Chaitanya doesn't save every soul of Kali-Yuga. -

I keep on remembering a famous Iskon quote that Chaitanya desires give prema to every soul of Kali-Yuga. Or something like that. Can someone quote that.

First of all this is untrue. Some demonaic souls of Kali Yuga will never want to be a devotee whatsoever. They have committed unlimited Vaisnava aparadha. Why would Chaitanya want to give prema to these souls? It makes no sense to me. I understand that He has unlimited mercy. However this doesn't mean He is going to give prema to every soul in the universe.

The good and evil of this world are temporary manifestations. Both the living entities and the desire of the Lord to bless them with prema are eternal. Therefore, sooner or later the desire of the Lord will be fulfilled. When assessing a befitting object for His mercy, He does not consider the temporary situation of the living entity. In His divine love-laden madness, He cannot perceive but the good in everyone. Therefore He is very magnanimous in nature.

"The good and evil of this world are temporary manifestations."

But evil is a permanent creation of Visnu. Did he not create inherent evil souls?

I also find very ironic that Chaitanya has mercy on every soul wishing to shower prema on them however Krsna has created a world filled with horrible pain and misery for no other reason than for the jiva to surrender to him?! Why create an opportunity for so much unnecessary pain and misery. Seems like a huge imperfection to me. And then there is the huge gap between those eternal souls of the spiritual world who enjoy unfathomable and infinte bliss and the eternal souls of the material universes who get to experience unfathomable pain and misery.

Of course the creation of the universe is inconceivable to most people. However this doesn't mean there are not very exact and good answers to this.

QUOTE

"The good and evil of this world are temporary manifestations."

But evil is a permanent creation of Visnu. Did he not create inherent evil souls?

No. Soul is not inherently good or evil, it is beyond the two. The duality of good and evil is imposed upon the soul by material nature. Aside this, Vishnu did not create souls. Souls are eternal.

QUOTE

I also find very ironic that Chaitanya has mercy on every soul wishing to shower prema on them however Krsna has created a world filled with horrible pain and misery for no other reason than for the jiva to surrender to him?! Why create an opportunity for so much unnecessary pain and misery. Seems like a huge imperfection to me. And then there is the huge gap between those eternal souls of the spiritual world who enjoy unfathomable and infinte bliss and the eternal souls of the material universes who get to experience unfathomable pain and misery.

Each living entity is responsible for the suffering and enjoyment he experiences. It arises from their past deeds only. In this connection, Ananta Das Pandit narrates a story in his commentary on the first verse of Sri Siksastakam:

Once a preceptor told his disciple to bring some fire for cooking from a nearby village. The disciple went out to look for fire, but he could not find it, so he asked his teacher: "Where should I go to get this fire?"
The preceptor thought: "What a good-for-nothing, he cannot even bring some fire!", and angrily told the disciple: "Go and bring it from hell!".
The disciple was a simple soul and he went to the realm of Yamaraja, eager to follow his guru's order. Yama Maharaja, the lord of hell, was unable to stay calm when he saw the determination of the dedicated disciple and he took him to his own realm. On the order of his teacher, the disciple asked Yama Maharaja for some fire there.
Yamaraja said: "O child! There is no facility for making fire here! Surely, many people are burned in hellfire here at every moment, but they brought that fire along themselves. It was not here before they brought it for their own punishment!"

In this regard we may consider that the living entities are parts of the Lord Himself. We tend to think of Him as unjust when we perceive ourselves as separate from Him. However, He is free to play with Himself as He desires. A person who understands this will easily extinguish the burning forest fire of material existence and rise above being affected by an experience of suffering and joy.

It should also be understood that there was never a time when this world was created for the first time. Just as the Lord Himself is eternal, so this world and the living entities are eternal and have existed since beginningless time. The Absolute Truth on account of its own inherent all-inclusiveness includes both varieties of duality and that which beyond duality. The complete whole cannot be blamed for being a complete whole in which everything exists since eternity.

"Each living entity is responsible for the suffering and enjoyment he experiences."
"However, He is free to play with Himself as He desires."

That's obviously true but it doesn't take away the fact that Krishna created the opportunity for suffering. For someone who is supposed to be perfectly just this is not very just is it? Anyway, if he knows ahead of time that jivas are going to suffer unimaginable pain it makes no sense for him to create the material universe. Why does he feel the need to put jivas into the material world and put the gopi's as his eternal companions. Why the difference?

