My request of Ksamabuddhi das - a simple request

Dear Ksamabuddhi das,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I was a bit disappointed when I read of your “acceptance” of the whole ritvik doctrine. I never would have gone so far out of my way to try to understand someone’s philosophical thought process, especially in regards to subjects such as Vaisnava apardha and the teachings of the Goswami’s, had I known.

In my humble opinion anyone who believes that their Guru, what to speak of someone as powerful, merciful and giving as Srila Bhaktivedanta Maharaja, could not cultivate or give at least one of their disciples their divine mercy, enabling that individual(s) to be a qualified Guru and continue the parampara, is anything but a disciple with faith and conviction. What to speak of one that goes so far as to believe that because their Guru was so inept in giving divine knowledge and bhakti that their Guru would resort to inventing an entirely new system of parampara..

It is said that the most outspoken defenders of an individual or faith are generally those with the least amount of faith. I hope this is not the fuel for the passion and energy you have shown on this board.

In my humble opinion I believe it would be much more important, what to speak of pleasing to your Guru and Guardians, to develop yourself into a devotee fit to take on your Guru’s mission in parampara. It would require a tremendous amount of faith, discipline and true devotion to do this but isn’t that a more worthy offering to ones Guru and Guardians then jumping from point to point with no desire to actual understand other’s faith as opposed to simply discredit it? Obviously attempting to discredit others with misplaced logic and flash conclusions is much, much easier but will it bring you to the feet of your master? To Mahaprabhu? To the divine service of Sri Radhika?.

Maybe before you continue to participate in this forum you should first figure out how this ritvik “philosophy” fits in line with Raganuga Bhakti? The teachings of the Goswami’s? Maybe even start with the teachings of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Swami BR. Sridhar?

Or better yet invest the same time, passion and energy that you put into questioning others faith/paths/motives/qualifications into a positive and humble path such as coming to the very standard you both promised to your Guru and, most importantly, owe to your Guru and Guardian? Even go a step further and prove the worth of your Guru and the Saraswati’s by becoming the next in the line of parampara?

I don’t mean this post to demean you. You have shown a tremendous amount of passion and energy to get to what you believe. I just think it would be better placed in making yourself to be fit to again sit at the feet of your master and serve the divine couple with him. Allow internet forums and your desire to discuss philosophy be a way to encourage your own desire to become fit, pure and qualified as opposed to trying to illustrate just how unqualified you think others may be. I would suggest reading a very sweet book by Swami BV Puri called In the Heart of Krishna or even your Guardian BR Sridhar Maharajas book Sri Guru and His Grace. These are wonderful books which can help you channel your energy and passion into developing yourself and your heart. I read some of Swami BV Puri’s book every evening before I go to rest in hopes that his words and advice will seep into my heart and mind to develop a true appreciation for all devotees.

Allow this forum and your own Saraswata forum to be a home for those wishing to develop faith and appreciation of the Vaisnavas as opposed to trying to tear one another down.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Radhe!

Dear Rasaraja das, thank you for your words.

you speak from my heart.
this is a forum of raganuga-bhakti and not a forum of constant provocation/gameplaying/arguing for fun.



this constant questioning without any sign of learning attitude from the side of Rasesh and very often without any logical direction really can frustrate one.

if someone is feeling comfortable with his lineage of faith, with his religion, with his approach towards SriSri Radha Govinda, then so be he comfortable.
i am sick of this constant provocation. why not just leave this forum and hammer the famous hardline-thoughts in one´s own forum?

i feel bad when i read the last portion of the thread where Madhavaji admits defeat.
he is such a kind and learned gentle soul, but Rasesh is just ignoring the mercy Madhavaji spills over him.
you have done right, dear Madhava (and again i learned SO MUCH from your humble answers), because the Saraswata -way of interreligious dialogue has been, is and will always be a matter of WINNING a debate and making others feel as losers.
(see what SNM did when he went to Sri Radhakunda to debate and NO ONE CAME!)
so yiipiyeiho, and so be it.

