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All varieties of devotional topics that don't fit under the other sections of the forums. However, devotionally relevant topics, please - there are other boards for other topics.

On diksha, prasad and eating -



jijaji - Thu, 19 May 2005 20:01:30 +0530
Split from May I please have some advice? - Mod.
________________________________________


Yes traditional Gaudiya Gurus have said that one should not take prasadam at the Iskcon/GM temples, I won't quote the actual sources as to not cause a 'widespread panic'. I will say it does not come from just one traditional Gaudiya Guru alone, but is a general consensus it seems.

I know many here have heard the same.

It is also said by traditional Gaudiya's that Radha Krishna are not present in the dieties of Iskcon/GM, reason being because they do not have proper disksha in those institutions, so therefore the dieties are not properly installed without that proper channel. Tin Kori Baba had said this to some of his western diciples (friends of mine) many years ago..


namaskar,

jijaji
Madhava - Thu, 19 May 2005 22:09:34 +0530
QUOTE
Yes traditional Gaudiya Gurus have said that one should not take prasadam at the Iskcon/GM temples, I won't quote the actual sources as to not cause a 'widespread panic'. I will say it does not come from just one traditional Gaudiya Guru alone, but is a general consensus it seems.

Yes, that seems to be the general consensus indeed. The idea is that after proper diksha comes proper archana, and with proper archana come proper bhoga-offering. I touched the topic in December at Vraja Journal.
TarunGovindadas - Thu, 19 May 2005 23:21:36 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 19 2005, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE
Yes traditional Gaudiya Gurus have said that one should not take prasadam at the Iskcon/GM temples, I won't quote the actual sources as to not cause a 'widespread panic'. I will say it does not come from just one traditional Gaudiya Guru alone, but is a general consensus it seems.

Yes, that seems to be the general consensus indeed. The idea is that after proper diksha comes proper archana, and with proper archana come proper bhoga-offering. I touched the topic in December at Vraja Journal.




Thanks Madhava, good points. I really appreciate this "harsh" approach, since diksha is not a cheap thing, right.

I will try to skip the prasadam in the ISKCON-center whenever possible, but every now and then is, like you said, not that bad, especially if you know the devotee who cooked it.

From all the food I eat, 99% is cooked by myself, sometimes Moni cooks.

Sorry for putting this issue to public.
smile.gif
TarunGovindadas - Thu, 19 May 2005 23:43:09 +0530
QUOTE
It is also said by traditional Gaudiya's that Radha Krishna are not present in the dieties of Iskcon/GM, reason being because they do not have proper disksha in those institutions, so therefore the dieties are not properly installed without that proper channel. Tin Kori Baba had said this to some of his western diciples (friends of mine) many years ago..


blink.gif
Anyone on this?

JayF - Fri, 20 May 2005 06:25:51 +0530
Jai Radhe!

Excuse me if I am pulling this thread of topic, but if the prasadam in iskcon temples is unacceptable, what hope is there for wannabe bhatkas like me at home? I have no elaborate altar, no official deity (pictures instead), and of course I am a fool who doesn't know the first thing about properly worshipping or installing a deity. I have never been to a temple, and since I am not fortunate enough to have the association of the exalted devotees on this board, am I doomed to eat nothing but sin?
DharmaChakra - Fri, 20 May 2005 08:19:37 +0530
QUOTE(JayF @ May 19 2005, 08:55 PM)
Jai Radhe!

Excuse me if I am pulling this thread of topic, but if the prasadam in iskcon temples is unacceptable, what hope is there for wannabe bhatkas like me at home? I have no elaborate altar, no official deity (pictures instead), and of course I am a fool who doesn't know the first thing about properly worshipping or installing a deity. I have never been to a temple, and since I am not fortunate enough to have the association of the exalted devotees on this board, am I doomed to eat nothing but sin?


The reference is to those that have taken diksha in a traditional line. Not to mention, this is an instruction from certain gurus to their disciples. Please take it in the nature it is offered. It is not that all 'traditional' gurus forbit the eating of ISKCON prasadam. If you decide to take diksha in a traditional line, then this may or may not be an instruction from your guru.

When/If you do take diksha, then you will be qualified to worship the Deity and offer food. biggrin.gif
Kulapavana - Fri, 20 May 2005 17:08:18 +0530
QUOTE(DharmaChakra @ May 19 2005, 10:49 PM)
The reference is to those that have taken diksha in a traditional line. Not to mention, this is an instruction from certain gurus to their disciples. Please take it in the nature it is offered. It is not that all 'traditional' gurus forbit the eating of ISKCON prasadam. If you decide to take diksha in a traditional line, then this may or may not be an instruction from your guru.

When/If you do take diksha, then you will be qualified to worship the Deity and offer food.  biggrin.gif



Krsna says in BG that he will accept our offering when it is offered with love and devotion. There is no mention of diksha required. Therefore such claims of "proper" diksha required for an offering to become prasadam seem pretty bogus to me, looking like yet another attempt to institutionalize bhakti.
Madhava - Fri, 20 May 2005 18:08:15 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 12:38 PM)
Krsna says in BG that he will accept our offering when it is offered with love and devotion. There is no mention of diksha required. Therefore such claims of "proper" diksha required for an offering to become prasadam seem pretty bogus to me, looking like yet another attempt to institutionalize bhakti.

I'm sure you are familiar with Bhakti-sandarbha and Hari-bhakti-vilasa. Right? thinking.gif
braja - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:12:24 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
Krsna says in BG that he will accept our offering when it is offered with love and devotion. There is no mention of diksha required. Therefore such claims of "proper" diksha required for an offering to become prasadam seem pretty bogus to me, looking like yet another attempt to institutionalize bhakti.



One of the ironies in this situation is that those engaged in raganuga bhajan are labelled by some as sahajiyas yet they actually follow very high standards. If something is averse to bhajan, it is rejected.

As to the specifics of eating, I have been at feasts in Vrindavan in which invitations have been extended to the "general" sadhus. No whole grains were served at those feasts as the sadhus simply would not eat them. It's not a case of institutions, just a fact that they want to retain an optimal state of mind for their bhajan.

Sri Visvanatha Chakravartipada comments on the patram puspam verse specifically noting that "ritual purity" is required before Krsna can accept an offering. When bhakti is mentioned, the import is that it is bhakti in line with the 64 angas mentioned by Sri Rupa Gosvami. There are special cases no doubt, but the general standards of bhakti are clearly delineated.
jijaji - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:24:50 +0530
QUOTE
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
Krsna says in BG that he will accept our offering when it is offered with love and devotion. There is no mention of diksha required. Therefore such claims of "proper" diksha required for an offering to become prasadam seem pretty bogus to me, looking like yet another attempt to institutionalize bhakti.

Setting the 'proper diksha' issuse aside for a moment in this regard, you will even see in IGM that they themselves will not allow each and everyone to come onto their altars and offer archana and bhoga.

Have you addressed these issues with them as well..?

namaskar,

jijaji
Kulapavana - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:38:22 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ May 20 2005, 09:42 AM)

Sri Visvanatha Chakravartipada comments on the patram puspam verse specifically noting that "ritual purity" is required before Krsna can accept an offering. When bhakti is mentioned, the import is that it is bhakti in line with the 64 angas mentioned by Sri Rupa Gosvami. There are special cases no doubt, but the general standards of bhakti are clearly delineated.



this issue of "ritual purity" remainds me of some other traditions as well. and again, it would be nice to see a shastric verse supporting these notions.
Kulapavana - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:43:25 +0530
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 20 2005, 09:54 AM)
Setting the 'proper diksha' issuse aside for a moment in this regard, you will even see in IGM that they themselves will not allow each and everyone to come onto their altars and offer archana and bhoga.

Have you addressed these issues with them as well..?




prasadam does not come from Temple Deities alone. I was making a general comment about offering and prasadam.

secondly, you assume too much with regards to me taking the IGM stand
Madhava - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:44:53 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 03:08 PM)
QUOTE(braja @ May 20 2005, 09:42 AM)
Sri Visvanatha Chakravartipada comments on the patram puspam verse specifically noting that "ritual purity" is required before Krsna can accept an offering.

this issue of "ritual purity" remainds me of some other traditions as well. and again, it would be nice to see a shastric verse supporting these notions.

I thought Visvanatha's commentary might qualify for a shastric reference?

Anyhow (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.6):

adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam |
pazu-yonim avApnoti dIkSA-virahito janaH ||

"Whatever deeds an non-initiated person may do,
it is all deprived of value.
He who is without dIkSA
will take birth from the womb of an animal."

And before our non-initiated assembly starts a riot, I suggest using the search and reading what's been said of this verse in earlier discussions.

* * *

Kulapavana, with due respect, I find it a bit ludicrous that you would go and label something as "pretty bogus" without acquainting yourself with even the basic texts that deal with the concepts we are discussing. Please do your homework first.
Jagat - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:47:09 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ May 20 2005, 08:42 AM)
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
One of the ironies in this situation is that those engaged in raganuga bhajan are labelled by some as sahajiyas yet they actually follow very high standards. If something is averse to bhajan, it is rejected.


Another irony, to critics, is that the raganuga bhakta do have such an attachment to rules. This makes them appear, to some, as uptight vidhi marga bhaktas. I think this may be closer to Kulapavana's position.
jijaji - Fri, 20 May 2005 19:54:08 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 05:13 PM)
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 20 2005, 09:54 AM)
Setting the 'proper diksha' issuse aside for a moment in this regard, you will even see in IGM that they themselves will not allow each and everyone to come onto their altars and offer archana and bhoga.

Have you addressed these issues with them as well..?



prasadam does not come from Temple Deities alone. I was making a general comment about offering and prasadam.

secondly, you assume too much with regards to me taking the IGM stand

I was not assuming anything about you personally, I was just pointing out that IGM have certain standards themselves in regards to the offering of archana and bhoga.

namaskar,

jijaji
braja - Fri, 20 May 2005 20:13:44 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ May 20 2005, 10:17 AM)
QUOTE(braja @ May 20 2005, 08:42 AM)
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
One of the ironies in this situation is that those engaged in raganuga bhajan are labelled by some as sahajiyas yet they actually follow very high standards. If something is averse to bhajan, it is rejected.


Another irony, to critics, is that the raganuga bhakta do have such an attachment to rules. This makes them appear, to some, as uptight vidhi marga bhaktas. I think this may be closer to Kulapavana's position.



I was once travelling with a gurubhai and a senior ISKCON person. At one point the ISKCON devotee commented, "That sounds like vaidhi," in response to something my gurubhai said. I had to correct him, "No, it sounds like sadhana."

If you have something of value, you don't want to lose it. So if you mind is affected by the food someone has cooked, you'd avoid it, as much as you'd avoid eating late at night, alcohol, watching porn or whatever. Whether you arrive at that decision by way of personal experience or sastric injunction, the impetus is not fear of scripture but rather, an interest in maintaining bhajan but certainly any outlook can become hackneyed or rigid. And even if someone took a vaidhic approach to some issues, there's nothing inherently wrong with that--such following of rules in recommended in the absence of raga and when supportive of it.

The larger issue of a sort of free-flowing merciful Krsna who is easily worshipped, etc., versus the apparently restrictive ways and means of the Gaudiya samaj is an interesting one. I'd like to see examples of individuals and (less likely) institutions that follow a more open approach, how they operate, their effectiveness, the type of compromises they make, etc.

jijaji - Fri, 20 May 2005 20:47:04 +0530
QUOTE
Anyhow (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.6):

adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam |
pazu-yonim avApnoti dIkSA-virahito janaH ||

"Whatever deeds an non-initiated person may do,
it is all deprived of value.
He who is without dIkSA
will take birth from the womb of an animal."

And before our non-initiated assembly starts a riot, I suggest using the search and reading what's been said of this verse in earlier discussions.

Madhava,
Could you possibly give a link in regards to where discussion of this verse is located or the name of a specific thread? I am having trouble finding with the search.

namaskar,

jijaji
braja - Fri, 20 May 2005 21:10:00 +0530
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 20 2005, 11:17 AM)
QUOTE
Anyhow (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.6):

adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam |

And before our non-initiated assembly starts a riot, I suggest using the search and reading what's been said of this verse in earlier discussions.

Madhava,
Could you possibly give a link in regards to where discussion of this verse is located or the name of a specific thread? I am having trouble finding with the search.


Searching within posts for adIkSitasya vAmoru
Madhava - Fri, 20 May 2005 21:37:45 +0530
More specifically, this post is relevant.
Kulapavana - Fri, 20 May 2005 21:38:10 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 10:14 AM)
I find it a bit ludicrous that you would go and label something as "pretty bogus" without acquainting yourself with even the basic texts that deal with the concepts we are discussing. Please do your homework first.



My apologies. I do know the texts you are referring to, but many points can be argued using them. yet, maybe we should define the term "prasadam" first.
Madhava - Fri, 20 May 2005 21:52:09 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 05:08 PM)
I do know the texts you are referring to, but many points can be argued using them.

Yes, many points certainly can be argued using them. And if the text isn't interpreted out of context, most likely what's being argued is the correct siddhanta. We cannot dismiss them just because "many points can be argued using them".

Kulapavana - Fri, 20 May 2005 23:17:04 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ May 20 2005, 10:17 AM)
Another irony, to critics, is that the raganuga bhakta do have such an attachment to rules. This makes them appear, to some, as uptight vidhi marga bhaktas. I think this may be closer to Kulapavana's position.



that is precisely the point, altough there is more to it. sometimes the bhaktas create obstacles by being needlessly strict with the rules, or by not understanding the purpose of the rules.

kinda like folks who believe they are the ones going to heaven because they celebrate the holy day on Saturday, and not on Sunday, because that is the "ritually proper" way to observe that day... laugh.gif
Madhava - Fri, 20 May 2005 23:27:13 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 06:47 PM)
that is precisely the point, altough there is more to it. sometimes the bhaktas create obstacles by being needlessly strict with the rules, or by not understanding the purpose of the rules.

How do you define "needlessly strict"? The rules and guidelines in question are written there in the works of the Goswamis. I'm sure you don't mean to say that some of their teachings are unnecessary?
Kamala - Sat, 21 May 2005 00:28:06 +0530
Some of their teachings do seem needlessly strict and unnecessary: for example

vrntakam jalisakam kusumbha smantakam tatha
palandu lasunam suklam niryasan caiva varjayet
grjanam kinsukan caiva kukundanca tathaiva ca
udumbaram alavun ca jagdhva patati vai dvijah


(Hari Bhakti Vilasa 8.158,159, from Kurma Purana)

"One should not eat eggplant, banana leaves, sunflower leaves and asmantaka leaves, onions, garlic. One should not eat sour gruel (a thin watery pouriage) or the juice of the tree. One should also give up turnips and beetroots, carrots, kinsuka, forest figs, and white pumpkin. If the twice born persons eat these things, they all become fallen."

(source online)
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 00:31:38 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 20 2005, 07:58 PM)
Some of their teachings do seem needlessly strict and unnecessary: for example

Please explain why.
Kamala - Sat, 21 May 2005 00:43:05 +0530
It seems self-evident to me. I cannot see any relationship between abstaining from eating eggplants (rather than a similar vegetable such as a green pepper or a tomato) and developing bhakti.

