Y.A.S.T. (Yet Another Siddha-pranali Thread) - Split from "Perfection In Guru Tattva"

How many more times we have to tell you?

1. raganuga is a sadhana, parallel to vaidhi (BRS 1.2.5)
2. Who here claims to have nistha or ruci?
3. Who of us do you know so well that you can generally say that we're all bathing in luxury? We have 140 people, many of them from eastern Europe, most of us struggle to get by.
4. Pundarika Vidyanidhi showed all ecstatic symptoms despite bathing in luxury and eating paan.
5. What did Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis teach? raganuga is a sadhana (BRS 1.2.5) lobha and lobha alone is adhikara for raganuga bhakti (BRS 1.2.292) Lobha has gradations, from weak to strong (Raga Vartma Candrika 1.8) Purification and identification with the siddha deha is a gradual process (Madhurya Kadambini, closing chapters)
6. Your very own nitya siddha Bhaktivinod Thakur had 2 wives and 13 kids and don't tell me that they were mind-born, he adopted them or bought them on the market. Yet you praise him as the ultimate raganuga bhakta?

Never mind. Explaining raganuga-bhakti to Ksamabuddhi is like trying to straighten a dog's tail. I think I've been over this three times now. He always comes to the point that he agrees that siddha-pranal iis OK and you don't need to be free from anartha for raganuga-sadhana, and then after one or two days.... BOING.

Radhe!



Dear Rasesh,
i am very sorry for you, truly.

i remember that you posted a similar wording on raganuga.com, where you accused us here with exactly the same points.

what is wrong with:

1) to have a lovely wife;
you seem to have not really much appreciation for your partner, since i would not say such walnut-jokes about my girlfriend.
its wonderful to have a soulmate on your side, going the same path in the same direction. its the consciousness that counts. i dont see her as a "enjoyment-machine".
during ISKCON/GM-years, i digested lots of guilt/fear/forbidden-vibes. too much and ENOUGH. to love your partner means to help her on the spiritual path!

2) a fancy home:
yep, we have a fancy home. but you know who spend the first night in it? Krischna in His deity form. last night we had about nearly 18 guests who admired our new home very much. now, i have two options: to feel proud or to know exactly that the Lord gave it to us out of pure mercy to use it as a haven for likeminded.
we fed them prasadam. one guest brought Srimati Tulasi devi. how nice!
its the consciousness that counts.

3) i need a good car because i drive to my school 70 kilometers every day.

4) i love being a children-teacher and i have much to give. i´m not seeing myself as a kind of children-guru hungry for mundane affection.
its the consciousness that counts.

5) sex-life
i think a balanced sex-life is better for spiritual advancement than suppressing it for weeks and months just to find yourself doing nasty things.
yeah, always the point of "live like the 6 Goswamis..."
first we should come to that stage.
nearly all the far-out preacher-devotees of Sri Caitanya were householders.
all had children. this Gaudiya Math condemnation of sex-life needs psychological therapy!
its the consciousness that counts!

6) daily sadhana
what is your daily sadhana, dear Mr. Rasesh?
i live in a fancy home, get up nearly everyday at 4 am, chant my rounds.
cook for people, invite people.
yes, i serve my girlfriend. why? to advance. how? by serving Vaishnavas. she is more advanced than me!

your accusations are totally misplaced.
Advaita das already DEFEATED you philosophically.

i wish from my heart that you may find a balance between point 1 up to point 6.

all the best
Tarunji

I just have a hard time accepting that the siddha-deha and the ekadasa bhava that one gets in this "SADHANA" is the eternal svarupa of the living entitiy. Madhava has said that his siddha-pranali one gets as his siddha-deha is his eternal svarupa.
Bhaktivinode offers the possibility that one might not feel happy with the siddha-pranali one gets and that he can ask his guru to give him another one perhaps of another rasa. This doesn't appear to me to be an eternal svarupa that the guru gives the disciple for the sadhana of a raganuga sadhana. I could deal with the idea that it is a model to practice with, but I cannot accept that these siddha-dehas being passed out by these babjis are the eternal svarupa of the living enitity. Any guru than can know the eternal svarupa of the living enitity would have to be a form of Godhead. Madhava even said that sadhaka gurus can also assign this ekadasa-bhava and that it would be the eternal svarupa of the living entity. None of this sounds like anything that I could accept or believe.
I think that one's bhava contains his siddha-deha and his ekadasa-bhava. When one attains to bhava all that will be known naturally through revelation and not artificically by the dispensation of a madhyama-adhikari guru.

