ISKCON Pundits? - Anybody Out There?

Are there any really good Sanskrit scholars that are like ISKCON devotees?

I know that Kusakrata has done quite a bit of translation and I have some of his books.

Who are the best pundits in ISKCON or Gaudiya Math?

If somebody wanted some good translations in the Saraswata camp, who would it be?

Didn't Hridayananda das Goswami become a Sanskrit scholar?

Whatever happened to Pradyumna?

Jagat might know ?

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I know that Pradyumna lives in NYC. When my wife and I ran the temple at 26 Second Avenue (Bhaktiovedanta Swami Maharaja's first temple) he would give sanskrit classes and visit on different occasions. You could contact Dayananda das at 26 Second Avenue and he can probably connect the two of you. The number at 26 Second Avenue is 212-420-1130.

As far as Hridayananda Maharaja he lives in the LA area. The last time I was in LA on business I visited the Govinda's and temple and saw a flyer stating that he gives classes at the ISKCON Temple every month.

Kusakrata is also still around but i have heard that he is suffering with Cancer and not doing very well.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,

I have friends who see him in New York sometimes and he came to my house a year or two back. He is great fun. Not translating anything these days AFAIK.



Met him in Vrindaban a few years back and took his Sanskrit class also. He's a sweet devotee, eccentric, and a surprisingly good teacher--mainly because he was so attentive to students, e.g. someone would come in late and he'd start the class over. I have trouble with his English verses (who is the..., who is the, who is the...) so I'd imagine the Sanskrit is not quite...digested? I also get the impression that he only looks at something once and moves on. No apparent editing or idea of adhering to any particular standard. (See also Jagat's recent post comparing the different versions of those Bhaktivinode books). Reportedly has cancer now.

Here are others that I have come across:

Gopiparanadhana: I don't know his reputation as far as other Sanskritists go but my impression is that he will generally present the "Prabhupada line" and is not flashy or wide-roaming in terms of Gaudiya texts. But I believe he is also a more serious writer--he's not putting the books out to capitalize on "the market." He is incredibly humble in demeanor so it's hard for me to know the depth of his scholarship but he seemed to be well grounded in Vedic and Upanishadic texts. With his BBT backing, he is probably the only major player. Gave two of the best Bhagavatam classes I've ever heard (one was a description of Sukadeva; the other, an exposition on "sadhur eva" that bought joy to the heart). I believe he has Sanskrit students at their asrama in Govardhana.

Navadwipa: don't recall him doing anything in ISKCON (where he joined) but worked on some of Narayana Maharaja's books, was also influenced by the Haridas Sastri camp (via Satya Narayana, the Vrindavana gurukula Sanskrit teacher) but I think he has left Gaudiya Vaisnavism now.

Yadu: put together Harinama Vyakaranamrta for use in the Vrindavana gurukula. Not sure what he does now.

Harivenu?: put together a book on learning Sanskrit

Bhumipati/Pundarika

Sarvabhavana

Rasabihari Lal and sons

Other devotees living in India putting out books of various quality in dribs and drabs



Jagat. Or asking nicely, verse-by-verse at raganuga.com.

Actually, it's kinda criminal, isn't it? I guess the institution never thought to develop (or keep) Sanskritists. Irks me now when I have to try and second-guess whether the verse actually says what is presented.

Sanskrit knowledge does not guarantee proper understanding. The mayavadis also know Sanskrit. It takes a Sat Guru....

And on the other hand, a lack of Sanskrit knowledge also doesn't guarantee proper translation! Even if one has a sad-guru...

With a sat guru one needs no translation at all.
Mind you, I do feel that illiterate devotees, even if they have a Sat Guru, have a handicap.
In most cases I see devotees having no Sat Guru and no Sanskrit knowledge either.
How about knowing Sanskrit and having a Sat Guru?

Pradyumna works for two different Japanese foundations and sometimes travels to Japan. He slept on our living room couch on two separate visits to the windy city when he was here for conventions. Haven't heard from him for over two years now.