recently i checked all posts from Rasesh and its fascinating.
although Madhavaji told me to easy with him, i cannot just sit peaceful and read all of his rantings, mixed in with the spice of some REALLY nice posts.
sometimes i subjectively feel that in him is a war between more persons.

i can hardly believe how someone cannot realize when enough is enough.
he completely made himself more than ridiculous with his genuine 14 responses



this is the most ridiculous paragraph in this whole forum.
after being educated brilliantly by Madhavaji and others, he still hammers around that their glorious version of raganuga-bhakti after anartha-nivritti is the standard for all time.
even after reading quotes from his predecessors so totally offline from Gaudiya-traditional-thought, he still cannot see the truth.

my God, dear Rasesh, i just wish that you will become happy by following your chosen path.

what strikes me the most is:
with all my crumbling respect,
how can someone whose ritvik-guru was on LSD and later been killed by headchopping proclaim to be a representative of a tradition ?

Dear Madhavaji, forgive me. this is my last post in regards to Rasesh.
may he find peace in frustrating, hurting and provocating others.
from now on i will humbly ignore his rantings and concentrate on being a productive member on this wonderful forum.

Jay Sri Radhe

Tarunji,
after releasing the anger, harvested by starting to read the forum-posts this morning in a joyful spirit, only to be angered by the stubborness of some holy man.

first
now

Personally, I believe there is no point to preaching to faithless persons. Some people, despite one's sincere input in helping them, do not take the help. Better focus on ones own bhajan and help those who want to be helped. With all due respects, I see it as an over-endeavour on some of us to had invested so much time on one individual who is not sincerely inquiring about bhakti. However, that is strictly my opinion.

I dont agree with that Radhapada-ji. Remember that many innocent and sincere people also surf to this site and they will learn a lot from these exchanges. After all, Rasesh lets all the standard mISKCONceptions about raganuga bhakti pass the review and we have dealt with them properly, in accordance with the Gosvamis teachings. Additionally we ourselves also learn skills in debate with these poor folks. Later so many innocent and misled people will benefit, either by reading these threads or by encountering us in a future debate.

As Advaitadasji said, it's not only for the "opponent's" sake that discussions go on. Had it been private correspondence, I would never have gone to such lengths. However, since the topic is open for everyone to see, much beneficial siddhanta has become available.

Yes, you are all correct. I apologize for my short-sighted perspective.

I don't remember making rtvik an issue in this forum? Where did I come in here advocating rtvik? I mentioned it in regards to something Jagat said to me about accepting the "siddha-pranali" innovation that is no where to be found in the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

I guess people will go to any lengths to stir up a debate.

However, I think the attempt to say that an empowered incarnation of Lord Nityananda cannot appoint representatives to initiate on his behalf after his disappearance is a very sad understanding of the authority of Godhead.

When Krishna comes down and does something extraordinary, there will always be the naysaysers and detractors who won't recognize him and just treat him like an ordinary human being. A real guru is "sakshat-hari". Hari has quite a bit of flexibility to do things that don't always fit into our stereotypes and dogmas.

It's not a matter of thinking that Prabhupada couldn't create any disciples qualified to be spiritual masters. However, we need to remember that when he left this world his movement was only about 12 years old and his seniormost disciples had only been devotees for about 10 to 12 years. That is hardly enough time for mlecchas and yavannas to acquire all the experience and maturity needed to be spiritual masters. When Prabhupada left this world his seniormost disciples were only in their thirties and fourties. How is it that a even in the Gaudiya Math none of the senior disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami became gurus until they were much more mature than that. This chaos and madness of the last 26 years or so is enough proof that the "guru system" in ISKCON was a big disaster.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja eventually came to reject the ISKCON guru system himself and started referring to the gurus of ISKCON as rtviks. That was several years after Prabhuapda's departure. When Sridhar Maharaja endorsed and promoted the rtivik system, I was a lot more convinced that it was legitimate and the actual system that Prabhuapda wanted fo ISKCON.

