Mahaprabhu's Opinion Of Nagari-bhava - via Vrndavan das Thakura

As a continuation of the Gaura-Visnupriya upasana topic, as well as the other topics on this forum concerning Gaura-nagari-bhava, I have a related question about Thakura Vrndavana das.

During a chance reading of selected portions of Caitanya-bhagavata last night, I came across this sloka that was on the back cover:



Since it is also well known that Vrndavana das Thakura elsewhere in CB strongly condemned gaura-nagari-bhava, can we take it that this is also Mahaprabhu's own opinion despite the fact that other associates of Mahaprabhu taught and practised such a bhava?

And why would that be so? It sounds more like a general praise for the uniqueness of the work, not like these are the actual words of Gauranga and his definite opinions on definite issues.

I agree with nabadip.

By the way, Nadia-nagaris believe that Vrndavana dasa is not against Gauranga's nagara feature because he said - yadyapi sakala stava sambhava tahane - '' All such praises are possible with Him.''

With respect,

Come on man, there's heaps of quotes by VDT against nagari-bhava.

Haridasa Dasa Baba often supported VDT's version by saying , '' If a newly married girl happens to fall in love with a handsome boy of her village , whom will she tell ? ''

with respect,

That's very sweet and something I can totally relate to.

Where is the sadhana for Guara nagara bhava discussed? I thought that the corresponding svarupa for a manjari in Krsna lila was a bhramin boy in Gaura lila in dasya.

For those of manjari-bhava, and who also engage in Gaura-upasana, it is.

I am not familiar with the paddhatis of the Nagari-tradition, but I am certain there are some. And I am also quite certain that there are none in English, unless Gadadhar Pranaji has already put something together. He's got some other texts on the tradition, you should find them at Loi Bazaar whenever you visit Vraja.

Pulling out a statement from anywhere within VDT's works is not necessarily the done thing. For example, I have found the following:



However VDT specifically mentions the following:


So I think this is enough reason from VDT to conclude the bona-fideness (or not) of Gaura-nagari bhava. I don't know who Haridasa Baba is but I wouldn't necessarily take his opinion as authoritative, at least not as authoritative as VDT's.

This is the very reason why I earlier asked how far can we take VDT's words in relation to Gaura-nagari bhava, especially since vRndAvana-dAsa-mukhe vaktA zrI-caitanya.

If you look in Caitanya Bhagavata where Vrndavana dasa describe Gauranga's nagara qualities ,you will see the reason why Nadia-nagaris are not against VDT.

For example:

Gauranga's body is very beautiful to behold.He is dressed in divine attire and his curling hair , tied with enchanting flower malas makes him look just like Cupid wielding five flower arrows. While walking along in bliss , Sacinandana totters , so prema makes him dizzy. His two brows are like bows for pelting Kamadeva's flower arrows. Hence, with a smile decorating his face like a row of pearls, Gauranga is an ocean of compassion for all woman.(Cbh Madhya 23.272-4)

However, Vrndavana dasa focus mainly on Gauranga's Yuga Avatara feature. Not on his Rasaraja-Mahabhava svayam rupa.

As Gadadhar-prana Prabhu explain in his ''Rasaraja Gauranga'' :

Evidence for this comes at the end of Vrndavana dasa Thakura's verses when he refers to Gauranga as ''Vaikuntha nayaka'' or Narayana. Everything stated here thus rings true , for Narayana never mixes with the gopis nor with the Nadia-nagaris- this is only possible for Rasika sekhara svayam bhagavan - and it is the Yuga avatara Who descends from Narayana who here is said to be acting within Mahaprabhu.

with respect,

I believe you. Here is some info:

Many mahatmas have made substantial contributions to the Vaisnava world in the modern period, but one in particular stands out in my mind- a humble bhakta who never made a disciple and who hid from recognition .Even so , he is a favourite amongst scholars and bhaktas , a highly-regarded author and editor. Thus Sri Haridasa dasa Babaji of Navadvipa's Haribol Kutir does not really need an introduction. Throughout his voluminous research one finds perhaps the most in-depth tudy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism anywhere. The 65 Gosvami and Mahakana scriptures he translated and published have served as an indispensable aid for many subsequent students of this movement.

Those who read Haridasa dasa's books easily develop trust for his credibility. His vast scholarship, unbiased judgment and broad outlook reveal a deep admiration for every Gaudiya Mahajana and true follower of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. Thus his vast array of Vaisnava literature is truly worthy of admiration.

From Sraddhanjali (A reverential offering) by Gadadhara Prana Prabhu ji to Sri Haridasa Dasa Babaji.

For ekanta Gora bhaktas every siddhanta and every sadhana concerning Radha-Krsna also applies to Gauranga.And yes - Gora's name is the nagaris' japa mantra.

With respect,

So in the nitya lila of Nadiya Mahaprabhu is married to Visnupriya/Laksmipriya and they are worshiped by some in aisvarya and at the same time Guara and Gadadhara are there and they are worshiped by others without reverence? But where does the nagari svarupa come in? Gadadhara does not have one, so those worshiping Gaura Gadadhara would not either I presume. A brahmin boy serving Garua Gadadhara in Nadiya is not a nagari.

I would like to see the Bengali for the passages you cite from VDT, jivaji.

Well Adbhut, according to some, Gadhadhar Pandit as well as most, if not all, male parikars of Mahaprabhu DO INDEED have a THIRD swarup as young, newly married, nadiya nagaris whom they turn into at will in the lila to engage in amourous pastimes with that Cupid of Cupids --- Sri Goranga.

If Gadadhara sometimes turns into a nagari, I would imagine that Garua turns into Krsna and so with all of the other associates.

sva-mAdhurya rAdhA-prema-rasa AsvAdite
rAdhA-bhAvA aNgI kariyAche bhAla-mate
gopI-bhAva yAte prabhu dhariyAche ekanta
vrajendra-nandane mAne ApanAra kAnta
gopikA-bhAvera ei sudRDha niZcaya
vrajendra-nandana vinA anyatra nA haya

Sri Caitanya CaritAmRta (Adi, 17/276-278)

According to Krsnadasa Kaviraja, gopi bhava or nagari bhava as it may be called is only possible when Vrajendranandana is the visaya alambana. He tastes parakiya gopi bhava with Gadadhara. Why does Gadadhara need a nagari svarupa to taste this?

Yes, Gaura is Vrajendranandana, but one must take his mood into consideration. This is the real point of VDT. The idea that VDT is only speaking about Gaura Narayana in his admonition of nagari bhava is a stretch. He refers to Garua as Vaikunthanatha throughout his book.

madana sundara gaura kalevara
divya-vAsa paridhAna
cAcara cikura mAlA manohara
jena dekhi pAncabAne
candana carcita sri anga sobhita
gale dole vana-mAlA
dhuliye paraye preme thir nahe
Anande sacira bAlA
kAma-sarAsana bhrUyuga pattana
bhAle malayaja bindu
mukutA dasana sriyuta vadana
prakrti karunA sindhu

According to Nadia-nagaris, VDT supports Gora's Rasaraja feature by stating:

kAma-lilA karite jakhan icchA hay
lakhArbuda vanitA se karen vijay

''When desiring to perform his kAma lila, Caitanya Mahaprabhu can defeat countless millions of pretty damsels.'' (Cbh Adi 12.137)

with respect,

[I]The incarnation of love who previously was the queen of Vrndavana,Radha, is now the belowed of gaura named Srila Gadadhara Pandita. Svarupa damodara himself indicated that he was Vraja's goddess of fortune, the Laksmi who was previously the beloved of Syamasundara in Vrndavana. She today has become the goddess of fortune of love for Gaura and i known as Srila Gadadhara Pandita. Lalita,who is also known as Anuradha, is Radha's closest friend and confidante.She has also entered into Gadadhara, as was shown in the Caitanya-candrodaya.''(GGD 147-150)

with respect,

No Adbhut, the whole point of Nadiya Nagari bhav is that the nagaris desire to serve Mahaprabhu in his form AS Mahaprabu (not Krishna), in an amourous way.
They are attracted to his GOLDEN BEAUTY, amongst other things.