Kusa was working translating Gopal Campu last I heard. Anyone have any more details on his prognosis? What type of cancer is it?

The other former members of the BBT Sanskrit Department:

Nitai: Translating a bunch of different things, retired from teaching a couple years ago.
Sukavak: Has his own temple in California and nine children.
Duryodhana Guru: Was writing for television but is now a professional astrologer with clients in Australia.
Ramesta: Whereabouts unknown.
Jagannatha: Deceased
Gopavrindesh: Whereabouts unknown
Jai Sacinandan: Living in Tucson
Yours truly: Only translating some Bengali works right now - the Sanskrit skills are kind of rusty at this point.

There will be plenty of sad gurus around if I reveal that I found the secret stash of Amar Chitra Katha's behind the GBC meeting room in Mayapura!

Amar Chitra Katha - now there's a thing ... *sigh*

Ramdasji, Kusakratha has throat cancer which is quite advanced and there is no medical hope for him. There were a couple of articles on the CHAKRA site about it, he has gone to live in Vraja-dhama so as to pass away peacefully.

That is sad news indeed. He has always been a good friend, and he helped me with learning the fundamentals of Sanskrit grammar once upon a time.

There is no denying that Kushakratha did tremendous service. We should not forget Dasaratha Suta's contribution. His natural attraction for rasika literature has opened up this area for many devotees. These two men have been very prolific in their work.

Hridayananda Goswami is, I believe, concentrating on the Mahabharata these days, but I have no details. I think that in terms of actual mastery of Sanskrit, he and Gopipranadhana are probably the tops right now in Iskcon amongst those in Western bodies. Hridayananda has a number of disciples who have studied Sanskrit. Of those, Kunti Devi, who last I heard was doing a PhD at Berkeley, is most worthy of mention.

There are a number of others with varying degrees of knowledge. Most of the Iskcon (or ex-Iskcon) scholars presently working in academia--Garuda, Santosh, Advaita Prabhu, etc., are all competent.

An up-and-coming bright light in Iskcon academic circles is Ravi Gupta (http://www.ocvhs.com/faculty/students.html) who is doing his PhD at Oxford at a very young age. He may even be finished now.

I should add another very good Sanskritist out there coming out of Iskcon ranks is Ekkehard Lorenz--formerly Ekanath (HKS) of the European BBT. His brilliant article on the sources of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's commentaries is in a forthcoming book edited by Edwin Bryant, to which a number of devotees have contributed.

There are many others, so the future is not altogether unpromising.

I would like to say that for myself, Krishna consciousness and a knowledge of Sanskrit and Bengali go hand in hand.

From the time I first heard Srila Prabhupada passionately sing the Sikshastakam on a scratchy recording back in 1970, I have loved Sanskrit. It has been inextricably intertwined with any Krishna consciousness that I possess. Learning the language (it and Bengali) has probably been the deepest samskara (no accident that this word comes etymologically from the same place as "samskRita") that connects me to this movement.

I am in something of a permanent state of mild surprise that so few other devotees share this with me. This wonderment has from time to time been served with an unhealthy dollop of self-esteem, I shall not hesitate to admit.

Even so, I have to say this: knowledge of Sanskrit has a double-edged benefit, which perhaps frightens off the casual devotee: though it may add to the joys of the mystery, it can also contribute to its demystifycation. You may read Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson's interesting memoir "My Father's Guru" on pages 155-161 for an insight into this.

Perhaps what Jagatji means to say is that one can fully appreciate the texts of the acharyas when one knows the language. This is true even in material affairs; to fully appreciate a classic opera one might need to know Italian, otherwise all one will hear is a load of screaming, crying and wailing.

The texts of the acharyas employ a lot of puns. Take Visvanatha's famous Krsna-bhavanamrta for example. I have an extremely primitive English edition of it that used to be available online. This particular text makes use of several puns, the nuances of which just cannot be communicated in the English language. The English edition which I have translates the text verbatim and includes a possible pun in brackets. It's quite annoying to read, but amusing nevertheless when one is prepared to overlook the slapdash translation and appreciate the joy of the text itself.