"No. Soul is not inherently good or evil, it is beyond the two. The duality of good and evil is imposed upon the soul by material nature. Aside this, Vishnu did not create souls. Souls are eternal."

Ok so evil is an imposition on the soul from material nature. That still makes evil a creation of God.

Philosophically speaking, material pleasure and pain are illusory. It is only due to identification with the body, senses and subtle body. Gopis are eternal servants, and so could anyone else achieve status on the same level if one develops prema through bhakti bhajan to Radha-Krsna. This life in material existence consisting of Brahma's lifetime is a blink of the eye compared to eternity.

The quality of justness is desirable because it is a quality present in Lord Krishna
and in an infinite magnitude and which is considered by Him to be desirable.
There is NO other benchmark and NO independent one either to consider
justness to be desirable.

If the Supreme Lord had a desire that "looting and plundering" was a desirable
quality, we would have happily postulated that indeed "looting and plundering"
were desirable qualities, ethical axioms, and would have unendingly
philosophised about the need for "looting and plundering".

It is because our buddhi is covered, that we consider good qualities or
goodness to have an independent existence. That is an ontological
contradiction. If *everything* is dependent on the Absolute, then so also the
concept of goodness and what is good and what is bad. The notion of goodness
cannot have an independent existence. Or to put it the other way, what is
considered good by Sri Krishna is *by definition* good. Period.

In out limited abilities to percieve (and envy), we are not able to digest the
simple statement that The Whole of Existence is Sri Krishna's Lila. It is meant for
His Enjoyment. The Aatmaaraama and Aaptakaama (Self Satisfied) has brought
out His Pleasure Potency from whithin Himself for Enjoyment which has
manifested this Whole Existence solely For His Pleasure. This is the standard of
justness, goodness or whatever. Whatever contributes to His Lila is good. Period.
In this scheme of things some are eternally liberated and some have been
eternally bound, but can get liberated, if they want.

The feelings that we have about what consitutes good, just and whatever is
because we are a part and parcel of Sri Krishna and what He feels to be good
and just, we will also feel naturally from within. However, envy and other defects
cover any such spontaneous knowledge in varying degrees.
The more covering there is, the more perverted is ones sense of goodness.
It is also due to the above reasons that although we may have some traces of
knowledge about goodness, we are unable to find its source and postulate that
goodness is a kind of universal truth.

It is the Lord's Wish that He will not interfere with a jiva's decision as to what
course of action he will take. That is just and good. Period. There may be many
secondary and circumstantial arguments as to why such a wish of the Lord is
just and good, but the primary argument is that Sri Krishna Himself feels that
this is just and good.

Nor has He *created* the eternnally liberated and the hitherto eternally bound
jivas. They simply existed without a beginning. For those bound jivas who wish
to come to the Lord, the Lord acts, solely out of His infinite and causeless
Kindness. Who is to say, to what lengths He has not gone to, only to bring us
back. Why do we say "Why has Krishna kept us in maya for such an infinitely
long time"? Why instead we don't say "Lord, You have toiled for me for an
infinitely long time only for my sake, but such a fool I am that I have shamefully
kicked away every opportunity, and then I cry hoarse that You are keeping me in
maya and do not want me to get liberated. Oh Lord, even if I throw the vilest of
abuses towards You, You will still endlessly think about me, and how to get me
out of maya." Why is it that we think that we have been in maya and doing
all that she has to say meekly. Why don't we think that The Supremely Kind
Lord has prompted us at the opposite end just as maya does? Why this one
sided argument. Why do we NOT want to say that maya and the Supreme Lord
can only prompt us, but it is I, only I, who takes the decision to execute a right
or wrong task?!

In our odd, less than 100 years of life, we seem to have found
the meaning of goodness and justness. On what basis do we make
statements like, -- Krishna is bad because He does not want to give liberation to
everybody and do away with maya; Krishna is bad because he does not come
to me inspite of praying to Him for 4 years; Krishna is bad because He does not
give us prema.

The reality is -- Krishna is Good because He does not usurp our freedom to
decide. Has it ever occured to us, that by making us work to get out of maya and
get prema for Him, He is giving us chance at every moment to decide whether
we want to be in maya or with Him. It is very easy to say, "Now I have decided
that I want to be with the Lord eternally." However after 20 days of ecastacy,
we start finding faults. Service to the Lord is not easy. Better decide now than
be sorry later.