Yes, but the whole point of those who oppose this is that Krsna as Gaura does not accept this service in that form. He is rasaraj becasue he tastes Radha bhava himself in this form, not becasue he, like Krsna, tastes it as the obejct of love. This is central to the whole meaning of Garuahari. Separate from tasting the love of Radha, Gaura is Garua Narayana wedded to Visnupriya. If the parakiya of nagari bhava is to consort with him on the side, this consorting would be done with Gaura Narayana and thus inappropriate even by the liberal interpretation of VDT's words. It is almost as if the nagari bhava sector are positing a third realm: Vraja, Nadiya, and ?

Devotees do express sentiments like that of a nagari towards Gaura, but those opposed to nagari bhava say that he fulfills their desires internally by appaearing to them as Krsna. Where does Gaura ever say that he in his golden form desires to taste gopi bava as the OBJECT of this love?

This is an interesting topic.

Are you sure you got this quote right. It is not 1.12.137 in my edition.

And where can we find the scriptural evidence for a "third" svarupa-deha?

Gaurasundar, this confidential subject matter is revealed with the highest levels of secrecy to only a very few qualified and rare recipients.

Very funny,..NOT!

I have some books about it but first you have to be "initiated" to read them or at least get written permission.

Gaurasundar ji,
please don't get me wrong but betal_nut have right.

The rasika bhaktas all know that Krsna's madhura Vraja lila is not svakiya, but still Sri Jiva Gosvamin introduced the doctrine that Krsna is eternally married with the gopis in order to delude the atheist blasphermers who vilify Krsna's activities out of ignorance of the Lord's supreme position.Yet Gauranga's parakiya affairs are more confidential than Krsna's, for externally he is acting as a world techer.Thus Gadadhara Prana Prabhuji said that VDT has cleverly writen these lines to protect Mahaprabhu from the uninformed who would mock Him as a pseudo-sannyasi.And for the devotees in general, many might misrepresent Him and take to imitating Him, by mixing with woman after assuming the renounced order.Only chaos would arise from this and Mahaprabhu would be blamed for propagating sucha pseudo-religious sect.

Yet,most important reason which prompts VD's warning is that the Lord personally wishes to keep his personal love affairs a secret.Thus all of the nagari bhava padas written by the rasika Gaudiya mahajanas are simply meant for other rasika bhaktas.Indeed Caitanya always cringed whenever he heard someone discussing his own intimate affairs or glories.

Also Gadadhara Prana Prabhu ji said that devotees can appreciate the importance of VDT's statements from a deeper,internal perspective,however, to properly maintain one's confidential Gaura bhajana, care and selection with whom one discusses Gaura's nagara activities is esential for such pastimes are nourished by secrecy.

In other words, outside of her inner circle of close friends, a chaste woman will never leak out the news of her paramour only to discgrace her beloved and bring ruin upon herself.

Regarding third svarupa deha...

Nadia-nagaris (Gaura Gunananda Thakura from Narahari vamsa) said that, in Vraja (as we know ) everyone remains in one form; yet in Navadvipa, most Gaura-parikara have two or even three identities. For example, when sadhakas of our world hanker very diligently to attain siddhi, they surely receive a suitable gopi siddha deha to serve in Radha-Krsna's pastimes upon attaining prema.Yet in Gaura lila, even premika Gaura-parikaras (like Narahari Sarakara) , although male , hanker to take up female forms in order to ideally serve Gauranga in madhura rasa.Hence, Gauranga fulfills their desires.Yet, their Vraja-svarupas are never forgotten and, at select times, can even manifest in Navadvipa lila. These are some of the extra bonus features exclusive to Gauranga's pastimes.

So we can conclude that devotee serves in basically three ways :1) in his parsada svarupa (as Narahari for example) , 2) in his previous Vraja-svarupa( Narahari as Madhumati Sakhi , and 3 ) in his nagari-svarupa.

with respect,

FOUR siddha swarups !? I cant even realise the ONE that my Guru has given me!
Perhaps you need 96 hours in a day then.....

ADVAITA, just because you cannot even realize that one, please don't put others in same category as you.
Otherwise you fall victim to the same mentality at Saraswat that says, "we are not qualified for raganuga bhakti and therefore no one else is either".

JIVA, Mahaprabhu is chenna avatar for all the reasons you listed above.
Seems that even here in this forum he should remain so being that this aspect of Sri Gora is not being understood.

People, chenna in this case does not mean "chickpea".

This is not a matter of being qualified here. It is a matter of doctrinal difference. Engaging in Gaura Nagara upasana in seven and half svarupas does not make it any greater than engaging in manjari-bhava-upasana in one svarupa, or engaging in both manjari-bhava-upasana and Gaura-upasana as brahmin-kishor in two svarupas.

I do not have a problem with Gaura-nagari or whatever as such, but I do take objection when people start promoting the upasana of a small group which does not exactly jibe with the mainstream sampradaya as the "confidential, supreme" form of worship, something which we mere mortals are not able to comprehend at all.

The word for covered / hidden is channa, not chenna. Chickpea is caNa.

I use phoenetics.
This new type of sanskrit which is found over the net nowadays is ridiculous. Can't figure out what the hell it is trying to say.
Why not use phoenetics or at least the old way of sanskrit representation in english that everybody is used to?
Seven and half svarups?

This new type of Sanskrit is know as the Harvard-Kyoto convention, and it is a widely established standard which is not new at all. It is also not ridiculous, although you may not know how to read it. In addition to H-K, the Itrans convention is also widely used.

Why such conventions instead of phonetic spelling, each in his/her own style? Because it is much more accurate.

With your phonetic spelling with a-z characters, how do you make a difference between the retroflex and dental consonants? Even unasiprated (such as ca in caNa) and aspirated (such as cha in channa) consonants are easily mixed up, as we have just noted.

Diacritic characters don't work well on the internet, mainly because of various font encoding related problems. They are also more troublesome to input. Therefore various schemes taking advantage of small and capital letters ranging between a-z have been adopted to accurately represent Sanskrit words.

The Harvard-Kyoto convention in brief:

a A i I u U R L e ai o au
ka kha ga gha Ga
ca cha ja jha Ja
Ta Tha Da Dha Na
ta tha da dha na
pa pha ba bha ma
ya ra la va
za Sa sa ha
M H

how come then i see shastra spelt with a Z?

zAstra. Palatal s is "z". Retroflex s is "S".

What is the "mainstream" sampradaya?

I think what is being said is understood, but the veracity of it is in question. I am open to the possibility, but the evidence in support of it presented here thus far is not very convincing.

Those who engage in Yugal-upasana in manjari-bhava. Most Nityananda-vamsa, which is by far the biggest of the branches of the tradition, is such, as well as Narottama-parivar and the rest. Gauranagari-upasakas are a small minority.

I thought that the whole reason that Gaura was golden was becasue he adopted the bhava of Radha. So if you are attracted to him in the deepest sense you would be attracted to whaht makes him tick. That is the bhava of Radha that he is after. He is Krsna and can do anything but as I quoted from Cc earlier he chooses to accept worship in gopi bhava as Vrajendranandana only. So it is a bit hard to fathom that Krsnadasa Kaviraja and Vrindavana dasa Thalura were both hiding the secret truth by speaking against it and now its time for the world to know about it through Gadadhara Prana or whoever.

Its not the creation or property of GP das.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of Bengali padas refering to this bhav in detail that are hundreds of years old.

There are thousands of padas about it, but how does that square with the objections to it from KD and VD? These two authorities either object to it or object to writing thousands of padas about it. Some Mahajanas have written about it, but perhaps there is another explanation for this. What is is I do not know.

sri caitanya mano'bhishtam sthapitam yena bhutale so'yam rupa....

Q: What does Mahaprabhu want?
A: He wants to establish His wish on the earth.
Q: Who did that for Him?
A: Rupa Gosvami.
Q: Did Rupa do that unendorsed and whimsically?
A: Nope, he did it on the order of Mahaprabhu and with the empowerment and blessing of Nitai Gaur Sitanath.
Q: Did Rupa Gosvami write even half a syllable about Gaura Nagari Bhava?
A: Nope.
Q: Source of this establishment of authority?
A: Narottama Das Thakur.
Q: Has anybody else been so explicitly endorsed like Rupa?
A: Yes, Sanatan Gosvami, who also did not write a single syllable about Gaur Nagar Bhava......
Q: Is it puffed up, or even offensive to consider oneself to present a 'secret higher than that of Rupa's'?
A: Yep.

Sadhu, sadhu!

