How to deal with suffering? -

Sorry, this is definitely not an esoteric topic, but I think the question of suffering is something we have to face day by day. Usually, when we start to study and practice bhakti, we hear so many inspiring statements, like even oe Name will free us from all suffering, even a moment of association with a pure devotee brings all good fortune, Krishna will personally take care of those who surrender to Him etc. But as years pass, one has to realize that suffering is present in devotees' lives just like in the case of ordinary persons. Moreover, many devotees experience that their life was much easier and carefree before starting bhakti yoga. Yes, there are many instructions to be tolerant, to see suffering and pain as equal etc. However, I think all of us had started KC because we wanted happiness, we wanted to get rid of suffering. So sometimes, when I feel that wherever I look in my life, there are problems, I wonder how I could see the bright side of all that. Just telling to myself that it is only my karma does not help, at least in my case. Also, when one's my mind is full of problems, it is not easy to happily rejoice in bhajan. I would like to hear your realizations and experiences, of course it is possible that all of you are far beyond these things, then just ignore this.

We have discussed this in a recent thread, Openmind. Suffering is there for the devotees too, of course, this is the material world. However a devotee will react to suffering by taking shelter of his Ishta and not by whining, as does the non-devotee. Suffering strengthens the devotee's devotion.

Suffering? Try a flu combined with a sinus infection. Now that's relentless suffering over several weeks!

Sorry for the self-indulgence, but I just am in a ranting mood this morning. Some white-collar crooks stole almost ten percent from one of my retirement accounts in unauthorized fees in 2003. At that rate, there will be nothing left in the account by the time I retire. That will teach me to open mail early in the morning.

Take it from me that frequent coughing can be disruptive to bhajan. I once told my old friend the late Mani Babu (Manindranath Guha) as we took a japa walk in Vrindavan that I intended to really focus on my bhajan when I reached an advanced age. He laughed and told me that was a foolish idea, because when one gets old they have a more difficult time doing bhajan on account of all of their increased medical problems.

Medical technology is beneficial to bhajan. Be sure to visit your dentist twice a year for your regular checkup and cleaning, and don't forget to have an annual eye exam. For us fifty something men, there is the necessity of regular prostate exams, despite the fact that we (at least most of us) never look forward to the occasion. "A stitch in time saves nine." I won't even mention the colonoscopy that the doctors want to schedule for me. (Whoops, I mentioned it, didn't I?)

You say 'the late Mani Babu' ? Did Mani Babu pass away and if so, when, where and why?

Maybe not esoteric, but essential.

Openmind, What are you considering suffering?

I have not taken to Bhakti yet, although if I do, I'm not thinking that it will rid me of suffering or cause happiness. Actually, what are you considering Bhakti? If it is chanting, geting up early, etc, then no, I don't think a material action can produce a spiritual result. Forgive me if I'm offensive, but isn't it the inner Bhakti that is the impetus for all the other material actions. The actions are not material if provided there is a spiritual impetus, but on the otherhand purely material actions could exist and appear the same outwardly, but they are empty.

Anyway, there is suffering and there is sorrow. Sorrow is never suffering, actually, sorrow contains all joy and love. Just know that whenever you feel sad, the degree to which you are feeling this is indicative of the degree of joy you are capable of. The more sorrow I feel, the more I am reminded of my capacity to love God, and this is sublimely joyful. Not knowing the true nature of sorrow, joy or love is called suffering. All these feelings are part of our reservoir of love. This reservoir, this longing, it is the fundamental expression of our existence as souls. At another angle, misdirecting this reservoir away from God is suffering, and the cause for not understanding the oneness of sorrow and joy. You must cultivate your inner bhakti, nurture it like a small tree. Everyone is existing with inner devotion, they are just misdirecting it and this is the true cause of suffering. The tree is there, the root comes of the seed, the trunk and branches from the root and the leaves from the twigs. Poeple are nurtuing the leaves and the flowers. Men are not loving their wife, but her face and genitals. This is suffering. You must nurture the root in order to satisfy any part of the tree-soul-god. The soul comes from God as the leaves come from the seed and the soul is of God as the leaf is of the root. As the leaf gathers sunlight for the whole tree, so must one experience all emotions as varigated experssions of longing.

Yes, sadly it is true, Advaita Ji. I believe it was a few years ago, but I don't remember exactly when. Nitai may remember the specifics. You can email him. If I am mistaken (I don't always trust my memory at my age, plus sometimes I get bad information about what is happening in India), then please let me know. I do know that Dr. Kapoor definitely passed away not too long ago.

