my listening, the approach of these old 'free jazz' types is close to what your band does. Interesting that those old jazz men saw a link between what they did and chanting too. JC's wife, Alice Coltrane, actually made the jump from playing free jazz improvization to releasing albums of kirtan and bhajan (see http://www.silent-watcher.net/alicecoltrane/discography/ ). They say she even got harinam from Srila ACBSP, but I could never confirm it. Like George Harrison she went to alot of Gurus.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

TJF ended 5 years ago. Ballads in Blue China was the most therapeutic and meaningful period of my artistic career. After that I called it quits because it couldn't get any more "real" to me than what I got from that record. The other records were half recorded material we never finished. I don't know what material you heard.

On the topic of Coltrane I did use a sample of Miles Davis, who I have always found to be very "soulful", in the only other song we completed which was used for a Gay Rights compilation (I bet I just fueled some great posts with that tidbit).

Anyhow... I prefer Rasaraja dasa

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I have removed most of the unpleasantries present in this thread, along with some comments, even though less unpleasant, which directly deal with them. They are available upon request. This thread still has many good points worth exploring, and people shouldn't have to wade through all those politics to grasp the good of this thread.