[Sigh] [yawn] here we go again - copy paste copy paste copy paste ad infinitum -
Madhava, tell me when we're running out of webspace......

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura explains that meditation on the siddha deha is a regular sadhana:

sadhane bhavibe yaha, siddha dehe pabe taha
raga marge ei sei upaya

"Whatever you think of during your sadhana, you will attain in your siddhi-body. Those are the ways of raga marga.(Prema Bhakti Candrika 57)"

sadhane ye dhana cai, siddha dehe taha pai,
pakkapakka matra se vicara

"The treasure I covet during my sadhana I will receive in my siddha body. The only difference between the two is being ripe and raw. (Prema Bhakti Candrika 56)" This means that the difference between the struggling practitioner and the siddha is only in quantity and not in quality. That the siddha deha does not come from out of the blue, but must be formed through constant meditation is also confirmed in Bhagavad Gita 8,6—

yam yam vapi smaran bhavan tyajantyante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhava bhavita

"Whatever one contemplates throughout life is what one attains when one leaves the body."

Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu 1.2.295—

seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi;
tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja lokanusaratah

"A person who desires loving attraction to His beloved deity Sri Krsna in Vraja must serve in allegiance to the people of Vraja, both in the current practitioner's body as well as in the spiritual, mentally conceived body, which is fit for serving the beloved deity." Commentary by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti: "Mental service must be rendered in the spiritual body in allegiance to Sri Radha, Lalita and Rupa Manjari and service in the current physical body must be rendered in allegiance to Vraja-people like Sri Rupa and Sanatana." The claim that the service rendered in the physical body preceeds the service in the spiritual body, a sequential interpretation often found in Iskcon/Gaudiya Math-publicitions, is denied by the Bengali translation of the above sloka in 'Caitanya Caritamrta' [Madhya 22,154-155]:

bahya antara ihara dui to sadhana;
bahya — sadhaka dehe kore sravana kirtana
mane — nija siddha deha koriya bhavana;
ratri dine kore vraje krsnera sevana

"There are two kinds of devotion in practise — external and internal. In the external practitioner's body devotional practices of hearing and chanting Krsna's glories are performed, and internally, in the mentally conceived spiritual body, one renders mental service to Krsna in Vraja day and night."

Radhe!



listen to your challenging voice!

where does anyone proclaim such useless philosophy of a "madhyama-adhikara-guru" artificially giving away x-mas- presents of desired siddha-dehas?

where is this written?who has said this:



yeah, we all sit, wait, practice, desire and ...boooooooooooom, there it comes:
the revelation!

1) i read disrespect to the different gurus of different disciples here
2) i read another "revelation" -excuse for a possible fact of not having a proper siddha-pranali-lineage ( COVER-UP, huh? )

if you say that anyone can believe what he thinks... fine. go ahead. think about your dream of revelation.
maybe you are so fortunate and the Lord by His mercy-faculty will grant it to you.
but not if you continue with such kinds of disrespects.

Tarunji

Your post fits 400 times in one megabyte. You can safely copy and paste it 200 x 400 times = 80000 times. Then I have to arrange for more space. I doubt that it would make any difference even if you repeated it 80000 times though. We've tried the good old Vedic three times, and it seems we are getting nowhere.