Kapoor Ji passed away in April 2001. His death was announced on VNN, but I didnt know about Mani Babu. I thought he was living in Navadvip still....

Suffering?
Read Bhramar Geet
You guys ain't seen nothin' yet!

At least in my experience, you will find the same things happening to devotees of other faiths as this is a common symptom of a follower. When I used to dabble in impersonalistic movements, I had a feeling of constant frustration and troubles rather like the ones you describe. These were mainly related to the choice of a specific spiritual path to take as well as the degree of spiritual advancement I could make when following such a path. When I came out of impesonalism and acepted the personalism of the Gaudiyas, I thought it was a breath of fresh air and enjoyed the "change," but as soon as I started chanting etc., I found more or less the same sort of frustrations that I felt before.

Personally, I put it down to the hard slog of purifying ourselves. If we've been circulating up and down in the universe (brahmanda bhramite) then we have acquired quite a huge amount of dross, the removal of which aids our journey to God. It's not an easy task to remove all this dross just as surgery would be seriously painful without anaesthetic, but then that's purification for you. Purification usually involves some sort of pain. On the other hand you can put it down to the travails of life in this tiresome jagat and simply cry to Srimati for release.

The reason I'm still here is that over the years when things get rough I turned to the Name, the Mahamantra, as a dear and intimate friend - always there when you hit rock bottom, when all else fails. I chant softly on my beads and feel calm and peace, sweetness, enormous potential...

But I see some people chanting 'their rounds' as if it is an enormous effort, 'beat your mind with a stick...'. No I can't approach it that way.

Once 20 years ago, in a hospital I had local surgery on my foot without anaesthetic while loudly chanting Mahantra. Those were the days (I was dressed in full dhoti, tilak, etc). Nowadays I chant softly. Anyway the interns thought I was doing something amazing, actually no one offered me anaesthetic, I wasn't trying to be a hero.

Mechanical chanting won't work. Your heart must be involved. Think of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, waiting for you in another world free of suffering, which you can glimpse occasionally.


If all that is difficult, then read the Dhammapada:

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/dhammapada.htm

When did he move from Vrindavan to Nabadwip? Are we talking about the same Mani Baba (Manindranath Guha whose wife is a gold medallist in Sanskrit literature)?

In devotee circles we often hear talk of some suffering being on account of the consequences of aparAdha. That is the crux of the matter: How do we distinguish between those types of reactions and those due to some residual karma? I doubt there is any way to tell for sure, not without some highly developed siddhi or someone with such abilites sorting it out for you.

Drugs that affect one's state of mind can alleviate some horrible types of bodily pain. There is no reason bhajan can't do the same for you.

Yes Manindranath Guha, who published the Ananda Vrindavan Campu and the Bhagavat tikas. I met him last in Radharaman Ghera, Vrindavan in late November 1985. At that point he and his wife Savitri, the Sanskrit prof, told me they were moving to Navadvip. Of course that is a long time ago......

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As many of you said before, devotees have to undergo suffering as well. So suffering is inevitable, the question is if we can accept it without anger and fear or not. If we can avoid thoughts like, "Oh, Krishna, it is really unfair." I just remember the story of Job from the Bible...

The other difficult topic is karma. Usually, when you speak about your problems to another devotee, he will say, "It is your karma." Now, if you ever had a dog, you know the general rule: if you want to punish your dog for some misdeed, you have to do it right away. If your dog pisses on the carpet, and you beat him up two moths later, the dog will never learn, he will never understand the lesson. Similarly, if your kid does some nasty thing, you should not wait for years with the punishment. Just imagine: you are 30 years old, and one morning your father cpmes up to you and hits you very hard. You ask him why, and he says it was because you had broken a vase when you were 5. Sometimes I feel the same: some suffering comes, and I ask God, "Why?", but no answer is given. So all I can do is speculate that I must have done something bad 10, 20 or 1000 years before. But this way I do not learn the lesson. If during suffering and disasters we could remember, "Oh yes, now I see that in my previous life I killed a man, so now I received a heart attack", it would be much much easier to tolerate, because you see the meaning behind. But since we do not remember the reason, it is easy to consider suffering as meaningless...

It has been clearly stated in the shastras that suffering for a devotee is only a learning process, not a question of karma. Suffering teaches us generally that we should not touch the forbidden fruits of the world. It is not a punishment for this or that prank. It also causes humility in the devotee and causes the devotee to take shelter more firmly and attentively than in good times. vipada santu nah shashvat tatra tatra jagad guro (SB 1.8.25) - check that one out.

