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Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and the such.

Who is Supreme - Gaura or Krishna? -



jiva - Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:49:12 +0530
Followers of Gaura-nagari Tradition believe in the words of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami ,who addresses Sri Gauranga as the para tattva sima , the highest limit of supreme transcendence .

ataeva caitanya gosai para-tattva-sima
tare ksirodasayi kahi ki tara mahima

( Caitanya caritamrta Adi , 2)

He also states :

na caitanyat krsnaj jagati paratattvam param iha

''There is no higher feature of Sri Krsna's divinity than that found in Sri Caitanya . ''

We can discuss this topic at OTHER TRADITIONS -section of this site, if interested.

with respect,
Madhava - Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:45:12 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 19 2004, 06:19 PM)
Followers of Gaura-nagari Tradition believe in the words of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami ,who addresses Sri Gauranga as the para tattva sima , the highest limit of supreme transcendence .

ataeva caitanya gosai para-tattva-sima
tare ksirodasayi kahi ki tara mahima

† † † † † † † † † † † † † † † † † ( Caitanya caritamrta Adi , 2)

He also states :

na caitanyat krsnaj jagati paratattvam param iha

''There is no higher feature of Sri Krsna's divinity than that found in Sri Caitanya . ''

In explaining the verse in the second chapter of Adi-lila, Kaviraja Goswami goes on to great lengths in explaining how Sri Krishna is the svayaM-bhagavAn. He then describes the position of Sri Chaitanya:

sei kRSNa avatArI vrajendra-kumAra |
Apane caitanya-rUpe kaila avatAra || CC 1.2.109 ||

"That Krishna, the son of the king of Vraja, is the origin of all avatAras. He has personally descended in the form of Chaitanya."

Therefore, namely on account of being nondifferent from Krishna, he is the paratattva-sImA -- ataeva caitanya gosAJi paratattva-sImA. In this chapter, the evident causal relation is from Krishna to Chaitanya, not vice-versa. Sri Chaitanya is the summit of paratattva because he is nondifferent from Krishna, who is paratattva-sImA -- not that he is a greater paratattva. That is not how Krishnadas Kaviraja explains his own verse in the chapter in question.

The only aspect in terms of which Kaviraja Goswami suggests Chaitanya's superiority is his deliverance of the jIvas:

seita govinda sAkSAc caitanya gosAJi |
jIva nistArite aiche dayAlu Ara nAi || CC 1.2.22 ||

"This Govinda is directly Chaitanya Gosain; there is no-one else as merciful in delivering the jIvas!"

Even here, one may conclude that the word dayAlu refers to Govinda, who is abundantly merciful due to his assuming the form of Chaitanya.

Overall, the point the author wishes to draw from the declaration of Chaitanya's being paratattva-sImA is that he is not a prakAza or vilAsa form, but svayaM-bhagavAn. He does not even attempt to make a commentary on the relative positions of Chaitanya and Krishna. Evidently, then, this is not the point he is after with the words paratattva-sImA mentioned in his own verse.

All things considered, I do not think you can legitimately enlist Krishnadas Kaviraja among the Gaura-paramya-vAdIs.
Advaitadas - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:02:29 +0530
QUOTE
seita govinda sAkSAc caitanya gosAJi |
jIva nistArite aiche dayAlu Ara nAi || CC 1.2.22 ||


"This Govinda is directly Chaitanya Gosain; there is no-one else as merciful in delivering the jIvas!"

Even here, one may conclude that the word dayAlu refers to Govinda, who is abundantly merciful due to his assuming the form of Chaitanya.



Indeed, in the next chapter Krishna says - yuga dharma pravartan hoy amsha hoite, ama vina anya nare braja prema dite "My expansions can promulgate the religion of the age, but no one but Me (Krsna, who started this musing 12 verses earlier - jatheshta bihari krishna kore antardhana, antardhana kori mone kore anumana) can bestow Vraja prema."