Well, I'm with Madhava and Advaita on this one. Gaura-nagaris can do whatever they like but I will listen to the opinion of Srila Vrndavana das Thakura:

'strI' hena nAma prabhu ei avatAre
zravaNo nA karilA - vidita saMsAre
ataeva yata mahA-mahima sakale
'gaurAGga-nAgara' hena stava nAhi bale
yadyapi sakala stava sambhave tAhAne
tathApiha svabhAva se gAya budha-jane
"In this avatara Prabhu did not hear the word 'woman,' this is known throughout the creation. Therefore great devotees do not offer prayers addressing Him as 'Gauranga Nagara.' Although all kinds of prayers may be offered to Him, intelligent persons glorify only those internal moods that a particular incarnation manifests." - Caitanya-bhagavata 1.15.29-31

It should. All this talk is making me hungry!

Yes, they glorify them, and not that which they secretely do.
Why can't you guys just accept the manifold approaches, including others, which you claim so ardently for yourself and your esoteric path? Rupa-Sanatan were sitting in Vrindavan. They are certainly the highest authority for Vraja-lila - accepted. Let there be others too. Why can't they speak for themselves, glorifying Rupa-Sanatana at the same time?
In pushing a theory for mainstream acceptance there is always a phase of claiming absolute authoritarian dogmatic exclusivity. Hey, we are living in 2004. Let Advaitadasji keep the keys for the medieval unrelenting doctrinarianism. A few of you may be like that. But you others, breathe some air once in a while, let others live too.
Jai Nitai. It was Nitai who started the worship of Gauranga as the highest. Nitai is always above Rupa-Sanatana. Way above. Jai Nitai.

Like I said Nabadipji, they can do whatever they like. I've learnt a little about their tradition through the various threads on this board and I plan to read some books on the subject when I can get them; however I must keep in mind the relative positions of the various theories out there. It certainly appears that yugal-upasana is the main thing. What can I do? I love Gauranga a lot myself, but Gaura-nagari is not the way to go? Rather, I can love Gauranga by following in His footsteps and aspiring for Yugal-seva?


Yes, Jai Nitai. But Nitai didn't say that Gauranga should be worshipped in a nagara mood? Rather, "The svabhava of Nityananda Svarupa is that He cannot give up dasya-bhava for even a moment...In this way the mind of Nityananda Svarupa is always pleased in the service of Sri Caitanyacandra." - Caitanya-bhagavata 2.5.108..110.

I think the issue at hand here is that those who oppose gaura nagara bhava have to offer a pausible explanation of what the padas from universally accepted siddha mahatmas that seem to indicate nagara bhava are really all about. The gaura nagara camp is giving an an explanation of them and also giving an explanation of why other siddhas wrote in opposition to it. So they have at least attempted to harmonize apparent contraditions.

2004? medieval? Since when is there a time frame on the Absolute? anarpita carim cirat karunaya avatirna kalau. It is for the whole of Kali yuga, not just for the middle ages, I hope? Are we deprived of the karunamay anarpita cari because it is now 2004? Ever heard of timeless truths? Rupa Gosvami is now obsolete, in your opinion? Where did you learn that one?



Where did you read that one? sri caitanya manobhistam sthapitam yena bhutale so yam rupa
It was Caitanya's own desire, not Rupa's desire, that he came to establish. Rupa wrote on Braja Lila because it was Mahaprabhu's desire, can you catch that? If you love Mahaprabhu, you might also like to carry out his desire? Rupa saw Mahaprabhu in Bengal and in Puri, too. Rupa was not just influenced because he was writing his books in Vraja, like a mesmerised tourist. He was wholly under Mahaprabhu's command as he wrote. Besides, he wrote the Natakams in Puri and on the way to Puri, not in Vraja. Mahaprabhu dispatched him to Vraja Himself. What was Mahaprabhu thinking of in Navadvip and in Puri? Of Vraja. Is there any record in the writings of Rupa, Krishnadas Kaviraja, Srinivasacarya, Narottam or Visvanath that Narahari Sarakara was Mahaprabhu's anointed one to teach bhakti?



Nobody here ordered them to Treblinka or Auschwitz. It is simply not Rupanuga, no matter how you twist or turn it.

Advaita,

Your reply should have been directed to Nabadipa since he wrote this. I am on your side (kind of) on this one. Check the record above.

So how do you see Narahari, Locana dasa, etc. They were not specifically empowered to do what Rupa did, but what are they doing/saying. Shall we write them off as some have done with Bhaktivinoda, etc.? What is your frank opinion.

I am terribly sorry Adbhuta, really. My heartfelt apologies. I will edit my post. No they should not be 'written off', depending on what you mean with that. I find it disturbing that people post here and there with the idea that Bhaktivinod is equal to Jiva Gosvami (in 'differing' from other Gosvamis) or even Rupa and Sanatan (some insinuating on another forum that they were eating meat with the Muslims, of which there is not a shred of evidence, and even if they did, that still does not make BVT comparible or equal to them). Narahari, Locan and the like just expressed their personal attraction to Mahaprabhu. It was not to be preached globally - that mandate and empowerment was given to Rupa and Sanatan.

So their personal attraction to Mahaprabhu involves consorting with him in a nagari svarupa? If so (I have my doubts), it does not parallel manjari bhava in that they are competing with Gadadhara. Sounds more like a prallell with sambhogeccha-mayi.

Personally I am not a follower of Gaur nagari bhava, I just see them existing, and why should they not be, as they are and who they are? I see the reality of traditional Gaudiya vaishnavas to be of a very varied nature, and I'd like to recognize and acknowledge that. I have no intention for diminishing your position in that. Except that you are saying: We are the one and only.

Do the Gaur-nagaris care to be Rupanuga, Advaitadasji?

As to the point that it should not be preached globally, I agree, but is that not applying also to Rupanuga, as Krsnadas mentions in CC that he has to write about these confidential things because otherwise noone would know? That is certainly not an invitation for preaching...
Jai Nitai. I agree and bow to Nitai's being in dasya-bhava...

yawn - 3rd time today - sri caitanya manobhistam sthapitam yena bhutale (perhaps Madhava should pin this one on top of the topics)
Bhu-tale does not mean only in one Bengali village - it means all over the world. And yes, Krishnadas Kaviraja does mean with 'that he has to write these things otherwise no one would know', that everyone should know. Hence the onus on raga marga in all the acaryas books. You cannot possibly think that Mahaprabhu empowered Rupa and Sanatan just so that 2 bengali babajis would be able to practise it, in the middle ages? pravartito'ham, Rupa says - I am engaged in spreading this. raga marga bhakti loke korite pracaran (CC Adi 4.15) Mahaprabhu preached this in the world - loke, not just to 2 or 3 lucky fellows in the middle ages....You cannot put the private feelings of Narahari on a par with the big mission of Rupa and Sanatan.

Indeed. Not only that, Mahaprabhu empowered Rupa and Sanatan and they wrote, with His inspiration, about Radha-Krishna from cover to cover.
Mahaprabhu came to bring Krishna Bhakti, not Gaur bhakti. Leave the feelings of Narahari and Locan to Narahari and Locan.

You might like to take a look at some of the earlier threads on this forum. They might help:

Gaura-Visnupriya upasana

Nadia-nagaris Controversy

Gauranga nama is most powerful [individual post]

Gaura-Nagara Doctrine

I don't think people outside Gaudiya Math are really against Gaura-nagari upasana as such. However, we do take objection to proposals, such as those offered by Gadadhar Prana, which suggest that Gaura-nagari upasan is something higher and more confidential, and is actually the greatest and deepest of moods.

Where is that documented, Nitai starting the worship of Gaura as the highest? By highest, I take it that you mean above and beyond the worship of Sri Yugala.

As for "Nitai is always above Rupa-Sanatana," for the yugala-upAsakas who seek bhavollAsa-rati, the lotus feet of Rupa Manjari are the sum and substance of all aspirations and the veritable desire tree in which the fruits of their spiritual aspirations ripen. Nitai is Baladeva, possessing a mood of fraternity mixed with parental affection, and as Ananga-manjari possessing a mood of a nAyika (as Ananga-manjaris is one of the aSTa-vara-sakhIs). Hence, in the context of mañjarI-bhAva, Rupa-Sanatana are in fact above Nitai.

