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Whatever is left over from the archives of the old Raganuga.Com forums after most of the substantial threads were moved to the relevant areas of the main forums.

Visnn-/Shakti-/Jiva-tattva, Nitya-siddha - Needing clearness on this topic



Frodo - Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:58:20 +0530
Hare Krishna,

I appreciate to get more visibility and clearness (with sastric references if possible) on the following queries:

1) Is it true that only the male God aspects are Ón the category of visnu-tattva and the female God aspects are in the category of sakti-tattva?
2) Is the jiva-tattva category only usable for defining conditioned jivas in the material realm but not for nitya-siddha jivas? If yes, would this mean that the nitya-siddha jivas would than purely belong to the antaranga-sakti (inner energy) and no longer to the tatastha-sakti (marginal enerry) of Bhagavan Krishna?
3) Which is the correct sanscrit definition for differentiating the nitya-siddha jivas from the nitya-siddha God female aspects? Do all the nitya-siddha jivas belong to the same sakti-tattva category as Radharani, Laksmi-devi, Revati, Sita-devi etc. or to a different jiva-based sakti-tattva category which I naturally presume as the nitya-siddha jivas are not God?
4) Do the male nitya-siddha jivas such gopals etc. in Vrindivan also belong to the jiva-based sakti-tattva category or only the female nitya-siddha jivas? If not, which is the tattva name for their category?
5) Can the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna with His eternal consort Sri Radhika defined as Absolute Soul or Jiva too or does jiva only refers to His individual souls - i.e. eternal children of God in conditioned or liberated state?
6) I've heard that Parvati does also belong to the Sakti-tattva category as Radharani and her other God female direct or indirect expansions like Lakshmi devi etc. Is Parvati therefore not a nitya-siddha jiva as a manjari nitya-siddha jiva or gopi nitya-siddha jiva?
7) Is it true that millions of God male and respetive God female aspects exist i Vaikuntha - i.e. spiritual sky?

Thanks for your clarification on those points.

Best regards.
Frodo
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 15 Feb 2003 03:22:05 +0530
Main philosophical exponents of this website are not available at the moment.One has moved to another country and super administrator is in India.I will try to answer possibly,but this will also take some time.Please,excuse for that Frodo.In a meantime try to look at all the other related topics on Raganuga website.
Radhapada - Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:07:01 +0530
Regarding the first question:
Mohini Murti is a Visnu incarnation. Sri Radhika, although the personification of Sri Krsna's bliss potency in its highest degree, madanaikya mahabhava, is worshipped along with Sri Krsna in a dual form of Godhead.

kimva, prema-rasamaya krsnera svarupa
tanra sakti tanra saha haya eka-rupa

"Or, She (Radhika) is of Lord Krsna's svarupa for She embodies prema rasa. The sakti is in oneness with Him. (Caitanya Caritamrta)

Regarding the third question:

krsna-kanta-gana dekhi tri vidha prakara
eka laksmi-gana, pure mahisi-gana ara
vrajangana-rupa, ara kanta gana-sara
sri radhika haite kanta-ganera vistara

The lovers of Lord Krsna are of three kinds: one kind are the Laksmis (Goddesses of fortune in Vaikuntha), the Queens of the city (of Dwaraka) and the beautiful milkmaids of Vraja, the essense of them being Sri Radhika, whom they all expand from.
Frodo - Sun, 23 Feb 2003 04:58:40 +0530
Dear Radhapada,

Thanks for your replies regarding my queries 1 and 3:

If noone is able to provide answers to the other queries 2, 4-7 than it is not a problem for me as my heart is already aware of the responses and I only needed some scriptural confirmations with respective references which I will get from other devotees living here in Switzerland.

Sincerely,
Frodo
Guest - Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:49:47 +0530
2) Is the jiva-tattva category only usable for defining conditioned jivas in the material realm but not for nitya-siddha jivas? If yes, would this mean that the nitya-siddha jivas would than purely belong to the antaranga-sakti (inner energy) and no longer to the tatastha-sakti (marginal enerry) of Bhagavan Krishna?

Jiva all is tatastha.

3) Which is the correct sanscrit definition for differentiating the nitya-siddha jivas from the nitya-siddha God female aspects? Do all the nitya-siddha jivas belong to the same sakti-tattva category as Radharani, Laksmi-devi, Revati, Sita-devi etc. or to a different jiva-based sakti-tattva category which I naturally presume as the nitya-siddha jivas are not God?