In our envious mood, we think that a gopi is having a good time under
moonlight, clean natural surroundings, and the most Handsome Boy for a
boyfriend. Life could not be better. Is it so? What about the humiliation in front
of the society. Does a gopi not feel shame? What about running with the blood
drenched feet while stomping through a forest of cactii just to answer Krishna's
call? Do eternal associates of the Lord not feel any pain? What about the
throat getting parched under a midday sun during May Vrindavan, when the
feeling of separation from Krishna does not let her drink a drop of water? Does a
gopi not feel thirst? Krishna is not a fool to give His Heart to someone who is out
for a good time with Him.

The eternally liberated associates of the Lord are worshippable, not because
They are eternally liberated, but because They bear uncountable number of
personal miseries and inconveniences, even for His miniscule Pleasure. It is
because they will sacrifice everything, lock stock and barrel, for Krishna, that
they are in KrishnaPrema, not the other way round. Let us contemplate for a
moment, how many of us are actually willing to be in KrishnaPrema?

Kishalaya your answer does not really answer the question other than saying that everything is good because it comes from Krishna. Under your logic it is good that murders, rapes, abortions, and cow slaughter are all good because they come from Krishna. I don't think that is true. Also, a Gopi's pain is not the same as material pain we experience. Completely different things.

1. Everything is not good because because it comes from Krishna. Rather
Everything that is ***considered good by Krishna*** is good. Krishna does not
consider murder, loot, rape etc. to be good. Therefore they are not good.
There can be no answer beyond that since only The Absolute is the final
authority. It is futile to seek further standards, since there exist none.
I can personally assure you, that I have been tormented by this diseased
question for a very long time.

Loot, murder, rape, slaughter are ***not*** Krishna's creation. They are
entirely ours. What we have sown, so shall we reap, unless we correct
ourselves.

2. As for the second part, try to prick a gopi (or for that matter Krishna) with
a thorn, and you will know what kind of pain they feel

I can see objections to the previous post "If Krishna considers murder, loot,
rape, slaughter etc. to be bad, why is He facilitating (i.e providing opportunity to
the jivas to do) such things through His Lila etc.". The answer to this is The
Kind Lord through His absolutely stainless judgement has decided that it is not
good and just that the freedom that the jivas enjoy be curbed. Now it is up to
the jiva to make use of that freedom. Some people say The Lord should not
give the jivas such freedom, but who are we to question the stainless
judgement of The Absolute. There are two things here.
1. Stainless Judgement - The judgement of the Lord cannot be understood
properly by those stained by material affliction since our intelligence is
severely crippled by anarthas.
2. The Absolute - The Lord's decision is by definition right, since He is the basis
of everything, He is also the basis of rightness and wrongness.

As for the second, let us not try to minimize the Glory of the Lord's Associates
by classifying and associating names to The Feelings and Sufferings that These
Exalted Souls willingly and enthusiastically bring upon Themselves just so that
Sri Hari can get Pleasure and for NO other self motivated reasons. Again what do
we know about "transendental" pain that we can shrug it off as "The pain that
gopis feel are transendental, not material." Is it that simple, that it can be
summarised in one small sentence. What I understand with my small insignificant
understanding is that the pain one feels on account of one's selfish reasons are
material and the pain one feels on account of providing service to Sri Hari and for
no other reason is transendental. The result of working for oneself is nothing but
more pain, however the result of rendering pure devotional service to Sri Hari is
KrishnaPrema whose ananda is such that if the bliss of brahmakaivalya
(impersonal liberation) is multiplied a hundred thousand million times, that bliss
will pale into insignificance. This is what I have understood from the
All Kind Vaishnavas.

Further, the Glory of the Associates of the Lord do not stop here. They will
ceaselessly continue to do devotional service to the Lord irrespective of
whether they have KrishnaPrema or not. For them KrishnaPrema is the Kind
Prasad of the Lord, not the actual impetus for their service.This is the litmus test.
The sole motivation for their life is service to Sri Hari, not even KrishnaPrema.
"If the Lord wants me to be a demon I will be a demon, if the Lord wants me
to be a gopi, I will be a gopi". This kind of sacrifice is unimaginable. These days
words like "gopi" have become cheap. It is not at all appropriate to refer to
These Param Aatmaas in a mundane context.

