Google
Web         Gaudiya Discussions
Gaudiya Discussions Archive » DEVOTIONAL PRACTICES
Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Worshiping shilas -



Hari Saran - Wed, 07 May 2003 10:08:54 +0530



Does anyone in this August assembly, knows anything about this attractive Shilas of Sri Radhakunda?

ys
adiyen - Wed, 07 May 2003 17:41:04 +0530
Hard to say from the pic, HSji. I went to the website and I think I recogise the Radha-Krishna deities as Govindaji of Radhakunda. My favourite darshan when I was there.

Most of the temples at Radhakunda have Shilas, and there are many many temples, starting with Sri Gopinatha, Govindaji, Radha-Vinoda, Madan-Mohan, Syamsundara, as well as Jagannath and Gaur-Nitai. The devotee who runs the ss website may have taken these pics at any of the temples.

Braj Mohan Das.
Hari Saran - Thu, 08 May 2003 10:27:36 +0530
QUOTE
Most of the temples at Radhakunda have Shilas, and there are many many temples, starting with Sri Gopinatha, Govindaji, Radha-Vinoda, Madan-Mohan, Syamsundara, as well as Jagannath and Gaur-Nitai. The devotee who runs the ss website may have taken these pics at any of the temples.


Yes, you right! One visits all these temples thinking to keep in mind all the details, but how? There are so much of Sri Krishna's lila all over... Just see, now I found these beautiful Srila Narottama Das Thakura's Shilas

I just do not understand how Indradyumna S. from Iskcon got it for himself ?
Considering that these Shilas belonged to a high advanced Vaisnava like S.N.T, I always thought that these Divine Stones would be worshiped by descendentes or disciples only ?

ys
adiyen - Thu, 08 May 2003 11:49:37 +0530
Sri Narottama Das has many spiritual descendents, including the many Vaishnavas of the land of Manipur where Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the national religion. The Lord and the Vaishnavas are very kind.

Whatever the bonafides of Iskcon devotees, many traditional Gaudiyas respect them for their steadfastness and dynamism as an organisation. I saw Indradyumna Swami in Radhakunda and he appears very sincere.

Curious that these shilas have my diksha-name.
Madhava - Thu, 08 May 2003 15:37:59 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ May 8 2003, 04:57 AM)
Yes, you right! One visits all these temples thinking to keep in mind all the details, but how? There are so much of Sri Krishna's lila all over... Just see, now I found these beautiful Srila Narottama Das Thakura's Shilas

I just do not understand how Indradyumna S. from Iskcon got it for himself ?
Considering that these Shilas belonged to a high advanced Vaisnava like S.N.T, I always thought  that these Divine Stones would be worshiped by descendentes or disciples only ?

Many have expressed a doubt on whether the silas are originally of Narottama's or not.

It is noted in the 9th chapter of Prema-vilasa that Narottama's father worshiped a Salagrama-sila, praying for the Lord to receive a worthy son, which he indeed did. However, there is no account anywhere (Bhakti Ratnakara, Narottama Vilasa, Prema Vilasa and Karnananda) of Narottama's having worshiped a sila.

It is not at all uncommon that people manufacture stories about the deities being worshiped in a temple. For example the present Gosain of the Syamasundara Mandir of Vrindavan claims (and has printed pamphlets to that extent) that the deity being worshiped in the mandir is the only deity anywhere manifest directly from the heart of Radharani, then given by Her to Syamananda. However, there is clear documentation on how Baladeva Vidyabhusana arranged for such a deity to be carved, installed etc.

Gopala Bhatta and Srinivasa would worship silas.
Hari Saran - Fri, 09 May 2003 08:30:42 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 8 2003, 10:07 AM)
Many have expressed a doubt on whether the silas are originally of Narottama's or not.

It is noted in the 9th chapter of Prema-vilasa that Narottama's father worshiped a Salagrama-sila, praying for the Lord to receive a worthy son, which he indeed did. However, there is no account anywhere (Bhakti Ratnakara, Narottama Vilasa, Prema Vilasa and Karnananda) of Narottama's having worshiped a sila.

