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Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

What old practices to give up in raganuga-bhakti? - Modifications to GM sadacara, sadhana?



vamsidas - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 05:07:41 +0530
Many on this board were "trained up" by the Gaudiya Matha and/or ISKCON. Perhaps as a result of the special demands of these groups' unprecedented success in worldwide preaching, some practices were taught that are outside the bounds of "what's acceptable" in the orthodox parivaras. For example, devotees were taught to use the term "Prabhu" far more broadly than most orthodox practitioners find appropriate. A devotee wishing to show appropriate respect to orthodox Gaudiya Vaishnavas thus needs to learn a slightly different vocabulary of respect.

Surely there are many other such details. And so my question to the practitioners of orthodox Gaudiya Vaishnavism: what practices did you learn in ISKCON and/or GM that should be abandoned or modified by one aspiring for initiation into one of the orthodox parivars?

• Should devotees stop chanting brahma-gayatri, if they have received that mantra?
• Should devotees stop chanting other gayatris and wait until these are given by a guru from an orthodox parivar?
• What dietary modifications are advisable? Is the GM standard (e.g. no carrots) similar to the orthodox? Or is the ISKCON standard sufficient? Or is either standard "too strict" or "not strict enough" in some respects?
• Are sikhas required/optional/disapproved of for unmarried men? For married men?
• Should one apply tilaka before initiation into one of the parivars? Is there an appropriate "generic" tilaka-svarupa for one who does not yet know the parivar into which he will be initiated? Should the same mantras be used that were learned in GM and/or ISKCON?
• When chanting the maha-mantra, is it desirable/acceptable/unacceptable to chant any particular mantra between rounds?
• What other points should a devotee be aware of, if trying to "re-learn" his way around Gaudiya Vaishnavism after being trained up in ISKCON and/or GM?

I apologize for asking such questions that are at once awfully basic yet awfully detailed. but I could find no adequate summary of such points elsewhere on the website (maybe I'm just not looking in the right place?), so I thought I would ask here. What practices has an ISKCON/GM devotee learned that either CAN or SHOULD or MUST be given up in order to progress nicely toward adopting the practices of an orthodox parivar? Do the answers vary too widely between specific lineages, such that a "generic" response is not feasible? If so, it might be educational to learn some of the specifics that would apply to each of the various lineages whose members post here.
Madhava - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 05:35:56 +0530
Thank you for opening this informative topic. I would like to remind everyone that this is not a thread where one should start either defending or defying any practices. Cross-traditional comparisons always tend to stir up controversy.

That being said, here are some thoughts on the points you made.

QUOTE
• Should devotees stop chanting brahma-gayatri, if they have received that mantra?

Brahma-gayatri is traditionally a part of the daily rituals of a brahmana. Since we are not concerned with accepting the designation of a brahmana, chanting brahma-gayatri is by no means necessary. However, with this, as with all of the other points you made, one must make a mature decision, having made up his mind about the direction he wants to take.



QUOTE
• Should devotees stop chanting other gayatris and wait until these are given by a guru from an orthodox parivar?

I did. After all the events that had taken place, I no longer had faith in the mantras I was given. If there is no faith in the mantras, why should one go on in a ritualistic manner? On the other hand, if there is faith in the mantras received, then why aspire for receiving them again?


QUOTE
• What dietary modifications are advisable? Is the GM standard (e.g. no carrots) similar to the orthodox? Or is the ISKCON standard sufficient? Or is either standard "too strict" or "not strict enough" in some respects?

The GM standard is quite similar, with a few exceptions when it comes to the details of Ekadasi-diet. This should not be a major concern. Just stay away from meat, fish and eggs, and you should be doing just fine.


QUOTE
• Are sikhas required/optional/disapproved of for unmarried men? For married men?

Optional. It is, in fact, a mystery where the idea of keeping a sikha originally comes from, as far as our Gaudiya canon is concerned.

I asked Sri Ananta Das Baba about sikha with one gurubhai. He laughed and said that one can keep full sikha (referring to my long, knotted hair).


QUOTE
• Should one apply tilaka before initiation into one of the parivars? Is there an appropriate "generic" tilaka-svarupa for one who does not yet know the parivar into which he will be initiated? Should the same mantras be used that were learned in GM and/or ISKCON?

If one has taken up the habit of applying tilaka, he can keep doing it, there is no harm. Since tilaka is supposed to be received from the guru at the time of initiation, there is no generic tilaka-svarupa prescribed for the uninitiated. I don't think anybody will mind if you wear for example Nityananda-style tilaka if that branch of the tradition attracts you.

The mantras for applying tilaka are similar, with the exception that we generally replace "om" with "sri" (ie. zrI kezavAya namaH), while others just drop the "om" altogether.


QUOTE
• When chanting the maha-mantra, is it desirable/acceptable/unacceptable to chant any particular mantra between rounds?

Chanting the panca-tattva mantra is an ISKCON - innovation, and it is even debatable whether A.C. Bhaktivedanta himself introduced it. Some opine it was a later development.