QUOTE(Kishalaya @ Mar 10 2003, 08:03 AM)

I can see objections to the previous post "If Krishna considers murder, loot,
rape, slaughter etc. to be bad, why is He facilitating (i.e providing opportunity to
the jivas to do) such things through His Lila etc.". The answer to this is The
Kind Lord through His absolutely stainless judgement has decided that it is not
good and just that the freedom that the jivas enjoy be curbed. Now it is up to
the jiva to make use of that freedom. Some people say The Lord should not
give the jivas such freedom, but who are we to question the stainless
judgement of The Absolute. There are two things here.
1. Stainless Judgement - The judgement of the Lord cannot be understood
properly by those stained by material affliction since our intelligence is
severely crippled by anarthas.
2. The Absolute - The Lord's decision is by definition right, since He is the basis
of everything, He is also the basis of rightness and wrongness.

As for the second, let us not try to minimize the Glory of the Lord's Associates
by classifying and associating names to The Feelings and Sufferings that These
Exalted Souls willingly and enthusiastically bring upon Themselves just so that
Sri Hari can get Pleasure and for NO other self motivated reasons. Again what do
we know about "transendental" pain that we can shrug it off as "The pain that
gopis feel are transendental, not material." Is it that simple, that it can be
summarised in one small sentence. What I understand with my small insignificant
understanding is that the pain one feels on account of one's selfish reasons are
material and the pain one feels on account of providing service to Sri Hari and for
no other reason is transendental. The result of working for oneself is nothing but
more pain, however the result of rendering pure devotional service to Sri Hari is
KrishnaPrema whose ananda is such that if the bliss of brahmakaivalya
(impersonal liberation) is multiplied a hundred thousand million times, that bliss
will pale into insignificance. This is what I have understood from the
All Kind Vaishnavas.

For Kishalaya:
Sri Vilapa Kusumanjali of Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami with the patha of Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja, page 4

hä hä prabhu koro kåpä karunär sägar;
michä mäyä jäle tanu dohiche ämär

“O Lord, ocean of mercy! My body is scorching in the
false network of illusion!”
Which body is this? This is the sädhaka body – the manjari body
cannot scorch in the net of mäyä. This body is not a mundane body,
it is a body of love, but he says so out of humility.

Jaiva Dharma Chap 16
I may add, that none of these answers are logically adequate.

