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Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Developing a sense of relationship - As the essence of bhakti-sadhana



Madhava - Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:01:25 +0530
I wrote the following in our blog the other day:

The two essential factors in diksha, according to Jiva Goswami, are bhagavat-svarupa-jnana and bhagavat-sambandha-visesa-jnana, or knowledge about the specific form of the Lord we worship, and knowledge about our specific relationship with him. Or, in the Gaudiya context, with them, as both Radha and Krishna are our beloved ishta-devatas. This information, says Jiva, is contained within the syllables of the mantras. The cultivation of this relationship is at the heart of bhajan, and it is done both through daily contemplation of diksha-mantras and subsequent instructions illuminating the specifics of this relationship. guru-pAdAzrayAt tasmAt kRSNa-dIkSAdi zikSAnAm. This is the quintessence of our taking shelter of a sad-guru, with his kind assistance we seek to mediate a loving relationship with Radha-Krishna and their associates, and a very specific and special relationship at that.

I trust this will prove to be a very interesting seedling for a discussion. Such an important topic.
nabadip - Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:19:07 +0530
In practical terms a relationship is always a two-way-street. I am relating to the Lord as he is relating to me. In my practice as a bhakta I have the immediate connection with the Lord in his/her holy names, and then his vigraha. I like to approach holy name and vigraha as much as possible as though it was my first time seeing or taking the name. It's like in a human love relationship; it can get habitual if I forget the uniqueness of the moment, that I am here and now approaching a union with my beloved. Thus taking the holy name with that full attention, that full awareness that the Lord is manifesting in me through the vibration of the name, being aware that in that very moment of smarana I am connecting to his reality existentially, that means for me: building a relationship actively. The same in serving my Thakur, or seeing my Thakur in others, like when visiting a temple: at the moment of darshan allowing myself to be touched in my existential here and now, as well as in my eternal form yet to be developed/received.

As I am cultivating the practice of relating, questions arise, inquisitiveness awakens about the Thou as well as the I, the two poles of the relationship. The eagerness to take shelter with shastra awakens in me, to hear advice of Sri guru and sadhu. Tradition is important and gets its weight and honor, yet personal experience comes to the foreground. Then the significance of ritual versus heart-felt action... like in the offering of food. By offering the food that I am going to eat my side is nourished by the attention I am getting in the act of offering. Offering bhoga and eating prasad is thus an essential way of building relationship with the Thou, when love is present in doing it. That love can take expressions like worries whether my Thakur is going to like what I cooked and other preoccupations.

Relationship grows on small steps of concrete interactions between the I and the Thou. Intimacy is one aspect, trust and shared moments of togetherness and separation are other aspects.

Just some thoughts.
JD33 - Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:33:31 +0530
Thank you Madhava and Nabadip. very nice topic. I feel a warmth from Our Thakurs at different times of the day and night. It is wonderful to feel the relationship occuring in real time. While doing Sadhana is where the presence and love-relationship is most powerful - not happening all the time during sadhana, but at least almost everyday. It is such a warm feeling at other times maddening. Our line of practice is truely exillerating. It is so exquisitly wonderful smile.gif
Madhava - Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:15:34 +0530
Indeed, such a wonderful bhajana-path we have! By the grace of the Vaishnavas and Vraja-dham, we can all develop a sense of loving relationship with our Thakurs and eventually plunge deep into the waves of the ocean of their loving vilasa!

So, what are you waiting for, everybody! There is an ocean of nectar out there! Dive in! It is not difficult. It's a bit like taking your first dip in the spring -- a bit chilly at first, but well worth it!

Just see the nistha of our Raghunath Das Goswamipad --

gurau goSThe goSThAlayiSu sujane bhU-sura-gaNe
sva-mantre zrI-nAmni vraja-nava-yuva-dvandva-smaraNe |
sadA dambhaM hitvA kuru ratim apUrvAm atitarAM
aye svAntar bhrAtaz caTubhir abhiyAce dhRta-padaH ||

Ratim apurvam atitaram -- let us all strive to have such deep attachment to all these aspects of our bhajan, that are indeed vividly present at the siddha-bhumi too, diksha-mantras included -- in their fully blossoming form, as we receive the darshan of our mantra-devatas.
JD33 - Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:57:37 +0530
Hooray! Jai Sri Radhey!
Madhava - Fri, 31 Dec 2004 14:17:01 +0530
No more comments on this topic? Case closed, everyone attained svarupa-siddhi and went into samadhi? Are you actively trying to cultivate a specific relationship with your beloved Thakurs? Which practices do you find particularly powerful in this regard?
Satyabhama - Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:39:40 +0530
I am reluctant to post in this section... eek!

