turning away from faultfinding - envy in the heart

Dear Vaishnavas!

yesterday i realized that i caused a heavy disturbance by asking my questions about Srila Prabhupada.
actually, i see now that these are silly questions which will lead to nowhere.

i am just a big faultfinder, sitting behind a computer screen, waiting for an opportunity to unleash my frustration.

really, i was deeply sorry for my bad mouth and mind.

then by the Lords mercy i remembered a very nice purport by Srila Ananta das Babaji about this faultfinding-mentality.
it is in the book "Madhurya kadambini" where the different aparadhas are discussed.

after re-reading this portion i saw my stupidity even more clearly.
i pray for the mercy of the assembled Vaishnavas that i can overcome this evil mentality of mine.

here is the purport ( i know it should be in "copy and paste" , but i thought it wiser as an attachment to my apology)

please forgive me again
learning from bad mistakes
Tarunji

Madhurya kadambini

TRANSLATION— The sastras say, "Persons having qualities such as compassion, non-envy, and universal tolerance are described as sadhus since they strictly follow vaisnava-dharma." From this statement one should not think that only blaspheming such sadhus is an offense. Padma Purana says, "Even a sinful person with all bad qualities who lacks proper behaviour, is wicked, fallen, and deceitful is liberated if he takes the shelter of the lotus feet of Govinda." In this verse it is needless to say that if such an ill-behaved person is devoted to the Lord, he is also known as a sadhu according to kaimuttika-nyaya.


Piyusa kana Explanation:

It has been said that blasphemy of the saints is the most powerful obstacle to bhajana. The Bhagavata (11.11.29-31) mentions the characteristics of a sadhu:
"O Uddhava! He is the best among sadhus who has the following qualities: Merciful, not defiant, tolerant, forgiveness, truthfulness, free from envy, doing welfare lo all, free from lust, of controlled senses, mildness, cleanliness, without material possession, indifferent to material activities, eating as much as required, peacefulness, without inebriation, without any agitation, patience, control of the six vices of lust, anger, hunger, thirst and so, humble, respectful, expert in solacing others, friendly, compassionate, and poetic." One may say— "That's a real saint! It's only offensive to blaspheme the sadhus having the above qualities, but not others. Sadhus who get angry on insignificant causes and hardly get pleased with the offender do not have the above qualities, that is obvious! Thus it is not offensive to blaspheme them." The author, however, is saying this consideration is fully incorrect. In Padma Purana, Sanat-kumara says to Narada while describing nama-aparadha—
"O brahmanal Persons lacking proper behaviour, who are fallen, deceitful, full of false ego, absorbed in the bodily conception, drunkards, cruel, irreligious, lowborn, hard-hearted, attached to money, children and wife, and fallen in all respects can also be liberated if diey take shelter of the lotus feet of Govinda." It naturally follows in this verse that these evil-minded persons can also be considered as sadhus if they worship the Lord. The Lord Himself says to Arjuna (Gita 9/30)—
"A person solely devoted to Me, though he may behave badly, must be; considered a sadhu as his efforts are commendable." The author in his Sarartha-Varsini-commentary of this sloka says, "One who worships no other deity than Krsna, performs only bhakti without jnana, karma, and so on, has no desire in his heart other than the desire to attain Krsna, and has no desire to attain sovereignty or any other material enjoyment is known as ananya-bhakta, exclusively devoted. He is a sadhu." With the appearance of ananya-bhakti, one automatically becomes disinterested in desires other than Krsna. If accidentally due to a bad upbringing, duracara, bad behaviour, or even suduracara, very sinful behaviour like violence, theft and adultery, is seen in him, still he must be considered a sadhu. All these bad activities do not contaminate ananya-bhakti. ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvacchantim nigacchati; kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhakta pranasyati (B.G. 9.31) bhakti quickly causes repentance in his heart and makes him saintly, giving him eternal peace. A person faithful in devotion is thus considered a sadhu, though very sinful behaviour may be seen in him. If anger, intolerance, and so on are seen in a person absorbed in devotion,
he is undoubtedly a sadhu, and blaspheming him is an offense. A sadhaka can never find welfare unless he gives up such an offensive attitude.
Mahaprabhu has therefore instructed everyone engaged in bhajana to take the shelter of the holy name with extreme humility so that one may not blaspheme and envy anyone.
"O Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya! Please hear the symptoms of chanting the holy name so that Krsna-prema is awakened. One who thinks himself lower than a blade of grass, is more tolerant than a tree, does not desire his own fame, but gives respect to all is qualified to constantly chant the holy name of Sri Hari. Though exalted, he thinks himself lower than a blade of grass and tolerates in two ways like a tree. A tree when cut down does not resist, nor does it ask anyone for water even if it is drying up. A tree gives whatever possession it has to one who asks for it. It tolerates heat and rain, but still gives shelter to others. A Vaisnava should be prideless though he is exalted and should give respect to all living entities knowing that Krsna is residing in all of them. One who chants the holy name in this manner, attains divine prema for die lotus feet of Krsna." (CC, Antya 20/20-27)
What to speak of a sadhaka devotee, even great powerful personalities cannot escape from vaisnava-aparadha. Caitanya-Bhagavata savs: "Even if someone as strong as Siva, who carries a trident in his hands, blasphemes a Vaisnava, he is quickly finished. The Bhagavata is giving evidence for this. Chanting Krsna's name is the supreme atonement, but the same name finishes the life of a person offending a Vaisnava." Therefore for attaining success in chanting the holy name, one should proceed as follows: "One should not see the faults or become angry at others and should offer obeisances to the feet of all."