QUOTE

For now I will ask this
question: The individual soul is pure spirit.   Why does the
calamity of residing in the material world fall upon him?"   The
saintly babaji smiled and recited this verse:
"Covering them with gross and subtle material forms, chaining
them with the modes of nature, and pulling them with the painful
ropes of karma, Maya leads to Svargaloka and to hell the criminal
souls who, forgetting their own spiritual welfare, have turned from
Krsna and become intent on their own happiness."
In Goloka, which is manifested by Lord Baladeva, and in
Vaikuntha, which is manifested by Lord Sankarsana, numberless
individual souls are eternal associates of the Lord.   There they
taste the nectar of worshipping and serving the Lord.   They are
always inclined to spiritual things. They seek the happiness of
worshipping the Lord. They are always eager to serve the Lord.
Empowered by the Lord's jiva-sakti and cit-sakti, they always have
great spiritual strength. They never touch Maya. They do not even
know that a potency called maya-sakti exists.   Staying in the
middle of the circle of the spiritual world, they are very far away
from Maya.   They always swim in the ocean of pleasure that is
worshipping and serving the Lord. They know nothing of suffering,
material   pleasure or selfish pleasure.   They are   eternally
liberated.   Love for the Lord is their entire life.   What are
grief, death, and fear they do not know. When He glances at Maya,
Lord Karanodakasayi Visnu sends numberless atomic spirit souls to
the material world. Because they are now on Maya's side, the many
creations of Maya now enter the pathway of their eyes. These souls
have all the qualities of the soul I have already described.
However, because they are atomic in size, from the border of matter
and spirit (tatastha) they must place their glance on either the
spiritual world or the material world. The individual souls are
very weak.   How can this not be? These souls did not obtain the
spiritual strength that comes from the Lord's mercy, mercy that
comes from properly serving Him. That is why these souls develop a
desire to enjoy the pleasures that Maya offers. These souls enter
Maya's world, and there Maya imprisons them for what seems an
eternity.   When these souls again turn to spiritual life and
service to the Lord, they can attain the Lord's mercy, which will
give them spiritual strength.   Then they can return to the
spiritual world. Baba, I am very unfortunate. I have forgotten
that I am eternally a servant of Lord Krsna. I have entered Maya's
world, and here Maya keeps me imprisoned. I have forgotten my own
spiritual welfare. I am very unfortunate!
Vrajanatha: O master, why did some souls leave the borderline
of matter and spirit and enter the world of Maya? Why did other
souls go to the spiritual world?
   Babaji: Lord Krsna's own qualities are present in a very small
degree in the individual spirit souls. Because Lord Krsna has free
will, so the individual souls eternally possess a small quantity of
free will also.   When that free will is used properly, the
individual soul is favourable to Krsna and turns toward Him.   When
the free will is misused, the soul is averse to Krsna and turns
away from Him. Then the soul tries to enjoy Maya. Puffed up with
petty pride, the soul thinks, "I am the enjoyer of matter."   Then
the pure spiritual form of the soul becomes covered by the five
kinds of ignorance that begin with illusion and false-ego. Thus it
is the proper or improper use of free will that bring us either
liberation or imprisonment in the material world.
Vrajanatha: Lord Krsna is supremely merciful. Why, then, did
He make the individual spirit souls so weak that they fall into
Maya's world?
   Babaji: As He is merciful, so Krsna is also playful. Desiring
many different kinds of pastimes with individual spirit souls in
many   different conditions of life, He created many exalted
conditions,   which culminate in 'maha-bhava'   great   ecstatic
spiritual love for the Lord., and He also created, with the help of
Sri Radha's expansion Maya, the degraded material conditions of
life,   which   reach their nadir in 'ahankara'   (the   soul's
misidentification with matter). In this way, by the influence of
Sri Radha there is the attainment of limitless transcendental
bliss, and by the influence of Maya there is a descent into the
lower depths.   The souls that thus enter Maya's abyss are not
interested in their own spiritual well-being. They are averse to
Lord Krsna and interested in their own selfish pleasure. Thus they
go down lower and lower. However, supremely merciful Lord Krsna
sends His own personal associates from His own spiritual world into
the material world to make these souls favourable to Him and to
lift them out of the abyss. In this way some of the fallen souls
gradually become elevated and eventually return to the spiritual
world, where they become eternal associates of the Lord.
Vrajanatha: Why must the individual souls suffer so the Lord
can enjoy pastimes like these?
Babaji: What should be said is this: It is by the great mercy
of the Lord that the individual souls have free will.   Why not
speak in that way? Inanimate matter is very lowly and unimportant
because it has no free will. It is because they have free will
that the individual souls can become masters of the world of
matter.   "Pain" and "pleasure" are two destinations the mind can
attain.   What you and I may call "pain", another person, who is
attached to it, may call "pleasure". All material pleasures bring
only pain at the end. They do not lead to anything but that.
Therefore a person attached to material pleasures becomes unhappy
at the end. When that unhappiness becomes very acute, the soul
begins to desire happiness that is not mixed with sufferings. From
that desire comes intelligence, and from that intelligence comes
the   spirit of inquiry.   From the spirit of inquiry   comes
association with saintly persons, from association with saintly
persons comes faith in spiritual life, and from faith in spiritual
life one becomes gradually elevated. In this way what began as
pain became at the end the giver of auspicious happiness. When it
is heated and burnished, impure gold becomes pure. In the same