In my tradition, we chant four rounds of panca-tattva mantra before the daily japa of maha-mantra, and we don't chant anything in between the rounds. Of course, if you wish, you may chant anything according to inspiration to guide your thoughts in meditation.


QUOTE
• What other points should a devotee be aware of, if trying to "re-learn" his way around Gaudiya Vaishnavism after being trained up in ISKCON and/or GM?

I suppose "always keep an open mind" is a very important point. Cast aside preconceived values, always be prepared to widen your horizon.
vamsidas - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 06:05:58 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 8 2003, 12:05 AM)
After all the events that had taken place, I no longer had faith in the mantras I was given. If there is no faith in the mantras, why should one go on in a ritualistic manner? On the other hand, if there is faith in the mantras received, then why aspire for receiving them again?

Of course, the maha-mantra is a "special case" -- since it was not received via a "diksha" in the usual sense, surely there is no obstacle to continuing to chant Hare Krishna, even before initiation. But I wonder whether there are any other valuable "details" about chanting harinama that pertain to one lineage or another? For example, you mentioned the practice in your lineage of chanting panca-tattva mantra BEFORE rather than "in between." Another devotee here has mentioned that his guru taught a method of counting rounds on the fingers, rather than with japa-mala. I know that in some traditions, one isn't supposed to use japa-mala until after receiving harinama from one's guru.

So please (not just you, Madhava -- I'd love to hear from others regarding their tradition's particulars) share anything else that seems pertinent to you, and help us gain a sense of the most appropriate "transitional" practices for a trained-but-also-mistrained devotee aspiring to find shelter in one of the orthodox parivars.

Please note that with the above I mean no disrespect to those who follow the ISKCON/GM practices. For devotees in those traditions, their practices are no doubt appropriate -- and those practices have obviously played a role in the worldwide spread of the maha-mantra. I don't mean this thread as an inquiry into "how can I replace the ISKCON/GM standard with something 'better'" -- and I am not implying that ISKCON/GM devotees should change their practices -- rather, I am simply inquiring about the appropriate standards for someone who has already understood his place as being outside the ISKCON/GM milieu in which he was first trained.
vamsidas - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 06:17:32 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 8 2003, 12:05 AM)
I suppose "always keep an open mind" is a very important point. Cast aside preconceived values, always be prepared to widen your horizon.

Yes! Perhaps this is just my naοvete, but I very much hope that as raganuga-bhakti in the "orthodox" traditions grows in the West, we will maintain a spirit of mutual respect and affection for traditions different from our own. Not that we compromise our own lineages in the name of "syncretism" or "ecumenism" but rather that we develop a culture of trnad api sunicena in which we focus on building ourselves up (and on building others up as we are able), rather than tearing others down.

Most of us were trained in a very different mood in the organizations from which we came. So perhaps to a Gaudiya Vaishnava from India, the above is nothing remarkable. Even so, I wonder: might we in the West have a rare opportunity for intra-Caitanyaite cooperation and understanding that may even exceed what is now common in India?
Gaurasundara - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:10:32 +0530
QUOTE(vamsidas @ Oct 8 2003, 12:35 AM)
Of course, the maha-mantra is a "special case" -- since it was not received via a "diksha" in the usual sense, surely there is no obstacle to continuing to chant Hare Krishna, even before initiation.  But I wonder whether there are any other valuable "details" about chanting harinama that pertain to one lineage or another?  For example, you mentioned the practice in your lineage of chanting panca-tattva mantra BEFORE rather than "in between."

I think this is an incredibly useful and informative thread that goes along the lines of the topic Vamsidasji started earlier, regarding the production of an explanatory booklet. This very important issue about how to "unlearn" and "relearn" a philosophy or how to deal with a major change of life is something that is practically guaranteed to cross the minds of any serious thinker. Therefore I hope that a lot of people will have contributions to make in this thread as well as learn from it.

That said, may I ask Vamsidasji: what exactly do you mean by "in-between"? As far as I know, ISKCONites are supposed to chant their version of the Panca-tattva mantra before beginning each round. Is that what you meant by in-between?

According to 'Guru/Bhakta Tattva Vijnana' by Sri Ananta das Pandit, Pandit brings up a very interesting point about the chanting of harinama. After speaking on the necessities of sadhu-sanga, guru-padasraya and diksa, he speaks about diksa mantras:

"One should know that before accepting diksa, the fruit of harinama-sankirtana will be the taking of the shelter of the genuine guru and his instructions on diksa, and after taking diksa the fruit of nama sankirtana will be prema." - page 16-17

I hope that answers your questions somewhat. It is at least important in affirming (or re-affirming) the importance of taking diksa. Someone who is probably disillusioned by his experiences with ISKCON/GM may need to know the importance of taking re-initiation according to Jiva Gosvami, and that harinama can help this.
Babhru - Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:19:42 +0530
I think this could be a useful thread, and I really like Madhava's approach to it, as well as his common-sense responses to Vaishnava das' specific questions. Vaishnava das has suggested something about "unlearning" or "relearning," but I think it's more a matter of becoming socialized.