Krsnadas Kaviraja then quotes Rupa Gosvami's Laghu Bhagavatamrita - krsnad anyah ko va latasvapi premado bhavati - 'Who else but Krishna can bestow prema even on the vines?"
Perumal - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:16:16 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 19 2004, 06:15 PM)
Overall, the point the author wishes to draw from the declaration of Chaitanya's being paratattva-sImA is that he is not a prakAza or vilAsa form, but svayaM-bhagavAn. He does not even attempt to make a commentary on the relative positions of Chaitanya and Krishna.



Muralidhar das: Maharaj, I have heard that Krishna is doing Gaura-seva. Is that right?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Krishna is serving Gauranga? Krishna is serving Gauranga? Yes we can think that Krishna is charmed by his own parallel existence of Gauranga. He is charmed because Gauranga means Krishna and Radha; Krishna and Radha is one. Gauranga is combination of Radha and Krishna, so that is more. And Gauranga is prepared to distribute the Krishna-prema to one and all. Extending the market of the sale, extending the market for the distribution of divine love. Magnanimous Krishna. When Krishna comes in the mood of Radha, both combined, He comes to distribute their inner wealth to one and all, to the public, for their benefit. That Krishna is Gauranga. Not only Krishna; Krishna in the mood of Radha, engaged in the distribution of his own wealth to the outside people. So for us Krishna is more valuable when He is Gauranga, because there we get our heart's satisfaction. And in that Gauranga is higher than Krishna. Gaura-lila. Krishna engaged in distributing Himself causelessly to the others. That is higher for us, and independent of our thinking, because both combined - Radha-Krishna combined.

So they are one. In Vrindavan-lila they became two, divided. And again in Gaura-lila they are both combined. Eternal.... always existing, in two moods, one combined and one different. Half and half. For their lila, pastimes. One thing divided, then the whole comes into one and becomes Gauranga, not brahma (nirvisesh brahma). According to the jnanis the whole (sakti-saktiman), the potency and the owner of the potency combined, the jnanis say, when combined then it is non-differentiated brahma. But to us that is not non-differentiated brahma. That (whole) becomes Gauranga, searching Himself. When one, Radha-Krishna, the potency and the owner of the potency combine together in one whole absolute, and then He is searching Himself. He is feeling Himself, searching Himself, and in that way He is distributing Himself to others. In Prema Dhama Deva Stotram, I have got this verse:

atma-siddha-savalila-purna-sakhya-laksanam
svanubhava-matta-nrtya-kirttanatma-vantanam

The sign of the absolute perfect being, the full Absolute, will be this, that He is dancing because He is overjoyed in his inner satisfaction. He is satisfied with Himself, and He has nothing to search for, to find His satisfaction outside, and He will dance. The dancing attitude is showing that He is full in Himself. And the kirttan, the chanting, that is His distributing that joy to others. That we find in Gauranga. His dancing is because He is full in Himself, and with the kirttan, the chanting - He is distributing that joy. This is self-evident and this is the sign of the fullest source of the highest absolute, kirttanadvayaika, and that is mentioned in one stanza in Prema Dhama Deva Stotram, purna sakha laksanam. The satisfaction, the anandam, ecstasy, in its fullest conception, will have such sign, such symptom - what? That He is dancing in joy with happiness arising within Himself. He is full in Himself and He is chanting, He is giving Himself out to the environment. That should be the highest ideal of the absolute happiness. And that we find in Gauranga. Radha Krishna. Do you follow?

Muralidhar: Yes.

I tried to express this idea in that stanza in Prema Dhama Deva Stotram, and Svarupa Damodara says:
radha krishna pranaya vikriti hladini sakti
CC1.1.5

Who is Radharani? She is the love of Krishna in a particular form. The object of love of Krishna. So there in Krishna-lila the one is Krishna, and the love and affection for Krishna is appearing in a particular form (Sri Radha). So it belongs together. Krishna is one. One. But still for the pastimes in Dvarapa-yuga They became divided in Vrindavan-lila and became two parties (Radha and Krishna), one predominating (Krishna) and that predominated moiety (Sri Radha). They parted and display in distinct forms, with their own paraphernalia, and began their pastimes in different way, their play. And again they come together, combine together, and become Gauranga. And He began to distribute Himself to the public. He is saying, "Automatically by nature, come take me, I am yours". He comes in the mood of Radharani. Their own common treasure they began to loot. They allowed themselves to be looted. Both the parties, they began to be looted by the public, "Take this!". Their treasure, they allowed their treasure to be looted. Both combined ... combined to give affection... coming as Gauranga. So Gauranga is our greater shelter.

yatha yatha gaura padaravinde vindeta bhaktim krta punya-rasih
tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmat radha padambhoja sudhambhurasih
"As much as you surrender to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, you'll find yourself safely situated in the service of Radha-Govinda. Don't try to approach Radha-Govinda directly; if you do, there may be some difficulty. But the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga will take you there safely."