It's not a very easy job to translate rasika texts into one language like English, since rasa by it's nature is full of ever-new tastes.

A lot of people often ask me about this text that used to be online. It's no longer online because the webmaster took it down.

However, I've found a way: http://web.archive.org/web/19980121090028/...tfs/kbmindx.htm

Enjoy it if you can understand it.

Iskcon is not within the scope of this forum's preoccupations. There are plenty of places to discuss Iskcon's problems. This is not one of them.

Iskcon's problems may be relevant to other discussions, but Iskcon will seek and find its own solutions without our help. We wish them well.

As far as Sanskrit is concerned, I said nothing of the sort. I said that for me, learning Sanskrit and Bengali have been an indispensible part of my culture of Krishna consciousness and I could not for myself conceive of Krishna consciousness without it. I did not say one could not become Krishna conscious without Sanskrit; obviously, that is nonsense.

Here's one example in Visvanatha's KBM of a total mess-up in translation when it comes to a pun. Near to the end of the 2nd Chapter, Radharani is lamenting about being bereft of Krishna's company. She says that Her ears, eyes, and tongue are afflicted with constant longing, and She condemns them because they do not allow Her to "drink" a drop of the nectar of Krishna's voice, lips or form.

Now here comes the pun.

As translated by a proper translator who knows the text (Haricarana das), Lalita-devi replies to Radharani thus: "Radha! Last night, Your union with Krsna caused You to study the nirveda-paddhati. Now, in separation from Him, You recite it again by cursing Yourself. Being with Acyuta caused You to taste the sweetness of His words, lips and form, but Your separation now tortures You like a deadly poison."

Well this is all fine and dandy, but just what is the nirveda-paddhati? Aha! Well if you knew Sanskrit as well as having a good knowledge of Sanskrit texts, you'd know!

In any case, did you understand what Lalita-devi was saying according to the nice flow of the text? Contrast that with the English haphazard translation:

"Lalita said, "O naive girl! Today the yoga of nocturnal union with Krishna recited the nirveda almanac (nirveda refers to impious acts , like adultery, that are forbidden by the Vedas) to You. Now, Your separation is also reciting the nirveda almanac (here, nirveda means lamentation) to You."

See what I mean? It's rather annoying interrupting your reading of every sentence just to figure out the subtleties of what is being said. This is why knowledge of Sanskrit is important, perhaps, and such a knowledge of Sanskrit will make it easier to have a readable translation.

Er.. seems like while I've been yakking about Sanskrit everyone has been having a punch-up. What can I say?

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Just wanted to note that i am ending my responses to KB. Hopefully he will get it through his head that this site is not about ISKCON nor Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. It is about looking at our philosophy from a particular angle. Maybe there will be a need to examine the ISKCON/GM viewpoint but institutional issues belong on other websites.

Im going to go eat some pizza with veggie pepperoni and sausage.

Aspiring to be a servant of the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Let's try to keep down that tone to a more moderate level. I am again getting complaints, and need to start deleting posts if it doesn't change. It was very mellow a few days back, I wonder if I was dreaming.

HENCEFORTH, THIS KIND OF EXCHANGE WILL BE DELETED AS SOON AS IT IS NOTICED.

This Mata has opened a temple in southern Illinois and has put all the Prabhupada artifacts that she has on display in a museum type atmosphere! She plans to obtain as much as possible and she also takes alot of the dsiplay on the road so that everyone interested can host her at their home or temple and see and touch these wonderful artifacts!

YS

First off "Sorry"..sheesh!

Second the whole "been drinking" thing is an inside JOKE between Ksamabuddhi and myself so calm down!

I cant speak for Ksamabuddhi but their was no malicious intent on my part!

You guys need to get past the "Ms. Sensitive" stage and realize that not everyone is as thin-skinned. Some folks can have discussions that may "seem" out of line but are actually a bit affectionate and playfull!

YS

You are free to make all the inside jokes you like with your buddies in Personal Messages. This is a public board and is not meant for these kinds of exchanges.