''Gauranga is my dharma and my karma,Gauranga is my caste
Gauranga is my family,name and pride,for Gauranga will be mine at last
Gauranga is my puppet-like heart,and Gauranga is my Svami(husband)
Gauranga is my all in all for His humble dasi I'll be
Harinama sound has entered my home,it makes me mad inside
yet when my bandhu calls with that sound I quickly flee outside
my guardians protests I will not hear,I'll give up my family and name
Jnana dasa says to purchase Gaura's lotus-feet who else stands a claim?''
Jnana dasa [1]


Oh Sakhi! Whoever that claimant may be let us sabotage her plans so that we alone shall be the only drinkers of that nectar! Alas! Let the village elders outcaste us for our wanton ways.... Oh Sakhi! To become drunk on the wine of His name I'm willing to undergo a million AA meetings!

What I meant with medieval in contrast to 2004 was the way of "ex-cathedra" speaking that you do. You define dogmas (medieval church), you do not discuss (2004 forum). Or you do discuss in an "ex-cathedra" way including the catholic "anathema": anyone not accepting what you do is out. This is the clever set up of the Roman Catholic Church. They do not have to damn anyone, people not accepting their dogmas are damning themselves. Sorry if that is offensive to you, I do not mean to be that way, I would just like to name the meta-facts of the way this "discussion" happens here. If that is the only way it can be, I accept that. Then I am out at the lotusfeet of Sri gurudev and Sri Nitai. And I like it that way.

The way I meant Nitai to be above Rupa-Sanatan always, is that he is Prabhu with Sri Gauranga and Sri Advaita. I do take Rupa-Sanatana's life-and-soul (their work) as an unfolding of the inner essence of Sri Gauranga. Without the Vraja-flowers shown in full bloom, we could not understand the super-exellence of the Gardener, Nadia-Bihari Sri Gauranga. Jai Nitai-Gaur-Sitanath.

Even though I do not subscribe to it myself, I do think that it can be seen as more confidential because it is potentially even more scandalous, and the greatest and deepest mood because it includes Sri Gauranga's braja-lila-bhavas.

Perhaps you should give up your Christian trauma and conditioning. This is Gaudiya Vaishnavism we discuss here. Bhakti means surrender, not freewheeling. I am not dictating anyone to surrender to Mahaprabhu and Rupa-Sanatan, if so then please quote me on that. This forum is called Gaudiya Discussions, so I presume the participants are Gaudiya Vaishnavas, whose supreme authority is Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu has passed the baton to Rupa and Sanatan, what is wrong with reminding the participants of their authority?



Why what I am doing? How many more times I have to quote from the main acaryas who is to be followed? I did not write the Gosvamis books, the Gosvamis did it. I can give you a whole page full of evidence, quotes that Rupa and Sanatan were empowered by Mahaprabhu. This is Mahaprabhu's wish, mano'bhishtam, and it seems to have a very hard time to trickle down to you. If I were a dictator I would not be replying you all the time so patiently.



Why do you put words in my mouth and jump to conclusions? Quote me on condemning anyone.

I meant "more confidential" in the sense of "having the utmost relish". Not "more confidential" as in "more potentially scandalous".

In this vein, here is a hilarious bit of news by Ekanath from the old COM-forums, in October 2001. A forerunner for NEHKE, I believe.


Now, would that be "more confidential" than manjari-bhava, or even Gaura-nagari-bhava?

Madhavaji,

You describe Ekanath's piece as "hilarious." But some time ago I was told by an ex-ISKCON devotee that he was approached by a (now-fallen/deposed) sannyasi guru, who propositioned him homosexually by using a line of "reasoning" not entirely unlike this. So it is not just a joke -- it is a dangerous line of "reasoning" that can cause real harm to people, and serious deviation from the authentic Gaudiya teachings.

Besides, if we accept such "reasoning", where will it end? If we equate "confidential" with "scandalous", then it's not just a problem for the cowherd boys -- even the peacocks will need to run and hide!

LOL Well, fortunately some standards have been set by Mahaprabhu:

rasabhasa hoy jadi siddhanta virodh, sohite na pare prabhu mone hoy krodh -

"If there were conflicting flavours or bogus philosophy, Mahaprabhu would not tolerate it and get angry."

Suppose this is a clause to ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamyaham

Madhavji
Earlier on this thread you had said that your Gurudeva said that gaura nagari bhav is not for sadhaks.
That would mean its only for siddhas then?
But how would jeevs who, after hearing about that mood of those siddhas and becoming inspired, ever attain to that same bhav unless they did the appropriate sadhan for it?

As far as the authenticity for such a bhav, the conclusion I came to is that this bhav has for its basis the same platform as the Saraswat dhara.
Jeevs who feel attracted by the mood of such personalities in Gaur nagari bhav pursue their taste without reference to the mainstream line.
In the same way, jeevs who have been inspired by BSST pursue his line of innovations without reference to the mainstream line.
As far as the diksha guru parampara issue, it is clear that BSST made innovations in this regard and the only justification of his followers for following that is that they regard him as a personality empowered to innovate. Fair enough. If they would just stick to that line of thought, like Srila Shridhar Maharaj did, and not try to justify the innovations with shastric evidence (which doesn't seem to be possible), then perhaps their stance would be better understood.
In the same way, there is not any "orthodox, mainstream, traditional" shastric evidence given by Rupa, Sanatan or Jeev Goswami in regards to gaura nagari bhav. The followers of this bhav are following their own tastes in anugatya of vaishnavas like Narahari, etc.

I can't recall saying such a thing in this thread. In any case, I think the idea is that some siddhas in madhurya-bhava, such as Narahari as Madhumati, projected their siddha-moods into Gaura, who is none other than Krishna, and this gave rise to the Gaura-nagari fantasies expressed in some of their poems.

As for whether it's for sadhakas, what Prabhu wanted to reach for sadhana, he taught to Rupa-Sanatana and ordered them to write it down. Thus we have plenty on sadhana and sadhya. Had Gaura wanted Nagari-bhava for sadhakas, He would have arranged for it to be taught and approved of it.



Of course in the end everyone is free to pursue their innovations as they wish. It's just that such things have to be recognized as what they are, innovations which are not the mainstream Gaudiya thought, the teachings of Rupa-Sanatana -- instead of proposing that they are something "beyond" it, something reserved for those who yearn for the "real real thing".

Madhav,
it was in an old raganuga thread that you said that, can't find it right now.

As far as the innovations of BSST, they are recognized as such by the Gaudiya Math as far as I see.
Any biographical sketch that I have read of his life mentions "innovations" and "a breakaway from the orthodoxy".

Of course it would be recognised by them as they were perhaps his only supporters.

I still fail to see your logic and reasoning:
What the heck do the Sarasvatas have to do with Gaura-nagari bhava? I fail to see how you have connected the two and how the Sarasvatas are even relevant to this topic.

In any case, both are not approved of in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.

Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu smiled and showed Ramananda Raya His svarupa- the form of Rasaraja and Mahabhava combined. (Cc.,Madhya 8.282)

Although many biographers have written about Caitanya's lila, each author depicts a different mood of Caitanya, each of which is relishable and supremely worshipable. VDT depict Caitanya in his feature as Suprime Lord , KKG's descriptions centre on Mahabhava personality, and in Caitanya Mangala ,Locana's Caitanya is the Rasaraja.

Sri Caitanya certanly did desire that his followers attain the prema seva of the manjaris.Yet, rupanuga bhaktas on the raga marga, however, do worship Gaura lila.Knowning that Krsna advents as Gauranga to accept Radha bhava, they meditate on Gaura's Radha bhava lila before meditating on Vraja lila in manjari bhava. But, as Gadadhara Prana Prabhu ji said, ''the outcome that often occurs when following this system is that one's attraction for radha Krsna's lila far outweights the attraction for that of Gaura.As such, such worshipers fully submerge themselves in the ocean of Krsna's Vraja lila after only briefly dipping into Gaura lila.At this point, however, a whole new world of rasamaya bhakti can begin.

In othe words,after a brief worship of Gaura in Radha bhava and after submerging oneself for a long time in Radha Krsna's kunja lilas, one may resurface in Navadvipa again to take up Gauranga's Rasaraja worship.Because Sri Gauranga is Mahabhava Svarupini Radha and Rassraja Krsna combined, both features form an exquisite enrapture for his bhakta followrs to share with him.

After studying the entirety of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, we find that Six Gosvamins teachings form a major pillar of Sri Caitanya's prema dharma. I agree with that.The manjari seva which can be had by following in Sri Rupa and Ragunatha's footsteps is unmatched.But to learn the confidential secrets of Gaura lila, one will greatly profit by hearing about Caitanya's amazing qualities from the Mahajanas whose main focus is their attraction for Him. I don't understand what is wrong with that?

