Re-intiation or rtvik? - Taking a Poll

I am just curious as to what some of the Vaishnavas in here think about the rtvik initiations that were given in ISKCON during the Prabhupada era. I have always accepted my initiation as authentic and most all the devotees in the movement acknowledge the rtivik initiations as authentic, but sometimes I do wonder a little about these rtivk initiations that were given out by GBC men during the Prabhupada era. Prabhupada never chanted on my beads; Jayathirtha did. When I took second initiation Jayatirtha chanted on my thread and I heard the gayatri mantras from a tape player. Sridhar Maharaja seemed to support the legitimacy of the rtvik system and he even had his own rtivks for a time.

The thing that bothers me is that many of us younger Prabhupada disciples were more or less treated like livestock. We never got to talk to Prabhupada even when he was at that temple. We were kept away from all the darshans and intimate meetings. We were not even allowed to write Prabhupada a letter. We gave up our lives to come and join the movement but when Prabhuapda came around we weren't allowed to meet him or take initiations from him personally. We were "small-timers" and we had to keep our distance because the "big-guns" had all the inside track to Prabhupada. All we could get was the chance to attend his lectures and guru-pujas.

I did hear the maha-mantra from Prabhupada as he was chanting in kirtan. I heard him lecture and I got Prasadam from his hand and his plate. I got the caranamritam from his footbath. I saw him on the Rathayatra cart in San Francisco.
Maybe all that gives some more substance to my so-called initiation.

Other than that, I am little disappointed that some of us didn't get the kind of personal attention and traditional initiation that many of the older disciples got.
I think that each devotee is very precious and should be given the chance to feel that he is really initiated by the guru and not by some deputy from a GBC.
I just kind of feel like livestock in the corral. I feel like I am just a face in the crowd. I just wish that Prabhupada would have treated all his disciples the same and given each one that opportunity to feel personally connected. ISKCON got to be like a WAL-MART of Krishna-bhakti. (You Europeans might not know what a Wal-Mart is.) It was like a franchise operation. The intimacy and the sweetness got lost to a vast warehouse of personel. It was a mass-production assembly line of bhaktas who were churned out cookie-cutter style.

Sometimes I feel a little hurt that I was treated like slag and kept away from Prabhupada. I gave up my life to join the movement and Prabhupada came to LA and was there for two weeks and I was never brought into him and introduced that "here is a young man who has given his life to the movement". No, Tamal and all the big guns kept us away because they had all their serious business to talk about. I feel cheated. I feel ignored. I feel shunned. But, I am supposed to think that I am a disciple of Prabhupada? I really don't know anymore. I am starting to reflect on how all that went down in ISKCON and sometimes I just feel really let-down.

I am hearing this more and more from disciples that were not allowed to penetrate that wall of protection set up around Srila Prabhupada by the "big guns".
My opinion is that they did not allow any newbies to get through out of fear of diluting their own so-called power. What if Prabhupada met them and saw all they had to offer the movement? Right?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja didn't need to physically see or converse with you to accept your heart ;the Guru and disciple relationship is in essence a matter of the heart. To accept one as Guru is to give ones very being to the service of Sri Guru, Mahaprabhu, Sri Radhika and the Vaisnavas. So your question can only really be answered by yourself. Have you given your very being to the service of your Guru? Do you have faith in his ability to nurture you? In your ability to love him? Obviously this is an incremental process but have you given your heart and desire to develop yourself fit to serve Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja? If the answer is yes then there is no question to be answered.

As far as who chanted on your beads… does that really matter? Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja requested these individuals to do this in his presence because of the logistical issue of chanting on every new initiates beads around the entire world while trying to write all of his books, travel to all of these temples and preach to the world. If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja were to chant on every initiates bead, meet with each one and allow each to perform physical service in his immediate presence he would never of had the opportunity to write nearly as many books as he did nor open as many centers. In essence you would be asking him to live much like the Babji’s that you question for “sitting in their huts”. Neither is “right” or “wrong” but both have their limitations in respects to logistically doing what the other is able to do.