It is not about anyone's personal sensitivity or your malicious intent. It is about decorum and keeping a certain level of dignity and respect for the principle of Raganuga bhakti.

Please keep your private exchanges private and use the "quote" function sparingly. Thank you.

Thats fine! BUT...you better make sure this kind of "moderation" is across the board! I have been visiting this forum (with very few posts) since YOU invited me, and I have seen this type of discussion several times. Just make sure this type of "moderation" is not being done out of prejudice.

Thank you,

YS

It is hard to be completely consistent. After all, we are human. However, try to apply the highest standards to yourself and if you think anyone else is not, please report the post. There is a "report this post" button on the screen that is easily clicked on.

(1) Before you start raising red herrings, go and see exactly what I was objecting to on this thread.

(2) For the last time, the purpose of this forum is to discuss Raganuga bhakti. Though this may result in discussion of aspects of the Gaudiya Math, its offshoots, its acharyas, and its doctrines, this is not a site dedicated to the Gaudiya Math, its offshoots and acharyas, and may even be critical of them. That is a risk anyone who comes here will have to take.

Nevertheless, we try to maintain the fundamentals of Vaishnava etiquette. We offer respect to everyone who chants the Holy Name even once, what to speak of those who have spread the name of Lord Chaitanya throughout the world.

If you have a specific complaint, then please use the "report post" function.

KB, Jagat made a post earlier in which he used "I/me/myself" something like 10 times in referring to his own position on Sanskrit. From that, you developed a rabid argument about Sanskrit. By your response, it's clear to me that you either have trouble reading what is actually said, you have an ax to grind, or you need to just speak sometimes in order to prove your own existence. In any case, it is not respectful to screw meanings out of people's words, develop straw men (or by now, armies) and otherwise spew forth on any and all topics without investing the time and attention to understand them. My mother stuck a poster on the back of the toilet door when we were children (ah, pragmatic Western philosophy!) entitled "Signs of a Bad Listener." One of them was, "He thinks of his reply while you are still speaking." That is how you appear to me. In your wholesale and prolific posting here, it seems to me that you are also more often than not responding to ghosts and demons that do not exist. And where they do exist, you don't even know them when you see them due to your impatience and vacillatory emotional state. Honestly, you come across as somewhat manic.

When the members of this forum--almost cent-per-cent from what I recall--wanted you to stick to the 14 points, it was for your own good. Until you develop the patience, honesty, self-respect and humility to clearly take responsibility for your own thoughts and actions, it seems like a disservice to let you post here, IMO. Your posts need moderation, because you seem unable to moderate yourself.

Well, at least you should give me credit for keeping my "objectionable" posts in the "miscellaneous" section of the forum. Did I enter your philosophy section and make politics? Did I enter your "question and answer" forum and make poltitics? No, I did not. I think that the "miscellaneous forum" should be a little flexible for the edgey stuff that might be a little controversial.

I used hear whiners on Istagosthi all the time coming into the open forums and complaining about what they heard. There was a clear warning on that forum that there might be objectionable things in there, yet the whiners would come in there and read it and then whine about it.
I used to compare it with something like a Christian entering a brothel and then being offended by what they saw.
Nobody has to read any thread. If they don't like a thread then they can just avoid it. Nobody is forcing them to read anything.

I think sometimes I say things a little more overtly and get criticized for saying the same thing that is covertly spoken in a intellectuall way. Maybe I speak openly and honestly about things that are dealt with in a stealth mode by the so-called scholars. Maybe my soapbox presentation is a little less appealing to the eccentric intellectuals who conceal themselves in scholarship, but if you look close enough you will find them saying the same thing in their own little manner.

This point is entirely off the mark. The entire Raganuga forum is about discussing the ultimate goals of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's movement without sinking into pettiness and squabbling.

Think of it as a church or a library. When you come in, you agree to respect the rules.

Indeed, nobody has to read any thread, but the idea is that everybody would like to read every thread. If you wouldn't like to have everybody read it, then it doesn't belong in these forums.