Also, I agree that Rupanuga worship essentially means Radha dasya seva because Rupa Gosvami is Sri Rupa Manjari,the foremost guide for everyone's Radha seva.Yet, in Gaura lila, Radha has directly appeared as Gadadhara Pandita. In his Radha-gadadhara-dasakam Rupa Gosvamin affirms this and said:

In the Kaliyuga, Sri Vrndavanesvari radha, the bestowerof prema bhakti, appears as Gauranga's confidante Sri Gadadhara Pandita.And he is the foremost amongst the panditas owing to the prema ratna which ornaments him.

The overall mood that we can imbibe from this verse is that Sri Rupa earnestly desires to follow- in Gadadhara Pandita's footsteps which is more then logical from the tattva angle of vision, also.

Rupa Gosvami is Sriman Mahaprabhu's sancarita sakti, which means that he is empowered by the Lord. Yet Gadadhara is Gaura's nija sakti, or his potency personified e.t. Gosvamis are all Sri Gadadhara's kaya vyuha(direct bodily expansions) . Thus , it is only natural that those empowered follow the power's source. And this put Gadadhara Pandita in the position to be everyone's source of mercy and ultimate shelter. And that same Radha-Gadadhara had vowed to never leave his service to Tota Gopinatha, and although Gopinatha is Radha-Gadadhara's life and soul, His overriding Gaura anuraga made him leave Gopinatha's seva behind ! For when Gauranga started for Vrindavana, Gadadhara eagerly followed, even though the Lord forbade him.So, Gaura-Gadadhara-tattva, and Nadia-nagari-vada is very confidential and complex and at this place I would like to quote few lines ( from preface for Gadadhara Prana's book ) writen by venerable Jagadananda Prabhu ji : '' Even if one finds that this mood is not for to his or her taste, it would be wise to recognize that the ocean of bhakti rasa is vast and the flavours of love the devotees exchange with thir Lord are infinite.''

As a some kind of conclusion I would like to say that we can observe a parallel in our worship of Gaura and Krsna's lila. Just as we can follow in Sri Rupa Manjari's footsteps to attain Radha Govinda's seva in Vraja, why couldn't we follow in Sri Rupa Gosvami's footsteps to attain Gadadhara-Gauranga's yugala seva in Nadia as well ? Since the mood and the mellows of the two lilas are closely interrelated, I hope that the suggestion surely has merit.


With respect,

Don't fear sakhi !
There is nothing more to fear. Let us take the load off our chests and try to remain calm.
Let whoever wishes to, criticize. We won't listen. We'll just swim across the ocean od scandal to escape.
Let them address us as Gaura kalankini. Damn, damn, damn those chaste young housewives.
Everyone is going to end up disgraced by GorA.
When that happens, says Locana, we'll have nothing more to fear.
(pada by Locana dasa Thakura)

Yet, I am affraid that the majority of Caitanya's followers lose sight of Him as their ultimate goal.

With respect,

This is a complete speculation and there is not a syllable of evidence for it in Rupa Gosvami's writings.



No it does not, due to a total lack of evidence for this in Rupa Gosvami's writings.

The mystery is, since Mahaprabhu is Rasaraja Sri Krishna and Mahabhava-svarupa Sri Radha in one form, what business does that form have in playing around with the ladies of Navadvipa? Gaura is Rasaraja Krishna laden with the complexion and bhava of Mahabhava-svarupa Sri Radha. Kindly explain, how does Radha-bhava prompt Gaura to play around with the ladies of Nadia?



Well, there are different conceptions on what the greatest secrets of Gaura-lila are. I take it that an in-depth understanding of how Radha-bhava pulls Him around, turning Him into a madman, is the zenith of Gaura-lila. This understanding certainly goes together with the threefold explanation of the inner reasons for His descent.

These three reasons are: 1. To comprehend His own sweetness as Sri Krishna; 2. To comprehend the depth of Sri Radha's love for Sri Krishna; and 3. to comprehend the boundless joy of Sri Radha. As far as I can see, playing around with the ladies of Nadia does not further any of these causes. Therefore we must conclude that whatever pastimes with the ladies of Nadia may be there, they are not the pinnacle of Gaura-lila.



This Radha-Gadadhara-dasakam, it is not there in Stavavali, nor can I find it mentioned in GVA. Do you know anything about the history of this text?

Alas! The waves in the Ocean of Scandal have brought us to the shore of a very curious island! Oh Sakhi! That such a beautiful Dvipa became visible to our eyes is certainly a mystery! How is it that kalankinis such as ourselves, with black spots on our characters, have achieved residence in Sveta(white) dvip?

It is not there in Stavamala nor in any genuine registrat or index of Rupa Gosvami's writings, including those in Bhakti Ratnakara, Caitanya Caritamrita and indeed the very thorough and detailed Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana. With such an overwhelming absence of confirmation we can safely conclude that it is not written by Rupa Gosvami. From the viewpoint of logic also it could not have been written by Rupa Gosvami, for it would contradict the conclusion of all his other writings.

This for one is an aspect that disturbs me with the contemporary Gauranagari approach, te very flimsy quality of evidence presented, and additionally the rather far-fetched interpretations of known texts.

Caitanya Caritamrta describes Radha-tattva as follows:

Krsna has three types of kantas :
1)the Vaikuntha Laksmis
2)the Dvaraka queens
3)the Vraja gopis, who form the essence.

All of these kantas expand from Sri Radhika. Just as Sri Krsna is the source of all avatara, Sri radhika is the source of these three types of amsa or partial representation of Herself.The Laksmis are Radha's vaibhava vilasa murtis, the Dvaraka queens are Her vaibhava prakasa svarupas, and the Vraja devis are Her kaya vyuha svarupas. Since rasa isn't exciting without many kantas, all of these kantas expand from Radha to take up different roles in Sri Bhagavata's various lilas.

In Cc Adi, 1.41 Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvamin said:

Gadadhara and other are Gauranga's own potencies; thus I offer thousands of obeisances to their lotus feet.

We will make the mistake if we think that Caitanya's mercy lies exclusively with Six Gosvamins and neglect the teachings of his other parsads.

mahaprabhura gana saba patita-pavan
bhramanda tarite sakti dhare jane jan

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's associates are all patita pavana- each one has the potency to deliver the entire universe.

So as the Gosvamins were deputed to uncover Vrndavana's hidden Radha-Krsna upasana, what about the Caitanya parsadas who focussed their attention on Caitanya ?And wouldn't their message be equally important ?

Just like Gadadhara Prana Prabhu said:
After all, Caitanya Vaisnavism reach par excellence hen the Navadvipa and the Vraja rasa combine.

or KKG in his Caitanya-caritamrta:

'Caitanya's lila is full of nectar.When mixed with the camphor of Krsna's lila, it makes the most tasteful combination. By sadhu and Vaisnava krpa, those fortunate to relish this mixture surely know where the most sweetnes lies.

with respect,

There are few of them from Gadadhara Prana Prabhuji and Narahari Cakravarti.

Krsna performed the vastra harana lila toa ssure the gopis.Thus they learned that Krsna had accepted their prayers and that He would become their prana vallabha (heart's beloved) .Then Rasa-lila follows.Similarly, Gaurasundara performed vastra harana lila to offer His bhaktas the same assurance.

By the way, such krida are only possible with the internal nagari svarupas of such bhaktas.Nadia-nagaris are none other than the Vraja-gopis.

Narahari Cakravarti offers another explanation for Gauranga's nagarali affairs in the following pada:

There is no end to Gauranga's Nadiya-nagara antics and I don't care a fig about what others say, for I have seen them with my own eyes.

Yet if someone asks, ''In this avatara. how is that possible? '' I will answer,the reason for this is well known Everyone knows that nobody can change their nature.So , even if restricted, will He not act according to His nature anyway?'

If they reply, ' I haven't witnessed this nature of His.' Then I will humbly submit that the whole world is a witness.

''Don't you know that Saci's dulala was ptreviously Yasodanandana? I cannot fully describe the extent of Krsna's intimate love affairs in Vrndavana.

And Vrndavana is Nadia and Nadia is Vrndavana.Krsna's Vraja companions have become Gauranga's bloved companions and as they sing his glories, they enjoy Nadia vihara with Him. ''

Ignoring the fear of disgracing their families, all of the kulavati ramanis rush to please their prana priya GorA and Narahari is a witness.
(from Gaura-carita-cintamani)

with respect,

gorAra nAma amiyA dhAma
pirIti mUratI dAtA

Because we chant GorA's name.