It is not at all uncommon that people manufacture stories about the deities being worshiped in a temple. For example the present Gosain of the Syamasundara Mandir of Vrindavan claims (and has printed pamphlets to that extent) that the deity being worshiped in the mandir is the only deity anywhere manifest directly from the heart of Radharani, then given by Her to Syamananda. However, there is clear documentation on how Baladeva Vidyabhusana arranged for such a deity to be carved, installed etc.

Gopala Bhatta and Srinivasa would worship silas.

Thanks to share your vision about it. But how about worshiping Shilas in the West, there are so much controversies... Is this type of seva recommended ( for us) by the Acaryas or not ?

I do remember a friend of my named Drida Vrata das from England, he had about 12 differents silas, a per of Goura-Nitai and one huge Shiva-linga. We had, i could say, amazing experiences... He actually told me that " if one has 12 or more silas, the surround cilcle of 200miles around the house or temple, is considered to be a holy place"
So, how is that ji?

Or Braj Mohan das-ji any thought ?

ys
Madhava - Fri, 09 May 2003 18:54:42 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ May 9 2003, 03:00 AM)
Thanks to share your vision about it. But how about worshiping Shilas in the West, there are so much controversies...  Is this type of seva recommended ( for us) by the  Acaryas or not ?

There is no restriction country-wise. It is commonly seen that Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja gives a Govardhana-sila to his dIkSita-disciples to worship, whether Western or Indian.

What is the controversy?

QUOTE
He actually told me that " if one has 12 or more silas, the surround  cilcle of 200miles around the house or temple, is considered to be a holy place"
So, how is that ji?

I suspect it has anything to do with the number of silas. We cannot think that ten Vishnus are better than one Vishnu, and the presence of only one Vishnu is not sufficient to sanctify the atmosphere, making it a holy place. When one begins to perceive the arca-forms of the Lord quantity-wise, one enters the danger-zone of beginning to see them with a mundane eye.
Madhava - Fri, 09 May 2003 18:57:04 +0530
QUOTE
Does anyone in this August assembly

?
Hari Saran - Sat, 10 May 2003 01:27:13 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 9 2003, 01:27 PM)
QUOTE
Does anyone in this August assembly

?

According to The Tormont Webster's Dictionary:

August: adj. 1. Inspiring awe or admiration; majestic. 2. Venerable for reasons of age or high rank. -- See Synonyms at grand. [ latin augustus, venerable, magnificient.] --au-gust-ly adv. --au-gust-ness n.

Augustan: adj. 1. Pertaining to or characteristic of the emperor Augustus or his reing or times. 2. Pertaining to or characteristic of any era resembling the reing of Augustus, as in classicism and refinement.

Augustan age: n. 1. The golden age of Latin Literature during the reign of Augustus (27 b.c.-a.d. 14), to which Horace, Livy, and Ovid belonged. 2. A similar period of great literacy achievement, as during the 18th century in England.

Augustus: n. 1. A title of the Roman emperors



Did I super-estimate the assembly ?
Madhava - Sat, 10 May 2003 05:22:00 +0530
Accha! I thought, "What the * is Harisaran speaking about, it's May now and he speaks of August assembly." Excuse me my non-sophisticated dictionary.
Hari Saran - Sat, 10 May 2003 06:03:40 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 9 2003, 11:52 PM)
Accha! I thought, "What the * is Harisaran speaking about, it's May now and he speaks of August assembly."


August: The eighth month of the year according to the Gregorian Calendar; named after the emperor Augustus.


By the way, thanks for the tips on html


ys

rolleyes.gif
Hari Saran - Sat, 10 May 2003 07:47:36 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 9 2003, 01:24 PM)
There is no restriction country-wise. It is commonly seen that Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja gives a Govardhana-sila to his dIkSita-disciples to worship, whether Western or Indian.

QUOTE
He actually told me that " if one has 12 or more silas, the surround  cilcle of 200miles around the house or temple, is considered to be a holy place"
So, how is that ji?