The Guru and Disciple relationship is a relationship between two individuals. In approaching a Guru you need to not only have faith in that individual’s ability to develop your heart in such a way that you only yearn to serve Sri Guru, Mahaprabhu, Sri Radhika and the Vaisnavas. You must also have faith that you can fully give yourself to this individual. That means that if there are two different Guru’s to “choose” from you have to take into consideration the “human” side of the individual (i.e. mood, personality and even their ability or inability to allow you to offer close intimate physical service). In some respects you didn’t have that choice. Either did Jagat. Obviously I cannot speak for Jagat but after reading many of his thoughts it seems like when that choice became available to him he decided to make that choice, while giving all respects to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. This is still a choice you can chose to make although I doubt you would ever decide against Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja as your chosen shelter. As much as I may disagree with your mood, philosophical approach and understanding I think it is clear that you do love, or at least want to love, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja with all of your heart. That says a lot; it may not be perfect in all respects but it is nothing to minimize.

My Guru Maharaja also laments on how in the later years access to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was so hard to come by. Even though he was one of his senior most Sanyassa disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja he was, and still is, a rather meek individual and his personality naturally faded to the back in the presence of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja's more charismatic and powerful disciples. My Guruji often speaks of the days when the movement first began and how he often had the opportunity to cook or honor prasadam alone with Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. How he would call him specifically to do a service, to open a new center and type his writings.

Still he sees a valuable reason for how things developed in the later years and appreciates what his godbrothers did in the service to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. I remember one time I was acting as his servant for a week and he was rather sick. I was doing my best to take care of him. He related his appreciation of my service in helping care for him through such bad health. He then related his deep feelings of inadequacy upon seeing his Guru Maharaja during his last days and his inability to stand up and take on the service of physically caring for his Guruji. How he will always lament that he was so stuck with awe and reverence of his dear Guruji that he couldn’t come to the front and physically care for his needs. My GM had his differences with his Godbrothers like Srila Tamal Krishna Maharaja but at the same time he was in awe of TKG’s ability to transcend the heaviness and desperation in those moments to care of their Gurudeva in such an intimate way.

Anyhow, some quick thoughts from your favorite aspiring Vaisnava .

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

One thing that I have to admit is that when I chant my rounds or sing some bhajan I get really uplifted and surcharged with a blissfulness. It is amazing how chanting the maha-mantra even relieves depression. It is probably not right to even say this but I can almost taste some nectar in my consciousness by chanting my rounds and singing some kirtan. Chanting some rounds refreshes my consciousness much like a cold shower refreshes my body. It don't take that much either. By the time I get my first round done I can feel a significant difference. After I get 4 or 6 rounds done I am really feeling good. I don't usually chant more than six rounds a day. Just see how foolish and lazy I am. I guess I have just become too callous to misery. Even though I would probably feel even better if I chanted more rounds, I put down my beads and find some other diversion.

anyway, my point is that I seem to have a "live" mantra that really blesses me with mercy and gives me relief from a lot of mental misery and depression. In that way I feel that I must have been "initiated" into the Holy Name somehow.

I certainly have a very deep appreciation for Srila Prabhupada and I really love to read his books. I'm just a little pieved that after Prabhupada left there started some campaign from other Gaudiya Vaishnavas, especially Narayana Maharaja, to criticize the rtivik system and gayatri by tape etc. You would have thought that Prabhupada would have foreseen this kind of criticism would come after his departure and that some of his disciples would be disturbed by the accusations coming from the old school Gaudiyas. Apparently, he wasn't concerned about this. Though, it is an issue that seems to only get more mysterious as time goes by.

I'm really not seriously considering re-initiation at this point. I don't know how I will feel about it in the future.