I am aware of such instructions. I have heard them before. However, none of the verses you just quoted specifically referred to the siddha-pranali process and most certainly could be explained to express alternative views of attaining siddha-deha.
There is also a more general and broader interpretation of those verses that just as easily support the Saraswata version of siddha-deha accomplishment.
Those verses could just as easily be referring to a more general aspiration in a pariticular rasa and do not specifically refer to the siddha-pranali process.

For example; one could be aspiring to become like a particular gopi or gopa and performing his sadhana with that goal in mind. All the verses above could just as easily support that method as much as it could be used to support the siddha-pranali process. One might be thinking about Rupa or Rasa Manjari as he peforms his sadhana and aspiring to attain their perfection. That form of sadhana is just a substantiated with those verses as anything and due to a lack of specific reference to the siddha-pranali process, this interpretation seems more likely than the other.

The whole idea about guru being this or that adhikari is misconceived to begin with. First of all, the threefold adhikara is given as eligibility for practicing sadhana-bhakti. The three-fold bhagavattva is a different matter. This has been discussed in a separate topic. Moreover, Sri Guru is not a matter of this or that adhikara, Sri Guru is a manifestation of Bhagavan's grace to deliver the conditioned soul. This has also been discussed in several topics.

Radhe!

yeah, great.

everyone can imagine THINGS.

what about the tattva of Sri Guru?

should one NOT get the instructions from one´s dear Gurudeva?
(Bhaktivinod Thakur, Jaiva-dharma ?)



there are millions of more general and broader interpretations of many verses to support the Saraswata-version of any tattva, right?

JIVA-ISSUE

make the shoe fit!

Tarunji

Please supply us with those more general and broader interpretations. Be sure to not explain anything out of context, and refer to the commentaries as well, if available.




siddha-rUpeNa antaz-cintitAbhISTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena || jIva & vizvanAtha

"In the siddha-form means in an internally thought, desired body suitable for His service."

siddha-rUpeNa manaz-cintita-svAbhISTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena || mukunda

"In the siddha-form means in a mentally thought, one's desired body suitable His service."

This certainly refers to a specific siddha-deha to be contemplated upon during sadhana. BRS 1.2.295 describes the stage of sadhana, not the stages of bhava or prema.

Also if you look up the context of the two aforecited verses of Thakur Mahasaya, you'll note that they describe something very specific to be meditated during sadhana. This is particularly evident in the sakhInAM saGginI rUpam verse the author cites.



Pardon me if I missed anything, but the "siddha-pranali process" means to aspire to become like a particular gopi or gopa. Very particular in fact, individual. You must not think of becoming a replica of an already existing parshada.



However, during astakaliya siddha-rupa seva, one cannot imagine of himself being Rupa or Rasa Manjari. The positions are already reserved.

Radhe!

cool said, dear Madhava.

what more need to be said?

this thread is about "Guru-tattva" and not a talk- show where free-thinkers like Rasesh talk about the un-bona-fide-ness of the already proven-to-be-authorized siddha-pranali-process.

best thing is if the Guru can give you sidddha-pranali. then you will know what to meditate on. i have strong faith that the eager jiva-soul will find such a Guru.

Tarunji

How about, "Haribol Prabhu, it's bogus anyway!"

Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada explains raganuga-bhakti as follows:

