Week 2 - Shelter of the Feet of Sri Guru -

Explaining how the guru and disciple must analyse each other's nature and qualifications before embarking on their relationship, Sri Ananta das Babaji explains that just as a an unworthy guru will be responsible for obstacles in a zizya's bhajana,


Why is this so? I understand that there is a verse quoted in HBV which has been interpreted in two ways; the first saying that the guru accepts the karma of the disciple, and the second representing the view that the genuine guru will burn up the karma of the disciple. What Baba says in the quote would be compatible with the first premise as far as I can see. Which is the correct interpretation?

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How does this work? Which powers are at work here? Are there any examples/anecdotes of such incidents past and present?

Karma does not really have the power to bring about serious obstacles in bhajana. However, there is another, far graver danger known as aparAdha. If the sacred relationship is defiled, if the sacred mantras are defiled, and if the sacred methods of worship are defiled due to their having been given to a fool, this creates serious repercussions for everyone concerned. Therefore the guru should exercise caution in selecting disciples.



The power of grace is at work. The essence of the disciple's qualification is in the status quo of the heart, and we are all familiar with the often instant transforming potency of grace.

Such incidents are taking place on a regular basis, it seems. For example, though Baba generally insists that people should stay around for a period of time both prior to initiation and after it, sometimes the circumstances do not permit this, and grace comes before the law.

In this section, the following caught my attention:


Though we are all familiar with the division of samAsti-guru and vyAsti-guru, I find it intriguing and illuminating how tangibly Baba presents the division into the two. In this passage, zrI-guru-tattva, or the samAsti-guru, is presented as the origin of the grace that comes about. The mahA-bhAgavata devotee will be pleased with the sincere attitude of the sAdhaka, and the grace of the entire aggregate of guru-tattva will descend to bless the sAdhaka. Can you even begin to imagine how powerful that is?

In the initial stage of arriving at the guru's feet prior to diksha, the sevA practically includes (1) inquiries with a sincere and simple heart, and (2) an expression of a menial service attitude. Though you'll often find that opportunities for practical service are rather few in vairAgi-communities for the uninitiated (who may not be all that well versed in sadAcAra), the sincere expressions of a desire to serve are all noted. Also, the faithful following of whatever instructions the guru gives, such as an instruction to do the parikramA of Giriraja, is a form of service that is very pleasing to the guru.

We'll not go into the topic of specific guru-sevA just yet, as it'll come after the chapters on initiation; let's keep the guru-sevA of this thread strictly limited to that which comes about prior to diksha.

This entire long passage in the book is virtually untouched...

Does anyone have any questions or thoughts on what it means to serve the guru prior to diksha to bring about the good wishes of the entire guru-principle? Evidently it is considered to be a very important factor in making your diksha fruitful.

If someone has given thought to what the mutual examination means, to what it might possibly include on a practical level, I would love to hear all about it.

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Here it is said that upon receiving diksha-mantra, the sAdhaka has fulfilled his puruSArtha. If diksha is considered a veritable goalpost in human life, who can fathom its grave importance? Baba writes: "In this way the practising devotee will be blessed with the true relish of ambrosial bhakti-rasa."

Therefore, one should pay careful attention to preparing oneself in such a way that the fruits of diksha will be soon realized. Certainly diksha will bring about its fruit in due course of time in any case, but what intelligent person wouldn't prepare for it in good time to make it yield its fruit very soon?

Radhe Radhe!

A few jumbled thoughts:

Mutual examination: As stated in the The Means to Attain a Genuine Guru thread a perspective disciple needs to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the qualities and activities of Guru to properly examine a perspective Guru. Often times charisma, stereotype or social circumstance drives ones conclusion. In some cases one may even choose someone who won’t demand change from them which is obviously a bad start.

Personally as I started to realize that my original choice of a Guru wasn’t proper for either of us I was more cautious as to what attracted me to a perspective Guru. Initially my choice was based on what I consider to not be a “bad” things but incomplete none the less. My initial choice was based on examining someone and wanting to be just like them. For example I found my ISKCON Guru to be very sincere, humble, thoughtful, kind and determined. I wanted to be just like him and so I asked for his Shelter. I don’t regret that choice nor do I feel what brought me to him was inherently wrong. However it was incomplete. As important as those qualities are it is also important that the Guru has reached a maturity and point of devotion in their own bhajan and that one is thoroughly attracted to and eager for that same type of bhajan. So to me that examination wasn’t just based on the original qualities I named above but also understanding the dynamic of being a receptacle of the Guru’s mercy and instruction.

To me this dynamic with my Baba has been a paramount change in my life. I not only want to mature to encompass his qualities but also embody what he is giving me in terms of bhajan and service to Sri Yugala Kishor.

Last night Maharaja asked me a simple yet penetrating question: What is your shelter? I thought for about 20 seconds and told him of the moments where I feel the most protected and warm. For me it is the time each day where I have comleted my Puja… it is usually between 4-5 am so the sun is still not out and I am sitting in a quite room in front of my altar. Giridhari is newly dressed and decorated and fresh flowers and chandan decorate and adorning my objects of devotion. The only lights are the candles in which shine to reveal their forms and faces. I then enter into my diksa mantras and yogapithaseva. From that point everything else besides the warmth and affection of the Vaisnavas, my Baba, Sri Gauranga and Sri Yugala Kishora disappear. I am engaged in their service and our relationships. Their affection is undeniable and makes every struggle in my life seem distant and irrelevant. These moments may not last long but they are so strong and beautiful that one cannot help but feel so protected.

When I finished my thoughts Maharaja smiled and said that is the gift of bhajan that one receives from Guru. It brings me back to the changes I made in my life… it wasn’t about what someone didn’t give me but about what someone else could give me.

Radhe Radhe!

Rasaraja dasa

Very good Rasaraja; it sounds like the yearly birds in Vraja

http://www.naturesongs.com/verd3.wav

I'm not sure if this is altogether appropriate or relevant, but the circumstances surrounding the diksa of Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur have been on my mind recently. In his autobiography, he surprisingly states that upon receipt of diksa the urge to give up meat-eating arose in his heart.

How do we understand this in the context of preparing for diksa? The impression given here is that one can or may engage in inappropriate behaviour right upto the point of diksa and rely on the "potency" of diksa to provide the impetus to give up such things? Any biography about Sri Bhaktivinode will inform the reader that he engaged in several types of spiritual activities prior to diksa including giving Bhagavata lectures from vyasasan etc. as well as being a recipient of the Lord's grace on several occasions, despite eating meat? Sri Bhaktivinode was very very fortunate as his guru was specially chosen for him by Mahaprabhu, so I think that he is something of an exception and the same tactic (eating meat or whatever) will not necessarily bring about the same result that he achieved.

I know several people who wait for a certain occasion to begin the practice of something "new" or perhaps to strengthen the performance of a certain practice. I also do this myself as I use every Gaura Purnima or Janmastami (and other occasions) to do the same, either strengthening something or starting something new. Obviously there is something very important about the cultural significance of occasions (such as diksa, Lords' birthdays etc.) that provoke a devotee to evaluate his own progress and to see if there are any improvements to be made. A Western equivalent would perhaps be the tendency to compose New Years Resolutions at the time of the New Year.

One overriding theme in SGTV is the power of sadhu-sanga to transform the disciple's understanding of guru-tattva, and I wonder if it also has the power to begin to change the disciple's habits. Rasaraja stated above of choosing a guru based on characteristics he would like to see in himself. Does not sadhu-sanga cause the same? As we associate with sadhus, I think it is natural to begin to exhibit similar behaviours. It is more subtle than cheap imitation, but as one grows in knowledge, it seems natural that external habits change as well. And since association is with bhaktas, its not suprising that we start to exhibit behaviours typical to a bhakta.

I tend to think that sadhu-sanga should burn up many of the inappropriate behaviours prior to diksa.

Yes I completely agree. This is one of the issues of last week's discussion too, where the urge/desire to take shelter of a guru only arises if proper sadhu-sanga has taken place. Sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya.

How nice..

Yes that proves that Kedaranatha Datta didn’t have sufficient Sadhu-Sanga prior to his Diksa.
Nevertheless, I do think that he had the desire to stop eating meat before the initiation in a Vaishnava line. To begin with, any Shakta or Shaiva or anyone knows that in order to be fully accepted as a Vaishnava, one has to follow the rules of a pious life as indicated by the Acaryas in that line.

In other words, because of the lack of Sadhu-Sanga, Kedaranath Datta did not have the “strength” to stop meat eating. Moreover, in the case of Kedaranath, he was going through a transitional process of changing from what he previous believed to be his faith, into a new life that he just started hankering for.

Which means that when Madhavananda Das suggested that one has to be "ready" before initiation, the impressions that I have is that he is not talking to an audience of beginners; rather, he is indicating the basic principal of spiritually mature Sadhakas who are already familiar with the process. At this stage in spiritual life, one is expected to be more attentive for the challanges and the higher degree of responsibility, which comes about in the form of “New Diksa" in a traditional line (an advanced line of Vaishnavism).

To simplify, Kedaranatha Datta, at that time, was starting his journey into Vaishnavism, whereas, the audience present here has already been exposed to a variety of forms of the Vaishnavism. Therefore, at this stage, it is actually expected that one feels much more the need for personal changes, as well as, the appreciation for the next level of consciousness.

Srila Bhaktivinode then continues:

I wouldn't necessarily go this far, Harisaranji. The biography by Rupa Vilasa das (and Shukavak das also?) show that he had much sadhu-sanga prior to initiation. He did quite a bit of seva and writing before diksa, and even gave the famous 'Bhagavata' discourse. He practised under the influence of two or three siksa-gurus. I think that the Thakur's mild complaint is about how in spite of so much sadhu-sanga, he couldn't find one that he thought was suitable enough to be a diksa-guru for him.

He had plenty of sadhu-sanga from his childhood onwards prior to diksa.

Thanks, Gourasundara-ji!

Yes I agree with you that he had Sadhu-Sanga and you are right in saying that his complaning was about despite of all that assotiation, still there was not enough faith instilled in his heart. Indeed that is my very point!

The example below can illustrate it better:

by His Divine Grace
Om Visnupad Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, addressing Srila Sanatana Goswami, one of His foremost intimate associates, said:

krsna-bhakti-janmomud hoy sadhu-sango
krsnaprem janme, tniho punoh mukhyo ango
(Cc. Madhya 22.83)

"The root cause of devotional service to Lord Krsna is association with advanced devotees. Even when one's dormant love for Krsna awakens, association with advanced devotees is most essential."

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, commenting on this verse, writes: "Although it is absolutely true that association with advanced devotees is the prime cause which gives birth to devotional service to Sri Krsna, yet even at the stage when love for Krsna awakens in the devotees heart, it is indeed again association with advanced devotees that is counted as the principle devotional limb in the loving exchanges with Sri Krsna."

When I said Sadhu-Sanga, I mean it in the real term as effectively touching one’s inner heart. The Sanga aforementioned has in it that particularity of provocative renovation; the power that can definitely change one’ ordinary life. That is probably the meaning of Sadhu-Sanga (that I like); the one (the Guru) who has the power to take a candidate to a journey inside the flows of the perfect-channel. With that connection then the heart will naturally give up bad habits and divine aspirations will come about.

Another example is, if we analyze it closer that connection or awakening of the soul did play a substantial roll in Lord Caitanya’s Bhakti revival movement. The Lord, before taking initiation from Isvara Puri, had Vaishnava association, as well as, He was preaching. However, He was still percived by others as a charming Pandita of Nadiya, only... Nevertheless, it was right after the acceptance of Sri Isvara Puripada as His master that His Bhakti movement took off.

So that was the special Sadhu-Sanga, which He indeed needed and was through that very connection that His Sankirtan movement and intense devotion sprouted. In the same way that is the Sadhu-Sanga which we are aspiring for; A Sanga that can change our life in amazingly ways.



Therefore, despite of Thakura Bhaktivinode had previous Sadhu-Sanga, is herein declared that he was suffering from the absence of real Sadhu-Sanga; the Sanga which makes one goes madly in search of the divine love for Krishna.

There is also another concern regarding "having sadhu-sanga", and please take this respectfully when I seak in the context of Bhaktivinoda. Genuine sadhus may be there; however, due to the evils of one's own heart (such as meat-eating), such sadhu-sanga may not yield its fruit, and indeed there may be myriads of reasons why such sadhus do not bestow their grace upon soneone.

Well definitely you made a good point. However, let us consider the potency of Sadhu-Sanga, which can eradicate the sin in the heart. In other words, such Sadhu either through charisma or purity, he has the power to give the seed of Bhakti regardless of one’s material contamination.

Discussions on the independent nature of bhakti have been split into a new thread to ensure we don't drift too far away from the core topic. This is, after all, a study group which means we have to focus a bit.