Gaura-giti and Radha-mohana dasa - nadia-nagari-bhava?

Please, can someone give me a good translation of Gaura-giti and some info about Radha-mohana dasa? I guess that the song says something about nagari and kincana, but in the translation at Sri Gaudiya Stava-Stotra evam Giti-guccha didn't say anything about it!

Perhaps you could post their version and we can look at it? Radha Mohan Das was a very prolific padakarta, but I don't know his lineage. I think most of his songs deal with Vraja lila, but with quite a bit of Gauracandrika as well.

It speaks of Nidhuvana-nagari, who is obviously Sri Radha. It doesn't refer to Gaura as a nagari.

I would like to post it, but I don't know how to make it, since the version that I have is in pdf and the caracteres change when I put it here.

I can send this pdf to you or Madhava and you can put this song here, if you wish.


What is the translation of Nidhuvana-nagari?

I don't think this song refer to Goura as a nagari, but as nagara. This can be felt at this verse of the song:

...Hey Sakhe! Sing about the sweet name, beauty, attributes, and pastimes of Sri Sacînandana Gaurahari, who performs supremely munificent pastimes, whose bodily complexion vanquishes the lustre of molten gold, whose beauty defeats that of millions of Cupids...

Sadhaka108, you can convert the "strange letters" with the diacritics convertor to Harvard-Kyoto. Here goes:












In this version, Nidhuvana-nagari is translated as Sri Radha. It means the heroine of Nidhuvana. Nidhuvana is one of the famous pastime-places of Radha and Krishna. There is no way it could possibly refer to Gaura as a nagara in Navadvipa.

Regarding how he can be felt as nagara in that verse, of course it is up to each individual what they feel, but such descriptions are fairly common. You read similar descriptions of Narottama Das Thakur and others, for example in Bhakti-ratnakara. That doesn't really mean much anything at all in connection of their being nagara or not.

Thanks Madhava for puting the song here!


But it seens that the song writer was in nadiya-nagari-bhava, as he shows saying "He sakhe!" in the beginning of the song.

Anyway who is Sri Radha-Mohana Dasa?

Is" Hey sakhe" an address to a male or female. I know Sakhi is female and sakhA is male , but what about in the vocotive? Hey sakhe! But one thing which implies a Nagari bhava in the song is his beauty that surpasses Cupid. Who knows?
It seems to me that the advovates of Nagari bhava would like to force it on us would we or no. That if anything I find more offputing and dare I say disturbing.
utpadyayeva.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura most definitely advises us not to see Gaura in that way, as it conflicts with the Bhavollasa idea of the Radha kinkaris.
Sometimes it seems that people will squeeze out any meaning from Mahajana vani to establish their various veiws.

Radha Mohan das the Vaisnava padakarta (poet and lyrisit) wrote songs on Vraja lila and Navadvipa lila, but I have no biographical info. Maybe if we were able to look at the complete body of his writings it might present some idea. It is quite important to know the context of any quotation, because ( as is noticable in Harvard CC., the citations from tha Bhagavat are so badly done that it is obvious that the translater was not aquainted with the original context.)

prasIda devesa jagannivAsa/

sakhA is the (irregular) nominative singular of sakhi, which is masculine, not feminine. The vocative of sakhi is sakhe. The feminine is sakhI, the vocative of which is sakhi.

Which means that sakhe is... ?

Masculine vocative singular.

Who is trying to force anything? I justing telling about my point of view at this song. I don't expect you to accept it or not.


Could you translate it?


What way? Could you please give any quote from Bhaktivinoda Thakura about this?

About the "hey sakhe" at the biggining of the song, I recall reading that was a custom among nadiya-nagari padakartas. Correct me if I'm wrong but I guess that is at the comment of Dhamali by your guru, Gadadhar Pran Das.

Sorry, Sadhaka108, I did'nt mean to be desputable.
I just sometimes get the feeling that the exponents of Nadiya Nagari Bhava trying something too hard to make the proposition. But I am sorry for having an attitude problem.

Utpadyaeva is my misspelling of a word from a sloka to the effect that even exclusive Hari bhakti, if not in accordance with valid testemony, is simply a disturbance.

Regarding Thakura Bhaktivinoda's view you can check the other thread where Madhava posted a quotation from Jaiva Dharma.

Yes my guru is very much into Nadiya Nagari Bhava, and is publishing books on the subject, but when I met him he was into Manjari bhava sadhana, and that's why I took initiation from him in Sri Jahnava Devi's parivara. Knowing my preferance, he has advised me to follow the sadhana that I like best.
Seems like a paradox perhaps, especially if I go on line refuting what he's into.
What can I do?