Regarding the pancha-tattva mantra in japa, I was present in Honolulu when Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was asked about chanting this. As I remember, the question was posed by my friend Pandu das (now Gadadhar-pran, a disciple of Lalita Prasad Thakur) about chanting rounds of pancha-tattva mantra after finishing our prescribed rounds of the maha-mantra. Srila Prabhupada suggested that we may, if we like, chant the pancha-tattva mantra before each round of maha-mantra, and that may help minimize offenses in our chanting. It wasn't a big thing; it wasn't something he went out of his way to introduce. I think it was picked up by devotees rather informally. And I'm not aware that he ever discussed it on any other occasion.

I look forward to this discussion unfolding as Madhava suggests, without attacking or defending any particular tradition. It's interesting to see the varieties and try to discern what's essential. As I've suggested elsewhere, many of the practices considered traditional by more orthodox lines were innovations at one time.
Madhava - Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:34:02 +0530
QUOTE(Vaishnava-das @ Oct 8 2003, 01:40 AM)
That said, may I ask Vamsidasji: what exactly do you mean by "in-between"?

Before:

sri krishna caitanya prabhu nityananda |
sri advaita gadadhara srivasadi gaura bhakta vrinda ||
hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare |
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ||
hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare |
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ||

In between:

hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare |
sri krishna caitanya prabhu nityananda ||
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare |
sri advaita gadadhara srivasadi gaura bhakta vrinda ||
hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare |
sri krishna caitanya prabhu nityananda ||
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare |
sri advaita gadadhara srivasadi gaura bhakta vrinda ||



Seriously speaking, I think he refers to the difference between for example our line, where we chant four malas of panca-tattva before chanting maha-mantra, in contrast to those who chant one panca-tattva matra between each round of maha-mantra.
Madhava - Thu, 09 Oct 2003 01:02:56 +0530
QUOTE(vamsidas @ Oct 8 2003, 12:47 AM)
Even so, I wonder: might we in the West have a rare opportunity for intra-Caitanyaite cooperation and understanding that may even exceed what is now common in India?

As far as the orthodox community goes, I am quite certain that the answer is yes. Most of us know each other fairly well. We have quite a good representation of the various lineages here. Some people whom I know personally:


[*] Radhapada das, Tamal Baran das, Haricarana das and a good number of others in the line from Dhananjaya Pandit down to Ananta Das Babaji

[*] Karunamayi das and dasi and the rest from the line of Narottama das Thakur down to Sakhicharan das Babaji and Krishna das Madrasi Baba, as well as some others (whom I don't know all that well yet) in the same line down to Sakhicharan das Babaji and Madan Mohan das Babaji

[*] Braja Mohan das and others from the line of Nityananda Prabhu down through Prana Gopala Goswami's gurubadi and Prana Krishna Das Babaji, disciple of Yadugopal Goswami, as well as Radha Krishna das initiated by Prema Gopal Goswami, an acarya in the aforesaid gurubadi

[*] Minaketan Ramdas and Nitai das from the line of Nityananda Prabhu down to Tinkudi Goswami, as well as Manorama dasi in the same line, initiated by Oriya Krishna Das Baba, a disciple of Tinkudi Goswami

[*] Advaitadas in the line from Advaita Acarya down to Nikunja Gopal Goswami

[*] Jagadananda das from the line of Jahnava Mata through the Baghna Pada Goswamis down to Lalita Prasad Thakur

Apologies to anyone I missed. That's quite a bit of variety already. Six distinct lines and eight branches altogether. Most of us keep regularly in touch and have cordial relationships. The only traditional group I can think of who is consistent in their non-interactive stand is the group of Haridas Shastri from Gadadhar Parivar, who has a dozen or so Western disciples. They seem to prefer minding their own business and staying away from the rest.

In the modern day, we have two great advantages contributing to the intra-Caitanyaite communication and possible consequent cooperation, which weren't present in the pristine days of the tradition: time and location. The original branches grew to a great extent separately from each other on account of their being formed at different places over periods of time. In contrast to this, we, who are the first roots of the aforesaid branches on the Western soil, have all come in contact with the tradition and each other over a relatively short period of time, and given the advantages of modern technology, location is no longer an obstacle to interaction.

The role of the ISKCON / GM branch is another issue altogether. It is very hard to predict the degree of their interaction or lack thereof. There are some very positive examples, such as Swami BV Tripurari, who keep an open mind and refrain from the critique which unnecessarily often has stained their branch. My educated (more or less) guess is that over the following decades to come, both ISKCON and GM will disintegrate into several groups which display a rather wide range of attitudes, some of them growing closer to the orthodox tradition, others, perhaps as a counter-reaction to this, evolving into strict hard-liners who protect the heritage which they consider the "real tradition of Caitanya".