I suspect it has anything to do with the number of silas. We cannot think that ten Vishnus are better than one Vishnu, and the presence of only one Vishnu is not sufficient to sanctify the atmosphere, making it a holy place. When one begins to perceive the arca-forms of the Lord quantity-wise, one enters the danger-zone of beginning to see them with a mundane eye.

Well well...

I do consider your expressions of love for Krishna but the idea if 12 silas makes more powerful is quite possible. To be honest and with respect, I’m not sure about your statement. The fact is, I was there in Drida’s house for a month and I never experienced such a peace and delighting. Have reading your words I think that there is much more in having 12 shilas=special-worshiping than just a brief definition about the holiness and sanctification of the 200miles or more .

The Gopis in their deep mood of separation, glorifies the ten incarnation of Krishna in order to get some relief from that pain ( vipralambha ). A devotee chants the names of God to purify himself. The numerology of 12. The 12th month of the year. The 12 mahajanas...

Each silas has it is own potency just like one worships Goura-Nitai other may Goura-Radha-Krishna or Goura-Gadadhara, etc.. and all have differences in rasa and consequently provides a whole variety of different experiences .
So the idea about having 12 silas all more can actually gives one what the Gopis were trying to get out of that butter-churning of Sri Krishna’s pastime. Krishna would be nothing if there was not His potencies and Pastimes; no Radhe no Krishna. So, more Krishna one has, more purity one can achieves. Sri Krishna, His Lilas, His associates, everything has to be there; more is better.
So let the people of this beneficial Kali-age, worship Shilas for the pleasure of God; let them chant the names of God on a Shila-mala, that resembles the varieties of Sri Krishna’s lilas let them have as much it aplies to their love to God.

Is there just one holy river, is there just on holy land, is there just one cow or cowheard or Gopi in Sri Krishna's pastime, is there just one holy name, is there just one song to glorify Krishna, is there just one Bhakta?
No ! There are varieties, multiple rasas and sweetness... As the old saying: "Variety is the mother of pleasure". So, ten Vishnus are better than one Vishnu! More Vishnus=more Krishna is pervading or infused in one’s heart.
Lord Padmanabha Swami made by more than 1200+silas
Ys


rolleyes.gif
Madhava - Sat, 10 May 2003 07:56:26 +0530
QUOTE
Is there just one holy river, is there just on holy land, is there just one cow or cowheard or Gopi in Sri Krishna's pastime, is there just one holy name, is there just one song to glorify Krishna, is there just one Bhakta?
No ! There are varieties, multiple rasas and sweetness... As the old saying: "Variety is the mother of pleasure". So, ten Vishnus are better than one Vishnu! More Vishnus=more Krishna is pervading or infused in one’s heart.

Well, for me there is only one Krishna, who is the prana-vallabha of my Radharani. What will happen to me if I start thinking that there are many different Krishnas I need to worship to make my worship complete?

Certainly He has many associates and many names, but He is one. EkamevAdvitIyaM neha nAnAsti kiJcana. There is no "more Krishna", since the One out there is already the all-inclusive Absolute Truth.

If someone wants to argue in favor of many murtis of Krishna being better than one only, some scriptural evidence is required.
Madhava - Sat, 10 May 2003 08:20:30 +0530
QUOTE(Harisaran @ ,)
The Gopis in their deep mood of separation, glorifies the ten incarnation of Krishna in order to get some relief from that pain ( vipralambha ).

Where would this be?

QUOTE
The numerology of 12. The 12th month of the year. The 12 mahajanas...

The three modes of nature, the three principal gods, the four social orders, the four kumaras, the five rasas, the five Pandavas, the six seasons, the six Gosvamis, the seven secondary rasas, the seven great sages, the eight elements, the eight Vasus, the nine practices of bhakti, the nine Yogendras, the ten kinds of life-airs, the ten offences against the Holy Name, the eleven moods of siddha-deha, the eleven Rudras, the twelve cantos of the Bhagavata, the twelve Adityas, the thirteen anubhavas, the thirteen wives of Kasyapa, the fourteen planetary systems, the fourteen Manus...

blink.gif


QUOTE
Each silas has it is own potency just like one worships Goura-Nitai other may Goura-Radha-Krishna or Goura-Gadadhara, etc.. and all have differences in rasa and consequently provides a whole variety of different experiences .