Hi Madanmohan das,

To me that's ok that you didn't agree with me, but I think that's very strange that you doesn't agree with your guru. If you are into Manjari bhava sadhana and your guru said to follow this, just do it. Why try to disturb someone feelings about nadiya-nagari or other kind of sadhana? Why try to refute your own guru?

If you want another mood than nadiya-nagari I think that you should ask for Gadadhar Pran Das his blessings to find a siksha-guru. A true guru will give what he think that is the best. It's clear that your guru think that nadiya-nagari sadhana is the best sadhana. Please try to respect this.

Anyway I pray that you could find what you want.

Thanks for your understanding.
What then do you make of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's statement in Jaiva Dharma?

Well, it might be a bit confusing if the guru, to whom you went for shelter and guidance on a particular kind of sadhana, himself swaps moods and ends up with something rather incompatible with the kind of mood you aspired for.

Sadhu sAvadhAn! I have to be cautious here. I tremble at the thaught. guru rusta hale krsna rAkhibAre nAre/ If only I could say "siksAgurusca bhagavAn sikhipicchamauli", but obviously in my case it would be utterly egotistical to say so.
I would like to hear any advice if anyone has a mind to profer it.
I want to contemplate on Gaurahari as he is depicted in CC, CB and Gutika. And to me, when there is a Nagara around it's Syamsundara. Of course Gaura is purna bhagavan and would also have his nagarali,but it does'nt concern me (yet perhaps). As a sort of sancari bhava I could imagine appriciating Gaura in that way, but as for sthayi bhava, that would be Gaura relishing his own self-love through sankirtan rasa. My mind cannot accomodate Gaura as nagara and rebels a bit if it feels any compulsion to do so. Again, what can I do?

We have the kind guidance of guru-sAdhu-zAstra. If in doubt over one, consult the other two. In this case, perhaps consult some senior bhajanAnandIs who share the mood you originally set out to acquire.

O my Lord , Your devotees can see you through the ears by the process of bona fide hearing , and thus their hearts become cleansed , and you take your seat there . You are so merciful to your devotees that you manifest Yourelf in the particular eternal form of transcendence in which they always think of You(Srimad Bhagavatam , 3.9.11)

humbly,

sruteksitapatha- seen through the ears-how wonderful!

I didn't find it.

Please can someone give the link to thread?

Me neither. But it's chapter 39 of Jaiva Dharma where he's explaining "na dharmam nAdharma...etc." from Manah siksa.

Why incompatible?
I can think of Gaura both in radha-bhava and krishna-bhava. I don't see any conflict here.

To me, as Gadadhar Pran prabhuji tell us, Nadiya-nagari bhava includes Manjari-bhava in it. It's the same with madhurya-bhava. One who has madhurya-bhava can taste all the other bhavas.

You can see good examples of manjari-bhava at Govinda-Lilamrta comments by Gadadhar Pran Das. If Madanmohan das wants to follow manjari-bhava, he can do this by this book and with his guru advice. He didn't need to change the guru. He can ask for a siksha-guru who sees Gaura in the way of CC, CB and Gutika.

You may think of that, but can you actually become steeped in bhajan, spend hours contemplating on the lilas, with such a mixture of moods? Can you actually incorporate those two moods into one bhajana while preserving the integrity of manjari-bhava as we learn of it from Raghunath Das Goswami and others?



No, it is not that one who has madhurya-bhava has access to all bhavas. It is very well known that the sakhis have no access to the moods of the manjaris, and are often excluded from services and views the manjaris have the privilege for.

One may say that Nadiya-nagari-bhava includes manjari-bhava, but merely saying that is not enough. One would have to explain how that might possibly be so. To me, it seems fairly clear that nagari-bhava means being in the mood of a nayika, independent or otherwise, who enjoys directly with Gaura. The manjaris, on the other hand, do not enjoy directly with Krishna, and are in fact heavily opposed to the idea.




One does not progress in the cultivation of manjari-bhava through a mere reading of examples. One progresses through associating with saints who are themselves engaged in intense manjari-bhava-upasana with their life and soul. Otherwise it is just so much theory. While theory is fine, you are not supposed to be a mere theorist. You are supposed to step into the siddha-deha, feel the moods of the manjaris, walk their walks and talk their talks.

= = =

The reference from Jaiva-dharma is found here.

As you wrote at this thread (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=2695&st=30):



One can begin his jorney to lilas at meditating at Navadvipa, with Gouranga at Radha-Mahabhava. This may take him to Vraja. There after seeing his srngara rasa lilas with the gopis, someone can remember (smarana) Rasaraja Gouranga sambhoga with the nadiya-nagaris.

This Navadvipa of Rasaraja Gouranga is not the same Navadvipa of Gouranga as a sannyasi experiencing Radha-Mahabhava. This is a Gupta-Navadvipa, where Rasaraja Gouranga sports with the nadiya-nagaris.