i burnt it in my heart!

Jay Radhe!

What happened if such faults are believe exist in a Vaishnava? Srila Rupa Goswami answered that question on BRS Eastern Wave (3.29 and 4.12).

"One may see some apparent imperfection or misconduct in the external behavior of bhaktas who have attained the stage of Bhäva. Even so, it is essential not to be envious of them by attributing faults to them, because they have become completely detached from everything other than Krishna, and therefore they are fully succesful in every respect."

Therefore, criticism is a serious offense. Generally perfom in the kanistha stage of spiritual development. Since the typical activities of a real devotee are to avoid sädhu nindä, one should sincerely feel repentent and cry at the feet of that devotee for mercy and forgiveness. The devotee, who is by nature very merciful, will forgive the offender.

I heard in a class of Srila Ananda das Babaji, that the pure devotee will forgive, but the foot dust of the pure devotee will not, Could someone tell me what is the purificatory process to obtain the mercy of the foot dust?

Haribol!

Radhe!

i honestly didnt mean to offend Srila Prabhupada.
these tough questions (= critizisms) are not born within my mind.
i heard them and they troubled me.

my offense was repeating them and shooting them at Rasesh.
so i wrote Rasesh a letter, asking for forgiveness.

Tarunji

Well, given the current circumstances I personaly can understand the line of questioning. I too wonder about the items you asked and saw no offense in your questioning such things. The items asked about are the reasons why I myself have always kept ISKCON at arms length.

Notice how they are easy to slam Raganuga but deleate and pounce on questions relating to SP. Go figure

garlands,
bbri

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Interesting topic. There is a thin line between studying an individual, or in this case disciplic line, to ensure that one is taking shelter of a line that is both in line from a siddhantic perspective and that one can develop a deep faith with the individuals within a particular line. We have to ask questions and as followers we have to be patient and balanced enough to answer them. It is never an easy balance for either party as the aspiring follower wants to ask the “tough” questions to ensure they are comfortable and can develop faith while the follower wants to defend the ones they love which makes approaching such questions in a detached manner very difficult. The key to both parties is to try to approach each question and answer with a soft heart yet balanced mind.

Unfortunately I am responsible for the latest round of battles. I truly want to state this was not my intention. The reason I started the thread was that as a follower within the Saraswata line for the past 15 years I have become uncomfortable with a particular angle of vision held by many of those within my line. We both hold the same bottom line that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was both an empowered and pure devotee of the Lord. Yet our vision on how we come to this conclusion differs. I feel that his purity was in his ultimate desire to dedicate his mind, heart, words and every breathe to serve his Guru, Mahaprabhu and Sri Radhika. I don’t believe everything he said, especially in regards to issues of social, political, social, and other “worldly” topics are to be written in stone but that his ultimate message and hearts desire was pure and perfect. The other more prevalent angle of vision is that every aspect of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was perfect down to every word and syllable.

This can be a topic of discussion as there is a very distinct difference between the two. However we cannot become so adamant about our viewpoint that we demonize one another.

Even when we look at different disciplic lines we need to be extremely sensitive to one another because ultimately we have all given our lives to trying to serve Guru, Mahaprabhu and Sri Radhika. In my humble opinion at some point we simply need to agree to disagree. Ultimately Mahaprabhu and Sri Radhika will see to it that any sincere seeker of their service is taken care of. We don’t need to “save” anyone; simply speak the truth as we understand it without becoming over attached or aggressive in how we articulate our understandings.

I would like to ask forgiveness to anyone of the Vaisnavas I may have inadvertently offended with my questions. It was not my intent.