way, when they suffer in Maya's material world, the impure souls
averse to Lord Krsna and yearning to enjoy maya become purified.
That this suffering turns into the giver of happiness is the mercy
of Lord Krsna. Therefore they who are far-sighted see that these
sufferings of the conditioned souls eventually bring auspicious
happiness. They who are short sighted cannot see that.   They see
only sufferings.
Vrajanatha: Although they may bring happiness at the end, for
the present the conditioned souls' sufferings are very painful.
Could not the all-powerful Lord invent a different path, one
without these sufferings?
Babaji: Lord Krsna enjoys many different kinds of wonderful
pastimes. This is one of His wonderful pastimes. A person who is
supremely independent can enjoy many different kinds of pastimes,
and this may be one of them. Why not? If the Lord has every kind
of pastime, then no pastime may be rejected. If one pastime is
substituted for another, then still some kind of troubles must be
expected.   Lord Krsna is the supreme person and the creator.
Everyone is subject to His will. If one person is subject to
another's will, is there not some difficulty in that?   If that
difficulty eventually leads to happiness, then it is no difficulty
at all.   Why do you say it is suffering and difficulty?   If to
expand Lord Krsna's pastimes the individual souls go through some
difficulties, the difficulties are only happiness.   Lord Krsna's
pastimes are naturally full of bliss. If an individual soul of his
own free will voluntarily leaves those pastimes and enters the
world of Maya and accepts the sufferings there, then if anyone is
at fault it is the individual soul who is at fault. Krsna is not
at fault.
Vrajanatha: In that situation, what is the harm that Lord
Krsna does not give the soul free will? Krsna knows everything.
Therefore Krsna knows if a certain soul will misuse his free will
and bring suffering to himself. In that situation it is cruel of
Krsna to give such a person free will. Is it not?
   Babaji: Free will is a precious jewel. In the material world
there are many inanimate material objects. None of them were given
the jewel of free will. That is why inanimate objects are lowly
and unimportant.   If he had not been given free will, the
individual soul would be lowly and unimportant, just like inanimate
objects.   The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit.
Whatever qualities spirit has, the soul must also have. Free will
is one of the qualities of spirit. Spirit can never be separated
from its eternal qualities. Therefore, as a tiny particle of
spirit, the soul must have free will. It is because they have free
will that the individual souls are superior to inanimate matter and
are the masters of the material world. The souls, who all have
free will, are all the dear servants of Lord Krsna.   When they
misuse that free will and enter the world of maya, merciful Krsna
weeps to see how they are suffering. Eager to deliver them, He
follows the individual souls into the material world. Ware that the
souls will not see His nectarean pastimes in the material world, He
brings   His inconceivable pastimes there.   Seeing   that   the
conditioned souls do not understand His pastimes, he descends to
Navadvipa and teaches them about His form, qualities, and pastimes
and about His own holy name, which is the best way for spiritual
advancement, and He also teaches them by acting the role of His won
devotee.   Baba, how can you place the blame on merciful Krsna?
Even though His mercy is fathomless, you remain unfortunate and
very pathetic.
Vrajanatha: Is the maya-sakti then out enemy and the cause of
our misfortune? Krsna is all-powerful and all-knowing. If Krsna
had driven Maya far away, then the individual souls would not have
to suffer.
Babaji:   Maya is the reflection of the Lord's internal
potency.   She is a perverted manifestation of the Lord's pure
spiritual potency.   She purifies the criminal rebellious souls.
She gives them a way to reform themselves. Maya is a maidservant
of Lord Krsna. She punishes the souls averse to Lord Krsna.   She
gives them medicine and cures them. By forgetting "I am eternally
a servant of Lord Krsna", the individual souls commit a crime.
They are at fault. It is because of this crime that the witch Maya
punishes them. These criminals souls are sent to the prison that
is the world of Maya. As it is out of kindness that a king sends a
criminal to prison, so it is out of kindness that Lord Krsna sends
these criminal souls to the prison of the material world and placed
Maya there as the warden.
Vrajanatha: If the material world is a prison, then what are
the shackles?
Babaji: Maya's shackles are of three kinds: 1. shackles made
of the mode of goodness, 2. shackles made of the mode of passion,
and 3. shackles made of the mode of ignorance. The criminal souls
are bound with these shackles in different appropriate ways. Some
souls may be bound with goodness shackles, others with passion
shackles, and others with ignorance shackles. All are shackled.
There may be golden shackles, silver shackles or iron shackles.
Shackles made of different elements do not cease to be shackles.
Vrajanatha: How can the shackles of Maya bind the soul, which
is an atomic particle of spirit?
Babaji: Material things cannot touch spiritual things.   When
an individual soul gets the idea "I am the enjoyer of Maya", the
subtle coverings of material ego is placed around him. Covered in
this way by subtle matter, his feet are bound with Maya's shackles.
The individual souls covered with material ego in the mode of
goodness are the demigods residing in the higher material planets.
Their feet are bound with the golden shackles of the mode of
goodness.   The individual souls covered with material ego in the
mode of passion have a nature that is a combination of the natures
of the demigods and the human beings. Their feet are bound with
the silver shackles of the mode of passion. The individual souls
covered with material ego in the mode of ignorance are intoxicated
by material pleasures. Their feet are bound with the iron shackles
of the mode of ignorance. None of these shackled souls can leave
the prison. All are troubled by many kinds of sufferings.