Sakti tattva it is God too. Jiva not God, but jiva the same category sakti. Jiva sakti but not supreme sakti. smile.gif Jiva is part internal energy.

4) Do the male nitya-siddha jivas such gopals etc. in Vrindivan also belong to the jiva-based sakti-tattva category or only the female nitya-siddha jivas? If not, which is the tattva name for their category?

Jiva reflect Krisna-Balarama or Radha.

7) Is it true that millions of God male and respetive God female aspects exist i Vaikuntha - i.e. spiritual sky?

It is one person. Once Krisna do like Lord Nrayana, once Krisna do like Nrisimha. It is do simultaneously, simultaneously God happy in millions millions forms.
jiva - Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:43:46 +0530
Dear Frodo,I have followed your questions in regards to the "Visnu/Sakti/jiva/Nitya-siddha topic" and have read the replies.
From your postings you presented to us ,it seems to me that you still are not clear on this issue.

Answers 1.& 7.

According to Jiva Gosvamin,the highest of all Tattvas is 'advaja-jnana-tattva'.Word 'advaya' does not mean 'sole' or ;without a second' but it signifies 'that like which there is no Second Reality or Tattva'.The ultimate reality is called 'advaya' because there is no other self-existent conscious or unconscious principle which is similar to it/svayam siddha-tadrsatadrsa-vastvantarabhavat/.In itself,also(syagata-bheda)the ultimate reality is 'advaya',because it is an undivisible substance in which there is no difference between the essence and the form,such is found between the conscious principle and the organic body in a human being.It is also called 'advaya' in the sense that its own infinite Saktis or Energies are the only things which accompany it (sva-saktyena-sahayatvat),but which cannot exist without its ultimate existence(tena- vina tasam asiddhatvat).The 'Advaya-jnana-tattva' is Bhagavan as the highest and most perfect manifestation of the Absolute.In his 'Bhagavat-sandarbha',Jiva Gosvamin points out at the outset that the Saktis posses the two characteristics of Aintyatva and Svabhavikatva.By 'aintyatva' is meant that the Saktis in them-selves are inscrutable and beyond the reach of human taught and reason(tarkasaha) or that they are capable of bringing about impossible effects(durghata ghatakatva);but also refers to the peculiar relation in which these Saktis stand to the Saktimat,the possessor of the Sakti,and which consists of an inscrutable relation of difference in non-difference(acintya-bhedabheda).By Svabhavikatva is meant that the Saktis are natural to the Lord and consistute in their totality his very self or essence,although in his infinite power he actually transcends them.

Answers 2-6.

'Jiva-tattva' refers to the living beings in general; 'nitya-siddha' refers to the type of perfected devotee.

The Sakti of the Bhagavan is viewed in the three aspects and is accordingly grouped into three classes,namely Sakti as Svarupa,Sakti as Tatastha and Sakti as Bahiranga.These are successively called Para or Svarupa-sakti,Tatastha or Jiva-sakti and Bahiranga or Maya-sakti.The division bases itself upon a text of the Visnu Purana which style them respectively as Para,Ksetrajna and Avidya.The Svarupa or Para-sakti may be described as that Energy which constitutes the intrinsic perfect selfhood of the Bhagavan and is therefore inseparable from him.This Energy is thus Antaranga or intrinsic,as oposed to the other Maya-sakti which is Bahiranga or external and never affects his true self.The Tatastha or Jiva-sakti is,as the name itself implies,that form of the divine Energy which,being distinct from both,does not fall under either of the above categories of Antaranga and Bahiranga Saktis,and which is yet related to both.The jiva or individual self is an aspect of this Sakti which the Bhagavan displays in his role of Paramatman.Being subject to the Maya-sakti,the jiva cannot,until released,be connected with the Svarupa-sakti,which is beyond the affection of Maya-sakti,but since the Bhagavan is the ultimate essential source of the jiva,the jiva can yet be finally connected with the essential Svarupa-sakti.
Thus,in the highest form of the Bhagavan there is a direct and full display of his Svarupa-sakti,which goes to make up his Svarupa or perfect self.The other two Saktis are displayed indirectly through the medium of his partial form of Paramatma.