But can you mix up all different forms of upasana at the same time?

QUOTE
So, more Krishna one has, more purity one can achieves. Sri Krishna, His Lilas, His associates, everything has to be there; more is better.

So, next time you sit down in the morning time and think of Radha and Krishna waking up in the nikunja, think that there are three Krishnas actually waking up; when mother Yasoda calls Krishna for breakfast, think of five Krishnas coming for the meal; and when Krishna leaves for the pastures with the cows and calves, think of twelve Krishnas, for after all, twelve Krishnas can handle the cows much better than one can.

QUOTE
So let the people of this beneficial Kali-age, worship Shilas for the pleasure of God; let them chant the names of God on a Shila-mala, that resembles the varieties of Sri Krishna’s lilas let them have as much it aplies to their love to God.

What is a sila-mala?
Hari Saran - Sat, 10 May 2003 09:02:08 +0530
Madhava,May 10 2003, 02:50 AM
QUOTE
What is a sila-mala?

Dear one, that is just a metaphoric expression of the density of one's desire to worship his Istadeva; throught heart-way... Radhe Radhe!

Anything but never forget Sri Sri Radha-Ramanji !

ys
rolleyes.gif
Hari Saran - Sat, 10 May 2003 20:48:20 +0530
QUOTE
What is the controversy?



Some disciples of Srila Narayna Maharaja says that he do not recommend that type of worship for westeners because it could lead to commit great offenses ? Are not Silas so merciful as Lord Gourasundara ? Does Srila Ananta das Pandita has any personal Sila ? Wich is the most famous Sila in Sri Radha-kunda ?

ys
Madhava - Sun, 11 May 2003 01:40:22 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ May 10 2003, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE
What is the controversy?



Some disciples of Srila Narayna Maharaja says that he do not recommend that type of worship for westeners because it could lead to commit great offenses ? Are not Silas so merciful as Lord Gourasundara ? Does Srila Ananta das Pandita has any personal Sila ? Wich is the most famous Sila in Sri Radha-kunda ?

ys

I think in general their mood is away from arcana, at least from what I could see when I spent time with them; no sila, no vigraha, no anything. There was great concern for aparadha.

However, I fail to see how this idea of practically renouncing arcana jives with the idea that "zraddha-vizeSataH prItIr zrI-mUrtir aGghri-sevane" is one of the five most potent and eminent limbs of devotion.

Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja has his own Govardhana-sila. Unfortunately I don't have a picture. My camera had some issues towards the end of the trip, and the flash would not work at all.

The most famous sila of Radha Kunda? Perhaps the sila found by Raghunatha Das Gosvami, the tongue of Govardhan, found in the inner yard of the Govinda Mandir?
Hari Saran - Sun, 11 May 2003 02:08:09 +0530
QUOTE
The most famous sila of Radha Kunda? Perhaps the sila found by Raghunatha Das Gosvami, the tongue of Govardhan, found in the inner yard of the Govinda Mandir?


Radhe Radhe !

Is this the Govardhana's tongue that you are talking about ?

ys



rolleyes.gif
Madhava - Sun, 11 May 2003 02:59:05 +0530
Exactly.
Hari Saran - Tue, 13 May 2003 07:53:29 +0530
Dear Madhavananda,

I have another question regarding 'Silas' : is this 'object' somehow related to Siva-linga; both of them have the same color and sometime the same shape ? In Navadvipa somewhere, there is an efugent form of Hari-Hara that I do not have a picture. But I do have an art of Jagannatha-vesha-lila "After the new moon day to till full moon day in the month of Kartika on Monday the Lord Balabhadra is decorated with half black and half white as like Hari-Hara". So... Hari-Hara (Vishnu-Siva), Jagannatha-vesha-lilas, Vishnu-Silas and Siva-Lingas, 'both divine stones' ; what is the relation between Them ?

ys
Madhava - Tue, 13 May 2003 12:34:24 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ May 13 2003, 02:23 AM)
I have another question regarding 'Silas' : is this 'object' somehow related to Siva-linga; both of them have the same color and sometime the same shape ?