So, when little Rasaraja das and the others on his level try to assualt me for supporting the rtvik doctrine, he and they are actually challenging Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja and not really me, since I did not invent the rtvik system or introduce it into ISKCON. I don't think that little Rasaraja das and others like him are in a position to know better than Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

For the benefit of little Rasaraja das and others on his level I will present Srila Sridhar Maharaja's "DECLARATION OF SPIRITUAL SUCCESSION" that he gave as orders for how his disciplic succession would continue after his departure.



Here he refers to the senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada as rtviks in 1986.


Prabhupada left his body in 1977. Sridhar Maharaja is referring to senior sannyasis of Prabhupada as rtivks in 1986. Do the Math.

Sridhar Maharaja says:


Sridhar Maharaja said : "FROM NOW ON" he will initiate on my behalf as ritivk.

So, in the final analysis, little Rasaraja das is actually challenging Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja - not little ol' Ksamabuddhi.

That goes for the rest of you as well. I did not invent ritvik. I don't even particulary have any preferece for rtvik. It just happens to be what I see as the will of Srila Prabhupada and what was confirmed and also used by Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

I don't care whether anyone else believes it or not. I am not in here preaching rtivik, but I have been dealing with the issue for several years and I can stand my ground on the issue. If you want to argue it further, then I can certainly present lots of other material that I have used over the years to present the rtvik doctrine with. I am not afraid of challengers. However, it is not really me that Rasaraja das and those of his mentaility are challenging - it is Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja both that they are challenging. If they think they are so advanced and experienced that they can correct and challenge these two Saraswata acharyas then that is their own problem and there is not much I can do to help them.

Radhe!



who is this "incarnation"?
where is this incarnation mentioned?





if Srila Prabhupada was really an all-perfected mega-hyper incarnation of Lord Nityananda then his listing of the famous eleven gurus proves to be a very bad decision.
how much of them still act as gurus?



where in the Gaudiya Vaishnava canon is any system like this ritvik-thing mentioned?



yes, we are free to challenge. free will? of course there is a vast difference between challenging a man´s point of view and his being as a person.
we as free souls have EVERY right to challenge all kinds of religious belief-systems.
what is wrong with that? especially when in comparative study one finds great discrepancies in a system which claims its root in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
for fanatics and hardliners every challenge is an attack to their chosen belief-system, showing their actual insecurity. especially belittling the challengers makes this very obvious. (little Rasaraja das) as if material age speaks about the wisdom of the soul?

we little challenging aliens NEVER said anything bad about Srila Prabhupada and for example Sridhar Swami, but to question their siddhantic representation is more than legal.




yes, we are all lost because we dont sail with the right ship, huh?

thank you, but me in no need of that kind of help.

these stalwart devotees did a lot of wonderful tings and every devotee should feel honour for them (at least i do!) but blind following and fanatical adherence is never encouraged by any religious literature.

au contraire, Srila Rupa Goswami in his "Sri Upadeshamrita" warns us about the "fanatical adherence to religious practices".

the empowering of Srila Sridhar Maharaja for his successor is also an invention.
but why should i accept Sridhar Swami´s decision as the STANDARD OF THINGS?
he did it, so be it.

ok, time for an icecold shower.
oh, yes, Srila Prabhupada SAID: "All devotees should take COLD SHOWER!"
as if all human beings have the same categories of doshas.
yes, my girlfriend will surely burn in hell, because she cannot shower cold (toooo less pitta) so she takes hot showers. big thing, huh?

Radheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Syaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam!

Tarunji

Since the ritvik-doctrine has no relevance in the tradition outside ISKCON / Gaudiya Matha, I really can't see why we should have a discussion about it here. It has been discussed elsewhere ad nauseam. If you wish to prolong the discussion, please do so in private. Perhaps at Saraswata.Net or anywhere if you will, but not here. That goes for everyone.