If you can secure a card, an admission card, from Gauranga, you will find you are automatically present in the harem of Krishna. You are in the group of Radharani. So He is increasing the circle Himself. Admission card is issued from here (Gauranga). And you are instructed in the confidential circle of service there (Vraja). So Nityananda Prabhu tried His best: "Any way you can, connect yourself with Gauranga. Oh fallen souls, my friends, connect yourself with Gauranga. It is very easy for you. For fallen souls it is very easy to make connection with Gauranga, and then automatically everything will come unexpectedly to you, for your inner heart's satisfaction. Any way you can, connect yourself!" From door to door, he came past, saying: "Have a connection with Gauranga, have a connection with Gauranga and you will be richest of the rich." Door to door Nityananda Prabhu wandered.

bhaja gauranga kaha gauranga laha gauranganama yei jana gauranga bhaje, sei amara prana

He began to roll on the doorstep of the customers, "Take Gauranga take Gauranga" with tears in his eyes, that golden body began to roll on the door of so many customers. "Accept Gauranga, take Gauranga. You don't know what is passing away from your door, accept Gauranga". This is Nityananda.

nitaiyer karuna habe braje radha krishna pabe

Everything will be in your fist. Try to have the grace of Nityananda. He can give Gauranga. And if you get Gauranga you have got everything. The consent of both the parties, Radha-Krishna. Not only the sound of this message we must receive but also the meaning. The meaning, thereby, we are to follow; to try to follow. What is meant by these sounds.

From the external side not to consider this statement of Nityananda Prabhu, but the substance within the statement, we are to search for that. We are to search for the meaning. The real meaning, the mark, what does it mean? The substance. brahma jijnasa and krishnanusandhana: search for reality the beautiful. Dive deep. Dive. Die to Live, not only here in the surface of your sensual experience, but you are to dive - dive deep into the reality.

adau sraddha tathau sadhu sanga bhajana kriya anartha nivritti nistha ruci asakti bhava, then prema. So many stages we are to pass through, to dive deep into the reality. So many superficial covers, so many stages of our mental covers we are to pass through and then we are to come in touch of the reality. Die to live. So our prospecive state and our progress, our progressive state, that was the search; that we are to pass through, all these covers. And then enter into the substantial world.

Adau sraddha, first faith. Then sadhu sanga; then keeping company with those Aryans, sadhu sanga. Bhajana kriya then go forward, as they advise us to go on and discharge those duties. Cultivation, culture, to hear, to speak, to receive, to distribute, and so many others - the recollection and serving attitude. Then anartha nivritti, the ulterior demands of our superficial nature, they will disappear. They will disappear. Then nistha, a continuous aspiration for Krishna for the inner substance. Continuous, without any interuption by any superficial demand. Nistha, then ruci. Then taste will be created for that. Before that the taste cannot be relied on. But when, after continuous attempt for the truth, the taste will come, that is reliable, a genuine taste. Then that will increase into asakti, when we can't tolerate any separation from that taste of particular flavour, that truth, experienced, is asakti. Then bhava, a superior stage. Connection with reality. Then prema, when we enter into the reality, and then the positive development. Positive participation in reality.

Positive participation into reality, we create so many things in our minds. The process of positive progess is there. It is not imagination but the process of elimination. The progressive path involves elimination and acceptance. It is there. Then what is real to us at present, the sense experience world, that world will evaporate and we shall find ourselves in the midst of the inner world, like a yogi, like a deep scientific scholar engaged in research for getting knowledge about the world. But that is a very meagre example. More deep and interest we will find there. Rather it is like the forgetfulness of the scholar who becomes totally absorbed in his study.