In closing if we have questions about one particular angle of vision and individual that is clearly a very difficult question than it isn’t that we can never ask the questions but we need to ask it to individuals who truly are familiar with our way of thinking, our background and most importantly our sincere desire in asking such difficult questions. This has become very clear to me over the last few weeks as I asked the same questions to several devotees that I posed in this group. Those that know me and know my true appreciation and love for Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja took my questions a whole different way then Rasesh did. So maybe it isn’t about the question as much as how we pose them and who we pose them to.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Radhe!

problem is people now see me as THE BIG OFFENDER.
even Madhava is pretty angry.

i have had DEEP appreciation for Srila Prabhupada, but these doubts after hearing so much controversies really troubled me very much.

i never wanted to say that Srila Prabhupada knew about the scandals and did nothing.
i just could not believe anymore that he is a nitya-siddha or a fully perfected soul.

still there is much thankfulness from my part towards him, but also some strange kind of disappointment.

like if you invest more than 10 years in tough seva (cooking and nam-hatta-preaching was tough!) it feels like investing many years in a project which turns out to be as something very different, like something that it never really was.
i know that sounds like business. that is my fallen condition.

anyway, psycho-work to do for me.
more bhajan, more dedication, more humility on my part to overcome the shadows of the past.

BTW, i know many ex-ISKCON-devotees and inbetweener who have the same questions. its only that i spoke out loud.
at the wrong place, wrong time.

dandavats,
Tarunji

Wrong place, that is true. The entire saraswata.net site has been set up by Spunky simply to argue with those who practice raganuga. Is that not the RadhaKunda on his website? He baited everyone from the get go and some took the worm that, in my opinion, should have been left alone. But we all learn right?

One tip off should have been how he runs his forum. He is notorious for being a real jerk on MANY forums and has been thrown out of them all, mine included..yet now he is all "oh please prabhu dont upset the board with this or that post" in a most mannerly fashion..something right there shows possiable multiple personality disorder.

Radhe Radhe!

bbri

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

In my humble opinion you are only as big of an offender as your questions, and the way you posed them, were meant to upset or offend anothers faith. If that wasn't your intention then you don't need to be so upset. You have asked forgiveness from those you offended and as soft hearted Vaisnavas they will forgive you.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

We should be very careful not to regret our devotional service, otherwise it will be lost. No matter what objections some of us may have against Swamiji, our devotional service rendered in his organisation was rendered in good faith to please KRISHNA in the form of this Guru or the other. If we regret it we lose that service, and then we have REALLY wasted all that time. Not if we understand that any service rendered to any Guru is service rendered to Krishna.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Very beautifully put.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I recall reading somewhere in one of Srila Shridhar Maharaj's books about The Divine Side of guru versus the, I forget the term he used, but something to the effect of "Relative Side". Meaning, there is a disctinction between that aspect of guru which is enfused with bhakti shakti from Sri Radha herself and then the side of cultural upbringing, etc. The sisya focuses on the Divine Side and gains her inspiration there.
I also got kicked out of Rasesh's forums for suggesting that IF (and that's a big IF) Srila Swami Maharaj knew about any child molestation/abuse and did not report it to legal authorities I could understand. Being Indian, even today, if something like that goes on in our families, we would rarely report it to police or pursue court case. Our culture is a very shame based and secretive one. Hence, such behaviour. It does not mean we don't care about our kids. It means we would just deal with it in a different way than 21st century Americans. Although, thanks to globalization, these things are beginning to change in India too and you will find in the future more and more abusers taken to court, etc.
But one thing you should all keep in mind is that the respected babaji and goswami vaishnavas are part of the same culture that Srila Swami Maharaj came from and I wouldn't doubt if you probed them on some of the same issues such as womens rights and position in society, they would have very similar ideas. I'm Indian, I know how most conservative and elderly Indians think... and let me tell you ... it is FAR from the egalitarianism of modern western thought.
All the best!

Being inconsiderate and being offender are not the same thing. What you posed were legitimate questions. However, there is a time and place for everything. The time and place for such questions is not in an already volatile environment waiting to explode. The place may have been right, but the time was certainly not.



And no-one may insist that you must think so. Such a thing cannot be proven through anything but direct spiritual insight, and a person making a claim for having such insight generally does not have it.


It is not that it was in vain. Your sincere feeling in the seva will eventually lead you to the fruits of such seva. The consciousness has been cultivated.

This divine side is called vyasti-guru, and it is the guru-tattva we speak of, and the scriptures speak of with verses such as AcAryaM mAM vijJAnIyam etc. The relative side is the bhagavat-bhakta who has been engaged in and purified by sadhana, in whom guru-tattva manifests.

Radhe!

deep in my heart i know that no seva goes in vain.

how otherwise would i have come in contact with the books of Srila Ananta das Babaji, his loving person and most of all with such wonderful devotees ( can you hear me, dear Advaitaji?) here in this forum.

thank you for your kind words.

all glories to you out there.

ouups, we have nice guests, must take care.

good night.

Radheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Tarunji
no more sad