The Svarupa-sakti,viewed in its different aspects,is classified,on the authority of the Visnu Purana,into Sandhini,Samvit and Hladini Saktis.The Sandhini Sakti is the energy of existence of the jiva and Prakrti.It is in relation to this Sakti that the Bhagavan is described as the ultimate reality and the world and the individual as relative reality.By the Samvit Sakti,the Bhagavan is both the knowledge and the knower,and makes others possessed of knowledge.The last Hladini Sakti is his energy of infinite bliss by which he is bliss itself,becomes blissful and also causes in the devotee pure bliss.By this Sakti he has the power of communicating atoms of this infinite bliss to his Associates (Parasadas/Nitya-siddhas) and his devotees.Radha,who is Lord's eternal consort and greatest bhakta is represented as the highest form his Hladini Sakti.It must be noted in this connexion that the Svarupa-Sakti is supposed take two forms,namely1)the Svarupa,which refers to the Lord himself,and 2)Svarupa-Vaibhava,which includes his Associates/nitya-siddhas/,his residence etc.which are thus parts or functions of himself.

Although this is the principal classification of the Saktis (''kindergarten stuff'' as Nitai[member of this forum] somewhere
said)they are said to be infinite in number and all of them are presented as wives of the Lord.As such they are distinctive deities,having name,form and personality.The Antaranga Mahasakti of the Lord is Laksmi or Mahalaksmi,who forms his Svarupa and being the first manifestation,is the ground or Asraya of all other Saktis.The Bahiranga Sakti is of course Maya.Each of these again has many aspects and is named accordingly.'Bhagavat-sandarbha' mentions only some of the aspects of Mahalaksmi as Svarupa-sakti;but each of them can also have an additional significance as aspects of the Bahiranga Maya Sakti.Thus Sri as an aspect of Mahalaksmi signifies divine excellence or Bhagavat-sampad;but Sri as an aspect of Mayameans wordly excellence or Jagad0sampad.In the same way,Ila is both Lila-sakti and Bhu-sakti;and Kanti ,Kirti etc are similary interpreted as possessing two meanings and included in both the aspects of Sakti.As an aspect of Laksmi,Vidya is the source of spiritual knowledge(tattva-jnana)and of bliss of divine love (premananda) by which the Lordship of the Bhagavan is suppressed voluntarily and posited into personal relationship with the devotee;Laksmi is again classsified into Sandhini,Samvit and Hladini;nut the support (adhara) of these sakti-murtis are Vimala,Jaya,Yoga,Prahvi,Isana and Anigraha.The functions of these are included roughly by the names themeselves:for instance,Jaya=Utkarsani,power of eminence;Yoga=Yogamaya or Sarjanartha Sakti,creative power;Prahvi=Vicitrananda>samarthya-hetu,the power which causes the capacity for excellent bliss;Isana=Sarvadhikarita,mastery over all beings etc.

I hope this helps to better understand some of these complex issues.

My excuses for the lengthy post or/and for making an error .

With respect,
Guest_Frodo - Sun, 02 Mar 2003 07:45:16 +0530
Jiva,

Thanks a lot for your detailed information. In reference to your section below I have just one additional question as follows also still referring to my original questions:

'The last Hladini Sakti is his energy of infinite bliss by which he is bliss itself,becomes blissful and also causes in the devotee pure bliss.By this Sakti he has the power of communicating atoms of this infinite bliss to his Associates (Parasadas/Nitya-siddhas) and his devotees.Radha,who is Lord's eternal consort and greatest bhakta is represented as the highest form his Hladini Sakti.It must be noted in this connexion that the Svarupa-Sakti is supposed take two forms,namely1)the Svarupa,which refers to the Lord himself,and 2)Svarupa-Vaibhava,which includes his Associates/nitya-siddhas/,his residence etc.which are thus parts or functions of himself. Although this is the principal classification of the Saktis (''kindergarten stuff'' as Nitai[member of this forum] somewhere said) they are said to be infinite in number and all of them are presented as wives of the Lord.As such they are distinctive deities,having name,form and personality.'