What are you calling suffering? Psysical problems, I don't consider that suffering. Of course, the worst psysical pain I've ever had is a head-ache. But psysical pain, disease and dying are conditions of the material nature. They occour to the body but not the self. I do not consider karma as a form of "cosmic justice," or as punishment and reward. For example, the sign of Zodiac you are born under reflects your Karma much better than anything that happens to you. there are modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, there is no where a mode of evil, so how can there be cosmic punishment? I think your karma is just another way of saying what modes you are inclined to from past behavior in that mode. After that is established, you create your own percieved sufferings.. but this is not directly related to your karma. Your karma was that you were inclined to create those sufferings. Not remembering doesn't play a role, I think. The higher self always remembers. When you brush a piece of iron against a magnet, it doesn't have to remember. It becomes magnetized regardless. Similarly, learning takes place regardless of conscious memory.

In my view, being born a very rich man could be the result of less fortunate karma. The rich suffer much more than the poor.

Leo:
Suffering can be physical, emotional etc. Of course while you are young and healthy, you never think about that. To say that bodily pain is not considered suffering because it has nothing to do with the higher self, well, I wonder if you would be able to say the same while being in real pain. If you would, I bow down before you 108 times. There is a saying in my native language, "All philosophy ends in the dentist's chair". I truly admire those great souls who had realized that they are not their bodies. The test of our realization are the times of sickness, emotional suffering, poverty etc. When I read the first Vaishnava book at the age of 18 (Yoga of Perfection), I had read that first chapter called "We are not these bodies", and I thought, "Wow, this sounds cool!" and I kept on reading. But now, as I grow older, have a family, I have to face more and more troubles arising from sickness, family problems, etc etc., I must admit that my realization with regards to "I am not this body" is almost nil, in spite of many years of (certainly offensive) chanting, reading, associating.

Advaita:
This was something new (not to see suffering as some punishment for previous sins in case of devotees), I will contemplate that, thank you.

Dearmost Openmind,

Do you remember your thoughts when you were very young? I believe that as we age we gain preconceptions which is inedidable and are thoughts start to betray us. Therefore, I trust what I "knew" before I could even speak. I can probably not remember back then directly, but let's just say I remember remembering remenbering a hundred times. I think all memories follow that pattern. I was quite sure that I knew that I was not the body. My 2 year old cousin can speak very well and once I told her that her eyes were beautiful. She just replied that she has two of them, along with a nose, a mouth. What a gift to hear this? She seemed so detached from it all that it was obvious that she did not yet consider her body her. When I touched her, she was so indiffernt to it.. whereas older people have this "personal space."

It is true, I have never experienced very much pain (although it is all subjective). I have had headaches so bad that they almost made me vomit. And certainly, when I am sick I will proclaim that the most important thing you have is your health. My zen friend can "turn off" physical pain. And I did once. It is a matter of projecting your consciousness away from the body. In the dentist chair huh!? I have 4 fillings, and had a babytooth pulled (it was stuck). But I never expereienced pain. I think that the perception of pain is related to fear. So since I was never afraid of the dentist, I never had a bad experience there. Now, infact, I simply don't get cavities (I think it is related to an alkaline diet). Or if I do, they always heal (recalcify) within a few days. Yes, it is possible for small cavities to "heal."

By I am by no means a physical wonder. I am so skinny that I cannot float in water (3% body fat, 113 pounds) You can't tell from my photo huh? I can't run, do situps or anything. I was born with a misformed cerebellum in my brain. This means that my coordination is poor. But I cannot even imagine any physical pain worse that some of the emotional pain I have had. And ironically, through the years, I've begun to feel love and joy within the pain. Hence I say one must experience all emotions as variegate forms of the same longing. And I think the original cause of suffering (physical, mental or emotional), is not being very intimate with this longing. I don't know, it is just speculation for me.

All the best to you,
leo

Thank you Advaita dasji - that is how I use to deal with pain ans sorrow, etc. It was wonderful - that any sickness, etc can be turned into the path and so it was very nice; I am very thankful for it. But in regards to the start of this thread:


A few things - we start the spiritual path and progress easily until we come to the place in our eveloution that we had past life (so tp speak). Then the path seems to become much harder. (also psychologically anything new gives us alot of inspiration, etc - then the newness wears out and we are back to our usual psychological state we had before - then we start the 'real' work.) If we can understand that we are trading new ground and gear up for furtherance on the path. For as someone said here we are here to keep cleaning the 'dross' from our heart to see the God resodes within us - our very hearts! can't be closer than that! God is there ALL THE TIME! It is maddening at times! whew!