However, my next question is about re-initiation after falling away. If one falls away from the service to the spiritual master and breaks the regulative principles, should he be re-initiated? I have heard that this is true for sannyasis, but I am just wondering if it applies to hari-nama or diksha?

I am sure that Prabhupada had some disciples that fell down and came back, but I have never heard of him re-initiatiing them.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Why should you feel strange about stating "almost taste some nectar in my consciousness by chanting my rounds and singing some kirtan"? I guess it was to do with the Western idea of humility but is that statement show a lack of humility? You should feel strange if you can't say that chanting japa or bhajan doesn't make you feel good. That would be a definite sign that you need to search out someone to relight that spark.

As far as what Srila Narayana Maharaja says... you know it is what it is. You don't need to agree with him. I think he says some valid things but I don't agree with him on many fronts. Yet, I appreciate what he has done for many individuals and move on. I don't have the adhikar to truly judge him so I don't; I just go to the flowers that have the nectar I prefer. Again if Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja has to counter every problem individuals would have with his decisions and teachings he wouldn't have been able to do a quarter of what he did.

I am of the opinion that you received the exact same initiation as those that sat in front of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja at 26 Second Avenue and received their beads, names and particular instructions in a one on one basis.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Ksamabuddhi:


I know what Srila Prabhupada did in at least one such case. In 1970, I knew a devotee who had left and had in the meantime taken up some other spiritual path. When he came back to Krishna consciousness in Honolulu, he wrote Prabhupada, asking to be reinitiated. Prabhupada replied that it wasn't necessary, but that he should resume his chanting and other practices. He added that he could rty to make up the missed rounds by chanting extra each day, if he liked.

There is some reference in the Nectar of Devotion that says that Srila Rupa Goswami established that the bhakti path was so beautiful that in the case of one's falling down the only reformation he has to undergo is the taking up if his service and the principles again.
I guess this also supports the idea that re-initiation is not required in the case of a fall down.
However, I think I remember something about Sridhar Maharaja saying that brahmins have to be re-initiated if they fall down. I can't recall exactly the source of this though. Maybe that also refers to regular brahmins of the Vedic order rather than the Vaishnava brahmins. Didn't Sridhar Maharaja re-initiate at least one of Swami Prabhupada's disciples who had fallen away? I don't know for sure but I thought I heard some second hand information about this.
I also rememeber someone telling me that Sridhar Maharaja did say that a sannyasi has to be re-initiated. I think for sure that Govinda Maharaja was re-initiated as sannyasa after he finished his course of family life.
I don't know if Sudhira Maharaja was re-initiated by Govinda Maharaja when he showed up at the Math with his danda and sannyasa vesh after being away for almost ten years. I guess he just showed up dressed in his sannyasa style. Govinda Maharaja was quite shocked. From what I have heard, Sudhira Maharaja did not take re-initiation from Govinda Maharaja. He had already taken re-initiation as sannyasa from Sridhar Maharaja after his ISKCON sannyasa guru Harikesha Maharaja rejected him as a sannyasa disciple. I think Sudhir Maharaja was quite happy with that as it gave him a good reason to take sannyasa from Sridhar Maharaja.

I have a question and a statement.
Is it a standard procedure in Gaudiya Vaishnava culture to perform a fire sacrifice at an initiation?
Next.

Even though the devotees in ISKCON all sat in on the same fire sacrifice for intiation ceremonies they were all privately given diksha mantras by Prabhupada or the ritvik.
So, in that sense there really was no MASS initiation except for the fire sacrifice part.

It is prescribed in Haribhakti Vilasa, but I have only seen it practised in Gaudiya Math and Iskcon. Traditional Gurus do not practise it.

The homa is not a part of diksa in the tradition. Some Gaudiya Math teachers (for example in GVS) say that the homa after diksa is performed because of the brahma-gayatri given; it is in some way installed in the sacrifice, and there are mantras accordingly, too.