Question:

1) What is the correct sanscrit word to differentiate the sakti of the eternal consorts (GOD female aspects, saktis - e.g. Radharani, Revati, Lakshmi-devi, Sita-devi etc.) of the respective vishnu-tattva GOD male aspects (Krishna, Balarama, Ramacandra, Vishnu etc.) from the the sakti of the nitya siddha jivas (eternal children of God as Hanuman, Kumaras, Sukadeva Gosvami, Manjaris e.g. Srila Prabhupada's svarup aspect as manjari etc. ?

Thanks for your feedback.

Regards,
Frodo
jiva - Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:14:31 +0530
I am not aware of any sanskrit term for such a thing.

By the way,Krsna and Balarama are not Visnu-tattva .

with respect,
Guest - Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:18:48 +0530
Jiva,

No problem, I will ask someone else. :-)

It should be clear for anyone that eternally in the sakti-tattva category - nitya-siddhas in the category of GOD and nitya-siddhas in the category of children of God exists.

All jivas or liberated jivas (nitya siddha jivas) are eternally in the category of children of God and can never become an aspect of God.

Radharani's/Hladini-sakti expansions are not all the same as this wuold mean that all are aspects of Radharani which is obviously untrue.

Radharani's expansions should be divided in nitya siddha GOD aspects and nitya siddha jivas.

No jiva which has ever had a material body in the material world can be a nitya siddha GOD aspect in any conciousness state as those jivas are eternally children of God independently of their eternal rasa to God!

I amn wondering why you say that Krishna and Balarama are not in the category of vishnu-tattva as Vishnu is an expansion of Lord Krishna.

Kind regards,
Frodo
jiva - Sun, 09 Mar 2003 15:39:41 +0530
QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 3 2003, 01:48 AM)

All jivas or liberated jivas (nitya siddha jivas) are eternally in the category of children of God and can never become an aspect of God.

I amn wondering why you say that Krishna and Balarama are not in the category of vishnu-tattva as Vishnu is an expansion of Lord Krishna.


Frodo,
I hope that you will forgive me if I only answer briefly to a few points in your last post.

Gaudiyas make a distinction between two types of resident in Goloka or Nitya-Vrndavana.The Gopas and Gopis etc.belong to the higher category,technically called 'Isvara Koti' (nitya-siddhas),the rest fall under the category known as 'jiva Koti'(sadhana-siddhas).Those who come under the former category are select-few who infact,represent a mode of the operation of svarupa-sakti of the Lord e.g. the parikaras or retinues of the Lord,who are eternal and resemble Him in all respects such as in prakrti,vesa and lila.But,those belonging the category of jiva-koti are privileged few who reach the highest state through the successive development of Sadhana-bhakti of Raganuga-type.Such jivas attain the position of eternal attendants of the Lord.

In ''Jaiva Dharma'',Chapter Fifteen,Bhaktivinoda writes:

''Babaji:cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krsna.Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects.The jiva is not nitya-siddha;he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha.The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas;they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha,who is personification of the cit-sakti.''

Regarding Visnu-tattva,Bhaktivinoda continue:

''Lord Krsna,presiding over each of His potencies,manifests His various expansions correspondingly.Presiding over cit potency,He manifests His Krsna form and that of Lord Narayana,the Lord of Vaikuntha.Presiding over His jiva-sakti,He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja.Becoming situated in His Maya-sakti,He manifests the three Visnu forms-Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi,and Garbhadakasayi.''

In Krsna as the Bhagavan,there is full display of all the divine Saktis.As such,therefore,Krsna,as the highest embodiement of the divine Ananda or Madhurya is superior to such 'lower' expressions of the deity as Visnu in whom only the aspect of divine might is displayed.

I trust our intelligent audience can understand this.

With respect,
Guest_Frodo - Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:46:18 +0530
Jiva,

Thanks for your explanation. I have couple of clarification to make here:

1) Maha-Maya energy of Krishna is not a correct siddhantic truth:
Regarding your phrase "Becoming situated in His Maya-sakti,He manifests the three Visnu forms-Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi,and Garbhadakasayi.'' I want to give you the real meaning of who actually Maha-Maya is and why the Gaudiya saints all more or less kept this lie in their sastris explanation:

Yoga-Maya is indeed an expansion of Srimati Radharani, therefore Yoga-Maya is an eternal consort of Sri Krishna. Maha-Maya is not an expansion of Srimati Radharani expanded for the purport to keep the jivas prisoned in their asuric belief to not surrender to God but Maha-Maya is actually the 1st fallen angel from Vaikuntha-dham, yes actually all contitioned jivas in the material universe have all been first in Vaikuntha, therefore they all have an original svarup, and throught their heart enviousness, they have fallen down to the material world that Lord Vishnu had to create for them.
Maha-Maya is the first fallen angel, therefore the weakest being ever existing, that tried to be known as Maya-devi or expansion of Yoga-Maya so she could prevent to be discovered as the 1st fallen angel.
The reason for Maya's fall in the material world is her enviousness vs. Vishnu's eternal consort Srimati Lakshmi-devi as Maya (who is actually a naga) wants to be a consort of Vishnu-deva and is furious to have to accept the truth that she will never have any chance to have Vishnu-deva as her husband.

This is actually also the reason why many so-called Vaishnavas try to think they can get the gopi-/manjari svarup of the nitya-siddha they have been associating with with the main purport to become a gopi and have Lord Krishna as consort. But this is actually impossible because all eternal consorts of any God male aspect (Krishna, Rama, Vishnu etc) are eternally all defined and noone with an eternal naga-svarup (as most of the conditional souls in human form have on our planet; especially Maya-naga and her eternal weak husband too, Kali-naga) can become a consort of Krishna or Vishnu etc. as their eternal svarup will be fully-activated as prior to their fall when they return back to Vaikuntha (not to Goloka).

It is very important to see how great the Vaishnava acharyas are to continue to preach the siddhanta in a way Maha-Maya-naga is happy to be teached so now, at the end of the darkness time, all asuras, under Gauragan's control, can be purified too, so Lord Nityananda's phropecy to have all jivas liberated will finally be manifested!

Again as summary, independently if you are having association to a real nitya-siddha jiva from Goloka Vrindavan having a gopi or manjari svarup, if the jiva associating with him is a fallen jiva from Vaikunta than that fallen jiva has already a defined svarup (mostly a naga svarup for humans) which will not be upgradable to a gopi svarup as the eternal residence for that naga- svarup is to live on Vishnu's planet and not to go to Krishna's goloka planet.

The story with the fallen angels from Vaikuntha is 100% real, all pure Vaishnavas-/nitya siddhas as Bhaktivinod Thakur, 6 Gosvamis, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, Srila Prabhupada etc. knew this but were all guided by Lord Gauranga to preach in that way that no fallen angels from Vaikunta exists as by doing so all asuric fallen angels would finally be able to be purified too which is currently in ourdays going on, dear jiva!

All the best for your future!

Sincerely,
Frodo




' I
jiva - Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:09:07 +0530
Frodo,

Where is your evidence? You could be right, but so far you have offered no proof. Have the evidence to back it up, please.

with respect,
Mina - Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:31:49 +0530
The idea of fallen angels has nothing to do with Hinduism or Vaishnavism. It is a purely Judeo-Christian concept. Mahamaya is the Lord's external potency and is not jiva-tattva. She has always been beyond the contamination that the jiva's are susceptible to.

There is no evidence in any sastra or writings of the acharyas for any nitya-siddhas ever falling from Vaikuntha or Goloka. The jivas that are conditioned by the tri-gunas are from the marginal energy, or tatastha, which is how they can become under the influence of Mayamaya in the first place.
Kishalaya - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:11:50 +0530
Tatastha shakti is susceptible to maya but exactly *when* the jiva came under
maya is not known. Shastra says "anaadi". Taken in its literal sense, it means
that this "when" does not exist. The conditioned jiva was always in maya.

It can also be seen that shastra does not dwelve too much into this -- this is
an indication that such a discussion is futile, useless, and serves no purpose.
Guest_kailasa - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:14:36 +0530
***There is no evidence in any sastra or writings of the acharyas for any nitya-siddhas ever falling from Vaikuntha or Goloka


There is evidence in sastra

There is evidence acharyas

Hare Krisna
Guest - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:15:45 +0530
***Shastra says "anaadi

Yes. Anadi bekause in spiritual woprld no time.

Hare Krisna.
Guest_Frodo - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:38:50 +0530
Jiva, Ananga, Kishalaya,

Eternal wisdom is available throughout many spiritual paths.
The fallen angel aspect is apparently not coming directly from the Vaishnava path although as already mentioned before, all real Vaishnava acharyas knew that but were all directly instructed by Lord Gauranga to not write in down in clear words.