Since both of the divinities take on the appearance of a stone, it is not astonishing that they share the same colour, and often a round shape. However, Siva-lingam is generally not exactly the same shape as salagrama, as lingam is commonly joint with the yoni of Parvati, and when not, it is still more tall than it is wide, whereas salagrama is round.
Hari Saran - Tue, 13 May 2003 20:24:45 +0530
QUOTE
Since both of the divinities take on the appearance of a stone



Why do They both take stones forms? You do not have to tell the story but the meaning why, please.
Madhava - Tue, 13 May 2003 20:55:54 +0530
Because stones don't break easily and last from one generation to the next? Really, I have no idea. Bhagavatam (11.27.12) says that the murti can be made in eight different ways, namely 1) stone, (2) wood, (3) metal, (4) earth, (5) painting, (6) sand, (7) mind, and (8) jewels. Salagram is one such form among the many worshipable forms.

If http://www.salagram.net has nothing about it, perhaps you could get in touch with Padmanabha Gosvami of Radha Raman to ask about it; I recall he wrote a booklet about shalagrams, and I'm sure he has far more detailed information on the topic than most of our audience here has.
Guest - Wed, 14 May 2003 03:30:09 +0530
QUOTE
If http://www.salagram.net has nothing about it,


Dear Madhavananda, actually there are some interesting information about "Seeing God in Stone"

Thank you wink.gif
Guest - Wed, 14 May 2003 03:33:37 +0530
QUOTE(Guest @ May 13 2003, 10:00 PM)
QUOTE
If http://www.salagram.net has nothing about it,


Dear Madhavananda, actually there are some interesting information about "Seeing God in Stone"

Thank you wink.gif

Yours
Hari Saran das
Hari Saran - Wed, 14 May 2003 04:26:48 +0530
QUOTE
I'm sure he has far more detailed information on the topic than most of our audience here has.


Since Gouranga's mercy stated to come down from Advaita's worshiping and prayers; I certainly could doubt your preposition.

ys
wink.gif
Madhava - Wed, 14 May 2003 04:37:05 +0530
?
Hari Saran - Wed, 14 May 2003 06:39:21 +0530
Madhava
QUOTE
I'm sure he has far more detailed information on the topic than most of our audience here has.

QUOTE
Since Gouranga's mercy stated to come down from Advaita's worshiping and prayers; I certainly could doubt your proposition.

QUOTE(Madhava @ May 13 2003, 11:07 PM)
?

In my humble opinion, since the audience here has been influenced by Advaita's Parivara, as so, they do naturally have something to say about Sila's worshiping; as it was set by the head of the Parivara.

ys
Advaitadas - Wed, 14 May 2003 11:01:01 +0530
"In my humble opinion, since the audience here has been influenced by Advaita's Parivara, as so, they do naturally have something to say about Sila's worshiping..."

There is only mentioning of Advaita Prabhu worshipping a Shalagrama Shila, and that is in the highly controversial and suspect booklet Advaita Mangala by Haricharan Das. All other authorities say that instead, Advaita Prabhu worshipped dual deities of Sri Sri Radha Madan Gopal. The picture at the link is also funny. In none of the narrations of Advaita Prabhu's pastime of invoking Mahaprabhu is there any mentioning of Him worshipping a Shalagram Shila.
Madhava - Wed, 14 May 2003 11:13:47 +0530
True enough. I always had this idea, but now that I'm looking into Caitanya Caritamrita where the idea supposedly came from, it just says "kRSNa-pUjA kore tulasI gaGgAjala-diyA" (1.13.70), and "jala-tulasI diyA pUjA korite lAgilA" (3.3.224).

However, Jagannatha Misra and Sacidevi, disciples of Advaita Prabhu, did worship salagrama. "eta boli duGhe rohe haraSita haJa | zAlagrAma sevA kore vizeSa koriyA ||". (1.13.86). This is also stated in 1.14.9.