Here's a good guideline: "If you wouldn't show it to your guru and to your eight year old daughter, then don't post it here."

I just saw your comment here after deleting a few of KB's posts (my apologies to Rasaraja for deleting one of his as well, which was a response that quoted one of KB's comments). I see no need to tolerate his outbursts that are starting to get out of control.

Jagat may invite you for a meal with the prime minister of Canada twenty times over if he wishes, but that doesn't mean you needn't observe the proper protocol during the meeting.

I understand that you do have a need to vent your fumes on occasion, and to be honest, I was surprised at the degree to which you managed to surpress it. Istagosthi seems to have been the place of choice for the z rated threads, but they are still amidst their "season of pleasanties", so that's out of question too.

Perhaps it's indeed best if you set up your own forums and vent the fumes there whenever necessary. You are welcome to pop in for a philosophical thought or two whenever you're in the mood. I think you know the mood the forums here are generally in.

In closing, I appreciate a departure from amidst a controversy without burning the bridges behind you. There's a bit smoke in the air, admittedly, but anyway.

Dear Kshamabuddhi,

To be honest, I am glad you came here and shared a little with us. No, of course I did not think you would become a different person, but as Madhava says, we were quite pleased with your general attempt to behave. So I would like to thank you for that.

I invited you to come here to discuss raganuga bhakti rather than discuss it on Istagosthi. Why? Because I felt the subject deserved to be discussed in an atmosphere where it would be treated with dignity and respect. This is as it should be, for even the line of Saraswati Thakur holds the service to the Divine Couple to be the ultimate goal of spiritual life and one that should therefore be held in the deepest reverence. I could not envision such an atmosphere developing on Istagosthi, where the most important player (Darwin) has an extremely shallow devotional samskara.

Those who have service to the Divine Couple as the goal of their spiritual lives, even if they be deficient in all the ways that human beings can be, still deserve our respect. I think that on the whole, your presence here has benefitted you in more ways than one and I also wish to say that you are always welcome here as long as you honor the forum, or at least recognize the sanctity that it has for us.

Jaya Radhe !

Jagat

Getting back to Sanskrit and Bengali. Both Bhaktivedanta Swami and Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati seem to have felt that learning Bengali to read Chaitanya Charitamrita was important. I just took a quick look through Folio and saw that only once did he advise against learning Indian languages, to about ten times for. In one place, it is Tamal and Rameswar who seems to be arguing that studying Sanskrit (or painting pictures) takes people away from distributing books, which really makes people Krishna conscious. (760607rc.may)

I just translated the following from Bhakti Promoda Puri:

Krishna spoke in the language of Braj, while Mahaprabhu spoke in Bengali. Bengali is derived entirely from Sanskrit. Sanskrit is India’s original language, just as Greek and Latin are original languages of Europe. Bengali and Hindi were born out of Sanskrit, as were so many other Indian languages. There are some exceptions, like Tamil and Telugu, whose Sanskrit origins are not as easy to trace. Even so, those who know etymology say that they can discern the Sanskrit derivations of various words. But you should try to learn at least two languages—Krishna’s language, Braja Bhasha, and Mahaprabhu's language, Bengali.

I don't mean to start another ISKCON prattle, but I have to note that I believe much of the "ISKCON think" originates not from Bhaktivedanta Swami, but from his disciples. I've often found it disturbing, reading those conversations in the Vedabase, how Swamiji's senior disciples often fish out answers and push their points in his presence, taking a small lead from him and continuing, "Yes Prabhupada, it is really like [ - fill in your agenda here -]. I'd be curious to know how the movement would've been, had it not been so strongly molded by some of his Western followers.

I was in Mayapur when that conversation took place, though I was not actually in Prabhupada's presence. I seem to recall that at around that time, there was a Western devotee with only limited Iskcon experience who wanted to spend all his time studying instead of doing service. Bhavananda and others had a fit and went complaining to Prabhupada, who surprised them all by saying that reading his books was service.