According to this Saraswata explanation of raganuga-bhakti, when one develops a desire to be like one of the Lord's eternal associates he has attained to raganuga-bhakti. If one perfoms his service with an ambition to be like one of these eternal associates of the Lord, he has attained to raganuga-bhakti. If one performs his sadhana-bhakti with this sort of feeling or mood, then that sadhana becomes raganuga-sadhana.
This concept is very easily supported by the teachings of Mahaprabhu and the six Goswamis. The siddha-pranali concept is an extrapolation from the teachings of the Goswamis and not a direct and obivious explanation. Maybe certain deeper meanings like a siddha-pranali process can also be drawn from the verses above, but such an interpretation goes beyond the obvious to the obscure. I don't see why the broader and more general meaning of those verses has to denied because some more detailed and specific process has been drawn from them.
I think that both concepts can be drawn from the teachings of Srila Rupa Goswami and that the generic meaning does not have to be invalidated because more specific principles have been drawn from them.
Maybe the Saraswata doctrine restricts to a more generic and broad interpretation of raganuga-bhakti than does the siddha-pranali process, but I don't see why it has to be discredited or invalidated because some parivars promote a more specific form of raganuga-sadhana. To me this is the real issue. I think that if the siddha-pranali schools were honestly willing to validate and acknowledge that a more generic and generalized from of raganuga-bhakti can be attributed to the Gaudiya siddhanta, then the rift would practically cease to exist. The rift is all about the siddha-pranali camps claiming monopoly on raganuga-bhakti and accusing the Saraswata camp of having no raganuga-bhakti. I think the Saraswata school would be a lot more respectful and accomodating to the siddha-pranali camps if they were willing to acknowledge that the Saraswata version of raganuga-bhakti is legitimate. However, they are not willingly to acknowledge the Saraswata tradition and it's version of raganuga-bhakti. Therefore, the conflict rages and will continue to rage as long as the siddha-pranali school persists to demean, discredit and invalidate the Saraswata school.

I wonder if anyone has ever denied that a desire to attain feeling similar to the nitya-parsadas in Vraja is the key to entrance into raganuga-sadhana. That much is obvious to everyone.

As this greed evolves and one desires to refine his conception of the desired siddhi, one approaches a guru to inquire about his eternal, specific identity.



You are free to let the conflict rage as much as you desire. However, please do not incite the rage within the premises of these forums.

I am sure you can present an authoritative verse from Srila Rupa Goswami to substantiate this statement. Could you please show that verse and also any such verse that specifically defines the details that such guru will reveal ekadasa-bhava to that disciple?

While you are at it, could you please tell me where in your writings I can find all the specific verses and quotes that substantiate and validate the siddha-pranali process. If you do not have all those quotes and verses gathered in one place could you please do that. I want to see everything you have got that proves and defines the siddha-pranali process. Of course, we are mainly interested in the works of Srila Rupa Goswami, but I would like to see anything you might have from any source.

If you already have all such material compiled in one place, then I would like to know where. If you don't have it all compiled as such, could you please do so for the benefit of the ignorant ones like myself.

I am sure that the verses and quotes used to substantiate the siddha-pranali process are not very numerous and that you have already presented them partially in various places. Your forums are too involved for me to search through all the threads gathering together the bits and pieces. Just concisely compile all the verses that validate and describe the siddha-pranali process specifically, including the relevant verses that might be more general but pointing towards a siddha-pranali conclusion.

I would appreciate that very much.

thank-you sincerely,
Kshamabuddhi

With pleasure. I'll get back to you in a moment. I'll post it as a new thread.

this might also save you some time and effort in the future as other assorted devotees drift into this forum challenging your presentation. This way, all you have to do is tell them to look at that one particular thread and the whole issue of siddha-pranali is dealt with in it's entirety. This process of going over this argument again and again with every web surfer that catches a wave into this forum can be eliminated if one thread deals with the subject and the issue exhaustively. Then when challengers and debaters want to ahve a go at you, you can just refer them to the thread where the whole issue is completely covered and all the issues have been resolved. I am sure that I will be asking for further explanations and possibly challenging certain interpretations and offering alternative possibilities. Then, your responses to every conceivable challenge can be documented for future reference. In the end, I only want the truth. I think the truth has more than one aspect and more than one point of reference.
As I said before, I think the Saraswata school promotes a generic form of raganuga-bhakti that can ultimately award the same result as the siddha-pranali school professes. I am aware that a form of siddha-pranali is part of the Gaudiya tradition as it is also dealt with in the works of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. What I am not so sure of is all the exact qualifications and prerequisites for giving and receiving this siddha-pranali. I am well aware that ekadasa bhava is attained at a certain stage and a certain level. What I am not so sure of is the exact circumstances and situation wherein it is revealed and how it is revealed. I know it is revealed by a sat-guru, but exactly how and when he does so is something I am trying to better understand.