As Advaitadas mentioned, the Hari-bhakti-vilasa does mention a homa in its second chapter discussing the topic of diksa, though the rituals therein are extremely elaborate, and are practically not followed by anyone. I am not certain whether that would even be possible. If someone were to go by the book, then the translation of diksha as "religious undertaking" would certainly live up to the practice.



I was more thinking of for example GVS, where often a roomful of people (50+) receive harinama or diksa at once.

This isn't exactly the perfect place for this question, but since Advaita prabhu is in here now maybe he can tell me who is the person who does the translations of Anantadas babaji for the lectures available at raganuga.com? I am talking about the taped lectures presented in the realplayer format.

It is I the most fallen......

Damn, I was afraid you were gonna' say that. (teasin')
Actually, I find your tranlsations quite nice. I like your vibe. I think the oral energy of your speaking is more convincing than the more impersonal forum postings.
I will be listening more when I get a chance.
I appreciate your efforts.
I like you a lot more after hearing your voice.

Thanx Sparky, may I add you to the memberlist of my fanclub then?

What's in it for the members, free monthly photos and a speech in mp3 format? Then sign me up, too!

sure. put me on the list.

"Congratulations, you have the honor of being the first member on the list!"



... or?

Don't be too sure, pal! Anyway, better knock on wood and eat humble pie before I get sucked into the pratishtha of a personality cult..... I may have to ask you to take down my mp3 offerings.

It is not easy but we have to learn to become the srevant of the servant of the servant of the servant................of the servant. This is the best situation. The guru is said to care for his disciples through meditation,touching or thinking(am i right). Srila Prabhupada said over and over again that service to the vani of the guru is better than service to the vapu. We should have faith in the guru otherwise why accept him in the first place? Srila Prabhupada also told us to consider carefully before accepting a guru; why did we not accept this advice?
I am saying this because many of Srila prabhupada disciples on His disappearance started by criticising his movement and now it is him. He did not prevail over anyone(or did he?) to become his disciple. We should accept the responsabilities for our actions(our Karma). Advanced people always accept their misfortune as their Karma. They never try to blame their misfortunes on anyone else. This is proper understanding.
Srila prabhupda opened my eyes than no no one else and I now appreciate the importance of Krishna consciousness and I do not see anything better. This is due to his mercy. Who else ever gave me this opportunity? Even if Srila Prabhupada were to come back and with a sword cut off all my limbs still I will not hate him less disrespect him in anyway. By his mercy only do I know that I am not the body.
I see that many devotees due to bad association(my view) have ceased to address Srila Prabhupada with respect and this hurts me terribly. Srila Prabhupada brought me to the Ganges,Mayapur,Yamuna, Vrindavan etc. With any of these I can attain the highest perfection. For such a personality can any title of respect be too much?

To conclude I will advice that we try to study the law of karma very well and how the great souls apply that in different scriptures, then we will never blame others again for our misfortunes. Srila Prabhupada himself met his Guru only a few times but no one doubts the faith or love he had for his guru. Follow in his footsteps. We should not go somewhere carrying along our program to impose. This is a sure recipe for frustration. The controlling mentality is one of our worst
enemies..

RAAD! I don't get it, What is the point? The thread is about re-initiation or ritvik.

I don't want to play moderator but are not you beside, underneath, outside...... the point? It reminds me "He who carves the buddha never worships HIM"

I am one who believes that we should be under the shelter of a more advance devotee than ourselves, at all times.


Sincerely,

RADDD said:


I think you should be directing those comments to the GBC and the ISKCON guru elite. I don't see how that applies here.
Most devotees who left ISKCON were driven off by a repulsive experience with the powers that be in ISKCON. I know I was. I never left ISKCON voluntarily. I was kicked out of the temple for listening to Sridhar Maharaja tapes in 1980. When it comes down to making the choice, I would take Sridhar Maharaja over the GBC anytime.
Judging others and preaching from a pulpit might work in ISKCON, but otherwise most devotees have had their fill of it.