But ok, I will give it a try: I like to serve the deities very much. I get the real feeling that they are not "just" deities- maybe that has to do with my experience seeing the main deity at Tirumala. Actually, that is NOT a deity- that is Srinivasa Himself. Yes, I love the way the deities look different in their different moods- sometimes krishna looks chubby when He is very happy about something, especially on holidays. You can tell when He is in a romantic mood, devious mood, sleepy mood (yes, I saw Him nearly dozing off the day after Janmashtami). Radhika always looks starry-eyed, and has Her face tilted upwards. Sometimes our deities at home leave crumbs on the altar after enjoying food... my husband always humbugs me when I show him the evidence. wink.gif

As for cultivating the relationship- talking about Thakurji w/ other like minded people is good. Bringing Him flowers on holidays (not excluding Valentines Day of course wink.gif ). Writing Him notes, singing Him songs... you know, the usual. wink.gif Going to temple to say "hi" to Him every now and then.

As for relation with Krishna Himself, I will not comment too specifically, except to say that He makes His presence felt, and always in that specific way that I need Him. Bhudevi makes myriad appearances in my life in the guise of different persons on the path to Krishna. I guess that's about all I can tell ya. smile.gif
JD33 - Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:55:31 +0530
Hooray! Jai Sri Radhey! Thank you sharing Satyabhama!
Srijiva - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:26:57 +0530
It is so hard to contribute to such wonderful topics such as this while I am at work and distracted... (my home computer crashed & needs a total reboot sad.gif )

I can definately say that my relationship with my Thakurjis has blossomed some over the years. I feel just a little more closer now that I am actually serving someone rather than something. Do I have full realization that my Thakurjis are God? No. I would like to someday. I feel sheepish most of the time and very sorry for my crude service and multilateral offenses, and I do my best.

I can admit that I came into the posession of Them rather prematurely and round about in a rather unresponsible manner, yet I have not been able to find reason yet why I should put them asleep for a long time until I am more qualified, as I do feel obligated to Them. I try and care for them with love and devotion...continually praying for Thier forgiveness. My favorite service is putting Them to sleep at night, and waking Them up in the morning. That is when I feel the closest to actually tending to Thier personalities.

I am not sure if this even fits in this thread or not. So scattered I am lately. Hard to concentrate, like I said, at work. So forgive my bumble~ness rolleyes.gif
Tapati - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:19:24 +0530
It's a lovely topic, and I appreciate it very much. But I cannot really discuss it in the terms of Vaishnava tradition so I will be content to read the informative comments of others. It is this very area in which your tradition excels, so I would expect that there is much to say if people are not too shy to say it. smile.gif

It's also related to the leap of faith topic, in a way, they are counter points to each other. So I might expect to see some crossover discussion. What makes one not only confident that there is a God/Goddess, but feel closer and closer to Them in relationship? Regular sadhana practices, meditation, or other activities?
Madhava - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:38:51 +0530
QUOTE
What makes one not only confident that there is a God/Goddess, but feel closer and closer to Them in relationship? Regular sadhana practices, meditation, or other activities?

Of course we understand that kripa, or grace, is the factor bringing about love in the heart of the devotee. That is certainly the fundamental reason behind it all, the reason behind moving from faith to love, and the reason in evolving in the nuances of love. Meditation and other such regular sadhana-practices, while not in themselves a direct cause in the sense of having an undefiable power to bring it about, of course keep this love and our yearning for it in the forefront of our lives and invoke more of it to descend from above with each passing day. Al those practices are our humble pleads to have more of the nectar of that relationship, to plunge deeper into it.
Rasaraja dasa - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:15:52 +0530
Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

What a terrific topic. As I was in Vraja when it was started I just found it and it is a topic very close to my heart these days.