'' Gora's name is an abode of nectar which awards Gauranga's pirIti mUrati or divine form of love.''

with respect,

This is not a statement that Mahaprabhu ordered each of them to teach bhakti rasa in books filled with scientific and scriptural details as he did to Rupa or bhakti vidhi as he did to Sanatan. There are no statements as such to or about Narahari Sarkar.



No, it is their private feeling, there is no evidence that Mahaprabhu told them to preach this worldwide. Mahaprabhu came to bring Krishna bhakti, not Gaur bhakti.



Here Caitanya lila refers to the pastimes of Mahaprabhu in that very book, Caitanya Caritamrita. You should not quote out of context. There is not a syllable in Caitanya Caritamrita about Mahaprabhu fiddling around with the Nadia Nagaris.

Would Rasaraja Krsna's three unfulfilled desires in going after Radha's asraya ananda become satiated by relishing Her viraha rasa alone ?

And moreover, according to Ujjvala-nilamani , Radha's highest prema aspect of madanakhya mahabhava manifest only during Her sambhoga (mohanakhya is mahabhava prema's relish in the state of viraha ; its intensity is slightly less than that of madanakhya maha bhava ) .So if Caitanya' relish were limited to viraha rasa ,he would miss this and thus his Radha bhava lila would be rendered incomplete.
Since Caitanya advented to taste Radha prema, he surely wouldn't leave any aspect of it unturned , what to speak of the highest aspect.

If Radha bhava Caitanya were to go on running, running and running after Krsna, and find no more than a sphurti which suddenly disappears, would this be enough to pacify him ?

I hope that the devotees having great interest into Radha and Krsna's loving affairs will appreciate these topics.

with respect,

Well, did Prabhu not relish both viraha and milana in His various sphurtis at Purusottama-dhama?



Gaura-nagara is not in the position of Azraya, but in the position of vizaya. Playing with the damsels of Nadia thus has little to do with Radha's mohanAkhya-mahAhAva.

When Caitanya takes the saktiman role (as Rasaraja) ,then Gadadhara reciprocates as his sakti .Yet when Caitanya desires to relish his asraya ananda (Radha bhava) , then Gadadhara can become the saktiman Rasaraja .

with respect,

The story is getting real wild here.

All this is juggling, juxtapositioning and whatnot. This logic is nowhere presented by the Gosvamis.

To show an example I will include the following pada by Jnanadasa (disciple of Jahnvai Thakurani and one amongst Caitanya's 64 mahantas) in this post :

sonAra gauracAnde
ure kore dhari phukarI phukari
hA nAtha baliyA kAnde
gadAdhara mukhe chala chala Ankhe
cAhaye nisvAsa chAri
ghAme titi gela saba kalevara
thira nayane nehAri
viraha Anale dAhaye antara
bhasma nA haya deha
ki budhi kariba kothA bA jAiba
kichu nA bolAye keha
kahe haridAsaki baliba bhAsa
kise hena haila gorA
jnAna dAsa kahe rAdhAra pirIti
satata se rase bhorA

While in Radha bhava and drenched in tears, Sonara Gauranga catches Gadadhara's hand (who is in Krsna bhava) to repeatedly explain, '' O Master ! O Master !'' And from Gadadhara's piercing flower glance Gauranga's entire body becomes soaked in perspiration.He burns from the pangs of viraha, yet somehow, amazingly enough, His body doesn't become charred to ashes. What I should I do ?And where shall I go ?''
Gauranga contemplates...yet there is no answer.Then Rasaraja Gadadhara brings about Their yugala milana.And Haridasa exclaims, ''Aha, how can I explain what is happening to Gauranga ? ''
Jnanadasa says, He is totally merged into Radha's priti.

Caitanya and Gadadhara's svarupas can interchange according to the lila. In Radha's and Krsna's pastimes we find numeruos instances of this taking place.When Ramananda Raya mentioned prema vilasa vivarta ,Caitanya covered his mouth, as to not expose the matter.
Just as Radha and Krsna are the supreme sakti and the supreme saktiman divinity (Cc Adi 4 ) ,whose roles are interchangeable, so too are Caitanya and Gadahara. By the way, even before Caitanya's advent, poet Candidasa wrote about Radha's desire to assume Krsna's role.

But, if you think that it's wild...what can I say ?

with respect,

There is much more in the translation than there is in the original text. The original text does not speak of Gadadhara being in Krishna-bhava or becoming Rasaraja. I also cannot see their milana in the text. Perhaps you'd help me out?

At any rate, I am not saying that there can be no premavivartavilAsa with Gaura-Gadadhara. But what does that have to do with Gaura playing around with the Nadiya-nagaris and how that would fulfill the quest for Radha-bhava?

HARE KRISHNA
So, do the rupanuga vaishnavas view Gaura nagar bhav as bogus?
How could it be when Narahari and other parikars of Mahaprabhu themselves relished and wrote about it? They obviously wanted to share that bhav with others, otherwise where is the need for writing so many padas?

How come everything has to be divided into "bogus" and "bonafide"?

Gauranagari is fine, and those who like it should have it, but they shouldn't try to super-impose it upon everyone else, including past acaryas who didn't teach it.

I think that many private poets do not want their poetry to be read by anyone and everyone. The fact that a poet writes doesnt mean he wants it to be preached worldwide. Who would reveal intimate private expressions in public?

What Gaurasundar?
Narahari, Vasu Ghosh and Govinda Ghosh are not "approved of in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition"?!?!
They ARE the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition!

If you carefully read that post, you'll find that I am questioning your bringing-up of Sarasvatas and comparing them to Gauranagari-upasakas.

As far as being approved of in GV tradition, I am referring to the situation in how they have alienated themselves from the mainstream. One thing you learn from this thread is that all the authorities involved (Six Gosvamis etc) preached manjari-bhava as the goal to aspire for. Gauranagaris may be fine but this is not the message I hear from the Gosvamis, Acharyas, etc. Same with the Sarasvatas, there are differences over the issue of eligibility for raganuga-bhakti, etc etc. I do not want to rehash these, thanks. They may have their own benefits but they have alienated themselves from the mainstream tradition.

In any case, these are just my current opinions.

Vasu and Govinda Ghosh are Gauranagari-upasakas?

I wish I had the bengali padavali kirtan book here with me to quote to you the kirtans of those two, and many more, who relished that mood.

Like this one by Vasudeva Ghosa:

Today,prema has overwhelmed me as never before.I dreamt that I was sleeping in Gaurasundara's arms.And when gazing upon his face, I become choked up.Thus my tears trickled onto my breasts to form a lustrous black necklace of collyrium.And as my tilaka dripped over my clothes, they slackened and fell aside.Thus speaks Vasu Ghosa,agape with prema.

or this one by Govinda dasa

O sakhi! Look, at that Nagara Gaura! He is the golden full-moon who elates the entire universe.And while surrounded by the sundarI ramanIs of NadiA.He is a jewel of qualities.Being carefree and rasamaya,he appears like the nagara raja amongst his associates.Although his smiling face conquers Cupid,it also smites every playful young girl's fear and shyness.Thus the bhaktas' lily-like hearts are overjoyed as he continuously plays within their minds.And just as the moon enjoys vilasa (love-making) with the Rohini star, Gauranga excites the young ramanis minds with unceasing erotic rapture.He enjoys such prema vilasa with the Nadiya vinodinis while refreshing their bhavas.Thus the lady bee of Govinda dasa's mind hankers ti sip the sweet honey from his lotus face.

with respect,

How many internal reasons for His descend are there?

rAdhikAra bhAva kAnti kari’angikAra
nija rasa AsvAdite kariyAcha avatAra

CC madhya lila 8.279

To taste (AsvAdite) Your OWN (nija) transcendetal sweetness (rasa), You (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) descended in this world (avatAra ) appeared (kariyAcha) and accepted (kari’angikAra) the transcendental sentiments (bhAva) and lustre (kAnti) of Srimati RadhikA (rAdhikAra).

Please Jiva Prabhu give some evidence from the revealed Sastra.