I would like to know why such a dietary restriction is considered helpful to the development of bhaki.
Kulapavana - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:14:22 +0530
I certainly have no problem obstaining from sour gruel... cool.gif

but seriously: Have you ever met someone who completely follows all HBV rules? some rules from other shastras even appear contradictory. which ones do you follow then?

and what is the definition of prasadam?
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:14:57 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 20 2005, 08:13 PM)
It seems self-evident to me. I cannot see any relationship between abstaining from eating eggplants (rather than a similar vegetable such as a green pepper or a tomato) and developing bhakti.

I would like to know why such a dietary restriction is considered helpful to the development of bhaki.

Bhagavad-gita, chapter 17. Foodstuffs under the three modes of nature. smile.gif
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:33:15 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 03:44 PM)
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 20 2005, 08:13 PM)
It seems self-evident to me. I cannot see any relationship between abstaining from eating eggplants (rather than a similar vegetable such as a green pepper or a tomato) and developing bhakti.

I would like to know why such a dietary restriction is considered helpful to the development of bhaki.

Bhagavad-gita, chapter 17. Foodstuffs under the three modes of nature. smile.gif

I guess that you mean to say that aubergine falls in the category of food that is of rajas or tamas. Why is that so?
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:38:19 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 20 2005, 09:03 PM)
I guess that you mean to say that aubergine falls in the category of food that is of rajas or tamas.  Why is that so?

Whether it's rajas or tamas, I have no idea. I don't have a rajas-o-meter at hand.

However, I believe the regulations were originally based on the experiences of the authors of these foodstuffs. Experiences that many shared, which lead to concluding that some foodstuffs were unfit for consumption for those who seek a calm and steady mind suitable for concentrated worship and meditation.

Different foodstuffs do have a great deal of subtle influence on the psyche. And with subtle, I do not mean imaginary or unperceivable. By subtle, I mean something a person living a very pure and sattvic lifestyle is able to perceive through experience.
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:38:40 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 01:47 PM)
kinda like folks who believe they are the ones going to heaven because they celebrate the holy day on Saturday, and not on Sunday, because that is the "ritually proper" way to observe that day... laugh.gif

Consider that when the Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar, October 15, 1582 followed October 4, 1582. So, are what we call sundays really sundays in the religious sense? smile.gif
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:42:09 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 04:08 PM)
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 20 2005, 09:03 PM)
I guess that you mean to say that aubergine falls in the category of food that is of rajas or tamas.  Why is that so?

Whether it's rajas or tamas, I have no idea. I don't have a rajas-o-meter at hand.

In that case, is it not possible that aubergines are governed by sattva?

QUOTE
However, I believe the regulations were originally based on the experiences of the authors of these foodstuffs. Experiences that many shared, which lead to concluding that some foodstuffs were unfit for consumption for those who seek a calm and steady mind suitable for concentrated worship and meditation.

Fair enough. But their experience may not be relevant to us, and, who knows, they could be wrong.

QUOTE
Different foodstuffs do have a great deal of subtle influence on the psyche. And with subtle, I do not mean imaginary or unperceivable. By subtle, I mean something a person living a very pure and sattvic lifestyle is able to perceive through experience.

Does anyone here have any experience with aubergines that could shed light on this?
Kulapavana - Sat, 21 May 2005 01:55:02 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 20 2005, 04:08 PM)
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ May 20 2005, 01:47 PM)
kinda like folks who believe they are the ones going to heaven because they celebrate the holy day on Saturday, and not on Sunday, because that is the "ritually proper" way to observe that day... laugh.gif

Consider that when the Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar, October 15, 1582 followed October 4, 1582. So, are what we call sundays really sundays in the religious sense? smile.gif



I'm sure scholarly folks who pay attention to that subject matter can quote appropriate Talmudic commentaries or present some other "shastric" evidence to support their position... rolleyes.gif
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 02:03:28 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 20 2005, 09:12 PM)
In that case, is it not possible that aubergines are governed by sattva?

Everything is possible. However, I doubt this for several reasons. First of all, aubergines are pretty tasteless (and slimy) mush unless prepared in very particular ways. I also recall reading that they can actually be poisonous unless properly prepared.


QUOTE
Fair enough.  But their experience may not be relevant to us, and, who knows, they could be wrong.

Well, there's only one way to find out, isn't it. Build up an extremely sattvic state of mind and meditate for extended periods daily. Then experiment with different vegetables and observe their effects.
DharmaChakra - Sat, 21 May 2005 04:11:42 +0530
Oh the eggplant.. for the amount of times this lowly plant gets brought up around here, I think we need to coin a phrase for this particular line of discussion.

'The Eggplant Argument'? 'The Aubergine Escape'? (Sounds like a great chess move...)

Kamala - Sat, 21 May 2005 05:05:26 +0530
I agree than in itself that "The Eggplant Argument" is rather trivial - but what I am interested in is how it is emblematic of how the Gaudiya line evolved from the original mood of Gaur-Nitai to (some aspects of) the teachings of the Goswamis.

Jagat has addressed this somewhat in his essay on Kheturi, where he recognises (without agreeing with them) that some commentators consider

"...the establishment of the Goswami scriptures as a historical disaster because it reaffirmed Brahminical social dominance and its values instead of furthering the emancipation of the lower classes that had been started off by Nityananda Prabhu with his egalitarian ethos."

I would suggest that it is an inadequate response to questions about doctrinal controversies underpinning "The Eggplant Argument" to recommend merely that the questioner "build up an extremely sattvic state of mind and meditate for extended periods daily". This appears to be a rather subtle ad hominem argument along the lines of "you're not pure so why not try to become so first, before venturing an opinion..."

For me, there is an elephant in the living room here. However I do appreciate that sincere followers of the Goswamis might not want to engage with the arguments of armchair philosophers such as myself who are neither properly initiated nor practicing serious sadhana. Venturing into such territory carries the risk of making offences no doubt. But if anyone has any other thoughts on this, from any quarter, I'd be interested to hear them.
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 05:19:25 +0530
Gaudiya Vaishnavas are not the only people on the planet who have some restriction concerning 'nightshades', which eggplant is, of course potatoe and tomatoe are 'nightshades' as well, maybe someone can give some insight why the poor eggplant is blasphemed ao much tongue.gif

However:

Zen diets (as in zen macrobiotics) restrict usage of 'nightshades' as they are seen as very 'Yin' and bring imbalance to the system..

Ayurveda recommends to minimize use of pungent vegetables like garlic, onions, chili peppers and nightshades like tomatoes and eggplant. as they are 'pitta' producing and in a hot place like India I could certainly see why they were not recommended.

Vasant Lad says;

Nightshades, (Potato, Tomato, Eggplant, Chilies) Are Incompatible With:
# Yogurt
# Milk
# Melon
# Cucumber

Foods for the Vata Individual to Avoid:

* Raw foods. May be eaten very sparingly
* Nightshades; tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants and peppers
* Spinach
* Drying fruits; cranberries, pomegranates, raw apples
* Legumes
* Sugar


Osteoarthritis (OA)

Solanine is a substance found in nightshade plants, including tomatoes, white potatoes, all peppers (except black pepper), and eggplant. In theory, if it is not destroyed in the intestine, solanine could be toxic

The avoidance of tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant and peppers has long been touted to assist people living with arthritis. In an uncontrolled study (16) of 5000 patients lasting 7 years around 75% of people reported a gradual reduction in pain. Foods such as meat, salt, sugar, and nightshades (tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, potatoes) create acidity in the blood, which is always present in cases of pain and degenerative disease (eg: arthritis).

namaskar,

jijaji
Tapati - Sat, 21 May 2005 06:07:06 +0530
So, my beloved Kishora Kishori are not really installed Deities and my diet is totally wrong and I am doomed to take an animal birth in my next life.

Ok, glad that's been made clear so I can prepare for my next birth.

Hope I am a sheltered house cat, then.

braja - Sat, 21 May 2005 06:45:46 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 20 2005, 07:35 PM)
I agree than in itself that "The Eggplant Argument" is rather trivial - but what I am interested in  is how it is emblematic of how the Gaudiya line evolved from the original mood of Gaur-Nitai to (some aspects of) the teachings of the Goswamis.


Mahaprabhu himself relished eggplant...but that's whole different sack of potatoes. wink.gif

What would you classify as "the original mood of Gaur-Nitai"? What and where did Mahaprabhu eat?

Fascinating topic this. When all is said and done, I think the bottom line is that the Gaudiya mood is one of tough love. The background to that is there being a specific goal, specific methods, etc. But not much (any?) of that will make much sense unless or until a person is tasting the fruits of those goals.
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 07:06:57 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 04:33 PM)
However, I doubt this for several reasons. First of all, aubergines are pretty tasteless (and slimy) mush unless prepared in very particular ways.

So, by virtue of better taste and consistency, beef would be closer to sattva?
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 08:35:58 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 21 2005, 12:35 AM)
I agree than in itself that "The Eggplant Argument" is rather trivial - but what I am interested in  is how it is emblematic of how the Gaudiya line evolved from the original mood of Gaur-Nitai to (some aspects of) the teachings of the Goswamis.

Jagat has addressed this somewhat in his essay on Kheturi, where he recognises (without agreeing with them) that some commentators consider 

"...the establishment of the Goswami scriptures as a historical disaster because it reaffirmed Brahminical social dominance and its values instead of furthering the emancipation of the lower classes that had been started off by Nityananda Prabhu with his egalitarian ethos."

I would be curious to know on what grounds "original mood of Gaur-Nitai" is defined, since it obviously is something comfy some have conceptualized and contrasted with the "mood of the Goswamis".


QUOTE
I would suggest that it is an inadequate response to questions about doctrinal controversies underpinning "The Eggplant Argument" to recommend merely that the questioner "build up an extremely sattvic state of mind and meditate for extended periods daily". This appears to be a rather subtle ad hominem argument along the lines of "you're not pure so why not try to become so first, before venturing an opinion..."

Well, if there is another way out of that, then I'm all ears. If someone questions the validity of the statement, then a method must be adopted for either verifying or falsifying the statement. Is it not? Then, what is the method?

For the sceptic, it would not make sense to just have it from a sadhu who lives a sattvic lifestyle, since the sadhu would in all likelihood just refer to the shastra to validate the view to begin with. Therefore the only viable recourse is to try it for oneself; yet, as pointed out, the trying is only possible in a very sattvic state of mind. I do not see how this is an ad hominem. It's just a hard reality of life. If you want to try it yourself, since seeing is believing, only you can be the test subject in whom the effects are realized, and the test subject has to meet certain criteria to produce a reliable result.
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 08:43:53 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 21 2005, 02:36 AM)
So, by virtue of better taste and consistency, beef would be closer to sattva?

You know that doesn't make much sense for an argument due to the cruel methods involved in procuring beef. That aside, beef is hardly tasty, if it weren't for the spices used. I invite you to cook a beef in plain water and observe the relish.
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 09:00:02 +0530
Actually the taste that is there in beef comes primarily from the blood contained in it.

real sattvic real vampire like....

huh.gif
braja - Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03:15 +0530
I reread Jagat's article and have a couple of comments. First of all, on the egalitarian ideal of "Hitesranjan Sanyal and many other leftist Bengalis": doesn't their viewpoint affect the ideal they saw in Nityananda? A GV sadhaka sees Sri Nitai cavorting with his gopa friends--the Gopals and upa-Gopals are all old buddies. The outcastes he deals with also have a lilic (lilac) history, e.g. Jagai and Madhai. To transfer those dealings into a wordly sociological perspective is not the goal of GV; its goal is the opposite--to transfer us into the realm of lila. And to do that, specific means have been developed. For instance, Jagat's article continues:

QUOTE
This sadhu-sanga is of course a “second” sadhu-sanga. The first, which is considered the root cause of zraddhA, is more or less accidental. The second is intentional. It is a necessary response to conversion.


Personally, I think this analysis is amazingly astute and I consider my early forays in the world of Gaudiya Vaisnavism to be of this accidental nature. Whether getting back to specifics of this thread and thinking of this in terms of how to offer something right up to who Krsna is, the lack of purpose and knowledge I experienced differs dramatically from the understanding I have now been given entrance to.

QUOTE
The beginning of sadhu sanga, it is agreed by most members of the Chaitanya Vaishnava sampradaya, is largely defined by initiation. One who has faith naturally seeks out like-minded people, who share not only the same goal of prema, but the means for achieving it. Initiation is the price of admission into the community of devotees.


Like-minded people, sharing the same goal, diksha...these are simply the ways and means of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya-- as sectarian, limited, or whatever they may seem in whole or in part. Unless or until someone turns their thinking (and experiencing) on its head and sees things from the point of view of the goal and has faith in the ways of the Vaisnava acaryas, it cannot make complete sense. And it's probably not meant to.

Having your heart in the right place is obviously a fortunate and worshipable position; having it in the right place and putting your body and mind there is the best. We can quibble for thousands of years, but one drop of kindness from Sri Radhika puts all that into perspective.
TarunGovindadas - Sat, 21 May 2005 11:33:44 +0530
QUOTE
Krsna says in BG that he will accept our offering when it is offered with love and devotion.


I find this very important:
Love and devotion...Thats a good point.
I at least can say that I dont have a whiff of love and devotion, so I depend fully on the mercy of Sri Guru (diksha-initiation) to become really able to offer with "love and devotion".

Madanmohan das - Sat, 21 May 2005 13:11:33 +0530
So can anybody crack the Eggplant enigma?
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 14:39:15 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ May 21 2005, 10:41 AM)
So can anybody crack the Eggplant enigma?



For me I simply resolve it as being a 'nightshade' that should be avoided. I was into macrobiotics as a teenager in the late 60's, and if anyone here was also they know there was that restriction with 'nightshades' in general, as they were not good in allowing a proper balance of 'Yin-Yang'.

Also as I mentioned before, certain 'Nightshades' according to Ayurveda can cause excessive 'Pitta' as well as aggrevate those with Vata constitution.

I don't think recommended restriction of 'Nightshades' is all that disturbing and frankly not that uncommon.

namaskar,

jijaji
TarunGovindadas - Sat, 21 May 2005 15:20:18 +0530
QUOTE
"...the establishment of the Goswami scriptures as a historical disaster because it reaffirmed Brahminical social dominance and its values instead of furthering the emancipation of the lower classes that had been started off by Nityananda Prabhu with his egalitarian ethos."


Historical disaster?
As a Gaudiya Vaishnava-aspirant I prefer to believe that the Goswamis, especially Srila Rupa Goswamipad and Srila Sanatana Goswamipad, have been empowered by Sriman Mahaprabhu to teach all following souls. So with this perspective I do not see the point in questioning them or arguing with them.

We tend to argue with such Mahajanas because of our conditioned nature and we like to think: "Well, nowadays we know it better." But this is just on the platform of our minds.

The Goswamis have given us teachings to attain the highest level of bhakti and its up to us what we like to follow or not.
If we really want to come to the platform of "saranagati" we have to give up ALL selfish desires, even on the platform of annamaya (foodstuff).

Believe me, I am THE eggplant fanatic par excellence, but the more I read about it and think about it, the more I have to confess with an honest heart, that actually I know that something is not "right" with this veggie.

I admit that I become more rajasic by eating eggplant. Why? Easy.
Eggplants SCREAM for a nice rich sauce to absorb themselves (tomatoe, cream, spicy,...), because on their own they are pretty tasteless. So then the menu gets pretty rajasic and heavy to digest (less energy for the brain/mind).

I totally agree with Madhava and I feel sure that the Goswamis must have had "something on their minds" by giving us all these instructions. Like I said, they want to elevate us to the highest platform and we can follow them or not.
And here in this Eggplant-stuff they want to lift our minds to sattva-guna.
(Bhagavad-gita, ch. 17)

Now if someone follows the "routine" of the Goswamis (sleeping max. 2 hours, eating next to nothing, lakhs of japa, puja, smaranam, writing,...) then maybe this someone can try to argue with them.
Otherwise what is the value of the insights of a conditioned soul versus the insights of a very much elevated soul, empowered by God Himself? Yeah, sure if we don`t believe the empowering, then there is no point of discussing this on a Gaudiya-forum, right?
This would be just about arguing, motivated by selfish desires, at least for me.

I was very angry when I first heard about the "Eggplant-enigma". Angry because the rascal in my head loves to eat them. Angry because I don´t want to surrender fully.
The more I meditate on this eggplantish point, the more I see that I have to give up all my selfish desires if I want to become a self-realized soul. Even these small things are hard to give up for me, so I rather beg for the mercy of the Goswamis to come to the point of understanding their immaculate realizations then to argue with them or question them, driven by selfish desires.

If someone really is on the level of the Goswamis, maybe this someone can look deep into this "Eggplant -enigma". tongue.gif

Jay Sri Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadhe Syam.
biggrin.gif
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 15:25:02 +0530
QUOTE
Tapati,May 21 2005, 03:37 AM
So, my beloved Kishora Kishori are not really installed Deities and my diet is totally wrong and I am doomed to take an animal birth in my next life

I sense some distress here on your part Tapati and I certainly did not try to upset you in bringing this issue up, however, it stands to reason that the deities in IGM are not properly installed as those institutions themselves are without proper diksha. So in that light if they who are installing those murtis are themselves without proper diksha ..how can they be properly installed? One has to have proper diksha to offer proper archana anyways..

Hearing these issues of IGM not having proper diksha or that their deities are not installed properly is very disturbing for those who are still conditioned by IGM and all that was taught in those institutions.
I can assure you most of us who were part of IGM and came to learn of these things found them very disturbing at 1st as well. It's like getting a big big bubble burst and it hurts, literally pulling the rug from under your feet, having long held beliefs and convictions shown to be not exactly as we were taught. When I first heard these things back in the late 70's from a friend who had taken diksha I was up in arms, ready to fight him tooth and nail.
I later calmed down obviously.

As far as your next birth as an animal is concerned if I may quote Madhava, as it doesn't seem you looked back at the the other recommended threads that address this;

QUOTE
I think the question draws from the following verse of Vishnu Yamala quoted in Hari Bhakti Vilasa (2.6):

    adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam
    pazu-yonim avApnoti dIkSA-virahito janaH

    "Of him who is not initiated, all of his deeds are devoid of value. Those men who are devoid of diksa take birth from an animal's womb."

However, we have to understand the context of this verse. It obviously refers to someone who does not intend to take diksa, thus being opposed to scriptural injunctions and blocked in his progress towards the ultimate goal of life. This merely reflects the words of the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita (16.23):

    yaH zAstra-vidhim utsRjya vartate kAma-kArataH
    na sa siddhim avApnoti na sukhaM na parAM gatim

    "For the one who rejects the injunctions of the scripture and acts according to his whims, for him there is no attainment of perfection, happines, or the supreme goal of life."

The aforementioned verse from the Hari Bhakti Vilasa certainly does not apply for one who is desirous to follow the path of the mahajanas by accepting diksa from a worthy guru in the future. Practically such a person has already taken diksa, for only time separates his desire from being tangible reality.

QUOTE
Ok, glad that's been made clear so I can prepare for my next birth.

Hope I am a sheltered house cat, then.


I assume you mean as a familier wink.gif

namaskar,

jijaji
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 15:56:38 +0530
Eggplant, is not eaten by many Jains. The logic is that it has many so seeds, and each seed is a potential life, so the cost of eating eggplant is too high.

Yet another reference to others who have restrictions regarding the intake of the infamous 'Gagootz' tongue.gif
Malatilata - Sat, 21 May 2005 16:06:54 +0530
Well spoken, Tarunji!

QUOTE
As a Gaudiya Vaishnava-aspirant I prefer to believe that the Goswamis, especially Srila Rupa Goswamipad and Srila Sanatana Goswamipad, have been empowered by Sriman Mahaprabhu to teach all following souls. So with this perspective I do not see the point in questioning them or arguing with them.


One senior Vaishnava at Radhakunda spoke to us in a very touching way, how Srila Sanatan Gosvami saw a great trouble in writing down all these rules, he didn't do it for nothing. He was thinking of the welfare of the sadhakas.

If we follow very strictly, we will notice the difference. He engouraged us to try and see the results. I saw myself how this Vaishnava was following very strictly and how happy, full of love and ananda he was. By his beautiful example he really increased a lot my faith in the shastras.

So, now we are trying to follow and I can already see some difference in my consciousness. For my body it may not be so easy, because my diet is already very restricted due to some allergies, but I shouldn't think of the happiness of my body. I should try to think of the happiness of Radha and Krishna and not bring any unhappiness to Them. (which I am undoubtedly doing a lot sad.gif )

And Radharani is very kind and compassionate, I have heard many stories of Vaishnavas, who have almost starved to death because of their strict austeritites and then Radharani couldn't tolerate anymore seeing Her devotee "suffering" like this. Then She gave Her darsan to Her devotee and even brought some delicious Krishna-prasad with Her. smile.gif

QUOTE
The Goswamis have given us teachings to attain the highest level of bhakti and its up to us what we like to follow or not.


I suppose it's up to how eager we really are to attain that wonderful goal. If one is really eager and greedy for something, he is ready to do anything for it. I don't have so much eagerness, I still think so much of the well-being of this temporary body sad.gif My hope is that staying close to such eager Vaishnavas my heart will become one with them.

QUOTE
I find this very important:
Love and devotion...Thats a good point.


I think that without love it is very difficult to follow strictly, at least for a long time. One has to have love for Sri Guru, Vaishnavas, the Gosvamis (Sri Rupa, Sanatana etc), Nitai Gaura and Radha Krishna to be able to take all that austerity. I think it is a kind of offering of love for them to try to follow all their instructions. blush.gif

ps. I have never liked eggplant, I have tasted it a couple of times in my life and everytime I felt like I had some food poisoning..
TarunGovindadas - Sat, 21 May 2005 16:17:48 +0530
QUOTE
If we follow very strictly, we will notice the difference.


That really hits the nail with the hammer. biggrin.gif

I too see the differences. I was "initiated" thrice, laugh.gif laugh.gif , but I never felt so happy like I do now since that mysterious December-Wednesday.

And I know that much more happiness will come about, since I too am much more preoccupied with my happiness then with the happiness of Sri Guru, all Vaishnavas and Sri Sri Yugal Kishor.
But when I start to "examine" the rulez & regz with my mustard-seed-like brain, teamed up with my ego-monstermind, well then good nighty!

Follow and notice!
biggrin.gif
nabadip - Sat, 21 May 2005 16:34:22 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 20 2005, 08:58 PM)
Some of their teachings do seem needlessly strict and unnecessary: for example

vrntakam jalisakam kusumbha smantakam tatha
palandu lasunam suklam niryasan caiva varjayet
grjanam kinsukan caiva kukundanca tathaiva ca
udumbaram alavun ca jagdhva patati vai dvijah


(Hari Bhakti Vilasa 8.158,159, from Kurma Purana)

"One should not eat eggplant, banana leaves, sunflower leaves and asmantaka leaves, onions, garlic. One should not eat sour gruel (a thin watery pouriage) or the juice of the tree. One should also give up turnips and beetroots, carrots, kinsuka, forest figs, and white pumpkin. If the twice born persons eat these things, they all become fallen."

(source online)



In this controversy I would suggest to observe the situation of the author of HBV, the readers he addressed and the circumstances. He collects verses from various scriptures to delineate a code of behaviour. Does he discuss the quotes in detail, or just leave them as they come? If the mentioning of eggplant had been missing in the quote he took from Kurma Purana, the problem would not have arisen for us. The next thing to look at would be the context of the quote within the Kurma Purana. At a second step the question arises for me: What was the plausibility for an author writing from Vraja Dham to include this quote? One thing that comes to mind is that most likely some of the mentioned veggies were not easily available in the holy dham, if at all. To procure them might have meant a kind of luxurious endevaour. Banana does not grow in Vraja; it grows only down South. Where did eggplant grow? Gopal Bhatta Goswami was most likely never in a position to come in conflict with his own quote.

What did the quote mean to the readers of the book until recently? Most bhaktas are bent to lead a simple life anyway. But what is meant by banana leaf? Only cows can digest green banana leaf. Does it mean the blossom of banana which is a delicacy (yummie, yummie tongue.gif ) in Bengali cuisine? That onion and garlic are tamasic is evident to anyone who has ever taken them for a while.

Here is a link to an History of the Eggplant, beginning from its times in India.

http://searchwarp.com/swa1295.htm

It would be interesting to know whether Brinjal has a history within India, that it got certain characterisitcs attributed to it, as was done by the Spaniards who thought it was aphrodisiac. The above link provides an insight that eggplant was indeed viewed in especially positive or negative ways...

Finally, I wonder which sangas do strictly follow this prohibition?

And which of them does not serve peanuts on Ekadasi?

braja - Sat, 21 May 2005 17:41:32 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ May 21 2005, 03:41 AM)
So can anybody crack the Eggplant enigma?



It was the British who broke the code, so we were waiting upon your input. I have my theories, but I'm from the Colonies.
Madanmohan das - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:18:50 +0530
I dare not say what I think. Certainly alot of rules and regulations are not attractive. And the smartavya satatam visnu...etc., sloka clarifies it. Maybe all those vidhis are just meant for people born in dvija castes? Also some people need to be cautioned and admonished by vidhis due to pliable sraddha in order to strengthen it. Fortunately for me I don't like eggplants or carrots, but still I am engaged in nisidha AcAra interdicted conduct. Mercy! Mercy! Mercy!

O yes check Manah siksa 2 and, if you like, Thakura Bhaktivinoda's Bhasa.
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:24:49 +0530
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 21 2005, 10:55 AM)
I sense some distress here on your part Tapati and I certainly did not try to upset you in  bringing this issue up, however, it stands to reason that the deities in IGM are not properly installed as those institutions themselves are without proper diksha. So in that light if they who are installing those murtis are themselves without proper diksha ..how can they be properly installed? One has to have proper diksha to offer proper archana anyways..

Not only that, but in IGM, we frequently see people worshiping archa-vigrahas that aren't even installed at all. There are even temples where prANa-pratiSTha hasn't taken place. Beyond that, arca-mUrtis are frequently given even to people who aren't initiated even according to their standards, particularly Nitai-Gaura since "they take no offences".
Kamala - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:30:26 +0530
Very interesting and thought provoking arguments, lots to think about. Like the eggplant itself which is tasteless but absorbs the flavour of the sauce with with it is infused, the varieties of different responses from different people to my tasteless question showcases some of their own particular tasty "spiritual flavours".

But I cannot resist questioning one particular response: please don't take offence Tarunji, but in the quote from you below, one could insert the name of anyone from Bhaktivedanta Swami, to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, or even Kirtanananda or the GBC: try it and see. You could also try changing the topic from "eating eggplants" to "picking money from karmis in airports" or "putting all your disciples' money in a Swiss bank account under your own name"! Doing this substitution exercise suggests to me that an "argument from authority" can only ever convince the already-committed speaker! (And for myself I appreciate and envy those, like yourself, who are committed to their path and Guru!)

QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ May 21 2005, 09:50 AM)
As a Gaudiya Vaishnava-aspirant I prefer to believe that the [X], have been empowered by Sriman Mahaprabhu to teach all following souls. So with this perspective I do not see the point in questioning them or arguing with them.

We tend to argue with such Mahajanas because of our conditioned nature and we like to think: "Well, nowadays we know it better." But this is just on the platform of our minds.

I feel sure that [X] must have had "something on their minds" by giving us all these instructions. Like I said, they want to elevate us to the highest platform and we can follow them or not.

what is the value of the insights of a conditioned soul versus the insights of a very much elevated soul, empowered by God Himself?... so I rather beg for the mercy of [X]  to come to the point of understanding their immaculate realizations than (the word 'then' in the original I presume was a typo) to argue with them or question them, driven by selfish desires.

If someone really is on the level of [X], maybe this someone can look deep into this "Eggplant -enigma". 




Madanmohan das - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:30:54 +0530
Sri Sanatana also says viramita nija dharma dhyAna pUjAdi yatnam in glorification of Sri Nama, to the effect that it causes one to relax his efforts in such vidhis- acts in preferance to Nama bhajan.
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:38:26 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 11:13 PM)
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 21 2005, 02:36 AM)
So, by virtue of better taste and consistency, beef would be closer to sattva?

You know that doesn't make much sense for an argument due to the cruel methods involved in procuring beef. That aside, beef is hardly tasty, if it weren't for the spices used. I invite you to cook a beef in plain water and observe the relish.

I trust that I made my point, though. Namely that one can hardly judge the nature of a food product solely by reference to its lack of taste and unpleasant consistency. More important than whether or not it is palatable, it seems to me, is how it acts on the body when consumed.
braja - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:39:15 +0530
QUOTE(Kamala @ May 21 2005, 09:00 AM)
Very interesting and thought provoking arguments, lots to think about. Like the eggplant itself which is tasteless but absorbs the flavour of the sauce with with it is infused, the varieties of different responses from different people to my tasteless question showcases some of their own particular tasty "spiritual flavours".


Mmmm. Now that is as tasteful a response as I have seen in a long time. Bravo! Makes you wonder about those old expressions, "getting the sauce" and "fried".
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:47:14 +0530
QUOTE(nabadip @ May 21 2005, 12:04 PM)
Does he discuss the quotes in detail, or just leave them as they come? If the mentioning of eggplant had been missing in the quote he took from  Kurma Purana, the problem would not have arisen for us. The next thing to look at would be the context of the quote within the Kurma Purana. At a second step the question arises for me: What was the plausibility for an author writing from Vraja Dham to include this quote?

With regards to eggplant, it isn't a mere single quote. It's mentioned on at least three occasions as a general rule, and more in specific contexts. Beyond that, it is fairly common mentioned in the lists of various Puranas delineating regulations on food.

It isn't that the author was short on material to quote; if the verse indeed had something superfluous, he could have cited another in its stead.


QUOTE
One thing that comes to mind is that most likely  some of the mentioned veggies were not easily available in the holy dham, if at all. To procure them might have meant a kind of luxurious endevaour. Banana does not grow in Vraja; it grows only down South. Where did eggplant grow? Gopal Bhatta Goswami was most likely never in a position to come in conflict with his own quote.

Since the followers of Sri Chaitanya were not geographically focused on a single locale, I doubt that Bhatta Goswami would have written localized rules without explicitly mentioning the same.


QUOTE
What did the quote mean to the readers of the book until recently? Most bhaktas are bent to lead a simple life anyway. But what is meant by banana leaf? Only cows can digest green banana leaf. Does it mean the blossom of banana which is a delicacy (yummie, yummie tongue.gif ) in Bengali cuisine? That onion and garlic are tamasic is evident to anyone who has ever taken them for a while.

The verse should actually read: jAlikA-zakam. Monier-Williams gives "a species of melon (having a reticulated rind)" for jAlin. jAla is a small cucumber or Nauclea Cadamba, which is mentioned in Kama-sutra as having a disenchanting effect on the partner, an anti-aphrodisiac if you will. Sahitya-Samshad translates jAli as "a very young and tender gourd or any other similar fruit". It escapes me where the banana leaves come in from.


QUOTE
Finally, I wonder which sangas do strictly follow this prohibition?

And which of them does not serve peanuts on Ekadasi?

On eggplant? There are many that do. Though I've seen it served in some feasts in Vraja, I personally don't take it.

I believe peanuts are commonly avoided on Ekadashi. That's what I was taught at Radha-kunda when I first inquired about a proper Ekadashi-diet from a gurubhai.
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 18:59:22 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 04:33 PM)
Well, there's only one way to find out, isn't it. Build up an extremely sattvic state of mind and meditate for extended periods daily. Then experiment with different vegetables and observe their effects.

While I have not experimented with aubergine, I am not a stranger to such pursuits. I often try to see how things affect me, trying brown rice diets, only eating fruits for some days, etc. You may argue that my mind is not of sattva (whatever that means), but we may never be able to establish this objectively and experimentation has a value in its own right.

I am not advocating that aubergines are good. I have no policy of avoiding them entirely, but I hardly ever eat them. This year, I have had aubergine once so far.

Back to the topic of experimenting.

When living in the Danish ISKCON temple, I was told that chanting "Coca Cola" would not be as satisfying as chanting "Hare KRSNa." So, I put it to the test. First I created what I called the soda-mantra, namely:

Sprite Cola Sprite Cola Cola Cola Sprite Sprite |
Fanta Cola Fanta Cola Cola Cola Fanta Fanta ||

For a few days I chanted sixteen rounds of this mantra instead of the mahA-mantra. Since everybody mumbled in the temple room during japa time, nobody noticed. Well, what I can say is this: It does not make much of a difference whether one chants the soda-mantra or the mahA-mantra. The effect is the same.

But, who is going to take this experiment seriously? Devotees will always find some way of rejecting my conclusion, usually by using the explains-it-all theory of offenses or something like that.
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:14:38 +0530
QUOTE
Devotees will always find some way of rejecting my conclusion, usually by using the explains-it-all theory of offenses or something like that.

Most of your experience of devotees is with IGM devotees I am guessing right? As mostly when referring to devotees you usually mention 'Danish ISKCON temple'. Did you ever take time to visit traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas at all Elpis when you were in India..? Just curious.

namaskar,

jijaji
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:29:55 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 21 2005, 02:29 PM)
When living in the Danish ISKCON temple, I was told that chanting "Coca Cola" would not be as satisfying as chanting "Hare KRSNa."  So, I put it to the test.  First I created what I called the soda-mantra, namely:

Sprite Cola Sprite Cola Cola Cola Sprite Sprite |
Fanta Cola Fanta Cola Cola Cola Fanta Fanta ||

For a few days I chanted sixteen rounds of this mantra instead of the mahA-mantra.  Since everybody mumbled in the temple room during japa time, nobody noticed.  Well, what I can say is this: It does not make much of a difference whether one chants the soda-mantra or the mahA-mantra.  The effect is the same.

But, who is going to take this experiment seriously?  Devotees will always find some way of rejecting my conclusion, usually by using the explains-it-all theory of offenses or something like that.

Well, you've certainly proven that if people mumble mantras without meditating on their meaning, it hardly makes a difference in practice what you may mumble. No arguments there. smile.gif

However, had you made a concentrated effort to focus on the meaning and import of the mantras, your conclusion might have been different. That is, unless you actually did that and had some real awesome visions of Fido Dido. laugh.gif


QUOTE
You may argue that my mind is not of sattva (whatever that means), but we may never be able to establish this objectively and experimentation has a value in its own right.

Experiences are subjective. That isn't an issue, I think we all agree on that. For people who seek to share of the deep sadhana-experiences of the Goswamis, I believe it is only sensible to seek to emulate their vows and so forth as far as possible.

And even if some of the restricted foodstuffs really only made a substantial impact on medieval Indian physiology, what loss would there be in playing it safe?

With regards to the mind being in sattva, I suppose I should clarify that the influence of many such rules and guidelines only really becomes tangible in the course of the practice of smarana (or other very focused and sensitive practices) in the effects of mental clarity.
dasanudas - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:32:51 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 21 2005, 08:29 AM)
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 20 2005, 04:33 PM)
Well, there's only one way to find out, isn't it. Build up an extremely sattvic state of mind and meditate for extended periods daily. Then experiment with different vegetables and observe their effects.

While I have not experimented with aubergine, I am not a stranger to such pursuits. I often try to see how things affect me, trying brown rice diets, only eating fruits for some days, etc. You may argue that my mind is not of sattva (whatever that means), but we may never be able to establish this objectively and experimentation has a value in its own right.

I am not advocating that aubergines are good. I have no policy of avoiding them entirely, but I hardly ever eat them. This year, I have had aubergine once so far.

Back to the topic of experimenting.

When living in the Danish ISKCON temple, I was told that chanting "Coca Cola" would not be as satisfying as chanting "Hare KRSNa." So, I put it to the test. First I created what I called the soda-mantra, namely:

Sprite Cola Sprite Cola Cola Cola Sprite Sprite |
Fanta Cola Fanta Cola Cola Cola Fanta Fanta ||

For a few days I chanted sixteen rounds of this mantra instead of the mahA-mantra. Since everybody mumbled in the temple room during japa time, nobody noticed. Well, what I can say is this: It does not make much of a difference whether one chants the soda-mantra or the mahA-mantra. The effect is the same.

But, who is going to take this experiment seriously? Devotees will always find some way of rejecting my conclusion, usually by using the explains-it-all theory of offenses or something like that.




Elpis do another round of experiment. Ask one of your friend to help you. Ask him to chant MahaMantra 16 round daily without any Namaparadha,Vaishnavaparadh and SevaParadha till the end of his life. Also you do the same thing with your Cola Mantra and follow your friend parallely.

Then compare your self with your friend and present the result here. Our next generation will follow your advice then.

Pranam
Dasanudas
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:39:45 +0530
QUOTE(dasanudas @ May 21 2005, 03:02 PM)
Elpis do another round of experiment. Ask one of your friend to help you. Ask him to chant MahaMantra 16 round daily without any Namaparadha,Vaishnavaparadh and SevaParadha till the end of his life. Also you do the same thing with your Cola Mantra and follow your friend parallely.

But then, for the comparison to be fair, Elpis would also have to chant the Cola Mantra without any aparadhas. Someone will have to draw an outline of the aparadhas involved. "Preach not the glories of the Cola to the inimical." (Nama-aparadha.) "Before honoring the Cola, ensure that rules of ritual purity are observed. Cola is not to be taken casually." (Seva-aparadha.) "Blaspheme not the great souls who market the Cola world-wide." (Caulava-aparadha.) "I am the Cola, your drink; you shall have no other drinks beside me." (General theology.)
Elpis - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:46:45 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 21 2005, 09:59 AM)
Well, you've certainly proven that if people mumble mantras without meditating on their meaning, it hardly makes a difference in practice what you may mumble. No arguments there. smile.gif

Come on. You were the one who helped clarify things for me and giving me references to literature on the topic when Suhotra gave me dIkSA mantras in January 1998. You should know that I was one of the devotees there who did try to focus my mind on hearing the words of the mantra rather than just mumbling.

And, for the record, I have, for longer peiods, carefully chanted both the mahA-mantra and the dIkSA mantras, meditating on the meaning of each word following the explanations giving by the previous teachers. I am not whimsical. I carefully read all the literature on the mantras that I could get my hands on and I asked my gurus about various aspects of chanting and understanding the mantras. So please do not insinuate that I simply mumbled the mantras with no deeper understanding or attempt to understand. This is not the case. From the depth of my heart, I can tell you that I did make a sincere effort to follow the practice of sAdhana as outlined by ISKCON and later by Tripurari.

In any case, my conclusion remains the same: Even with concentration and meditation on the meaning of the mantras, no real effect came. Not to me, at least.
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:51:41 +0530
Apologies if my post came across as insinuating, I didn't mean to question your sincerity in that regard. I just find it hard to conceive the experiences wouldn't differ if one actually followed the Names to where they lead. Then again, I didn't have much success in that in my IGM days, either.


QUOTE(Elpis @ May 21 2005, 03:16 PM)
In any case, my conclusion remains the same: Even with concentration and meditation on the meaning of the mantras, no real effect came.  Not to me, at least.

To this, someone might say that you didn't have the live mantra. smile.gif
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 19:54:14 +0530
QUOTE
I can tell you that I did make a sincere effort to follow the practice of sAdhana as outlined by ISKCON and later by Tripurari.

Maybe that's part of the problem Elpis, many people suffered from those institutions in their practice as they didn't have proper diksha and could not give that.

namaskar,

jijaji
nabadip - Sat, 21 May 2005 21:36:26 +0530
About Nightshades: Potatoes and tomatoes were not introduced to India, I believe, when the Hari Bhakti Vilas was compiled. The question then arises whether they should not be shunned also by Gaudiyas. They are a much used item on the Bengali menue.

Anthroposophical medicine has a sophisticated approach to qualifying food items as well as sources of remedies and other material things. For anthroposophs nightshades are items to avoid, for instance in case of cancer, since the plant shows massive growth as a characteristic, which is also a trait of cancer.
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 21:41:33 +0530
QUOTE
About Nightshades: Potatoes and tomatoes were not introduced to India, I believe, when the Hari Bhakti Vilas was compiled.

Thanks for that...that says heaps right there!

namaskar,

jijaji
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 21:42:41 +0530
QUOTE(nabadip @ May 21 2005, 05:06 PM)
About Nightshades: Potatoes and tomatoes were not introduced to India, I believe, when the Hari Bhakti Vilas was compiled. The question then arises whether they should not be shunned also by Gaudiyas. They are a much used item on the Bengali menue.

That's a good question there. If memory serves, they aren't offered in Jagannath Mandir in Puri. However, I don't think there's anything in the text itself to suggest a boycott of all nightshades.

Both Tomato and Potato came to Europe from the Americas in the 1600s, and only became more popular in the 1800s. Initially they were in the reputation of being the foodstuffs of the lower classes of the society.

From a practical point of view, you wouldn't be left with much if you dropped potatos from the menu.
Advaitadas - Sat, 21 May 2005 22:17:52 +0530
QUOTE(nabadip @ May 21 2005, 04:06 PM)
About Nightshades: Potatoes and tomatoes were not introduced to India, I believe, when the Hari Bhakti Vilas was compiled. The question then arises whether they should not be shunned also by Gaudiyas. They are a much used item on the Bengali menue.


Potatoes (Alu) are mentioned twice in Govinda Lilamrita (written before the year 1600, at Radhakund) - verses 3.92 and 3.100
Rad - Sat, 21 May 2005 22:26:30 +0530
QUOTE
From a practical point of view, you wouldn't be left with much if you dropped potatos from the menu.


Here's a substitue recipe for eggplant parmignon that's not half bad:

Vegan Potato Parmignan

Use a loaf pan
1. a layer of homemade pasta sauce
2. a layer of sliced potatos
3. whole grain bread crumbs ( blend up slicces of whole grain toast)
4. parmesan veggy cheese alternative
5 olive oil
6 another layer of each
7. bake at 350-400 degrees for 45 minutes
Madhava - Sat, 21 May 2005 22:43:18 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 21 2005, 05:47 PM)
Potatoes (Alu) are mentioned twice in Govinda Lilamrita (written before the year 1600, at Radhakund) - verses 3.92 and 3.100

Curious. Did they reach India the other route, then? Because the time of its arrival to Europe is undisputed.

Let's have the verses here for reference.

baddha-rambhA-navya-garbha-tan-navya-mukulAMzayoH |
mAna-kandAmbu-kacvInAM mukhAMzasyAlukasya ca ||3.92||

Your translation: "Look, these banana flowers with their fresh blossoms, with Mana-roots and the vital parts of the water-roots with potatoes, carrots and pumpkins, are fried in ghi and dressed by Canaka paste in a circular fashion."

What's the word there for carrot? And 3.100:

baddha-kuSmANDa-baTikAH kacvI-mAnAlu-kandakaiH |
tikta-nAlIta-cUrNADhyAz cavikADhyAH parAH kRtAH ||3.100||

Your translation: "There are big pumpkin-pies with stems, arum, potatoes and sagara-roots. Some of these are mixed with jute-powder and cabika."

Monier-Williams translates Alu as "an esculent root, Arum Campanulatum". Adding: "in modern dialects applied to the yam, potatoe".

[attachmentid=1558]

Akyarak
(Nepali - bAko)
the bulb of an arum lily, Arum Campanulatum

The inside of the bulb is eaten as a polenta-like paste in times of hardship, after being peeled, dried, beaten and cooked. The 'eyes' or new sprouts of the bulb are poisonous to humans if consumed, as are the seeds. (Source - PDF)


Attachment: Image
Rad - Sat, 21 May 2005 23:39:19 +0530
QUOTE
To this, someone might say that you didn't have the live mantra. smile.gif


Someone might also say that unless one gets the Maha Mantra from Kamsa, for example, one probably has the live Maha Mantra.

As far as proper initiation goes, plenty has been said already from so many differnt sides of the issue, but at least Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, in Nama Bhajan seems to be saying that formal initiation is not all in all.

"A firm faith in Nam will be awakened in the heart after worshipping the Deity in this way for a long time; then at last they are bent on Nama-Bhajan in the company of devotees.
The case is different with those few lucky ones who have an exclusively firm faith in Krishna Nama; they take by the unbounded grace of Krishna, shelter at the feet of such a spiritual guide who is an ontologist of Nama, i.e. who has realised and does see the Swarup(form) of Nama. Of the rights of such a preceptor , Shri Mahaprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary still a guide is essential in Nama-Bhajan."

So one may try chanting, instead of sixteen rounds, one lakh of Nam daily as Sri Caitanya, Srila ACBSP, and other "orthodox line" preceptors have reccomended for their very sincere followers. And if one has taken diksha, one has faith in one's guru and one's guru has passed on before one receives knowledge of his sambandha with Radha and Krsna one can seek out a guru who can impart the necessary siksha.
jijaji - Sat, 21 May 2005 23:58:14 +0530
Friday, 25 March 2005
The Great Potato Debate

When it comes to veggies, almost everyone can agree on potatoes. But despite its popularity, the common brown potato has a colorful history that some researchers are still disputing.

While potatoes are believed to have arrived in Europe in the 1500s from the South American Andes, Agricultural Research Service botanist David M. Spooner has uncovered DNA evidence showing that early potatoes also came from South America's southwestern coast, in lowland Chile.

From outward appearances, modern potatoes would seem to have Chilean ancestors. European potato plants have wide leaflets like Chilean ones, and both are "long-day adapted," which means they require the longer days of summer to form tubers.

But in the 1930s, researchers started challenging the notion of the Chilean connection, arguing that the first potatoes to reach Europe came only from the Andes. They claimed Chilean potatoes couldn't have survived the long journey from their native country, down through the Straits of Magellan and across the Atlantic.

According to Spooner, who works in the ARS Vegetable Crops Research Unit at Madison, Wis., potato seeds can last several years and so could have easily survived the trip. But even more compelling are data he recently assessed with colleagues at the International Potato Center in Lima, Peru, and the Central Potato Research Institute in Shimla, India.

The researchers surveyed an assortment of potatoes from India considered to be remnants of some of the first potatoes to Europe. They found that these descendants share specific molecular traits with potatoes from Chile--not the Andes.

Still, some argue that Chilean potatoes weren't introduced to Europe until after the famous 1840s Irish potato famine, to rescue the crop from the rot-causing late blight fungus. But, as Spooner points out, Chilean potatoes aren't known for having resistance to late blight.

With an increased understanding of modern potatoes' true ancestors, scientists can better preserve the world's potato plants to breed future varieties and realize the crop's natural disease- and insect-resistance potential.

Source: ARS. Erin Peabody. March 18, 2005.
Tapati - Sun, 22 May 2005 03:55:06 +0530
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 21 2005, 01:55 AM)
QUOTE
Tapati,May 21 2005, 03:37 AM
So, my beloved Kishora Kishori are not really installed Deities and my diet is totally wrong and I am doomed to take an animal birth in my next life

I sense some distress here on your part Tapati and I certainly did not try to upset you in bringing this issue up, however, it stands to reason that the deities in IGM are not properly installed as those institutions themselves are without proper diksha. So in that light if they who are installing those murtis are themselves without proper diksha ..how can they be properly installed? One has to have proper diksha to offer proper archana anyways..

Hearing these issues of IGM not having proper diksha or that their deities are not installed properly is very disturbing for those who are still conditioned by IGM and all that was taught in those institutions.
I can assure you most of us who were part of IGM and came to learn of these things found them very disturbing at 1st as well. It's like getting a big big bubble burst and it hurts, literally pulling the rug from under your feet, having long held beliefs and convictions shown to be not exactly as we were taught. When I first heard these things back in the late 70's from a friend who had taken diksha I was up in arms, ready to fight him tooth and nail.
I later calmed down obviously.

As far as your next birth as an animal is concerned if I may quote Madhava, as it doesn't seem you looked back at the the other recommended threads that address this;

QUOTE
I think the question draws from the following verse of Vishnu Yamala quoted in Hari Bhakti Vilasa (2.6):

    adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam
    pazu-yonim avApnoti dIkSA-virahito janaH

    "Of him who is not initiated, all of his deeds are devoid of value. Those men who are devoid of diksa take birth from an animal's womb."

However, we have to understand the context of this verse. It obviously refers to someone who does not intend to take diksa, thus being opposed to scriptural injunctions and blocked in his progress towards the ultimate goal of life. This merely reflects the words of the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita (16.23):

    yaH zAstra-vidhim utsRjya vartate kAma-kArataH
    na sa siddhim avApnoti na sukhaM na parAM gatim

    "For the one who rejects the injunctions of the scripture and acts according to his whims, for him there is no attainment of perfection, happines, or the supreme goal of life."

The aforementioned verse from the Hari Bhakti Vilasa certainly does not apply for one who is desirous to follow the path of the mahajanas by accepting diksa from a worthy guru in the future. Practically such a person has already taken diksa, for only time separates his desire from being tangible reality.

QUOTE
Ok, glad that's been made clear so I can prepare for my next birth.

Hope I am a sheltered house cat, then.


I assume you mean as a familier wink.gif

namaskar,

jijaji




I am not distressed in the sense of being worried for my next birth. I am confident in my spiritual path. I recognize that by Vaishnava standards I am doomed, but that does not concern me.

I do not think anyone has conclusively proven that there is no authentic diksha in the igm line. I myself could FEEL that Kishora Kishori were fully present. I don't ask anyone to agree with me on that. But, by your philosophy, if there is the slightest chance that BSS did take initiation as he claimed, and those Deities are in fact fully installed, doesn't one risk committing a grave offense by claiming otherwise? Isn't the safest course of action to simply point out the possibility as a possibility rather than a certainty?

I am certain that I will be given a birth in which I can continue to alleviate suffering and serve my Goddess in Her mission to do the same.

As for eggplant, while some people are extra sensitive to the solanine in the quantities found, others may find:


For people who tolerate eggplant well, the medicinal benefits are many. Eating the fruit can reduce swelling, clear stagnant blood, reduce bleeding, comfort bleeding hemorrhoids, and treat dysentery.

Eggplant's ample bioflavonoids may be beneficial in preventing strokes and hemorrhages. The fruit contains the phytochemical monoterpene, an antioxidant helpful in preventing heart disease and cancer. The National Cancer Institute has been examining vegetables of the nightshade family, especially eggplant, to see if they may inhibit the production of steroidal hormones that encourage tumor growth. Eggplant may also prevent the oxidation of cells that leads to cancer growth.

For scorpion bites, apply raw eggplant directly on the affected area. For frostbite, prepare a tea of eggplant, bring it to room temperature, and apply a compress to affected areas.


http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch67.html

Blessed be--

Tapati

jijaji - Sun, 22 May 2005 08:27:58 +0530
QUOTE
I am not distressed in the sense of being worried for my next birth. I am confident in my spiritual path.

Being confidant in your spiritual path is good, I myself struggle a lot at times I have to be honest. I am currently trying to improve on that by some simple bhajana and understanding of this path, as I am doomed or blessed (take whichever you like) to always be pulled back in some manner. I am trying to see it as Krishna's mercy frankly
QUOTE
I recognize that by Vaishnava standards I am doomed, but that does not concern me
I don’t think your doomed at all and maybe are exaggerating a bit when you say that.
QUOTE
I do not think anyone has conclusively proven that there is no authentic diksha in the igm line.
That IGM does not have authentic Diksha is really water under the bridge. Maybe it has not been proven to you, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that IGM does have diksha. In fact there is undeniable evidence that points to them not having diksha. However for someone to understand that they need to be open and willing to understanding what those reasons are.
I don’t think I need to go into that evidence as it has been discussed here a million times and validated by traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava Gurus outside IGM to many of us here. I will say that I have authenticated for myself that IGM does not have proper diksha.
Also Tapati my post to you before was not to ‘demean’ you in any manner by suggesting you were 'distressed', but just to say that many of 'us' in fact, were very disturbed when we first heard about these things as well.
QUOTE
I myself could FEEL that Kishora Kishori were fully present.
I am not saying you didn’t have a spiritual experience or did not feel Krishna’s presence, but perhaps it was a partial experience that seemed at the time to be all inclusive based on the limited exposure to Gaudiya Vaishnavism we had back then. Still that does not mean that IGM have properly installed deities according to scriptural standards.
I am a bit curious why, if you felt Radha Krishna to be fully present, did you leave that path altogether?
QUOTE
I don't ask anyone to agree with me on that. But, by your philosophy, if there is the slightest chance that BSS did take initiation as he claimed, and those Deities are in fact fully installed, doesn't one risk committing a grave offense by claiming otherwise?
Are you familiar with some of the claims BSS made that were rejected by the recognized Gaudiya Pandits of his day, like he got diksha in a dream as well as so many other strange claims? Also are you at all familier with what occured in the GM after he passed away?
One could also risk seeing IGM as the sole repository of Sri Chaitanya’s religion rejecting an entire tradition and make grave offense to all the other Vaishnavas outside IGM, which by the way, IGM have maligned and spoken badly about in a horrible manner for decades, calling them black snakes, sahajiyas and worse.
To me it’s like accepting fundamental Christians who claim they have the right to high-jack Christianity and put whatever innovations they see fit upon it, totally ignoring generations of orthodox followers and claiming they are ‘the only true Christians’ and calling all other Christians sinners who don’t follow there newer version.
Also are you not concerned of risking offense by rejecting the tradition altogether, like you say you have?
QUOTE
Isn't the safest course of action to simply point out the possibility as a possibility rather than a certainty?

Well I think rather than guess and ‘play it safe’ it would be better to try and understand what the acaryas of the tradition have given (specifically the Gosvamis) in regards to matters like Diksha and Archana etc.That shows the standard really.
QUOTE
I am certain that I will be given a birth in which I can continue to alleviate suffering and serve my Goddess in Her mission to do the same.

That is great..your lucky to have such conviction..
QUOTE
As for eggplant, while some people are extra sensitive to the solanine in the quantities found, others may find:
Nightshades are and will always be trouble for some and not others, and many caution their usage, no use to battle incessantly over that in my opinion.

I wish you well..

namaskar,

jijaji
lbcVisnudas - Sun, 22 May 2005 11:21:00 +0530
Radhe!
I am not taking sides in this, but wanted to confirm that nightshades do increase the cox-2 enzyme and therefore painful inflammation and swelling in osteoarthritics. This may be an issue for those who are taking cold water baths and doing 1-3 lakh Japa sitting on the ground.
Jai radhe!
Madanmohan das - Sun, 22 May 2005 14:21:57 +0530
There is a sloka in Padyavali also cited in CC to the effect that Sri Nama does not wait for diksa, purascarana etc., I can't find it right now , but if anyone has it handy it would be worth scrutinizing here
Tapati - Sun, 22 May 2005 15:05:57 +0530
QUOTE(jijaji @ May 21 2005, 06:57 PM)
QUOTE
I am not distressed in the sense of being worried for my next birth. I am confident in my spiritual path.


Being confidant in your spiritual path is good, I myself struggle a lot at times I have to be honest. I am currently trying to improve on that by some simple bhajana and understanding of this path, as I am doomed or blessed (take whichever you like) to always be pulled back in some manner. I am trying to see it as Krishna's mercy frankly

QUOTE
I recognize that by Vaishnava standards I am doomed, but that does not concern me


I don’t think your doomed at all and maybe are exaggerating a bit when you say that.

QUOTE
I myself could FEEL that Kishora Kishori were fully present.


I am not saying you didn’t have a spiritual experience or did not feel Krishna’s presence, but perhaps it was a partial experience that seemed at the time to be all inclusive based on the limited exposure to Gaudiya Vaishnavism we had back then. Still that does not mean that IGM have properly installed deities according to scriptural standards.

I am a bit curious why, if you felt Radha Krishna to be fully present, did you leave that path altogether?

Also are you not concerned of risking offense by rejecting the tradition altogether, like you say you have?

QUOTE
I am certain that I will be given a birth in which I can continue to alleviate suffering and serve my Goddess in Her mission to do the same.


That is great..your lucky to have such conviction..
I wish you well..

namaskar,

jijaji



Leaving aside the endless debate about diksha and IGM and intallation, etc., I wanted to answer your question about Radha and Krishna and leaving the tradition. (And isn't there a partial manifestation even in uninstalled representations?)

I reject the (in my opinion) man made constructs concerning Them, not the Deities Themselves. My outlook is that there aren't many Gods and Goddesses lining up to be worshipped by different groups, just that each group sees Them differently. I am simply serving Them in a different way and under a different guise. If I am offending Them by doing so, I doubt I would feel Their grace manifest so often in my life.

I am just as confident that you can achieve Their grace serving Them as you are presently.

It would be wonderful if we could all find a way to be confident and content in our own form of service and yet support others willingly in performing theirs.

Bright Blessings on your devotional service--

Tapati



Hari Saran - Sun, 22 May 2005 15:17:51 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ May 22 2005, 08:51 AM)
There is a sloka in Padyavali also cited in CC to the effect that Sri Nama does not wait for diksa, purascarana etc., I can't find it right now , but if anyone has it handy it would be worth scrutinizing here



29- ) The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. Simply by touching the holy name with one's tongue, immediately effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy names does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.*

Padyavali

Now -perhaps- I think I understand why, regardless of which institution may promotes the chant of the Holy Names, its followers experiment some kind of bliss, and attraction for it.
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 22 May 2005 15:39:05 +0530
QUOTE
But I cannot resist questioning one particular response: please don't take offence Tarunji, but in the quote from you below, one could insert the name of anyone from Bhaktivedanta Swami, to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, or even Kirtanananda or the GBC: try it and see.


First of all, I am sorry if I disturbed you with my post.
My intention was not in the slightest to stir up some ISKCON/GM-thing, no way.

Why do you mention this:
QUOTE
You could also try changing the topic from "eating eggplants" to "picking money from karmis in airports" or "putting all your disciples' money in a Swiss bank account under your own name"!


This is totally off-topic, and I was not even thinking that way...
blink.gif

Sure, if you want to compare the individuals you mentioned with the direct associates of Sriman Mahaprabhu, you are free to do that.
Do not put something in my own thoughts,please.

The topic was about questioning/arguing with the authors (the Goswamis).
Nothing about ISKCON/GM...

Whatever...

I also strongly feel that one should not project the time/place/circumstance-argument onto the lives of the Goswamis. This will never apply to the eternal associates of the Lord.
smile.gif
nabadip - Sun, 22 May 2005 16:06:35 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ May 22 2005, 12:09 PM)

I also strongly feel that one should not project the time/place/circumstance-argument onto the lives of the Goswamis. This will never apply to the eternal associates of the Lord.
smile.gif



Why not? They lived and acted very much in a particular time, under Muslim occupation, had strong connection to places and were subject to circumstances beyond their control. Sanatana, at the time of meeting Sri Gauranga, was a Derwish, not a vaishnava in outward appearance and he considered himself untouchable due to that. He also underwent a learning/growth-experience (see the red shawl story).

Finally, how would the Gosvamis be exemplary to us, if they were not very much rooted in time, place and circumstance?

However, I think I know what you may mean: One should not confine them to a vision of temporality and a particularly defined cultural setting, and even their physicality. They have all of that, but are much more than that also.
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 22 May 2005 16:20:50 +0530
QUOTE
However, I think I know what you may mean: One should not confine them to a vision of temporality and a particularly defined cultural setting, and even their physicality. They have all of that, but are much more than that also.


Yeah, good shot. biggrin.gif

Sure they also "walked the earth", but like you said, no confining.

Easily we "drag" them down to the level of ordinary souls and try to argue with them.

Also I meant it that way:
If we believe that they are eternal associates of the Lord, empowered fully by Him, so then we also might accept that they are beyond "try and error".
When they wrote down something, and this is my subjective viewpoint, it surely is free of any defect and can be applied to all times, places and circumstances.

Its not that their statements have no value because maybe they didnt know how crazy the future will become.
Like I said, I believe in their words, even if I cannot follow them fully right now.
But therefore I pray to them for their mercy, since I know that my view of the world and beyond is limited by my "idiot within", the almighty mind.

Kamala - Sun, 22 May 2005 16:23:58 +0530
It is not a question of being "disturbed" by your post (see post #84 above), rather I wanted to point out that notwithstanding your (or any person's) affiliation with and appreciation for any particular spiritual authority, the "argument from authority" in itself is inadequate to convince those outside that frame of reference. To convince others, the argument must be supplemented by something more; for example personal experience, rational analysis, etc.

I raised the ISKCON examples because that is the historical context for the "argument from authority" for many on this forum. But I could just have easily have inserted Osama bin Laden, Jim Jones - or Mother Teresa, Jesus Christ or St Francis of Assisi for that matter. Try to understand: it's not about you, it's not about me, and it's not about ISKCON: it's a philosophical point that I am trying to make.

I do accept that for a practitioner of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, it is legitimate to say "I accept the Goswamis as authorities without question as I consider them eternal associates of the Lord". This is an entirely reasonable stance from the subjective point of view of the practitioner. And I acknowledge that it is reasonable to expect a participant on this forum to respect the Goswamis. However, I do not think I am out of order for suggesting that some of their teachings are absolute and some are relative. The prohibitions on eating eggplants, carrots etc I suspect are in the latter category and may be related to various "time, place and circumstance" factors that others have pointed out in this thread.

Personally, I prefer to focus my allegiance, puny as it is, on Sri Siksastakam, where "arguments from authority" and emphasis on following brahminical rules are conspicuous by their absence!

Anyway, I should apologise for just exploring these ideas intellectually. I appreciate that you are practicing a life of bhajan and so such arguments are like dry ashes to you. flowers.gif
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 22 May 2005 16:37:47 +0530
Radhe!

I understand your point, but like you said as a Gaudiya-Vaishnava-aspirant, I take the Goswamis as an authority, although I don´t claim to live up to their standards 100%.

QUOTE
However, I do not think I am out of order for suggesting that some of their teachings are absolute and some are relative. The prohibitions on eating eggplants, carrots etc I suspect are in the latter category and may be related to various "time, place and circumstance" factors that others have pointed out in this thread.


It would be good to see a reference where these categories (absolute/relative) appear in their writings, otherwise everyone can just take the points he likes to follow as absolute and the ones he dislikes as relative.

The Sikshastakam-argument is nice, but then why did Sriman Mahaprabhu order the Goswamis to write more and elaborate more on His teachings? If He thought:
"Well, these cool 8 verses should be enough!" biggrin.gif Then again, why spend SO MUCH time to educate f.e. Srila Rupa Goswamipad and Srila Sanatana Goswamipad?

No need to apologize, I got your point.
Honestly, I am not leading a life of bhajan, mine is bhajan-abhasa... biggrin.gif
Madanmohan das - Sun, 22 May 2005 17:04:35 +0530
QUOTE(Hari Saran @ May 22 2005, 09:47 AM)
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ May 22 2005, 08:51 AM)
There is a sloka in Padyavali also cited in CC to the effect that Sri Nama does not wait for diksa, purascarana etc., I can't find it right now , but if anyone has it handy it would be worth scrutinizing here



29- ) The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. Simply by touching the holy name with one's tongue, immediately effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy names does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.*

Padyavali

Now -perhaps- I think I understand why, regardless of which institution may promotes the chant of the Holy Names, its followers experiment some kind of bliss, and attraction for it.


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Experiment some kind of bliss biggrin.gif biggrin.gif I like that
Mina - Sun, 22 May 2005 22:52:57 +0530
The Alu in question is the indigenous Indian yam, which is a purple colored tuber unrelated to the all those varieties of potatoes originating in South America.
braja - Sun, 22 May 2005 23:08:09 +0530
Can anyone lend any support to the idea that arbi (colocasia) is Sri Radha's favorite? I've heard this in Vrindavan, where the tubers are slow cooked in a lot of ghee. They look like baby taro.
dasanudas - Sun, 22 May 2005 23:46:21 +0530
QUOTE(Mina @ May 22 2005, 12:22 PM)
The Alu in question is the indigenous Indian yam, which is a purple colored tuber unrelated to the all those varieties of potatoes originating in South America.




I think Ramdas ji is talking about what is in bengali called "Ranga - Alu" . Is it right?
Advaitadas - Mon, 23 May 2005 00:17:53 +0530
Misthi Alu, Rangin Alu, Angrezi Alu, Arum, purple bulbs - I will just keep the translation 'potato', without specifying whether it came from South America or is indiginous ancient Indian. This type of potato or the other........ cool.gif
The point about the carrots is well taken, though...
Hari Saran - Mon, 23 May 2005 04:32:57 +0530
user posted image
[center]Potato Shaped Pots of Peru

Pre-Columbian pottery from Peru takes the shape of a potato. The pots held special oils and liquids

The potato originated in the Andes of Bolivia and Peru. It was there, in 1537 that the Spanish conquistadors discovered the potato. From there it traveled to Europe, then back to the United States. Peru's Inca Indians first cultivated the potato in about 200 B.C. This vegetable had many uses to the Incas. Raw slices were placed on broken bones, carried to prevent rheumatism, and eaten with other foods to prevent indigestion. The ancient Inca Indians valued the potato not only as a food, but as a measure of time. Units of time were correlated to how long it took a potato to cook.



user posted image
YAM
The edible starchy tuberous root of various vines of the genus Dioscorea. .
[/center]

Yam, of West African origin < Fulani [a West African pastoral people and their language] nyami, "to eat" from Wolof [a West African people of Senegal and their language] ñam, "food", "to eat" or Mandingo [a group of peoples and languages of the Niger valley of West Africa] ñambu, manioc (also called cassava, the source of tapioca). [from AHD]

Yam

Mush potatoes with butter are a temptation, but yam soup is healthier and way more palatable; try for the next Ekadasi. rolleyes.gif
My mouth is watering, already...

http://www.foodmuseum.com/potatogallery122104/index.htm
DharmaChakra - Mon, 23 May 2005 17:59:15 +0530
Before everyone starts picking on poor eggplant eaters, fallen as they are, or, worse, everyone gives up eggplant, causing a depression in the worldwide aubergine market and plunging us into the Dark Ages again, I want to throw a quote of Madhava's out here for consideration:
QUOTE(Madhava a few pages ago)
With regards to the mind being in sattva, I suppose I should clarify that the influence of many such rules and guidelines only really becomes tangible in the course of the practice of smarana (or other very focused and sensitive practices) in the effects of mental clarity.
I for one really hope I get to the stage that I start eliminating foods as clouding my mind. However, what good is rejecting eggplant when I'm completely addicted to the new Battlestar Galactica series on TV? On a scale of subtlety, I'm putting eggplant up quite high. Let's not replace a minor virtue for a major one here. Its not, 'yea, I haven't chanted much lately, but thank goodness I gave up eggplant years ago...!'
brajamani - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:16:34 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ May 19 2005, 12:51 PM)
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 19 2005, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE
Yes traditional Gaudiya Gurus have said that one should not take prasadam at the Iskcon/GM temples, I won't quote the actual sources as to not cause a 'widespread panic'. I will say it does not come from just one traditional Gaudiya Guru alone, but is a general consensus it seems.

Yes, that seems to be the general consensus indeed. The idea is that after proper diksha comes proper archana, and with proper archana come proper bhoga-offering. I touched the topic in December at Vraja Journal.




Thanks Madhava, good points. I really appreciate this "harsh" approach, since diksha is not a cheap thing, right.

I will try to skip the prasadam in the ISKCON-center whenever possible, but every now and then is, like you said, not that bad, especially if you know the devotee who cooked it.

From all the food I eat, 99% is cooked by myself, sometimes Moni cooks.

Sorry for putting this issue to public.
smile.gif




How does this make you feel TarunJi?
I know you like to go to Sadhu Sanga and cook for the devotees...what will it be like if you say that you cannot honor prasadam with them anymore? Do you think that is when they will start looking at you as an outsider and not be so welcoming and understanding?

I`m just curious becauseI run with a namahatta group myself, as you know.

With admiration,
brajamani
braja - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:40:36 +0530
For the record, these kind of restrictions aren't unique, as I think was mentioned earlier. It's not an "anti-party attack" on anyone. I recall reading that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati would only accept food cooked by his own disciples. And, I guess, prasad from "recognized" temples, e.g. Jagannatha maha-prasad.

If memory serves, I think it was also an issue when some Gaudiya Math members wouldn't eat ISKCON prasad. I even lived in an ISKCON temple once where a group who had returned to ISKCON would not eat the temple prasad unless it was cooked by their own members.

Much of this is probably alien to many of us, who follow Garfield's sea food diet--"I see food and I eat it."
Elpis - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:22:17 +0530
Eating can be an important thing socially, and wanting to spend time with someone without wanting to eat with them strikes me as a little odd. Sharing a meal with someone is an intimate way of associating with others. A refusal to do this may be taken the wrong way.
Rasaraja dasa - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:42:53 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

Braja is correct in how GM approached this very situation. Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami also gave similar instructions to his disciples and even, in some circumstances, discouraged taking praasad from Godbrothers who were critical of his mission although I would want to check folio when I return home... if I ever do!

Rasaraja dasa
brajamani - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:37:28 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Jun 9 2005, 08:52 AM)
Eating can be an important thing socially, and wanting to spend time with someone without wanting to eat with them strikes me as a little odd.  Sharing a meal with someone is an intimate way of associating with others.  A refusal to do this may be taken the wrong way.




I agree with this 100%.

They way I see it if people are busy eating they are less likley to be fighting smile.gif
TarunGovindadas - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:44:27 +0530
I either cook myself or I do not eat anymore...

I follow my Gurudeva´s instruction.

Maybe I will "fall-down" on some festival days like Janmastami, but even then I could cook 15 subjis... tongue.gif

Jay Sri Radhe.
jijaji - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:51:16 +0530
I dont like to eat food prepared by just any one anymore...

people are nuts and unclean out there brothers & sisters..

biggrin.gif blink.gif
TarunGovindadas - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:59:14 +0530
As a teacher in a state-school I sometimes have to be at "lunchs" or "dinners" like on X-mas.

So, yes, it is a social function, and traditionally I eat french fries (if they fry seperately from the dead) and a huge salad. Or two salads. tongue.gif

On Saturday, I very good friend of mine marries.
So we are invited and sure I will eat something acceptable.

Baba said "as far as possible".
How can I sit on a wedding without eating a bite?

Anyway, my good friend knows the "meat, fish, eggs, onion, garlic-story".
Lets see what will be.
I guess tons of green salad, yeah!
laugh.gif
brajamani - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:45:27 +0530
I have always been under the impression that so long as anyone offers food prepared for Lord Krishna that the remnents was considered prasadam regardless if it had a bhooga offering before being prepared or not. All of this leads me to believe that only 'initiated' folks can offer food, is this the traditional stance?

In New Vrindaban not all of the food is offered to RVC. Most of the devotee and guest food is simply offered under a picture. Now I`m sure the picture was not installed so I cannot see that as the case.

It`s interesting to see that not only ISCKCON/GM is the only group that is very secular unsure.gif .
brajamani - Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:53:32 +0530
QUOTE
Baba said "as far as possible".


As far as possiable what? That you can eat food that has not been offered and that has been cooked by meat eaters? I`d rather eat at the ISKCON temple laugh.gif

I find it odd that you would eat at a work luncheon but not with devotees at the temple.

I dont go to the weddings, the cookouts, the 'what have you`s' unless I can cook it and offer it myself. Does this piss some friends off?...Yep, and I realy dont care. After awhile you just dont get invited anymore to the big 'Flesh Off'.

In my case my circle of friends is very small and they understand my position on this clearly and it does not stop them from coming to my place to eat instead laugh.gif

wishing you all well.
me
Lancer - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:13:32 +0530
I don't know if my confusion is related enough or needs a new thread, but I was wondering the other day how madhukari begging works in this case. Does the sadhu need to be extra careful to ask only at the house of initiated Vaisnavas?

Also, similar question, ACBS used to teach that food was "pure" if it was paid for, but maybe that only meant it was offerable, and not eatable. I vaguely recall there was sastric support for this in Manu-samhita. Anyone able to clarify?

I apologize for these questions, but the food issue is looming large for me, as I hope to take initiation one of these days (whenever the Vaisnavas are merciful to me), and my mother has already told me that she "doesn't like [my] religion because it has such picky rules [about food]" -- I warned her that I wouldn't be able to eat her cooking after my initiation.

Dandavats,
Lancer
braja - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:32:54 +0530
Xmas Dinner, 1987. The first visit home since joining the Hare Krsnas. My older sister is visiting from out of town and upon seeing me walking up the driveway bursts into tears and runs into the house, saying that I look like I have come from a POW camp. My mother has made an entire vegetarian dinner--a big thing in a carnivorous Catholic house located in a country built on animal slaughter--but I don't eat karmi food so I sit there picking around the discomfit.

Oh, the (lack of) humanity!


Each of us makes a daily decision based upon our realization. If we have taken diksha and been instructed in a certain manner, our application will be of a certain type. If not, or if our life is not in accordance with the context in which those instructions, our decisions will be of a different nature. As DC mentioned earlier, for many of us, where we eat has little influence compared to what we do.
DharmaChakra - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:57:24 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 9 2005, 02:23 PM)
QUOTE
Baba said "as far as possible".


As far as possiable what? That you can eat food that has not been offered and that has been cooked by meat eaters? I`d rather eat at the ISKCON temple laugh.gif

I find it odd that you would eat at a work luncheon but not with devotees at the temple.

I dont go to the weddings, the cookouts, the 'what have you`s' unless I can cook it and offer it myself. Does this piss some friends off?...Yep, and I realy dont care. After awhile you just dont get invited anymore to the big 'Flesh Off'.

In my case my circle of friends is very small and they understand my position on this clearly and it does not stop them from coming to my place to eat instead laugh.gif

wishing you all well.
me


I posted this in another thread, but I took 'as far as possible' goes hand in hand with the instruction to 'tactfully avoid'. The instruction really is to avoid situations where you would be asked to eat the prasadam.

Personally, I see this as balancing eating 'others' prasadam against acting rude and offensive. Let's face it, if you are invited into someone's house and they offer you food, its rude to say no. Its one thing to say 'I don't eat meat, I don't eat eggs', but if they provide you with pasta, especially if they prepare it for you, its rude to not take some. More tactful is not to go to the house, no?

The instruction is not to go to your local IGM temple, wait until they hand out plates, then refuse to take one, saying 'NO, I don't eat YOUR food' That's just plain rude and offensive. Best to just quietly take your leave before they serve out.
DharmaChakra - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:09:11 +0530
QUOTE(Lancer @ Jun 9 2005, 02:43 PM)
I apologize for these questions, but the food issue is looming large for me, as I hope to take initiation one of these days (whenever the Vaisnavas are merciful to me), and my mother has already told me that she "doesn't like [my] religion because it has such picky rules [about food]" -- I warned her that I wouldn't be able to eat her cooking after my initiation.

Dandavats,
Lancer


This is probably going to label me as some kind of neo-liberal around here, but personally, especially where family is involved, I look more to the intent of the prepared food than the contents. Note, this is within the framework of 'no meat, no eggs'. For example, Thanksgiving is always such a fun time. Every year I field the same phone call from my mother, 'I just don't know what you eat!' (umm.. I've been doing this for 15 years blink.gif ). I usually bring food.

My wife's mother is a very accomplished chef, so she likes to cook a large coordinated meal. But she is very respectful and always very carefully makes vegetarian alternatives to the main dishes. She puts much thought and effort into appeasing us, and having us 'fit in' at the same time. Yes, she uses onion and garlic, but I've always taken this as a small sacrifice on my part compared to the large sacrifice she makes.

Personally, to me its rude and crude to say 'no' to people that have gone out of their normal routine to accomidate you. (and by accomidate, I mean prepare vegetarian meals outside of their normal cooking.. expecting them to understand onion and garlic is just too far out... nevermind eggplant biggrin.gif )
Advaitadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:18:14 +0530
It is very sensitive indeed, especially if you are lovingly invited by a good friend, who is either not initiated or just not really up to the mark. How strict Mahaprabhu was can be seen in his instructions to Raghunath Das Gosvami, who had invited him for 2 years for prasad paid for by his parents. Mind you, his parents were even devotees but more of the Sunday Feast type, with two feet firmly in the world, but at the same time giving some donations to Vaishnavas. Mahaprabhu said: visayira anna khele molin hoy mon - molin mon hole nohe krsnera smaran - "If you eat grains from materialists your mind will be polluted, and with a polluted mind you cannot remember Krishna." I must say I usually have bad experiences from eating Iskcon's prasad - a degraded consciousness the following night and morning. The Vedic/Vaishnava rule is actually that the most advanced sadhus or brahmins cook and serve the food, because the consciousness of the cook and server are transferred to the food, but in Iskcon serving and cooking is considered a menial service, so it is done by the newest, and thus least pure, devotees in the community. In Amsterdam prasad is even served by guests! So I decide to just eat the subji from now on. The impurities of the cook, donor and server are inserted into the grains, not in fruits, drinks or veggies - that is why Brahmins accept such things from lower caste people too. When Mahaprabhu travelled in South India he would accept non-grain foods from lower caste Vaishnavas too.
Lancer - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:35:18 +0530
I appreciate everyone's comments, and yes, my mother for the last 30 years (that's when I first read one of ABCS's books and horrified the family by becoming vegetarian) has gotten used to going out of her way to accommodate me, and one of the rituals of family Thanksgiving celebrations is the separate dish of stuffing that my mother bakes especially for me, in its own dish sans any turkey meat or drippings. The yams lost their marshmallow topping (gelatin) a long, long time ago.

Considering how fallen I am already (and everybody knows it), I don't know if I want to be known as well as a "neo-liberal" regarding matters of faith rolleyes.gif but I won't claim that I have the niSTha quality that would allow me to be as strict as Mahaprabhu or his associates, especially when "lovingly invited".

Some days I think it's harder to decide what to do than to actually do it.

Dandavats,
Lancer
Advaitadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:35:32 +0530
It is interesting to note that the prasad was condemned by Mahaprabhu not even for the person who cooked it but just for the person who donated the money for it. So apart from the diksa issue in IGM, there may be a donor-issue. Often Iskcon temples are propped up by rich merchants, who donate money for the Sunday Feast preparations. Mahaprabhu's closing statements on the matter are interesting too -

bishoyir anna hoy rAjas nimantran; data, bhokta - duhara molin hoy man
ihar sankoce Ami eto din nilo; bhAlo holo - jAniyA se Apni chArilo

(CC Antya 6, 278-279)

"The food grains offered by a materialist consist of an invitation in the mode of passion, polluting the minds of both donor and recipient. Because I was shy about (Raghunath Das' invitations, not wanting to hurt him) I have eaten it thusfar. Very good that he gave up this style of invitation on his own initiative!"
Malatilata - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:44:27 +0530
QUOTE(Lancer @ Jun 9 2005, 06:43 PM)
I don't know if my confusion is related enough or needs a new thread, but I was wondering the other day how madhukari begging works in this case.  Does the sadhu need to be extra careful to ask only at the house of initiated Vaisnavas?


I don't know about all the sadhus, but one bengali babaji (at Radhakunda) told me that they only accept madhukari from Vrajavasi brahmanas' houses, not from others. They can accept some amaniya (not offered food items) from others, but not cooked food or prasada. And even from Vrajavasis preferably amaniya, since you never know to whom the food is offered, maybe to Siva, Ganesh etc. Not everybody offers to Krishna. So, they prefer to accept some amaniya and offer it themselves for their own Giridharis.

The babajis (I don't know about all of them) don't accept any prasada except fruits from foreigners, manipuris etc. - not even from bengali grihastas. Only from Vrajavasi brahmanas, whom they know to be devoted Krishna bhaktas and from some other babajis.

And if they accept prasada from Vrajavasis, they accept puris, pakoras and such things that are cooked in ghee, not rice or chapatis. And they can also accept laddus etc.

This babaji told that what we eat is very important. What we eat becomes our blood and that affects our mind and intelligence. And if our mind is all over the place our bhajan in destroyed. If a babaji eats for example from a grihasta, in whose mind is still some thoughts of sense enjoyment, these thoughts might enter the mind of the babaji thru the prasada accepted and if a babaji has thoughts of sense enjoyment in his mind, it is an aparadha to his babaji vesh.

After our discussion with babaji, Madhava concluded that this should not be the rule only for babajis, but to all the serious sadhakas, who wish to keep their mind clear and fresh for lila-smarana.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:09:14 +0530
QUOTE
As far as possiable what? That you can eat food that has not been offered and that has been cooked by meat eaters? I`d rather eat at the ISKCON temple


Well, I think you misread my post...

I do not take grains (anymore).
Usually only french fries (if they are fried separately) and tons of salad.

QUOTE
So I decide to just eat the subji from now on. The impurities of the cook, donor and server are inserted into the grains, not in fruits, drinks or veggies


Like said its a whole different thing if your life should belong to Sri Gurudeva...

Advaita das´s experience I can completely understand.
I realize the same. My consciousness sometimes is afflicted, depending on who cooked in the temple.

Eating is a very delicate subject matter. I also dont eat from my mother anymore, since more than 10 years...I regularly got sick, honestly.

Whoo, I remember the wonderful prasadam we were served at Sri Radhakunda after my diska (remember Madhava & Malati?).
In all my years, this was the most FAR-OUT prasadam I ever was served.
(My mleccha manners then being a whole different matter tongue.gif )
brajamani - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:13:13 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ Jun 10 2005, 05:39 AM)
Well, I think you misread my post...


Did I? You posted and I believe I read that BabaJi said dont eat ISKCON but you latter say you have to eat at luncheons for work. It does not matter if its just fries fruit or salad if its not offered right?

I`m saying that the salad and Freedom Fries being prepared for you is not only unoffered but contaminated because the kid preparing it is not doing it out of love and devotion for Krishna but only for a paycheck and his mind is prolly 1000 miles away off the task because its a cruddy service job.

With many respects and admiration for you, I just dont see how you can rationalize not eating food from people who are at least trying to please Krishna and offer it first but yet you`ll eat totally unoffered food prepared by a materialist.

Just because your BabaJi says no Hare`s food for you does/should not mean its 'ok' to eat at a restraunt or luncheon, no?

The point Im trying to get to is secularism which I`m trying to understand-ISKCON not ok, restraunts ok because at least its being prepared by someone other than an ISKCON devotee. blink.gif And yes I realize ISCKON and GM are just as secular tongue.gif

Please help me understand.

I ask because I attend Namahatta and partake of the food as you have once done so Im interested in these realizations.

I also pray that an attitude does not develop when you do cook at the temple...that only your food is accepatable. If this is the case, I would advise just not going to the sadhu sanga anymore. Also they will approach you if you didnt cook one day and refuse to eat in thier company which will open up a whole bag of worms, especially if you say something like ' I dont feel like eating, sick today' or something.

I served a few months in New Vrindaban. Everything was fine untill I got upset with the Indian bodied devotees being so pushy and opening office doors without knocking, ect..

To make it short- I was denied prasadam for two days by the Indian servers......that was when I left crying.gif

Love ya!
Brajamani
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:30:36 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

Look, brajamani, I am a teacher and I work now with 15 other human beings in a school.

Now, maybe twice a year we go out having something to eat.
X-mas and maybe some kind of "teacher-day" where we go out sightseeing something brilliant.

Like I said, most of the time I order salad and I offer it in my mind.
Big deal.

I guess Baba and Krishna understand these situations.

As far as "I don´t go to weddings"...
Sorry, I have A LOT of nice friends, some of them "non-devotees" (stupid term).
If I am invited to a marriage of such a good friend, and he goes nuts to take care that we get something acceptable to eat, like some cooked veggies and salad or fries, I will accept the offer. Maybe this is considered fallen, but honestly, I think it is ok to do so.
I am not living in seclusion and we are very social people.

So I try my best to follow the instructions of my Gurudeva while still living "in" the material world.

smile.gif
brajamani - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:32:03 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Jun 10 2005, 01:05 AM)
It is interesting to note that the prasad was condemned by Mahaprabhu not even for the person who cooked it but just for the person who donated the money for it. So apart from the diksa issue in IGM, there may be a donor-issue. Often Iskcon temples are propped up by rich merchants, who donate money for the Sunday Feast preparations. Mahaprabhu's closing statements on the matter are interesting too -

bishoyir anna hoy rAjas nimantran; data, bhokta - duhara molin hoy man
ihar sankoce Ami eto din nilo; bhAlo holo - jAniyA se Apni chArilo

(CC Antya 6, 278-279)

"The food grains offered by a materialist consist of an invitation in the mode of passion, polluting the minds of both donor and recipient. Because I was shy about (Raghunath Das' invitations, not wanting to hurt him) I have eaten it thusfar. Very good that he gave up this style of invitation on his own initiative!"



Advaitadas has a very good point here. In NV a vast majority of the bhooga is from guests since its a pilgrimage site for Hindus and many of them are just that, Hindu, so they may be more aligned with Shiva or Ganesh and feel that Krsna is just part of the whole playing field.

Thank you for that realization Ji tongue.gif
brajamani - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:06:04 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ Jun 10 2005, 08:00 AM)
Radhe Radhe!

Look, brajamani, I am a teacher and I work now with 15 other human beings in a school.

Now, maybe twice a year we go out having something to eat.
X-mas and maybe some kind of "teacher-day" where we go out sightseeing something brilliant.

Like I said, most of the time I order salad and I offer it in my mind.
Big deal.

I guess Baba and Krishna understand these situations.

As far as "I don´t go to weddings"...
Sorry, I have A LOT of nice friends, some of them "non-devotees" (stupid term).
If I am invited to a marriage of such a good friend, and he goes nuts to take care that we get something acceptable to eat, like some cooked veggies and salad or fries, I will accept the offer. Maybe this is considered fallen, but honestly, I think it is  ok to do so.
I am not living in seclusion and we are very social people.

So I try my best to follow the instructions of my Gurudeva while still living "in" the material world.

smile.gif



Im sorry but your statement does not add up for me, I see a double standard. I dont see the rationalization between denying food from devotees and eating at a restraunt, not mattering how many times its done in a year.

Many of the traditionalist here pounce on Prabhupada`s secularism but I`m starting to see it`s just the same here on the other side of the Kunda. Dont eat ISKCON (but restraunts are ok because it is not ISKCON blink.gif .)

Im a social person too. However I have come to the realization that many of these 'traditional' ceremonies are just another part of our attachment to the material world which we are instructed to sever to make room/time for more important things like bhajan and self realization. The more your in the world the harder it is to detach from it, the harder it is to detach from it makes it harder to remember Krishna at the time of death, am I right?

So instead of my wife and I running around trying to please our friends by going to events where they slaughter animals and eat sin I offer alternatives and take the lead in my dealings with friends and in turn they follow my lead by coming to my house where we serve them a wonderfull veggie meal that has been offered and give them best wishes on the new life together. I am not afaraid that they wont 'like' me anymore, I cant think for them. For the most part by my taking the leadership role in my peer group I feel that they have great respect for what I do and practice as opposed to being 'turned off' by my stance on such things. Heck, many of them even wear tulsi. I`m not gloating here, just making a point that I took a closer look at my circle and decided that I wanted no part of some of the activities and reshaped my relationships using love to persuade them to not just think I`m a kook and then not associate with me. Deep down I think they admire the effort of my sadhana because for whatever attachemts they have they cannot seem or sometimes even desire to cut the ties to them and they always have me around to remind them of this temporal state when things go wrong in thier life, normally due to some attachment they have where things are not working out right for them.
So your a teacher and you kinda come across to me that you feel you have to eat at the events. Well I was the CEO of McOpCo McDonald`s Restraunts for over 15 years and when a book about Krsna first hit my palms I was out of there. I traded 150K a year a car and 40 stores for a small business that will never see that amount so my spiritual practice will have less hinderance. I`m not saying dont go out and eat, Im just asking you to look at the situation that you will avoid ISKCON because BabaJi says so but restraunt food (even sparrodic) is ok. That is what confuses me.

QUOTE
Look, brajamani, I am a teacher and I work now with 15 other human beings in a school.


As you appear a bit perterb with me and my questioning I will let this rest. I just want you to know that I have not attacked you in any mannor...I`m just trying to sort this issue out and Im coming across alot of different perspectives and I would just like to iron them out for my own good. Trust me dude, Im the last to point fingers. cool.gif

My best wishes are to you biggrin.gif
Radhe!
Brajamani
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:27:11 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 10 2005, 05:36 AM)
Many of the traditionalist here pounce on Prabhupada`s secularism but I`m starting to see it`s just the same here on the other side of the Kunda. Dont eat ISKCON (but restraunts are ok because it is not ISKCON blink.gif .)

and

I`m not saying dont go out and eat, Im just asking you to look at the situation that you will avoid ISKCON because BabaJi says so but restraunt food (even sparrodic) is ok. That is what confuses me.

Radhe Radhe!

I would like to point out that our Gurudeva does not encourage eating at restaurants. His direction, as any Vaisnavas would advise, is to only eat food which has been offered to ones istadeva, by those serving in the same mood and in good consciousness. There is no standard specifically for ISKCON or Gaudiya Matha. The reason ISKCON was mentioned is because someone asked Baba about it. If one asked Baba about restaurants the instructions would be the same and if one were to relate it to eating from restaurants that serve meat the instructions would be even stronger.

When I was preparing to take diksa we asked Baba specifically about this instruction as not only am I married to a disciple of an ISKCON Guru, thus taking ISKCON Prasad, but I also travel 2-4 days per week and don’t always have facility to cook for myself which means I sometimes eat at restaurants. Baba said that when I am home it is ok to take food which is cooked by my wife and I should simply offer the bhoga to my Giridhari. While traveling I should simply do the best I can to eat food offered to Giridhari.

I believe this is what Tarun is trying to express. He will eat prasad offered at an ISKCON temple and under certain circumstances will eat food at a restaurant. Neither may always be ideal but he is trying to follow the instruction of his Gurudeva.

As a member of ISKCON I would refue Prasad cooked by someone who was adverse to my Gurudeva or who I thought was in bad consciousness. So nothing has changed. I won’t take Prasad offered by someone who is adverse to my Gurudev or the methods of worship given by my Gurudeva.

Remember your Srila Prabhupada gave the same instructions to his disciples so why anyone finds this to be such a heavy topic is beyond me.

Rasaraja dasa
brajamani - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:46:52 +0530
QUOTE
I believe this is what Tarun is trying to express. He will eat prasad offered at an ISKCON temple and under certain circumstances will eat food at a restaurant. Neither may always be ideal but he is trying to follow the instruction of his Gurudeva.


No he said that he will not eat prasadam from ISKCON.


QUOTE
Remember your Srila Prabhupada gave the same instructions to his disciples so why anyone finds this to be such a heavy topic is beyond me.


I dont own the right to Srila Prabhupada so he is not mine, nor am I a saraswata to the fullest extent. If you checked out some of my posts you would see that wink.gif

If you read thru the full thread I was gently reminding the traditionalists of just that:

Many of the traditionalist here pounce on Prabhupada`s secularism but I`m starting to see it`s just the same here on the other side of the Kunda.

With deepest warm respects,
brajamani
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:00:38 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

TG said he would follow his Gurudeva's instructions although he may "fall down" on certain occasions. I would at least take that to mean he will eat ISKCON Prasad when he deems it fitting. Regardless it is not Baba’s instructions to eat in a restaurant or that eating in a restaurant is ever deemed a better alternative than eating at an ISKCON event which is what I assume you thought when you stated
QUOTE
“I`m not saying dont go out and eat, Im just asking you to look at the situation that you will avoid ISKCON because BabaJi says so but restraunt food (even sparrodic) is ok. That is what confuses me.”

Finally this has nothing to do with "traditionalists"... it is a Vaisnava principle, plain and simple. So regardless of where one's faith lies this is an aspect of our being; this isn't an example of secularism but of Gaudiya Vaisnavism

Rasaraja dasa
Madhava - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:00:57 +0530
Babaji Maharaja said that if in some circumstances you have to eat, "then what can you do, you are not this stomach", but as far as possible you should avoid. That's the gist of it. Now, whatever amounts to a circumstance where such a thing is unavoidable is up to each individual to judge, but the principle of avoidance of all foodstuffs that haven't been offered to Thakurji by either yourself or other serious sadhakas should be avoided.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:12:22 +0530
QUOTE
I believe this is what Tarun is trying to express. He will eat prasad offered at an ISKCON temple and under certain circumstances will eat food at a restaurant. Neither may always be ideal but he is trying to follow the instruction of his Gurudeva.


Radhe!

Thank you, dear Rasaraja.
Yep, I am not so good at putting my thoughts into words...
But you hit it.

I said that I will follow the order of my Gurudeva as best as I can.
Now, Baba also told us to chant a lakh, two lakhs,...can I do it now?
No. But maybe in the future.
Baba´s instruction is crystal clear and for the highest standard.

Ideally, I should never eat again in a restaurant and never at an ISKCON-temple.
As good as possible, I will wholeheartedly follow this instruction.

But if I eat twice or thrice a year some salad or some veggies in a restaurant or take part in the feast on Janmastami in an ISKCON-temple, I do not think that Baba will be angry at me or punish me or Krishna will send me to hell... smile.gif

I know what the highest standard is at I will aim at that target very sincerely.
But I am that advanced that I can follow Gurudeva´s instruction PERFECTLY and I know for sure that he knows it. He said that he knows my heart and worse, my mind.

I am not angry with you, dear brajamani, sorry if it sounded like that.
I am just an aspiring disciple of my Gurudeva, trying my level best to follow his instructions, knowing full-well my enormous shortcomings.
Trust me, I thought very long about taking diksa and its consequences and I definitely want to come to a higher consciousness everyday. But believe, as working man with a wonderful wife and a big house I am sometimes struggling to reach my limits.
Puja, diksa-mantras, japa, cooking, offering, arati, reading on the spiritual side, school-work, house-work, maintenance-work, shopping, etc on the material plane keeps me busy enough.
Sure, I could always do more and nothing is ever enough or perfect, but to be realistic, I still am a very fallen soul with tons of anarthas that wait to be erased.

Still I find myself watching a cool movie like "Collateral" or the like, still I LOVE to hear songs from "Coheed and Cambria".
I know that these are anarthas but slowly slowly I will come to the point where the spiritual taste gets bigger and the material taste diminishes.

Honestly, we have very very often friends in our house and I bombard them with sumptuous prasadam, believe me.
Not to be arrogant, but somehow Srimati Radhika always gives me Her mercy and my cooking is accepted and the taste is wonderful.
So you are right, better to invite people.
But like I said, we have many friends, and yes, they might bind us more to mortality, but should I tell them "Well, I got diksa now, and you all suck. Bye bye!"
Not after 20 years (many friends know me that long).

Be it as it may.

I know what my Gurudeva wants from me and I know that by his mercy I will be able to achieve this.

Meanwhile, although I know how harmful it can be, I will be harming my spiritual life a few times by associating with "karmis" (another crappy term) and by eating the foodstuffs mentioned earlier. But I guess to have loving exchanges with wonderful "karmi-friends" can be also spiritually uplifting and sometimes it is better not to be so ego-centric.

Jay Sri Radhe!

biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Now, whatever amounts to a circumstance where such a thing is unavoidable is up to each individual to judge, but the principle of avoidance of all foodstuffs that haven't been offered to Thakurji by either yourself or other serious sadhakas should be avoided.


Right, I am sincerely trying to follow htis rule. Well spoken.
brajamani - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:14:50 +0530
QUOTE
Baba said that when I am home it is ok to take food which is cooked by my wife and I should simply offer the bhoga to my Giridhari.


Please help me understand. You can eat her cooking because you have made a bhoga offering of the same foodstuffs beforehand? If not, than you are eating ISKCON food which BabaJi says 'no'.

QUOTE
While traveling I should simply do the best I can to eat food offered to Giridhari.


Im kinda surprised. I could have sworn that Krishna says that we need to offer food to him and we are to partake of the remnents and that is to be our nurishment. Could someone find this quote if they know it off the top of thier head? I dont remember a stipulation saying "If I`m on the road I can eat at restraunts". How about lots of fruit? Cold kitcheri?

I studied Classical Indian Hindustani Music for about 5-6 years with a old school female bodied GuruJi. We traveled alot, we even played in Ravi`s place at the '97 Woodstock Fest. We also traveled from the east coast to the west coast and we never ate food from a restraunt. Even if we were gone for weeks at a time we always had something that could be warmed up or easily prepared or just enjoy fruit. Tiny coleman cookers are the best invention! Maybe this is why I have such strong feeling about food blink.gif The only reason I bring this up is because it can be done.


Anyway, I wish you the best and hope your having a great day smile.gif

Brajamani
Madhava - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:23:32 +0530
I don't really see the point in people citing their individual instructions from Babaji Maharaja in a public forum. They are just that, individual instructions, and may or may not apply to everyone.

The general principles we know from the shastra and they should be known as the ideal for all. As for individual instructions that may allow something less, Baba was particularly concerned over giving such, as he related, "If I permit for one, then everyone will do."

Hence the principle of "As far as possible, follow the ideal", and beyond that, it's all up to what you can or cannot do, and that's something others shouldn't be judging in a public forum, and I don't really see why that should be done in private either. Nor do I see why people need to beg for Baba's blessings for falling short of the ideal. Just do what you can and learn to live with that if you can't do more.

Beyond eating issues, there are a thousand other ideals that people are regularly falling short of. If someone came around and started pushing them, most participants in this thread would shortly be nervous wrecks trying to implement them in their respective life situations.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:25:46 +0530
Best place.
Incredible friends.
Best prasadam.

Baba´s ashram, my diksa-day...

Attachment: Image
DharmaChakra - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:27:14 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 10 2005, 10:44 AM)
QUOTE
Baba said that when I am home it is ok to take food which is cooked by my wife and I should simply offer the bhoga to my Giridhari.


Please help me understand. You can eat her cooking because you have made a bhoga offering of the same foodstuffs beforehand? If not, than you are eating ISKCON food which BabaJi says 'no'.

QUOTE
While traveling I should simply do the best I can to eat food offered to Giridhari.


Im kinda surprised. I could have sworn that Krishna says that we need to offer food to him and we are to partake of the remnents and that is to be our nurishment. Could someone find this quote if they know it off the top of thier head? I dont remember a stipulation saying "If I`m on the road I can eat at restraunts". How about lots of fruit? Cold kitcheri?

I studied Classical Indian Hindustani Music for about 5-6 years with a old school female bodied GuruJi. We traveled alot, we even played in Ravi`s place at the '97 Woodstock Fest. We also traveled from the east coast to the west coast and we never ate food from a restraunt. Even if we were gone for weeks at a time we always had something that could be warmed up or easily prepared or just enjoy fruit. Tiny coleman cookers are the best invention! Maybe this is why I have such strong feeling about food blink.gif The only reason I bring this up is because it can be done.


Anyway, I wish you the best and hope your having a great day smile.gif

Brajamani


As I pointed out here and here, the instruction is not to 'always avoid unoffered food'. To say this is to paint a black and white picture of the situation. In fact the world is shades of grey... Tarun Govinda-ji has a salad with co-workers a few times a year... Rasaraja-ji is on the road (working many, many hours) and needs to get something fast to eat. Is it ideal? NO, and they will tell you that. They are juggling being rude and offensive against 'not eating unoffered food'. Sometimes 'not being rude' has to win. Sometimes you can tactfully step aside and not eat the 'bad' food.

Personally, this is how I take the instruction. You must act the gentleman & do what you can when two beliefs conflict. You may choose to throw your hands up & tell people you will not eat their food. Personally, I don't. I simply avoid the situation when I can, and eat when I can't.

Simple as that. Where is the difficulty in understanding?
Madhava - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:28:20 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 10 2005, 03:44 PM)
Please help me understand. You can eat her cooking because you have made a bhoga offering of the same foodstuffs beforehand?

"Bhoga" is commonly used to refer to all stages of food, including offered. "Amaniya" is the word for unoffered, "prasad" is the word for the offered. People from ISKCON backgrounds tend to use "bhoga" synonymously with "amaniya". At any rate, I think Tarun Govinda here talks about offering that which has already been prepared.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:29:59 +0530
QUOTE
Nor do I see why people need to beg for Baba's blessings for falling short of the ideal. Just do what you can and learn to live with that if you can't do more.


Sorry, my intention was not to start again a commotion by posting Baba´s letter.
I just thought about how nice his instruction was...

Is it not righteous to beg for Baba´s mercy if I see that I am falling short?
Yep, not publicly, right?
smile.gif
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:32:32 +0530
QUOTE
At any rate, I think Tarun Govinda here talks about offering that which has already been prepared.


No, not me. Mr. Rasaraja das said this.
We hates to correct Master.
tongue.gif
braja - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:18 +0530
We're vegetarians but can't help butchering some high sentiments so we can feast on the entrails.
Madhava - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:39:04 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ Jun 10 2005, 03:59 PM)
Sorry, my intention was not to start again a commotion by posting Baba´s letter. I just thought about how nice his instruction was...

Is it not righteous to beg for Baba´s mercy if I see that I am falling short? Yep, not publicly, right?

First of all, not in public. Second of all, yes, you can be for mercy to be able to come up to the ideal, but I don't see a point in asking him to sanction a less than an ideal standard. There's a reason why there are standards and ideals. If someone gives a blessing for a sub-ideal standard, declaring that it's also just fine, very soon that will be established as the ideal for all who wish to take the easy route.

I've seen how Baba is not particularly happy about people asking him to sanction sub-ideal courses of action, and I therefore don't see a point in doing that. Suhc a sanction is generally taken as an acknowledgement of "that is good", but the point is that it is not good, because it is sub-ideal - the only ultimate good is the ideal, the established good standard, and everyone who falls short of that should take measures, whether in short or long term, to grow up to the desired standard.
Rasaraja dasa - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:39:10 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 10 2005, 06:44 AM)
Please help me understand. You can eat her cooking because you have made a bhoga offering of the same foodstuffs beforehand? If not, than you are eating ISKCON food which BabaJi says 'no'.

She cooks the bhoga. I offer to Giridhari and she will also usually offer to her deities. If I have foodstuffs which Giridhari would relish why would I not offer to him yet take myself? We do the bhoga offerings at the same time to both of our Deities as they both relish our offerings.

QUOTE
While traveling I should simply do the best I can to eat food offered to Giridhari.


I offer Giridhari fruits, nuts and yogurt while traveling. Sometimes I am in meetings that start at 7 am and end around 9 pm. In those cases I will take some nuts and dried fruit offered to Giridhari from the morning and at lunch and dinner will order a salad or if available pasta with butter. It isn't ideal but neither is my situation. Can it be done? Yes, I am sure a stalwart like you could easily handle such demands but I admittedly more lenient in such situations.

Instructons are guides and it is up to the individually to openly discuss their limitations with ones Guru if one is in a situation where they cannot follow an instruction. I specifically spoke to Baba about my situation, both regarding my wife and travel, and he gave me instructions that I could indeed eat food she offered and that it would be best if I could also offer the foodstuffs to my Giridhari. Ideally i could also cook for Giridhari daily and honor that prasad. He also advised during travel that I do my best to eat what is offered to Giridhari.

As far as bring a traveling stove and cold kitchari... I imagine you would understand that a traveling stove doesn't work well with the airlines these days and whipping one out in the middle of a 12-15 hour meeting isn’t exactly practical nor do I believe my employer would appreciate such a distraction. When I used to travel with 108 we would bring a electric stove and cook our own food unless devotees cooked for us. However the type of travel I do these days is a bit more formal and demanding in terms of time and facility. I will usually pack something to eat when at all possible but most food won’t last long through days of travel with no refrigeration so I make sacrifices. I am sure you also make sacrfices in areas that I would consider easily transcended but we all make our decisions and are accountable for them.

Rasaraja dasa
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:57:02 +0530
QUOTE
but I don't see a point in asking him to sanction a less than an ideal standard. There's a reason why there are standards and ideals.


Where did I ask him for a sanction which is less than ideal?

blink.gif
Madhava - Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:01:33 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ Jun 10 2005, 05:27 PM)
QUOTE
but I don't see a point in asking him to sanction a less than an ideal standard. There's a reason why there are standards and ideals.


Where did I ask him for a sanction which is less than ideal?

I don't know, did you? I don't see where I said that specifically you would have done that. People are commonly doing that.
Tapati - Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:04:13 +0530
There's a business opportunity in there for some savvy Vaishnava--a line of foods for travel, properly prepared and either Deity-prasad or else ready-to-offer.

Most corporate buildings have a break room with a microwave handy, so there could be microwave-ready meals like the ones Fantastic Foods is making, no refrigeration needed. Then there is the line of energy bars, granola, curd "burgers" and ready made chapati-wraps with little frozen juice/cooler packets to keep them fresh until lunch.

I freely offer this as both a great business opportunity and service to Hindus and Vaishnavas around the globe. smile.gif



brajamani - Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:41:35 +0530
QUOTE
She cooks the bhoga. I offer to Giridhari and she will also usually offer to her deities. If I have foodstuffs which Giridhari would relish why would I not offer to him yet take myself? We do the bhoga offerings at the same time to both of our Deities as they both relish our offerings.


This is very inspiring to hear indeed. It is so wonderfull to worship together in my opinion...irregardless of differrences in tradition. You are blessed to have incorporated such a wonderfull rutine...may it nurish your both always..

With deep admiration,
brajamani
brajamani - Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:49:47 +0530
QUOTE(Rasaraja dasa @ Jun 10 2005, 10:09 AM)
As far as bring a traveling stove and cold kitchari... I imagine you would understand that a traveling stove doesn't work well with the airlines these days and whipping one out in the middle of a 12-15 hour meeting isn’t exactly practical nor do I believe my employer would appreciate such a distraction.



laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Make some nice chi for them all while at it, they will love you for it smile.gif

QUOTE
When I used to travel with 108


Get that stove packed up, they are having a reunion biggrin.gif
http://www.static-void.com/108/


Rasaraja dasa - Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:02:01 +0530
QUOTE(brajamani @ Jun 11 2005, 10:19 AM)
QUOTE
When I used to travel with 108


Get that stove packed up, they are having a reunion biggrin.gif
http://www.static-void.com/108/

Radhe Radhe!

Yes, I am aware of that since I was the singer...

Rasaraja dasa
brajamani - Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:32:29 +0530
QUOTE
Yes, I am aware of that since I was the singer...


Neat, If ever near Cleveland in your business dealings please shoot me a line...

Most of the younger kids in our sadhu sanga are very much into KCore music. It would be inspiring to have you lead the SB class and you would find much appreciations regarding the music from the group. You could either stay w/ Dayal Nitai or my wife and I, we would love to have you as our guest smile.gif Our sanga is very raganuga friendly because whenever I say something regarding traditional practice I just get a blank stare because most have not looked into this avenue, aside from some of the Indian bodied.

Much respects,
brajamani

Is this you ?

user posted image