I just finished my puja, diksa mantras and morning meditations. Midway through the chanting of my diksa mantras I was startled by just how engulfed I have become in the “whole package” since taking diksa. When I say whole package I mean the puja to my dear Thakurji, chanting my diksa mantras and the other aspects of my daily sadhana. Of course when things are new there is an enthusiasm that can be hard to carry over long periods of time so I am acutely aware that what I am feeling now is a byproduct of that enthusiasm. At the same time I also believe that the sadhana in which I have been given is very much an exciting aspect of my life because it encapsulates relationships which I may have been aware of (bhagavat-svarupa-jnana) in the past but which are now a bit more uncovered for me (bhagavat-sambandha-visesa-jnana). This is a very wonderful feeling as I know that due to my own hard heart, material desires and lack of humility I am only scratching the surface. Yet that very fact encourages me a I can’t imagine what the “real thing” tastes like and I want more than ever to have that taste.

I liken it to a budding relationship one may have with a pen pal. In writing back and forth you may learn a lot about an individual (i.e. their likes, dislikes, activities, etc.) but upon meeting and living within the company of that same person you become even more aware of those very same aspects and more specifically those same aspects graduate from a theoretical understanding of the person to an affectionate understanding of that persons very being. I don’t know if I am articulating this point very well but I feel like I have finally met my beloved.

I found Nabadip’s following point to be very deep:

” In practical terms a relationship is always a two-way-street. I am relating to the Lord as he is relating to me. In my practice as a bhakta I have the immediate connection with the Lord in his/her holy names, and then his vigraha. I like to approach holy name and vigraha as much as possible as though it was my first time seeing or taking the name. It's like in a human love relationship; it can get habitual if I forget the uniqueness of the moment, that I am here and now approaching a union with my beloved. Thus taking the holy name with that full attention, that full awareness that the Lord is manifesting in me through the vibration of the name, being aware that in that very moment of smarana I am connecting to his reality existentially, that means for me: building a relationship actively.”

Again I accept that much of my enthusiasm may be a byproduct of how new my sadhana is to me but I strongly believe that more then the newness of the practice is the aspect of bhagavat-sambandha-visesa-jnan.

I remember when Baba gave me my Thakura he said that soon Thakura would talk to me. The challenge for me is to listen. I pray for that day and anticipate deepening my relationship with Thakura. That will come by the will of the Vaisnavas. So please pray that I receive the ability to hear him speak to me even if it is to just ask me for more sweet rice biggrin.gif !

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa
Madanmohan das - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:55:19 +0530
I sometimes wonder when doing Thakura seva by emloying my senses active service, what or how can my physical body ever be worthy of it. That sometimes creates some hesitancy and sometimes they have to fast. How should I think in regard to the external body and sambandha? I understand something about Bhuta sudhi, but how does that adjust to the external body? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Gaurasundara - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:41:09 +0530
What a thoughtful query, and was something I was wondering too recently. I spotted something which PaNDit BAbA said:

QUOTE(PaNDit Ananta dAs BAbAjI @ Guru-tattva-vijJAna,p.15)
Then again the mantra is the intrinsic form of the Lord, and by the grace of the sAdhus and the guru, who are ZrI Hari's kArunya-ghana-vigraha, the embodiments of His deep mercy, the Lord enters into the disciple's heart in the form of the mantra to make his body, mind and life-airs transcendentally suitable for serving the Lord. ZrIman MahAprabhu Himself said:

dIkSA kAle bhakta kore Atma samarpaNa
sei kAle kRSNa tAte kore Atma sama
sei deha korena tAra cid-Anandamoy
aprAkRta dehe tAra caraNa bhajoy
(Caitanya CaritAmRta)

"At the time of initiation the devotee surrenders himself and at that time KRSNa makes the practising devotee equal to Himself. The Lord then makes the devotee's body transcendental and in this transcendental body he can worship the Lord's lotus feet."

Hope that helps.
Madhava - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:06:48 +0530
Through material senses, sadhana-bhakti cannot be accomplished. This is established by the numerous scriptural statements such as ataH zrI-kRSNa-nAmAdi na bhaved grAhyaM indriyaiH. However, through our seva-unmukha, our earnest inclination to serve, the svarUpa-zakti descends into our senses, making this wretched body quite suitable for sAdhana-bhakti, which is a transcendental reality in itself.
Madanmohan das - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:24:55 +0530
I guess the senses are not used to serving anyone but themselves, oblivious of Hrsikesa.
Thank you both for your comments.

ki rUpe pAibo sevA mui durAcAra/
zrIguru vaisnave rati nA hoilo AmAra//
Mina - Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:20:12 +0530
Madhava: Please define the term "transcendental". Kant first used it, but that is an entirely different context than the use of it by Maharshi Mahesh Yogi.