Dear anAdi (Braj Mohan Prabhuji),

If you remember, in one of Narottama dasa's songs, he said : hede he nAgara-vara, suno he muralI-dhara, e.t. Radhika prays to take birth as a male so that she may always remain in Krsna's company. Her heartache is thus expressed : '' O My nAgara-vara! O MuralIdhara ! ... Alas, if providence had not created Me a woman, surely I could have always roamed with You from place to place.''

The followers of Nadia-nagari-vada explains that here we discover why Nadia-nagari bhava is the logical outcome of the gopis' plight after Krsna left them to become GorA. As he wanted to hide himself for the chance to relish their sweet mellows. Would they let him get away it alone ? Hence a sensational rasa is born as they rejoin him in Nadia. But this time the Vraja-sundaris are equally clever as their master, for they hide their nari-svarupas to take male forms.

In Rupa Goswami's Stavamala, we find next sloka :

apAram kasyApi pranayI-jana-vrndasya kutuki
rasa-stomam hrtvA madhuram upabhoktum kam api yah
rucim svAm Avavre dyutim iha tadIyAm prakatayam
sa devas caitanyAkrtir atitarAm krpayatu

May Caitanyadeva bestow his limitles mercy upon us. In sporting curiosity,He enjoys plundering the indescribable wealth of madhura prema from his loving bhaktas.Thus his syamala bodily hue becomes covered by their golden effulgence.

Gadadhara Pranaji says that here we can see how Rupa Gosvamin is steeped in admiration over Krsna's etrnal Rasaraja nature.Although herein he also equates Krsna with GorA.Indeed, Krsna did plunder the gopis' youthful beauty to enjoy the wealth of their madhura prema. But the poin that Rupa Gosvamin is making is that to continue doing so. Krsna hides his syama-rupa, along with his rasika-nature,behind their golden rffulgences (of whom Radha is the foremost ).Then he becomes caitanyakrtir devah - the form of Caitanyadeva.So Caitanya is that selfsame Rasaraja who always thirsts to enjoy conjugal loving exchange with his pranayI bhaktas.

And continue, ''...we see that he (Rupa Gosvamin) earnestly prays to Sri Caitanya saying nah atitarAm krpayatu. In order words, we may here conclude that sri Rupa also hankers to serve the Gaura as the enjoyer of conjugal mellows (madhuram upabhoktum) , along with his other pranayini bhaktas, i.e., those who worship him as female conjugal lovers.

with respect,

Braja Mohan posts with the nick Adiyen, not Anadi.

So, they roam about with Gaura in male forms. How, then, does the concept of ladies of Nadia enjoying amorous sports come in? It does not follow from the proposition given above.



The conclusion presented does not logically follow from what is directly expressed in the text. Rupa Gosvami does not say in the verse what the commentator would like to have us believe he says. Nowhere does Rupa speak of Caitanya as the enjoyer of female lovers. The direct meaning of the verse is splendidly clear.

[Dear jiva Prabhu,
with all due respect, it was not convincing.



But what kind of abhisara can the male Radha have with the male KriSna?
I think we go to rasabhasa.

Radha in madanakya mahabhava of separation sees even Yamuna and the deers more fortunate than Herself.
Would She become the deer?


Maybe if Gaura would have been a woman.
Maybe if Gaura would not have taken sannyasa.
Maybe they would become like love and beloved, with exchanged roles.
But according to rasa tattva (Srila Rupa Gosvami) this is not possible.
There is only one object of love : Brajendra Nandana Sri kRSNa.

And in His antya lila Gaurasundara made it very clear.
KRSNa is the only viSaya tattva. Gaurasundara was in love with Sri KRSNa.

Please refute the above statements.

with due respect and admiration
anAdi

Post moved.

Please do so.

GORA, GORA, GORA!

Mahadev ki jay!

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Interesting topic. About three weeks ago I picked up Sri Caitanya Mangala and I was caught by some of the references he made in regards to Gauranga’s exchanges with the residents of Nadia especially surrounding the time of his marriage to Laksmidevi. Locana dasa Thakura’s words brought me to view similarities between these exchanges and the sentiments in relation to Krsna with the Gopi’s. This was something that had never really dawned on me before.

I didn't see anything to specifically bridge these particular statements to a conclusion such as what was introduced by Jiva but I thought there were similarities. I obviously don’t know how on would reconcile where it is said that Caitanya had relationships with any female lovers nor does it reconcile the Gopi’s taking on a male form yet enjoying with Caitanya.

The sentiments expressed and recorded by Locana dasa Thakura seem to me to show some similarities but what else is there?

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Locan Das was a follower of Narahari Sarakara. His Dhamali is openly in Gaura-nagari mood. Caitanya Mangala is not that obvious.

It was explained in some of my old posts . Anyway...

Gadadhara Prana Prabhu said that although the Vraja gopis have assumed male forms in following Krsna's transformation to GorA , still they cannot forget their previous madhura tie. Rather, these loving pastimes continue to unfold with GorA , with ever newer and newer relish. Their internal nagari bhava is thus their overriding service mood to him .

Also,here is a sample from Locana's Dhamali:

As my Gauranga dances , his prema rasa seeps from his brilliant , golden effulgance, like nectar-honey oozing from a golden desire tree. AhA , what a form ! His hips are cocked crooked , while a sweet spreading smiles adorns his face.Thus seeing his mohana rupa ( enticing form) ,my family attachment is going...going...gone ! What amazing dancing poses and bodily effulgence ! The young kisori girls in Nadia are simply stunned ! Their minds are churing , their family ties sinking and Cupid's arrows sail ! Locana says , since even Cupid is spellbound , who else can remain sober ?
with respect,

In Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja said :

sri krsna caitanya gosai vrajendra kumara
rasamaya murti krsna saksad srngara
sei rasa asvadite kaila avatara
anusange kaila sab raser pracara

Sri Krsna Caitanya Gosai is that selfsame rasamaya bhagavan,Vrajendranandana, who is srngara rasa ( ''conjugal love'' ) pertsonified. He has specially come to relish srngara rasa , yet in so doing, he simultaneously promotes all of the other rasas.

During union between Radha and Krsna , they can no longer recognize their individuality. Yet , this should not appear astonishing for Krsnadasa said :

Although Radha and Krsna are one soul , they assume two forms to enjoy [I]vilasa rasa ( Adi 4 ).[/I]

Then KKG said:

Now these two have become One as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to relish their bhavas. (adi 4 )

The siddhanta that two lovers are rquired for nurturing prema and sharing vilasa can never be overlooked , even for Sri Bhagavan who is atmarama.Thus as Radha and Krsna are one soul in two forms - so are Gaura and Gadadhara .And hence , during the height of their sambhoga ecstasy , their separate consciousness also merges into one. Yet it is then that their identities may interchange , too. For example , when Gauranga assumes Radha's bhava to relish viraha rasa in Krsna's separation , then Gadadhara can assume Krsna's [I]bhava to offer the pleasure of yugala milana and sambhoga[/I]. Sri Hari Mohana Siromani Gosvamin , gurudeva of Haridas dasa Gosvamin , explains: '' When Sri Gauranga takes the saktiman role (as Rasaraja) , then Sri Gadadhara reciprocates to relish his sakti. Yet when Sri Gauranga desires to relish his asraya ananda (Radha bhava) , then Gadadhara can become the saktiman Rasaraja to offer prema seva behind the curtain of Maharasa sankirtana.''

In Radha and Krsna's pastimes we find numeruous instances of this taking place. Here is an example from Kavi Karnapura's Krsnahnika-kaumudi:

During the height of viraha , Radha's intense Krsna meditation makes Her believe that She is Krsna . Then Krsna becomes merged (tad-Atma-prApta ) in Radha's bhava. Yet due to Their intoxication during the madhu pana lila , the same event takes place. Thus sweet-smiling Radhika addresses Krsna:' Hey Radhe !' Krsna answers , 'Hey Krsna!' Then Radha said , ' Oh , are you my dasi [/I][/I]?No, no ,you are my prana , for I cannot live a second withou you.' Then Radha's-Krsna's rati keli begins with ever-new ecstasy in viparita-vilasa ! ''

Therefor previously I quoted pada by Jnanadasa (included in Sri Hari Mohana Siromani Gosvami's '' Sri-Gadadhara-sandarbha'' )

with respect.

Yes, yes, but from what position?

According to rasa tattva KriSna gives up His ViSaya tattva position
and takes the position of ASraya tattva, tasting that what he could not taste before (His own sweetness).
In this way Krishna is also in rasa complete.Tasting rasa from both position, only He can do like that.