I appreciate the concern. I suppose there are quite a few such FAQ documents I should eventually put together. Anyway, this topic is as good to get started with as any.



Just as there are really no hard and fast rules for giving harinam or diksa, so it is with siddha-pranali. It varies a good deal between different branches of our tradition.

As for how it is revealed to a sad-guru who in turn reveals it to a disciple, I am not going to get into that in a public forum. After all, some topics are best kept confidential.

You may read the compilation here. There would have been more, but in my opinion one verse per point should do the job. Besides, I'm out with a good flue and consequently lazy.

(Sorry if this question has already been answered before)

The main ideal of Rupanugas is manjari-bhava, so we aspire for that. BUT what if our original identity happens to be something else? What if we are originally friends of Krsna, or trees, or whatever? How can I be absolutely sure that my swarupa is a manjari? Did it ever happen that some devotee went for siddha-pranali to a babaji, but the babaji told him: "Sorry, you are a sakha (or tree, parrot etc) in Vraja, I cannot give you manjari-sadhana"?

First of all, it is not only babajis who give siddha pranali, secondly one should have already developed some attraction to a particular associate of Krishna before going after siddha pranali. krishnam smaram janam casya prestham nija samihitam. "One should remember Krishna and an associate of Him of one's own attraction or liking." Such an attraction is the grace of Krishna and His devotees. krsna tad bhakta karunya matra labhaika hetuka. manjari bhava is the staple food of raganuga bhaktas in the Gaudiya Sampradaya. Other relationships can be easily attained within other sampradayas as well. It is recommended to study Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, Raga Vartma Candrika and Madhurya Kadambini to understand the intricacies of entering a relationship with Krishna. Many older threads in the archives of this site are also helpful.

And what if a person has attraction for more than one rasas?

The answer is already included in my previous reply. Please think deeply about this krsnam smaram janam casya prestham nija samihitam. I think you should also beware of mundane sentiments or mental speculation. Lobha will be a spiritual and specific experience, however faint it may be in the beginning. raganuga adhikara is not a playground for sentimentalists or speculators.

A note on the various relationships one may have, it is not that all people have to or will approach a guru in the Gaudiya-tradition. The supreme object of our tradition is very clearly outlined in the writings of our acaryas as manjari-bhava upasana. Therefore it naturally follows that a person who spends time with sadhus of the Gaudiya tradition will develop an affinity for manjari-bhava. Sangat sanjayate kamam.

Can one attain all those other moods in the Gaudiya-sampradaya? Well, if a person does not develop attraction for the moods expressed in the prayers of our acaryas, it really does not make much sense to follow the Gaudiya tradition. It is a good idea to take shelter of a tradition which is specialized in the particular goal one aspires to attain.

Radhe!

well said.
this really sums it up.

if one is not inclined to manjari-bhava-sadhana, then there is no real sense in diving into that topic.
and especially not for "ruffling some feathers".

there are so many ways to approach God.
in raganuga-bhakti, the sadhana is indeed outlined by the granthas of the raganuga-acaryas.

thanks Madhavaji

Tarunji

Is there any such thing as an "original svarupa"?

All the svarupas are beginningless, hence original. I believe the question you're after is whether the jiva is eternally connected with a particular svarupa.

And the answer is that this question belongs in the philosophical category of "predestination." Predestination is of necessity a circular argument. The general consensus of Hinduism seems to be that in eternity, everything is predestined. This does not however eliminate the minute free will of the living entity who must act as though things were not predestined, but incumbent on his appropriate choice of action at every step.

Similarly, your siddha form is the one you will end up with. Your initiation and siddha pranali may be a false start, or it may be the door to eternity opening up to you. It depends on what has been predestined for you. You'll find out what it was aftwards, not before.

It was actually a poor attempt at sarcasm.