From dictonary.com:
tran·scen·den·tal
adj.
Philosophy.
Concerned with the a priori or intuitive basis of knowledge as independent of experience.
Asserting a fundamental irrationality or supernatural element in experience.
Surpassing all others; superior.
Beyond common thought or experience; mystical or supernatural.
Mathematics. Of or relating to a real or complex number that is not the root of any polynomial that has positive degree and rational coefficients.
Madhava - Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:30:34 +0530
Transcendental - aprAkRta.
Madanmohan das - Mon, 21 Feb 2005 00:01:03 +0530
biggrin.gif beyond phenominal existance
smile.gif supernatural
transcending nature

No haiku intended tongue.gif
student - Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:25:22 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Feb 17 2005, 11:36 AM)
Through material senses, sadhana-bhakti cannot be accomplished. This is established by the numerous scriptural statements such as ataH zrI-kRSNa-nAmAdi na bhaved grAhyaM indriyaiH. However, through our seva-unmukha, our earnest inclination to serve, the svarUpa-zakti descends into our senses, making this wretched body quite suitable for sAdhana-bhakti, which is a transcendental reality in itself.



QUOTE
dIkSA kAle bhakta kore Atma samarpaNa
sei kAle kRSNa tAte kore Atma sama
sei deha korena tAra cid-Anandamoy
aprAkRta dehe tAra caraNa bhajoy
(Caitanya CaritAmRta)

"At the time of initiation the devotee surrenders himself and at that time KRSNa makes the practising devotee equal to Himself. The Lord then makes the devotee's body transcendental and in this transcendental body he can worship the Lord's lotus feet."


Does this mean that in only a fully spiritualizedbody,(i.e.transcendental body) can I serve the Lord's lotus feet and not otherwise?

Is it in onlymy spiritual body,even in seed form until it becomes fully manifest, can I offer my bhava or spiritual humour received from Sri Guru at the time of diksa?

As Krishna is fully spirit,will He only accept fully spirit offerings ?
Madhava - Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:33:50 +0530
In proportion to the devotee's surrender, his desires for service are fulfilled and his body is spiritualized. There are gradations there. This is how my Baba explained this.
student - Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:58:17 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Feb 21 2005, 08:03 AM)
In proportion to the devotee's surrender, his desires for service are fulfilled and his body is spiritualized. There are gradations there. This is how my Baba explained this.



Thank you .
Yes 'AS they surrender to me I reward them accordingly' Krishna says in Gita.
The idea of a steady progression towards the ultimate goal of Hari bhajan is becoming clearer to me ,as black and white is replaced with a subltler shade of grey. smile.gif
dauji - Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:50:09 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Feb 21 2005, 08:03 AM)
In proportion to the devotee's surrender, his desires for service are fulfilled and his body is spiritualized. There are gradations there. This is how my Baba explained this.



So, svarUpa-zakti may only partially descend into the senses of the sadhaka?
Madhava - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:27:14 +0530
QUOTE(dauji @ Feb 22 2005, 07:20 PM)
So, svarUpa-zakti may only partially descend into the senses of the sadhaka?

In proportion with the sadhaka's progress, it will descend. The concept of gradations of progress is very common. As a famous example from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, we know bhAva to be a ray of the sun of prema, a manifestation of the innermost potency of the antaraGga-zakti. Similarly, Asakti and ruci are drops of that bhAva, and so forth. zraddha is the minutest particle of this principle of bhakti, and that we know as the bhakti-lata-bIja. From that seed, the creeper of prema gradually grows.
Kulapavana - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:51:03 +0530
reading this thread is a very humbling experience for me... I can only pray to all the good Vaishnavas for their blessings, so that I may one day also realize my relationship with Krishna.... crying.gif
dauji - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:17:04 +0530
Thanks for that concise response, Madhava-ji.

I actually had been thinking about this topic for some time and I had prepared similar questions for Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja. I think all the points in my inquiry have been covered in this thread (perhaps with the exception of my question regarding misra-bhakti, see below), but as reference for interested parties (as it is discussed in Babaji Maharaja's Madhurya-kadambini commentary) I will post it here:

- - - - - - - - - -

"In your translation to the third verse (?) of Madhurya-kadambini, you explain that "the Lord appears by His independent will as Krsna and Rama in the Yadu and Raghunath dynasties and so too appears in the external and internal senses of a devotee."

You state that Bhakti devi manifests herself in the senses of the devotee by which the Lord is subdued by his devotee. What about the sadhaka who is attempting to use his or her senses in the service of the Lord but sometimes is not always able to do so? Is this manifestation of Bhakti-devi within the senses of the devotee ever partial? Or is it a gradual process? If it is a partial manifestation of Bhakti within the senses of the devotee does this result in misra-bhakti?

Does this spiritual transformation of the devotees senses refer to the Lord's statement that when a devotee surrenders to Him, He makes the devotee one with Himself?"

- - - - - - - - - -

If anyone has other thoughts regarding the seva rendered by a sadhaka in whom the svarupa-sakti has only partially descended, I'd really appreciate hearing them. Again, thanks.
Madhava - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:50:25 +0530
With regards to mizra-bhakti, the term is generally used conjointly with karma-mizra and jJAna-mizra, indicating that the devotee's motive is mixed. In other words, his concept of destination is mixed. He may be thinking of worldly favors (as in the case of the ArtaH and the arthArthI among the four kinds of pious men), or he may be inclined for mukti and the cessation of misery.

However, the devotion of the bhakti-sAdhaka who has a firm resolve to attain the service of the lotus feet of Radha-Shyama in the nikunjas of Vraja is not considered mizra-bhakti in the sense the devotion of the aforementioned mizra-bhaktas are.

Of course, short of attaining uttama-bhakti, there is always an element of mixedness there as we process away our previous conditioning with the purificatory power of bhakti-sAdhana. However, the progress of the sAdhaka equipped with a proper resolve is substantially more rapid than of the bhakta whose aim is not clear.

The partial and more complete manifestation of bhakti-devI in the body, senses and mind of the sAdhaka is described in the famous Adau zraddhaH-verse of Rupa Goswami (BRS 1.4.15-16). sAdhakAnam ayaM premnaH pradurbhave bhavet kramaH. This is the sequence (krama) in which the sAdhaka arises towards the goal of prema.

The following famous pada by Thakur Mahashaya is also relevant in illustrating the principle:

sAdhane ye dhana cAi, siddha dehe tAhA pAi,
pakkApakka mAtra se vicAra |
apakke sAdhana rIti, pAkile se prema-bhakti,
bhakati lakSaNa tattva sAra || PBC 56 ||

The treasure you covet during sadhana you'll attain in siddha-deha;
It is a mere consideration of ripe and raw.
The stage of sadhana is raw, and the ripe is prema-bhakti;
Such is the gist of truth on the nature of bhakti.

A ripe mango, likened to the stage of prema, is very juicy (rasa means juice) and relishable, while the raw mango, likened to the stage of sadhana, may at times be bitter and hard. Nevertheless, it is a mango. And how does a mango ripen? Gradually.

Regarding the sevA of a sAdhaka who is only partially realized, each sAdhaka should be introspective and reflect on his own eligibilities. As much as you may do, that you should do; that is your current level of eligibility for bhakti-sAdhana. In the course of your progress, in proportion to the purification of the heart and the intensification of greed, your eligibility will increase. With the increased eligibility, corresponding to the increased presence of svarUpa-zakti in the mind and the senses, the sadhaka may engage in further services with deeper and deeper realization. The progression of eligibility becomes particularly evident in bhakti-aGgas such as smaraNa that require great concentration, peace of mind and sensitivity for being smoothly accomplished.
dauji - Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:08:15 +0530
I appreciate the clarification and additional insight.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Feb 23 2005, 06:20 PM)
Regarding the sevA of a sAdhaka who is only partially realized, each sAdhaka should be introspective and reflect on his own eligibilities. As much as you may do, that you should do; that is your current level of eligibility for bhakti-sAdhana.


I particularly like your succinct analysis of eligibility; it's proving to be very helpful to me. Thanks!