Everything is possible.


What I wanted to say is that on who has madhurya-bhava, can have acess to all rasas.

Gadhadar Pran prabhuji explain about this at Dhamali. Unfortunaly I don't have a copy to quote it.


You can be a nadiya-nagari nayika at gupta-navadvipa, a manjari at vraja and a sadhaka at Mahaprabhu passtimes in Radha-Mahabhava. These are different worlds, with different lilas. So one have to be in the mood of that lila to taste the rasa.



I sugested reading Govinda-Lilamrta to give the idea that Gadhadar Pran prabhuji has realization at manjari-bhava. If not he was not suposed to write a commentary at this book. As he says at his letter to Jagadananda and Goracand Das, he did all this process that you are talking. He associated with sadhus (your guru included), studied their books and did a lot of manjari-bhava-upasana. Because this I sugested Madanmohana Das to look for his advice, after all he's his guru!

In regards to that thread, you are quoting me out of context.


It is not that we are erratically traveling around, like a hitch-hiker going wherever the road leads. You have a particular nitya-svarUpa in which you have a particular relationship with Bhagavan. Specifically as a sAdhaka, you will need to pay attention to the principle of ekAnta-bhakti, or focused devotion, if you wish to proceed anywhere. Otherwise, you will be torn into so many directions and end up not going much anywhere at all.

In regards to the meditation of nitya-Navadvipa in brahmin-kishor forms, this is compatible due to its being a direct reflection of Vraja-vilasa with constant parallels to Vraja-lila, making it in effect nondifferent. And even that is a "transitional" dhama in a sense, as we are most of the time "passing through" and heading to Vraja-lila as Gaura becomes absorbed in Vraja-bhava. Within all the parshadas there, the Vraja-svarupa predominates, awaiting the next awakening of Mahaprabhu's bhava.



Yes certainly. Still, as we just read from Vrindavan Das Thakur in the other thread, the wise praise and worship in accordance with the lord's svabhava. This does not, obviously, mean creating new svabhavas and calling them his; rather, it refers to the existing svabhava that is already there.



And at the same time, I suppose you can also be a monkey with Hanuman, a maidservant of Lakshmi in Vaikuntha, an elephant in Dvaraka and a shop-keeper in Mathura? Yes, why not. They are different worlds, with different lilas.



He did -- is he still doing? If not, that in itself would prove the point about the compatibility of the different moods.

Then was Gaura avatara simply meant for providing the opportunity to enter madhura Vrndavana and nothing more ?

And what is the gist of Gaura avatara , anyway ?

For 48 years Sri Bhagavan has laughed , cried , dined , slept and exchanged wonderful pastimes with the people . It is unfortunate therefore that we have overlooked Gauranga’s original worship . When he was manifest in Navadvipa , Gauranga’s attraction was such that the bhaktas even forget about Radha and Krsna - they worshiped Visnupriya and Gauranga in nagari bhava.The evidence is found in the writings of Vasudeva Ghosa , Narahari Sarkara , Sivananda Sena , Murari Gupta etc . The madhura lila rasa of Navadvipa is the essence of Gaura avatara . In my humble opinion , this is Sri Bhagavan’s first and foremost contribution to the people of Kali Yuga .

As we know ,when Gauranga became Krsna Caitanya , his Navadvipa chapter ended and his mood changed . Then his 'headquarters' shifted to Puri dham . The Six Gosvamis , having missed Gauranga's Navadvipa lila , first met Mahaprabhu after his taking sannyasa . Hence they became familiar with his Radha bhava aspect and propagated worshiping him in this mood .

Yes , I know , in Caitanya caritra Mahakavya Gauranga said :

'' If you have faith in me , please worship Krsna . Then you will again receive my sanga .''

But those who intimately knew Gauranga in Navadvipa , they have failed to uphold his instruction .Owing to their overriding fascination for Gauranga's seva and the madhura tie that they share with him - their minds are unable to focus on Krsna - what to speak of any other devata .Yet , can we blame them ?

Radha and Krsna combine to form Gauranga's rasamaya svarupa . Although Gauranga has taught everyone to worship Krsna , he laments that most bhaktas fail to see deeper . The fail to see that in our Kali yuga Gauranga is the form of Krsna who is the most ideally suited for us . Hence Mahaprabhu says in Caitanya Bhagavata :

'' My desire in coming to this world is to find those who just search after me . But such people are very rare .''

Again - yes I know , Prabhu tell Nityananda to preach Krsna-nama but what did Gaura prema pagal Nitaicanda do ?Taking his associates with him and , wearing ankle bells on his feet , he went to every town and village singing :

bhaja gauranga , kaha gauranga
laha gaurangera nama re
je jana gauranga bhaje
se hoy amara prana re !

'' Worship Gauranga , speak Gauranga katha and sing Gauranga's name . Whomever worship Gauranga is my prana . ''

Nitai tells the people :

kali yuge sri gauranga prabhu avatara
kela kailn jivasane goloka isvara
golokera je sampatti zatane aniya
ghare ghare bilaitechen apani jaciya

''Do you know that Kali yuga's avatara is Sri Gauranga ? He has descended to bring Goloka's prema dhana . Now he distributes it freely from door to door .''

Let’s compare Nitai's preaching method with that of the Gosvamis . The Gosvamis use sastric evidence and logic - Nitai uses tears and embraces . The Gosvamis present irrefutable arguments that prove Sri Bhagavan exists- Nitai points his finger saying- ''just look , here he is ! ''The Gosvamis describe that Sri Bhagavan is premamaya - but Nitai -in his prema intoxication - awards it to all .

So , if we follow in Nitai's footsteps and first look to Gauranga's original Navadvipa worship , the Gosvamis' Radha Krsna bhajan paddhati will automatically come . Let's not forget the gist of Kali yuga's avatari - Gauranga . If he comes first , then everything else will nicely bear fruit as when water is poured at a tree's root .


humbly,

Oh , I forget:

It's true , in cintamani Vraja dhama , the manjaris never agree to unite with Krsna .

Therefore , when Krsna and Radha combine in the form of Gauranga , the timeless search of every jiva for their ideal conjugal lover becomes satiated .

Are you kidding me? "And nothing more"? This is just plain hilarious. And here we go talking about how Gaura-nagari and manjari-bhava are compatible. I suppose you can stuff in a bit of manjari-bhava somewhere in between, amidst something much greater. However, thinking of Vraja-rasa in terms of "nothing more" is just plain offensive to all the acharyas who brought forth the Vrindavan-rasa-keli. On the order of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who wished that to be broadcast!

First of all, I would like to offer you dandavats and tell you that I really enjoy this discussions with you. You always bring insteresting subjects at the topic given.


Perhaps we could discuss about ekanta-bhakti in a separed threat. I would like to known where this idea begun, how we can pratice it.

To me, the idea of ekanta-bhakti is the idea given at Bhagavad-Gita 6:30. If you see your ishta-devata everywhere, this is ekanta-bhakti.

Yes you can. To me the bhakta should do wherever role to fullfill the lila.


I don't known how is the sadhana of Gadhadar Pran Das, but I guess that someone that has so much affection to Goura can reject krishna-bhajan to do bhajan only to Goura. Goura is paramatattva. What Radha-Krishna has that Goura doesn't have? What Vraja has that Navadvipa doesn't have?

It's up to you what kind bhajan do your perform. I guess that the guru-shastra-sadhu can give hints, but you will do the job. This is about self-realization, not about someone realization. You can look at someone realization, but this is only to give you some idea about your own realization

No Madhava ji , I am not kidding you .What can I do when I am very greedy and Vraja-rasa is not enough for me .

And , Oh yes , by the way , I just follow vicara dhara (line of thinking)of my Prabhu ,Bhaktivinoda Thakura,Sisira Ghosa (I repeat some points which he made in his book Amiya Nimai Carita ) Narahari Sarakara , Locana dasa , Sivananda Sena , Vasudeva Ghosa , Murari Gupta , etc...so if they are offenders then I am too .

fallen sadhaka,

Jiva, if you may kindly present something from the writings of the aforementioned persons describing how there is something lacking in Vraja-rasa (aside those three deep curiosities Krishna descended to explore), then I would be very interested in hearing of that.

Madhava ji ,
I am really sorry because of my English . I have no other explanation for misunderstanding between two of us .

Once more , there is no fault of the Rupanuga Vainavas who seek more refuge in Radha and Krsna then in Gaura .There is nothing wrong with this mood whatsover .

Yet , on the other hand , in Nadiya-nagaris mood we can also find nothing wrong whatsover . Hence both sides can benefit to see the utility of the others' glories . The Rupanugas can benefit emmensely from Nagaris' bhava dhara - and those who focus exclusively on Gaura can benefit from the Gosvamis .

We need to addopt respect for other's views . I hate to quote myself but I will repeat :I hope that this appreciation will come with realization.

Gauraharibol !

Here goes.

And Jiva, with regards to benefiting from each other, I tend to think along the lines of our being able to benefit from each other in taking inspiration from each others' ekAntika-bhAva, just as Thakur Mahashaya takes Hanuman as an example of ekAnta-bhakti and naiSThika-bhajana despite the two being inclined for different rasas that are not deemed compatible by rasika-bhaktas. In such a way, I am certain there will be understanding and respect. However, I am at loss over how anything good can come of preparing a mixture of two clearly distinct moods.