So He came in this gaura lila primarily to taste His own sweetness. Any other mood will be a disturbance to attain this goal, that’s why He doesn’t stay in Vraja, because He will become blackish, and This is not what He wants in this lila.
That is why his associates are not like gopis, even if they are gopis.

rAdhikAra bhAva kAnti kari’angikAra
nija rasa AsvAdite kariyAcha avatAra

CC madhya lila 8.279

To taste (AsvAdite) Your OWN (nija) transcendetal sweetness (rasa), You (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) descended in this world (avatAra ) appeared (kariyAcha) and accepted (kari’angikAra) the transcendental sentiments (bhAva) and lustre (kAnti) of Srimati RadhikA (rAdhikAra).

And Gaura said: look at Me I will show you the way to vraja!
The way to Vraja is vipralambha, this is my sweet torture!
What did he teach?

hare kRSNety evaM gaNana vidhinA kirtayata bhoH


with respect and admiration

It is quite clear
Sri Gauranga desires to relish his asraya ananda (Radha bhava)
and taste his own sweetness. Than it comes the suppositon that Gadadhanra can become Krishna.
Was this only a suposition or it has been recorded by the associates of Mahaprabhu?

Is this siddhanta supported be our rasa acarya Srila Rupa Gosvami?

During the height of viraha , Radha's intense Krsna meditation makes Her believe that She is Krsna . Then Krsna becomes merged (tad-Atma-prApta ) in Radha's bhava. Yet due to Their intoxication during the madhu pana lila , the same event takes place. Thus sweet-smiling Radhika addresses Krsna:' Hey Radhe !' Krsna answers , 'Hey Krsna!' Then Radha said , ' Oh , are you my dasi [/I][/I]?No, no ,you are my prana , for I cannot live a second withou you.' Then Radha's-Krsna's rati keli begins with ever-new ecstasy in viparita-vilasa ! ''[QUOTE]

Here in this lila although addressed differently they remain in their own svarupa!

And then in gaura lila, when they change the form, their svarup are not anymore compatible!
Krishna becomes gaura, Krishna Himself with the mood of Radhika.
Radhika has the eternal svarupa of Gadhadara Pandit but internally has the mood of Krishna? No, what was recorded is that He was internally Radha.

I am afraid Gadhadara pandit sees in Gauranga Sri Krishna.
Gadhadara pandit doesn't see Himself as Krishna. (I should look up for quotes.)
And all his associates see in Gauranga Sri Krishna not in Gadhadara Pandit (I should look up for quotes, but I think there are so many!)

See (Gaura G Dipika).


with respect and admiration

Interesting also the fact that Gadadhara Pandit, which is Radha concealed,
switches to Krishna, for what? For sambhoga!

It seems a little bit extremely twisted.
Gadhadara Pandit gives his body to Sri Caitanya in madhurya sambhoga, behind the scene od sankirtana party. Yes, the special feature of madhurya sambhoga is that one gives also the body to the Lord, not available in any of other rasas.

And vipralabha from Gadhadara Pandit, that Sri Caitanya discusses with Svarupa Damodara?

Caitanya hears from Svarupa Damodara about the glories of Gadhadara Pandit?
and runs in the ocean to cath Him?

I am confused. From the sadhaka point of view ( on wich gaura nagari should be)
Audarya lilla is a pointer on madhrya lila, shell we mixed them or only understand the similarities?

To claim that Sakti tattva switches to Vishnu tattva on behalf of their oneness it seems to be a new siddhanta.

Maybe you have some qoutes, in this regard, but there is a condition:
concerning rasa vicara and tattva vicara in gaudya line I accept only Rupa-Sanatana, Jiva and Raghunath and whoever abides by their lines.


with respect and admiration

As for adhering to the Rupanuga system, it can easily be combined with the Rasaraja worship if one desires.

Because Caitanya's mood constantly changes , sometimes we find him deeply absorbed like Radha in the Vraja lila rasa , and sometimes the stunning flower glance of Gadadhara and others cause him to dive into the madhurya of his Nadia nagara svarupa.

Here are some of the differences which show how the two outlooks contrast:

- Rupa , Sanatana , Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya predominantly follow Caitanya's Radhabhava feature , whereas Narahari , Gadadhara, Locana and Vasudeva Ghosa focus on his Rasaraja feature.

- Caitanya's Rasaraja mood mostly unfolds in Navadvipa , whereas his Radha bhava feature flourishes in Puri.

- Caitanya's Rasaraja mood focuses on sambhoga , whereas his Radha bhava rasa relish mostly centers primarily on vipralambha.- Caitanya's Rasaraja feature captures his as the visaya , but in Radha bhava he relishes the asraya mode.

In comparasion , Caitanya's Rasaraja and Radha bhava aspects are inseparable traits of his personality.

I would like to finish dis discussion with the words of Visvambhara dasa Baba from his Sri-Sri-Rasa-raja-Gauranga-svabhava :

bhagavAner ei vAkya jadi satya hay
tAhA haile nAgarIra gorA ras pAy

If this promise (see B.G. 4.11 ) of Sri Bhagavan is true , then the nagaris will attain their desired gaura rasa.

with respect,

From the commentary of OF
SRILA JIVA GOSVAMI’S TIKA (BHAVANUVADA)
on ther verse
ISvaraH paramaH kRSNah
sac-cid-Ananda-vigrahaH
anAdir Adir govindaH
sarva-kAraNa-kAraNam



I don't know when this "siddhanta" Sakti tattva switches to Vishnu tattva appeared but if anyone has any information please provide it.

Initially any apasampradaya has its roots in a bonafide source, but somewhere in time, somebody changed the siddhanta.


with respect and admiration

The essence (or cream ) of Sri Krna's lilas flow in hundreds of streams into the immortal sarovara of Sri Caitanya's pastimes . So , let the swan of your mind glide over those waters. (Cc. , Madhya 25.271)

According to the followers of Nadia-nagari-vada , the meaning of this metaphor is that all of the variegated mellows in Krsna lila take refuge in Gauranga's lila , so just relish them to your heart content like a swan which extracts milk from the water . For ,as Sri Gauranga tastes a variety of different mellows , so too his eternal bhaktas ideally serve him in the wake of his variegated and changing moods . And , as the kanta bhava is amongst the mellows that Sri Caitanya eagerly wihes to share , why not accept that too ? After all , Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami says , '' Kanta prema reaches the highest limit of mahabhava. '' (Cc. , Madhya 24. 34 )

with respect,

We have now heard several times possible interpretations from the point of view of Nagari-bhava. However, it has not really been addressed why the persons whose writings are sometimes adopted to support the vada do not explicitly state anything of the sort themselves.

The answer is that ,

'' Sriman Gaurasundara's rasa AsvAdana ( tasting of mellows ) is highly secret , for his nigUdha lila ( confidential pastimes ) are pracchanna ( hidden ) .Hence , Gauranga often forbade His followers from openly revealing His intimate affairs. And bearing this in mind , the Gosvamis, in order to preserve such hidden mellows for the rasika bhaktas , only slightly touched on these topics using hints and a covered language . . .Preaching the Vraja rasa was the Gosvamis' overall mission.'' (Gadadhara Prana dasa)

with respect,

Well, that may be an answer. Whether it is convincing or not is another matter.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I have been following this topic with great interest. In reading the works of Locana dasa Thakur I have gotten a glimpse of the vision and mood of worshipping Mahaprabhu in his Rasaraja feature. At the same time I never thought too deeply about such because I could never concern the specific philosophical points to understand these feelings. Nor can I figure out how to understand how this mood works within the Rupanuga approach.

“Nadia-nagari bhava is the logical outcome of the gopis' plight after Krsna left them to become Gaura. As he wanted to hide himself for the chance to relish their sweet mellows. Would they let him get away it alone?” I found this quote to be very interesting which I believe was written by Prabhu Gadadhar Pran. It is a beautiful sentiment and explanation on this form of worship and vision. Still I can’t concern the specific philosophical points used to support and understand these feelings or figure out how to understand how this mood works within the Rupanuga approach.

I wrote to Prabhu Gadadhar Pran in hopes of hearing his explanation on my questions. I have also order both his translations of Rasaraja Gauranga and Dhamali which were originally written by Locana dasa Thakur.

I found the above quote and points by Jivaji to be interesting.

In closing I hope that by reading Prabhu Gadadhar Pran’s translations I will get some insight into my questions.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa