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I just cant resist - Tirtha in Prison Link



brajamani - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:33:13 +0530
Tirtha in Prison Link


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Tapati - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 06:41:17 +0530

I am of two minds about this site and Tirtha himself.

My shadow side wants to gloat at his misfortune. He murdered the father of a young friend of mine, who I watched grow up, as well as Sulochana. I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.

My higher self recognizes that none of us deserves our blessings and in many lifetimes I may have done similar or worse things. I believe in redemption for everyone who wants to do the hard work of seeking it. My higher self is glad if he can serve his Deities and redeem himself and do some good in the world.

I hope my higher self wins.
Srijiva - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 06:57:13 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 06:11 PM)
I am of two minds about this site and Tirtha himself.

My shadow side wants to gloat at his misfortune. He murdered the father of a young friend of mine, who I watched grow up, as well as Sulochana. I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.

My higher self recognizes that none of us deserves our blessings and in many lifetimes I may have done similar or worse things. I believe in redemption for everyone who wants to do the hard work of seeking it. My higher self is glad if he can serve his Deities and redeem himself and do some good in the world.

I hope my higher self wins.



Mother Tapati strikes again....showing us all the beautiful side of social grace.

I know what it is like to be in jail, with a heart hankering for the association of devotees. It is a terrible position to be in.
{edited add on:} I know too what it is to be in jail for something you've done....and I take no pity on those who murder...especially devotees. I also think it is abit odd that anyone would want to listen and or take instruction from this guy..but hey....I really have no business commenting in this thread anyways...and apologize to those who might have taken offense. {end of my edited add on}

I don't know what it is like to take a human life...other than my own....but apon reflecting ... I have snuffed out countless lives.... crying.gif oh, my terrible wrath apon the insect world. Hell has no accomadation befitting a scantless bug squasher such as myself...janmani janmani getting squooshed like a bug....that is my fitting future sad.gif
jijaji - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:10:51 +0530
Excuse me..

Sorry to break up this pity party, but Sulocana was a friend of MINE!

The freak killed him!

how weird...

later

mad.gif
Srijiva - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:26:31 +0530
i don't pity this guy by any means.... I adore Tapatis attitude.
Elpis - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:58:46 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 08:11 PM)
I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.

Rot in prison I understand, but why take the statues from him?
jijaji - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:11:21 +0530
Oh come on..

He should have had the death penalty...

why pamper the murdering filth?

mad.gif
Tapati - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:15:20 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Jan 31 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 08:11 PM)
I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.

Rot in prison I understand, but why take the statues from him?




To deprive him of Their comfort and service.
Babhru - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:09:45 +0530
QUOTE(bangli @ Jan 31 2005, 03:40 PM)
Sorry to break up this pity party, but Sulocana was a friend of MINE!


Mine, too. I can appreciate Tapati's generosity, but only in the abstract. I spent almost an hour speaking with Sulochan in the produce department of Von's supermarket the night he was murdered. His impending death was one of the topics, which I took only half seriously, I'm afraid. I almost fell over the next day when Puranjana called the house where I was staying and said that Sulochan had been killed the night before.

Prison's a good place for this guy. And I don't really want to hear anything he has to say until he does a little introspection about the effects on one's sould of murdering vaishnavas.

Sorry, but I just have a hard time with murderers and child molesters.
TarunGovindadas - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:22:50 +0530
wow, tough beans.

i also think that the death penalty would be appropriate.

manu-samhita? i guess you should pay with your life for taking one.

of course, SriSri Gaur Nitai are VERY merciful.

me not so much...
still i pray for his redemption...
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Tapati - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:04:58 +0530

I didn't say my higher self had won, or even would win.

On this subject my shadow side and lust for revenge is quite strong. I watched a boy grow up without a father because of Tirtha.

But I recognize the spiritual point of view of my higher self, even if I can't wholeheartedly embrace it. Trying to is an ongoing process.
TarunGovindadas - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:11:18 +0530
Radhe!

second thoughts:

Krishna says that even if a sadhu commits horrible deeds he should still be considered a sadhu. and that he will be corrected in due course of time if he still engages in sadhana-bhakti.

so, who the heck am i?
everything is up to Krishna.

but my "lower self" still likes my previous posting.

again i wonder about the mercy of Sri Sri GaurNitai.

Tarunji
Gaurasundara - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:54:09 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Feb 1 2005, 04:45 AM)
QUOTE(Elpis @ Jan 31 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 08:11 PM)
I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.
Rot in prison I understand, but why take the statues from him?
To deprive him of Their comfort and service.

Now that's a bit extreme ain't it?
Elpis - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:07:59 +0530
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 10:45 PM)
To deprive him of Their comfort and service.

In other words, to take god away from him. I wonder if that can be accomplished by removing the statues. Indeed, can it be done at all?
Madhava - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:13:37 +0530
And what good would it do to anyone? What other methods of rectification could he possibly have than surrender and service to God?
Elpis - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:56:11 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Feb 1 2005, 08:43 AM)
And what good would it do to anyone?

It seems that it would give satisfaction to some.

QUOTE
What other methods of rectification could he possibly have than surrender and service to God?

Why should rectification necessarily involve god? Are there no methods of rectification available to atheists?
Madhava - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:03:57 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Feb 1 2005, 03:26 PM)
Why should rectification necessarily involve god?  Are there no methods of rectification available to atheists?

It's merely a question of whether one adopts a theistic or an atheistic view of the world. In a theistic world, rectification would most likely involve god, as he is seen as the ultimate purpose-giver and standard-setter for the world. Hence to "sin" is to commit against his concept for ideal life in this world, and hence the rectification would involve him.
jijaji - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:49:20 +0530
Another side of this I believe is if Radha Krisha are even present in these 'dieties' in that prison cell?



Tapati - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:26:38 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Feb 1 2005, 05:37 AM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 10:45 PM)
To deprive him of Their comfort and service.

In other words, to take god away from him. I wonder if that can be accomplished by removing the statues. Indeed, can it be done at all?




First of all, let's be clear--this is the perspective of my vengeful shadow side. I recognize that no one can literally "take God away from him" but he derives comfort from serving these beautiful Deities and so my shadow, vengeful impulse is to deprive him of that. That is the side I am fighting, after all.

As to Madhava's point, he also has to make amends to victims if he wants redemption, in my humble opinion. If he's ever in a position to, there's a fatherless child who deserves some kind of amends and a heart felt apology, and Sulocan had friends and family as well. In addition, doing some kind of social service work of benefit to others is one way for him to serve God. He brought a lot of misery with his actions, he should try to bring solace and comfort to others as his penance.

Say Tirtha inherits some money. It should go in reparations to loved ones of his victims.
angrezi - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:40:32 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Feb 1 2005, 06:24 AM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Feb 1 2005, 04:45 AM)
QUOTE(Elpis @ Jan 31 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 31 2005, 08:11 PM)
I want him to rot in prison forever and want to rip those Deities away from him.
Rot in prison I understand, but why take the statues from him?
To deprive him of Their comfort and service.

Now that's a bit extreme ain't it?


I think its easier for those of us who never knew Sulocana or his family to say these comments are extreme. The fact is there is a world of differerence between intellectually processing a horrible crime from a distance, and being directly affected emotionally by its senseless brutality.
TarunGovindadas - Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:22:43 +0530
QUOTE
And what good would it do to anyone? What other methods of rectification could he possibly have than surrender and service to God?


exactly.
whatever sentiments are involved, this man needs the mercy maybe more than anyone else.
let the rest be in the hands of SriSriGaurNitai.

i really think the same, Madhavaji...good point.

Gaurasundara - Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:46:42 +0530
QUOTE(angrezi @ Feb 1 2005, 06:10 PM)
I think its easier for those of us who never knew Sulocana or his family to say these comments are extreme. The fact is there is a world of differerence between intellectually processing a horrible crime from a distance, and being directly affected emotionally by its senseless brutality.

Oh sure, I agree completely. I just didn't see the wisdom behind the suggestion of removing his Deities like others. I never knew Sulocana and I didn't even know who Tirtha was until I read the comments in this thread. It is a very sad story indeed.
Tapati - Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:44:48 +0530
Here are a few links for anyone who hasn't heard much about Tirtha's history.


http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/themes/murder.htm


http://www.american-buddha.com/plant.party.htm

http://www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna6.html

The child I watched grow up was Chakradhari's son. (And not his only child, either.)
Tamal Baran das - Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:27:38 +0530
QUOTE(Babhru @ Feb 1 2005, 06:39 AM)
Sorry, but I just have a hard time with murderers and child molesters.





Will second that in full. I can't see them as living beings at all actually.
Tapati - Sun, 06 Feb 2005 06:41:04 +0530

In my final personal resolution to how I feel, both shadow and higher self wrestling with each other, it seems that my higher self has won a qualified victory.

I hope that Tirtha is able to fully own the details of what he has done (which seem to be lacking from his accounts), honestly assess why he did it without reference to the influence of others, and dedicates himself to making amends and leading others to similarly seeking redemption. I hope that his Deities are able to soften his heart in order to accomplish this. I think that his redemption ultimately benefits all, past and future, that his life has touched.

I am not able at this time to go so far as to light candles for his redemption or do tonglen specifically for him. Not yet anyway. I don't yet possess that kind of all encompassing love or humility. That level seems like a far off goal to me at this time.

My primary concern, blessings, prayers, and love will always be for his victims and their families and friends.

Blessed be--

Tapati


Elpis - Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:07:33 +0530
Regarding repentence and forgiveness, the book Wounds Not Healed by Time by Solomon Schimmel is excellent. It does approach the subject via the Jewish and Christian traditions, but I am sure that it will be of interest to the members of GD as well.

For more information, see here.
jatayu - Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:55:38 +0530
QUOTE(TarunGovindadas @ Feb 1 2005, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE
And what good would it do to anyone? What other methods of rectification could he possibly have than surrender and service to God?


exactly.
whatever sentiments are involved, this man needs the mercy maybe more than anyone else.
let the rest be in the hands of SriSriGaurNitai.

i really think the same, Madhavaji...good point.



Will Krishna take away that karma? This is not how this material world functions (read Mahabharata). Karma can be changed by your own effort only, therefore you find Vaishnavas serving the Lord in poverty and Vaishnavas serving the Lord in opulence. It's that simple, no changes because I became a Vaishnava. If Tirtha would have a little bit of understanding he wouldn't sit like a stone in front of some Deities but remove his terrible load of future complicated karmas by killing himself now and thus get totally freed of the painful karma of having murdered a devotee. That's exactly what Manu-samhita says, ordinarily a murderer is hanged, and in the Manu-samhita it is said that a king bestows mercy upon a murderer by killing him, thus saving him from various kinds of suffering. Because of his sinful activities, such a murderer is killed by the mercy of the king. So it is not cruelity but real mercy, try to understand.
Chanahari - Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:29:14 +0530
Religious and mundane sentence; the sentence of the man and God are not necessarily the same.

I'm generally in favor of capital punishment - for the security of the society. That someone was a murderer and was sentenced to death, I think it doesn't disqualify the perpetrator from turning back to Radha-Krishna and finding his/her redemption.

Even inquisitors used this principle. In Medieval Europe, in many cases when bonfires were organized, executors and executed prayed together for the redemption of the sinners.
TarunGovindadas - Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:19:44 +0530
Radhe!

first of all , jayatu, chill out.
smile.gif

where did i say that Krishna will take away his karma?
i just said that WE are not the ones who decide upon the life of such and such...
its between the Lord and the guilty one.

sure i know manu-samhita.

still i admire the mercy of Sri Sri Gaur Nitai.

and no need to spill your anger at me.
biggrin.gif

Tarunji
Kulapavana - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:44:27 +0530
Tirtha's case aside, I do not think there has been a proper accounting for all the improprieties during Kirtananada's tenure at NV. some things may not have been purely criminal (and therefore taken up by the outside law), but were still very, very wrong. for example, Kirtanananda's right hand man in the late 80's - widely seen as the willing tool in all the local wicked proceedings, is now a top GBC man in Iskcon. I've heard he can't even visit NV, as some residents promised him a fronteer style justice...
Elpis - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:23:15 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ Feb 7 2005, 02:14 PM)
for example, Kirtanananda's right hand man in the late 80's - widely seen as the willing tool in all the local wicked proceedings, is now a top GBC man in Iskcon. I've heard he can't even visit NV, as some residents promised him a fronteer style justice...

Would this be Devamrita?
Kulapavana - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:03:57 +0530
yes. in some ways all religious organizations are similar: disgraced priests are simply moved to a different location. Devamrita Swami does not have many fans in Europe (where he was preaching before coming to NV) either...
Elpis - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:08:52 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ Feb 7 2005, 03:33 PM)
Devamrita Swami does not have many fans in Europe (where he was preaching before coming to NV) either...

I know. I knew some devotees in Denmark who were not fond of him, to put it mildly.
Kulapavana - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:18:32 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ Feb 7 2005, 05:38 PM)
I know.  I knew some devotees in Denmark who were not fond of him, to put it mildly.


he he... I think he reached the zenith of his "methods" in NV... some folks promised him good ol' lynching if he ever strays there...
Elpis - Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:28:25 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ Feb 7 2005, 04:48 PM)
he he... I think he reached the zenith of his "methods" in NV... some folks  promised him good ol' lynching if he ever strays there...

I spent some time with Devamrita in New Zealand. Once, riding in Devamrita's van, a young Australian who was visiting asked me about Kirtanananda. I suggested that he ask Devamrita, who was in the van as well. He did, but got the answer, "It is not my service to gossip." Thinking about the pictures of Devamrita in the garb of a Christian monk that I had found in an obscure corner of the azrama a few days earlier, I had to suppress a laugh. rolleyes.gif
brajamani - Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:06:42 +0530
QUOTE(Kulapavana @ Feb 7 2005, 02:14 PM)
Tirtha's case aside, I do not think there has been a proper accounting for all the improprieties during Kirtananada's tenure at NV. some things may not have been purely criminal (and therefore taken up by the outside law), but were still very, very wrong. for example, Kirtanananda's right hand man in the late 80's - widely seen as the willing tool in all the local wicked proceedings, is now a top GBC man in Iskcon. I've heard he can't even visit NV, as some residents promised him a fronteer style justice...




I was just there in the Fall for over a month. I dont know of any Devamrita Swami but Kuladri is in charge now and he is listed as K Swami`s 'right hand man' in the Palace of Gold TourBook. TappahPunja is also Temple Commander and Rupa still the accountant.

Even though I had been going there for years I was really creeped out by living there. It appears that the 'Monkey on a Stick Gang' is still very much in charge and they let you know it. Kuldri threatened me over and over in emails and I had to report him to AOL to get him to stop.

Right now they are entangled in a huge greencard scam which reflects the days of old.....They entice devotees to move here from Eastern Europe, give them a place to sleep and then work them to the bone with a small stipened of a few hundred dollars. Over time the few hundred turns to 'under' a hundred and once they get the card they are gone! (if they get the card!)

The Polish and Russian folks there are very much into a 'gangster' mentality, many have dropped the sadhana for things like smuggling in dope from India. The Prison Minister is in jail now for this, his office I took over.



Brajamani