QUOTE(Guest @ May 17 2003, 07:12 AM)

For Kishalaya:
Sri Vilapa Kusumanjali of Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami with the patha of Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja, page 4

hä hä prabhu koro kåpä karunär sägar;
michä mäyä jäle tanu dohiche ämär

“O Lord, ocean of mercy! My body is scorching in the
false network of illusion!”
Which body is this? This is the sädhaka body – the manjari body
cannot scorch in the net of mäyä. This body is not a mundane body,
it is a body of love, but he says so out of humility.

Dear Whoever,

I am not trying to establish philosophical conclusions as to what kinds of nerves different kinds of bodies have. When I hear that Sri Raamachandra felt miserably anguished on seeing Srimati Sitaaji's bare foot bleeing with thorn pricks (when they were proceeding for vanvaasa), I think both the pain was genuine and so was the cosmic anguish.

Actually I have something more to say, so I have edited the post. One may quote that it is one of the qualities of Sri Krishna that not even a hint of pain touches His Body. However we do see that in some cases Sri Hari has so profoundly played the part of a human such as Him getting cut and bruised in the battle of Mahaabhaarata; Sri Gauraanga getting stomach indigestion; Lord Srinivaasa, while trying to save a cow, takes on the blow of the axe and thus starts to bleed profusely. Was Sri Hari merely acting? or was it genuine? One of the explanations I have heard is that although Sri Hari is beyond all misery - He is sachidaananda vigraha, He may enact, through His own free will, such pastimes to receive the transcendental bliss of the concern shown towards Him by His devotees. Another explanation I have heard is that it does not matter if they actually do not feel any pain -- they may not be aware that they have a bhaava svaroopa deha -- still they are willing to do service knowing fully well that they (thinking themselves to be ordinary) may be put in extreme misery. The thorn may be turned into a soft flower however it is the attitude that counts.

In any case, the point was that the devotees of the Lord get His mercy for genuine reasons, and it is not the case that if somebody is a nitya mukta, that person has been given the presidential suite by Krishna whimsically.

SB 9.4.65:

ye daragara-putrapta-
pranan vittam imam param
hitva mam saranam yatah
katham tams tyaktum utsahe

Since pure devotees give up their homes, wives, children, relatives, riches and even their lives simply to serve Me, without any desire for material improvement in this life or in the next, how can I give up such devotees at any time?

Kishalaya

QUOTE(Guest1 @ Jun 1 2003, 11:23 PM)

Jaiva Dharma Chap 16
I may add, that none of these answers are logically adequate.
................

In these fringe topics, everybody has his own answers to satisfy himself. I find the traditional answer (anaadi baddha) without pages upon pages of explanation to be THE logical answer. This is a fact of existence i.e. some jivas have existed in bondage since eternity and the muktas have been in liberation from eternity. Krishna has absolutely nothing to do with "creating" this status quo. He manifests the material creation because this is the only environment where such jivas (baddha) have any hope of progress. Needless to say he does not force Himself or His bhakti on anybody.

Kishalaya

QUOTE

Krishna has absolutely nothing to do with "creating" this status quo.

Even if we accept that statement as true, but it's not because sastra says different, Krishna is still the supreme witness of every action. Also in BG Krishna says not a blade of grass moves without my approval.

QUOTE(Guest @ Jul 18 2003, 01:51 PM)

QUOTE

Krishna has absolutely nothing to do with "creating" this status quo.

Even if we accept that statement as true, but it's not because sastra says different, Krishna is still the supreme witness of every action. Also in BG Krishna says not a blade of grass moves without my approval.

Really? Where would that be in Bhagavad Gita? I must have been reading with my eyes closed to have missed such a classic phrase.

Look, Krishna has nothing to do with creating the bondage of the jiva at one point in time, because the bondage is beginningless, and consequently was never created. So in other words, neither Krishna nor anyone else has anything to do with creating it.

"But who created beginningless eternity?" And who created a mind which thinks that everything must be created at one point in time?

QUOTE

Really? Where would that be in Bhagavad Gita? I must have been reading with my eyes closed to have missed such a classic phrase.

You are correct. I mistook Bhaktivedanta's BG 7.21 Purport as an actual verse. However there are verses with similar meaning to this 'blade of grass' in Chap 9 and 10.

QUOTE

Look, Krishna has nothing to do with creating the bondage of the jiva at one point in time, because the bondage is beginningless, and consequently was never created. So in other words, neither Krishna nor anyone else has anything to do with creating it.

"But who created beginningless eternity?" And who created a mind which thinks that everything must be created at one point in time?

And that doesn't have much to do with my argument.

So, what is your argument?