Vedic slokas have a hidden aspect inherent whihc is only accessible for nitya siddhas or pure instrument of God. The aspect of the fallen angel is there but currently all of you do NOT have access to it as you all belong to the fallen angel category!

About Maha-Maya again here to explain that Maha-Maya is not a nitya-siddha or an expansion of Srimati Radharani or expansion of Yogamaya. Maha-Maya is also not the external energy of Bhagavan Krishna here to cover the conciousness of the jivas who want to be covered. No, Maha-Maya is the 1st fallen angel with the name Maya and her eternal svarup is the one of a serpent (naga svarup). As soon as Maya-naga is purified from her deep enviousness vs. Srimati Lakshmi-devi and Lord Vishnu, she will also be able to return to Vaikuntha and serve Lord Vishnu and Srimati Lakshmi-devi in her eternal dasya rasa.

Maya-naga will ETERNALLY be having only that naga-svarup on Vaikuntha-loka with NO possibilites to upgrade her rasa to madhurya-rasa or to get another svarup similar to a goddess of furtune or a gopi!

This is the truth, my friends, sastras are accessible to people with pure consciuosness and is impossible to be understood by fallen angels.

With respect for your upcoming tme.

Regards,
Frodo





Sast
Guest_kailasa - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:37:34 +0530
***NO possibilites to upgrade her rasa to

possible
Guest_kailasa - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:38:49 +0530
***impossible to be understood by fallen angels

Go my belowed in hell. It is righth?
Mina - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:11:16 +0530
Just out of curiosity, Frodo - where did you get this fallen angel thesis? Is it something you came up with on your own or did you get it from someone else?
Guest_Frodo - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:09:43 +0530
Ananga,

Yes, there is NO WAY for fallen angels with an eternal dasya rasa vs. Lord Vishnu-deva and Srimati Lakshm-devi and an eternal Vaikunta-svarup, mostly a naga-svarup (at least for most of the fallen angels in human forms) to upgrade their rasa to madhurya or their svarup to a gopi or goddess of furtune svarup.

It is Lord Gaurnage Himself that provides me the wisdom on the fallen angel truth so others are correctly informed.

In addition to mention here for you is that for this reason nitya siddhas/pure loving angels/devas are incarnated on planet bhumi to provide guidance to all beings, incl. fallen angels.

Sincerely,
Frodo
jiva - Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:33:58 +0530
Frodo,

''Process of speaking in spiritual circles is to say something uphold by the scriptures.One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back it up what he is saying.''(BG,17.15,Bhaktivedanta Purport)

Even if one starts a new branch of the sampradaya,the justification for new understanding must be firmly rooted in the sastra.Baladeva Vidyabhusana had to write his commentary on Vedanta-sutra,Sri Govinda-bhasya,just because of this fact.

The conclusion is that Gaudiyas cannot allow spontaneous new ideas to appear in their siddhanta without seeking solid sastric support for such conclusions.

Quote Frodo:'' It is Lord Gaurnage Himself that provides me the wisdom on the fallen angel truth so others are correctly informed.''

Did He mention ''trinad api sunicena...'' verse ?

with respect,
Radhapada - Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:51:04 +0530
Where is the evidence jivas are fallen angels and that they fall from the spiritual world? Till authoritive evidence is shown, it should be regarded as a bunch of speculation.

Authoritive evidence from:
Writings of the Vrndavana Goswamis, Narottama Das Thakur, Sri Visvanath, Baladeva Vidyabhusana.
Mina - Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:46:53 +0530
QUOTE(Guest_Frodo @ Mar 10 2003, 11:39 AM)

It is Lord Gaurnage Himself that provides me the wisdom on the fallen angel truth so others are correctly informed.


We have no problem accepting that Mahaprabhu confers wisdom on devotees. In your case, Frodo, we are still waiting to see you display some. What I recommend is that you seek the mercy of Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Srimati Radharani, then once They bestow the gift of prema on you, that you share some of that precious liquid (rasa) with the rest of us.

As I said to you before, it would benefit you to read through the topics here to get a feel for the mood before you jump in and start posting whatever suits your fancy. That way, your ideas might be less fanciful and more interesting to the other members here.