I may as well cast my ballot, even though typing is somewhat awkward on thus newfangled Fingerworks keyboard for which I paid a ridiculously high price. If I can eventually get used to its weird layout, the payoff is huge in terms of eliminating repetitive stress injuries to these old hands. It has no actual keys - the entire surface is one big touch pad.

Rtvik seems fine in theory, but my opinion is that would have to be an extreme case of there being such a lack of anyone around being capable of fulfilling the role of guru upon the demise of an acharya. As far as reinitiation, the more important question is the solid validity of the original initiation, which might be questionable to begin with. Is it a case of actually getting initiated all over again or one of getting initiated properly after a prior bogus initiation?

I hear you loud and clear about the ISKCON layered bureaucracy back in the old days, Ksama. The pyramid structure of hierarchical organizations serves an important role in military operations, for example. It has also been deployed widely in business enterprises, with varying degrees of success. Does it work quite so well for religious societies? Yes and no.

Notice from the adjective advisory committee:

To avoid conflicts, refer to initiation as "incomplete" instead of "bogus". Bogus has such a harsh sound of blanket dismissal. "Bogus" also implies "counterfeit", "sham" etc. which ascribe rather non-flattering qualities to the individual(s) responsible for the object of description.

One may accomplish something incomplete while the endeavor is still done with earnest intent ("bonafide"), but a bogus outcome is generally not born of an earnest intent.

Oh no! I've been busted by the semantics police! Maybe I'll get time off for good behavior.

If you really want to be liberal about it, why not just say anything goes, as long as someone's heart is in the right place?

Are they hard and fast rules or rules made to be broken? I guess it just boils down to this - there are always consequences, except when there aren't any. What is that they always say? Oh yeah - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wish someone would teach that principle to our plumber.

If a careful choice of words helps us word the same thing without unnecessarily hurting someone, I think it's worth the time taken.

Yes, certainly anything goes, at least some of the way. We are so liberal when it comes to the various religions of the world, how there's something for everyone according to their eligibility, but somehow we sometimes fail to respectfully apply that understanding to our fellow Gaudiyas.

The further apart two religions / religious groups are, the easier the dialogue, since neither are likely to cross deep into the comfort zone of the other. And vice versa.

That depends on whether you see the tradition as a dogma, as following the previous saints as imitation and the current time place and circumstance the same as 500 years ago.
I think the tradition calls for pragmaticism and innovation. Some think that the tradition means that we are supposed to be stuck in a time warp of living in the past. Without innovative adaptation to time, place and circumstance there is no progress, just a stubborn obstinance that kept Vaishnavism bogged down in India for 500 years. Saraswati Goswami broke those shackles to embrace the dignity of all mankind and free Vaishnavism from the bigotry and prejudice that deprived the world of Mahaprabhu's mercy for 500 years. And for all that, all he gets is scorn and ridicule even from those whom he saved.

You know it all too well that the Western tour became possible because the facilities for traveling had become better available in the 1900's.

Otherwise, I suppose that Mahaprabhu, the Gosvamis and the rest of the acaryas were pretty bigoted and prejudiced to not go West.

I think this is the ultimate contradiction in terms - tradition equals innovation?
rupanuga bhakti means - contradicting Rupa? anu = following. ga = going.

If it wasn't for somebody breaching your so-called tradition, neither you or I or anybody else would be in here today pretending to know something about Krishna-bhakti. Your tradition kept Krishna-bhakti confined to India for 500 years. It's a good thing somebody decided it was time to establish a new tradition.
The sad truth is that you owe your spiritual culture and connection to Mahaprabhu to Saraswati Goswami who took the initiative to spread Krishna-bhakti beyond the borders of India through his disciples and books.

Why don't we just close this thread. Rasesh, please pursue matters with this attitude in your own forums. Not here.