Nowadays the etiquette is followed, at least in regards to Giriraja silas, that one should receive the sila from his guru. Does the same apply for salagrama, and was the tradition followed in the earlier days of the sampradaya?
Advaitadas - Wed, 14 May 2003 12:03:17 +0530
Sometimes deities are bestowed by the Guru, sometimes by Krishna, sometimes they come from the family or again other sources. Advaita Prabhu may or may not have bestowed the Shalagrama Shila to Jagannatha Mishra and Shaci devi. He Himself received Madangopal by Divine Intervention and Radharani on the order of his Guru Madhavendra Puripada -

Sri Isana Nagara's 'Advaita Prakasa' says that Advaita Prabhu had a visionary dream as He arrived at Giriraja Govardhana. Seeing Mount Govardhana, the waves of Advaita Prabhu's ecstatic love billowed up even higher. He danced there with raised arms and beheld all the places where Radha and Krsna perform Their eternal pastimes. Finally He reclined at the base of a Banyan tree, where He had a visionary dream at the end of the night. He saw Sri Nanda-nandana coming to Him, captivating the worlds with His luster of fresh monsoon clouds, wearing a crown of peacock feathers and holding a flute to His mouth. Dressed in a yellow dhoti and sporting golden anklebells, His butter-soft body was filled with the cream of rasika nectar. Seeing this extraordinary form, Advaita was in paramount ecstasy and He danced with raised arms.

Krsnacandra said: "You are My very body and when I attain Your association the waves of prema surge. You are the greatly benevolent Gopesvara Siva, appearing for the benefit of the conditioned souls, redeeming them by unearthing the lost holy places, preaching devotion and the chanting of Krsna's names. A divine jewelled image of Mine, named Madana Mohana, is lying abandoned in a kunja at Dvadasa Aditya Tirtha on the bank of the Yamuna. The body is covered with only a small layer of earth. Previously Kubja served this deity very nicely, but in the end I have hidden Myself, fearing robbers and vandals. Bring some people from the village to dig Me up and establish My service for the benefit of the world."

“So far the divine intervention. Advaita Prakasa then speaks of the gift of the Guru. After Advaita Prabhu brought the picture of Madana Gopala from Vraja, Madhavendra Puripada arrived in Santipura, and told Him: "There is an extraordinary spiritual power in the (deity-) service of Krsna— through it, the conditioned soul attains the Lord's eternal abode." Who can understand the glories of a maha bhagavata like Sripada Madhavendra Puri? When he beheld the picture he sometimes laughed, wept or danced in ecstatic love.

After a while he regained external consciousness and spoke about the easy way to attain Krsna. Puripada was very happy to hear of Madana Gopala's order and said: "O child of mine, You are filled with pure love— now make a picture of Sri Radhika also. When You behold Radha-Krsna together You will cultivated the love of the gopis — hence the deity service of Radha-Krsna as a pair is the best of all."

Madhavendra Puri then told Advaita: "Get married and run Your household for Krsna. By Krsna's grace You will have many sons who will redeem the conditioned souls by distributing the holy name of Krsna." Advaita Prabhu said: "Deity service is certainly very auspicious, but if we commit offences My family will go to hell." Madhavendra Puripada said: "Krsna is an ocean of mercy and He is completely subdued by Your love. He will not take offences from the next fourteen generations of Your dynasty."

Similarly Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis received their deities Govinda and Madanmohan by divine intervention, while Jiva Gosvami received Radha Damodara from his Guru Rupa Gosvami personally. There is no account, to my knowledge, of whether or not Jagannatha Mishra and Shaci devi received the Shalagram Shilas from Advaita Prabhu or from another source.
Hari Saran - Thu, 15 May 2003 09:30:59 +0530
Radhe Radhe !

Thanks so much everyone !
Madhavananda-ji, Advaita-ji, Braj Mohan-ji and all other Jis !

Without the presence of 108 Srila Ananta Das Pandita-Ji, and the 'August Assembly' here, this Golden-Age would never be 'As Bright As It Is' ! Nitai-Goura Hari Bol.... Jay Goura-Bhakta-vrinda !
B)