Anyway, there is an end to personal suffering. The Buddhist and Advaitins are correct! And the Vaishanava Bhakti will also experience this liberation of personal suffering as well. It takes alot for this to occur. It can, and does, happen in a second and one experiences the inconcievable! And if that experience is powerful enough and the container of the individual's soul is ready and capabile of holding it - it will become liberated experience - freedom from personal suffering. This is wholeheartdly possible and will happen with enough - what? practice, humility, sincereity, compassionate grace - something! Partly to know that it is possible! (good luck to us all!) then we continue our devotion and attain Prema-bhakti-seva

Suffering is a mirroring of personal processes in the mind. Pain is the resistance that we force on what we judge as undesirable, threatening to our lives or the joy that we expect from it. Even the most intense physical pain can be reduced, as Stephen Levine's work with terminal cancer patients in California has shown. He works with Vipassana meditation which is a technique of looking at the present moment at all times as what it is, as opposed to what the mind makes out of it.

There is no doubt that pain also has an objective reality in as far as a person experiences "something". Yet, by altering the perspective from resistance into acceptance, the objectivity of the the process of suffering is reduced and dissolved in the "here and now".

A prema-bhakta may not actively work with his or her suffering but simply overlook it due to his or her absorption in higher thought processes.

I think for us suffering is an opportunity to be ourselves in a more authentic way: Instead of being lost into objective processes we are fully exposed to our subjective reality. In suffering I am fully confronted with my existence, my limitations, my dependence from divine grace. In advancing age that state of reality becomes more and more prominent. For one with a religious bent it will be a time of taking refuge always. When I am suffering I can fully give myself to the Lord of my heart. In that sense he takes it away by my forgetting it. And yet, I will not glorify suffering as an ideal state to increase my opening up for divine grace. It is just another form of a stepping stone as any other life-expression can be too.

I agree, one can reduce physical pain with various meditative and self hypnosis techniques, and I have explored and used them. And there are some pains that cannot be fully controlled in this way. People also vary in their pain sensitivity, studies show, and also in their ability to handle it. Pain can also vary over time. I used to be one of those people that did not mind blood-draws. Now my veins are difficult to get an IV into and sometimes even to draw blood. Now it's very painful, also, so something must have changed.

I've had the opportunity to experience many extreme pains, from gallbladder attacks, childbirth, heart surgery, migraines, plantar fasciitis (try walking with a sharp stone in your shoe to picture that one), etc. I am also one of those extra sensitive nerve-ending folks who must be numbed on both sides of my teeth at least half an hour before they even start to drill or I'll come out of my chair. I did not start out afraid of dentistry--the pain started a cycle of fearing it. Yet I had a root canal that was painless because the dentist was an expert at applying anesthetic properly. I also meditate and do my labor-breathing in the dentists chair if I become anxious.

I couldn't have endured all of that without turning to my Goddess, doing my meditations, and just trusting in Her that the outcome would be all right, no matter what. The surgery was the biggest test because the thought of going to sleep and not knowing what was going to happen was really terrifying. I wouldn't be conscious to chant or anything, if I left my body I would be unconscious, the worst state in my opinion. I was truly scared of what would happen if I left my body in that state. And I was angry at myself for not being more advanced, more serene, in the face of possible death. All these years of believing that I didn't have to be afraid of death because I was not this body, and here I was, terrified. I spent a few hours in this state, until exausted I admitted to my Goddess that I was not in control and I was in Her hands. I did a self-blessing ritual lying in my hospital bed. (It begins, Bless Me Mother, for I am your daughter and involves blessing the different areas of your body to be dedicated to Her service.) And finally I got a few hours of sleep before they got me ready and took me down.

I contrast that to the time I thought I was going to die in a car accident--really fast I looked up and saw that we were going to hit the car in front of us, stopped at the freeway's ending (the driver had looked away for a minute adjusting something). We were going over 50 mph. I was 8 months pregnant. I didn't have time to think it over, I just closed my eyes and chanted "Hare Krsna!" and bang! And then, "Wow, I'm still here?....How's the baby?" and had a few moments of worry until he moved. I was banged up but alive. I was a young devotee and I was reassured by the fact that I immediately chanted. Probably a little smug. A bit like Jagat's account of the kanistha adhikari's show of certainty.

On two other occasions I was being choked by someone screaming they were going to kill me, and I was terrified then also. That was years ago and I felt the same sense of shame and "I should be more advanced than that" feeling that I had before my surgery.

