Vaishnavis and gopi-bhava - On male and female bodies

If the ultimate goal in the Gaudiya Vaisnava lineage is to become a heavenly female, a gopi in Goloka, why then are there more leading devotees who take a male body on earth, than those who take a female? It would appear that it would be easier to have a female body to get into the mode of a gopi.

Gopi-bhava doesn't arise from the material psyche, it arises from grace which awakens a deep yearning within the heart.

As far as I know, compared to an average Hindu tradition, women hold considerably more significant positions in the Gaudiya tradition. My rough estimate, based in statistics from the lineages I am acquainted with, is that around a third of the tradition's gurus are ladies.

As for accepting a male or a female body, I don't know about the others here, but at least I can't recall deliberately choosing one or the other!

Briefly--An ideal may not be realized in the real world to the extent that we would like. This does not mean that it is not something that we should strive for.

I personally would love to get a feminine perspective on all our rantings, but it seems that we are applying our usual "Martian" attitudes to the "feminine." This very fact underscores the very real difference between the sexes. There are a few very strong feminine Vaishnavis coming out of the west, but the realms of the masculine and the feminine are still broadly distinct, separated into the "inner" and "outer" worlds.

Though we are madly discussing away about the feminine ideal, we are in some way only licking the outside of the bottle, trapped in our masculinity, as it were.

Well, that's nice.
I don't know of any Vaisnava guru in a female body. Does anyone here have initiation from one? Maybe in India.

Krishna explains in the Bhagavad Gita that whatever we think of, (whatever state of consciousness) we have at death, will determine our next birth. There is also an example of that in Srimad Bhagavatam, about Bharata Maharaja who became a deer.

So from that we can assume that the devotees who are born in a male body, actually desired to take birth in such a body. Which comes back to my question, why someone who aspire to be a gopi would like a male body?

On the path of self-realisation, it might be important to have our desires very clear for us, since on the spiritual platform, desires is the only thing that matters. To take a gopi form, the requirement is to have a very steady singlepointed desire to have that form and actually to have acquired that form already before leaving this body. It would seem that a Vaisnavi possibly would have an easier time to get into the feminine mode.

Nope, none of us here has.

You may want to read the "Female Diksa-guru" thread.

Some form or karma comes into play, perhaps? Either prarabdha or sanchita? Perhaps someone who practised raganuga-sadhana in a previous life never really got off the platform of "you are not the body" ion the first place?

Why does someone who previously lived in India becomes reincarnated in America? There may be very subtle or causal karmic factors involved. I would think that firm and concentrated practice of raganuga-sadhana would destroy all these sorts of karmic connections.


Unless they were attracted to sakhya-bhava and needed to visualize themselves as cowherd boys?

If that be so then why are the majority of sadhana siddhas who have attained gopi prema within our Gaudiya history male? I have heard that men have a greater ability to discriminate between matter and spirit. Based on these two points one could come to the opposite conclusion that it would appear to be easier to have a male body to get into the mode of a gopi.

The karma of a Vaishnava is at the hands of Bhagavan, and He molds it as He sees fit. In the Indian society, the males have had a prominent role as the leaders of the societies for countless centuries; therefore, as Bhagavan desires to bless the world and let its residents follow the path of the mahajanas, He places a mahatma in a male body.

Interesting. Come to think of it, none of the mahajan's are female? I can hear the ladies now; "you devotee men are all male chauvanists!."

Why aren't their any women in the list of mahajan's?

Actually, to become a gopi you can only become through the mercy of Radharani. But She will never make you a female, unless you already are one. Our spiritual bodies are not something we are assigned, like it can be with the material body, but something we have to create ourselves. We have to make ourselves have the proper mood of a gopi, before we can receive that blessing. Radha or Krishna will NEVER change our spiritual bodies, make us into something. We have to do that part ourselves.

When we have come into the mode of a female of Goloka, and have a deep yearning to become a servant of Radharani, and actually want nothing else, we might be allowed into the intimate association of Radha-Krishna.

The best and easiest way to become a servant of Radharani, is to start to serve her already in our material body. She is always looking for servants, since there is currently a big lack of persons wanting to serve her here, and it is quite easy to get that mercy. Then it is just a matter to stick with Her service and never deviate from it.

They are there, they are just not that prominent that's all. I think the most famous ones have been Jahnava Thakurani as well as the daughters of Srinivasa Acharya.

It's my understanding that females who have got diksa usually give diksa to other females either within or without their own families. Is this correct?

You do not serve Radharani in a material body. You serve Her in an antaz-cintitAbhISta-siddha-deha. That is where your expression of gopi-bhava will be, not in a body made of flesh and stool, whether it be male or female.

Mostly within their own families, not only to other females though. To sons and daughters in law mostly.

What about that condition you referred to when the physical body becomes spiritualized in devotional service? Can one serve Radha in the physical body at that point?
Also, are not all the living entities in Vrajadham serving Radharani? Are not the plants, animals, land and everyone, including the sakhas of Krishna also in a mood of service to Radharani? Can anyone really enter Vrajadham without a mood of Radha-dasyam? Is anyone in Vrajadhama really apathetic to Radharani?
Why does the gender of the physical body either way affect one's ability to serve Radharani in this world?
Are you saying that it is impossible to render any service to Radharani in this world?
Here again, we are confronting the proposal that raganuga bhakti is restricted to the internal practice of asta-kaliya-lila smaranam in the siddha-deha. I have heard Jagat express differences with that viewpoint.

Madhavaji, is that your actual position that raganuga bhakti is exclusively the process of lila-smaranam in siddha deha?

Isn't a devotee supposed to see his guru as the delegation of Srimati Radharani? If so, isn't service to the spiritual master ultimately service to Srimati Radharani?

(these are the issues I want to debate and discuss at saraswata.net forums and philosophy section)
(I don't claim to have all the answers, obviously, I don't)

You can serve Radharani in her expansions already here and now. You don't need to be concerned to come to the highest platform before starting service. She is reciprocating accordingly on whatever level you are. By serving Her according to your capacity, you will very quickly advance in consciousness and ultimately reach the platform where you can serve her directly in Her pastimes in Goloka.
Otherwise, if it would not possible to serve Radharani, unless you are on that platform you mention, and every sadhana and also raganuga would just be sahajiya, trying to monkey-jump to a spiritual platform without ever succeeding.

The material body is the expression of the soul. When materially conditioned it is our only means of action. So we have to perform seva in it. But when we advance in spiritual consciousness, and our svarup body becomes active, we can do service on that level too. Ultimately we discard our material body, only acting on the spiritual platform.

The service in siddha-deha is a part of sadhana.

Whoever takes up the path of sadhana will serve Her in siddha-deha, and therefore neither male nore female sadhakas are at a disadvantage because of their gender.

No, of course one can also serve Radharani in this world, though sravana, kirtana, arcana and so forth. The point I have been making both in this thread and the "Sari and Bangles" thread is that it doesn't much good to you if you are in a female body, or if you dress your male body in a sari, and so forth. That will not help you serve Radharani one iota.



No, sravana, kirtana, arcana and so forth are also aspects of raganuga-sadhana. However, direct, personal service to Radha is rendered in siddha-deha. That's why it is said that siddha-deha seva is rendered in antas-cintita (internally contemplated) abhista (desired) saksat-seva-upayogi (suitable for direct service) siddha-deha (siddha-form). From that it is evident that other forms are not eligible for saksat-seva in Vraja-dhama.

By the way, Prisni, are you the same Prisni who once lived in Sweden, at Korsnes Gard or Almvik? If that is so, then I can relate to your emphasis on female appearance much better.