Emotional suffering is simply intense in another way and I got to a point with that where I wanted to die at one time. Once again it leads you, finally, to a point where you know you're not the controller and you have to rely on God. When you lose everything else, you realize that the one thing you always have is your relationship with God.

We can and should learn that in other ways than besides suffering. I think I have to learn it that way simply because I'm dense.

I'm not sure I follow you here. I was born and raised poor, and was poor for a number of years as an adult. I know nothing about the lives of rich people, really, so I am sure I don't understand what forms their suffering may take. I know that money doesn't guarantee happiness, and yet after struggling to obtain the basic necessities of life I don't understand how having those things automatically isn't better. I can understand that rich people may suffer because they don't feel valued just for who they are, but rather for how much they have. I can imagine that they might feel pangs of guilt that others do suffer poverty while they have so much. I can imagine also that they lack a sense of challenge in their life if they don't even have to work for a living, and may be prone to laziness unless they receive really good parenting. I just don't understand how they can suffer more than poor people. I'm willing to have an open mind on the matter. Can you give me examples?

I do believe that being rich can be an obstacle to devotion if wealth distracts one from pursuing it. Although I believe that some great souls take birth as wealthy people simply in order to be philanthropists, as there are some that devote themselves to providing for others. Certainly wealth does not have to be a detriment to service and I met a wealthy heiress who surrendered at the Detroit temple once. I've forgotten her name.

In any event, I would like to hear more, if you woulld kindly elaborate.

Blessed Be,

Tapati

Perhaps too much emphasis on poverty as a virtue. Voluntary poverty is one thing, being born into it quite another. I know some very wealthy people. They may not be Bill Gates multi-billionaire level wealthy, but they do not have to worry about paying the bills. They can do whatever they want with their time and do not have to answer to anyone. That type of freedom should reduce one's stress to a minimum. On the other hand, there are interpersonal relationships that can cause us much anguish no matter what our financial situation. Believe me, the rich people are really no different from you and me. They have the same emotions, aspirations and frustrations in life. They may or may not have more fun than the rest of us, depending on how they choose to spend their leisure time. I don't see anything wrong with having fun. In fact, if you're not having any fun, then perhaps it is time to consider a change of careers, because you are probably doing something for a living for which you are not really suited.

Also, studies have shown that poor people are actually happier overall than wealthy people. Maybe those rich people are worring too much about all of that money and the thought of losing it, despite the fact that they will lose all of it at the time of death.

I certainly agree that many other factors in our life besides money affect our level of happiness, and there can be happier poor people than rich people. It is the idea that being rich brings more suffering than being poor that I find counter-intuitive and want to understand. I also agree that there's no inherent virtue in poverty. It is just one of those states where you often are moved to turn to God because you feel you have no other choice. Yet some people miss even that chance, and so their poverty has taught them nothing.

I am often comparing my present middle class life to my former poor life, and I have to say I am not eager to return to poverty. Yes there were moments of happiness back then, to be sure. The birth of my children, for instance, was certainly a high point. Good times with friends (such as kind ones cooking hand made raviolis for us ) and family, moments of spiritual insight--all of these things are not dependent on income levels.

Yet there were those despairing moments when I didn't think I could come up with enough money for food, my children's school clothes, other basic things they wanted, when they were embarrassed to bring friends home to our tiny 1 bedroom apartment (living room 9x13, bedroom 9x9), when I couldn't pay for things like piano lessons or other classes, or summer camp, when I was homeless and pregnant or homeless with two kids and my ex husband in the winter--and I am so grateful to be beyond that now. Now, if my car breaks down, it's an inconvenience and I whip out my credit card or pull money out of savings and just deal with it. Before, it was a financial crisis because the only place that money could come from was the food budget--the only thing that isn't fixed in a poor person's budget. (And we lived off the bus line back then, way off.)

I didn't so much mind poverty for myself, although it's not great, but watching my children suffer was torture. I couldn't get through school fast enough to save them from that.

So I am trying to imagine what kinds of suffering rich people experience solely as a result of their wealth, and I am failing because I just don't know enough about their lives. The only thing I can think of is always wondering if people are in your life just becaue of your money. That would be difficult for me to deal with.

added note: I want to be clear, I am not trying to be confrontational by asking, I am genuinely curious for some insight into the lives and manner of suffering of rich people. Part of what led me to anthropology is my innate curiosity about different cultures--and to me, wealthy people are in a different sub-culture.