We are living in the covering over the surface (the superficial layer that covers reality). The world we are living in, we are experiencing misleading things, because we are living only in the (superficial) cover. But what is the inner substance of reality -- that we do not care to know, when we are absorbed in illusion. And that reality, we are to go towards reality. Here, it is the cover floating on our consciousness. But leaving the cover we shall try to enter into deep consciousness. A consciousness! You leave the experience of this world of sense experience, thinking "I don't like this, I want to go deeper'. We are to enter into our own consciousness. Reality. It is a part of our own consciousness; it is a part of the Whole consciousness. So we are to tackle the extensive consciousness and we are a part of that. Subjective exploration, not in the objective side - in this exploiting nature.

Subjective consciousness: we shall have to enter into the causal truth. Gradually we shall find these things. The source of knowledge we are to tackle. We are to enter into the fountain from where the water is oozing. Water is coming outside through the fountain. We are to enter into the fountain to understand what type of water it is, and how it is flowing. In what way. Enter into the source of knowledge, to find out wherefrom it comes. Against the current that is flowing towards material life, we are to move against that current. And what is the product of the current just floating on our senses? That feeling we feel on the surface with our senses is reactionary (for every action there is a reaction). So we are to enter into the source to have a proper relation with the help of the agents there.

Atma, paramatma, then bhagavan conception - bhajaniya. Ultimately we shall find that we are to serve the wonderful substance of ecstasy, and if we can engage ourselves in slavery to that Higher Reality, we shall find our fortune is fulfilled. Such high, high kind of pleasure is there, satisfaction is there. Anyhow, neglectfully disconnecting with the material life and connecting with the Higher world, if we get that then we shall think all our fulfillment, our final fulfillment, we have got. A slight connection of that treasure, the source of all knowledge and all ecstasy, will be for our benefit. Subjective enquiry, conscious enquiry, going against the mundane current, is our path. We shall have to go forward.

-- Nabadwip Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, 30 August 1983
Satyabhama - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:19:28 +0530
There is one thing in particular I miss in Gaura (even the "Rasaraja" version)

That is His blackness... Something about the blackness of Shyam. I don't know why, but somehow He is so elusive... that Shyamasundara.
Madanmohan das - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:58:03 +0530
I think with the verse ending, "na caitanyA-krsnAd jagati paratattvam paramiha",
it is emphasised that there is no distinction between Gaura and Krsna, and Kaviraja Goswami, to elaborate the tattva of Gaura, simply explains the tattva of Krsna and then concludes by saying, and that Krsna is Gaura or that Gaura is Krsna.
Why should it be necessary to establish ones superiority over the other when such lengths have been taken to establish their non-distinction?
Thakura Bhaktivinoda has cautioned against seeing Gaura as the amorous hero in Jaiva Dharma, or is that a later interpolation?
If a sadhaka is practising manjari bhava upasana, how should he veiw Gaura?
In siddha baba's Gutika Mahaprabhu is not seen as the Nagara. All these points are probably delt with in Gadadharaprana dasa's books, but I still have doubts about the implications of seeing Gaura as Nagara, though he cannot be denied it, it still seems somehow inappropriate to me.
jiva - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:31:19 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Oct 20 2004, 01:49 AM)
There is one thing in particular I miss in Gaura (even the "Rasaraja" version)

That is His blackness...† Something about the blackness of Shyam.† I don't know why, but somehow He is so elusive... that Shyamasundara.



In his new book , Gadadhara Prana Prabhu writes:

When Sivananda Sena's eldest son installed a murti of Shyam Raya ( Krsna ) , Sivananda chastised him , saying : '' We've taken great trouble to change him from a blackish hue to a golden colour . Why have you made him black again ? ''.

with respect,
Satyabhama - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:02:01 +0530
QUOTE
When Sivananda Sena's eldest son installed a murti of Shyam Raya ( Krsna ) , Sivananda chastised him , saying : '' We've taken great trouble to change him from a blackish hue to a golden colour . Why have you made him black again ? ''.


Hehe. tongue.gif

Oh I have no scriptural quotations to support my reasoning, but I just plain like His darkness. He is devious, crooked. He can hide in an open space at night, because His body is the same color as the darkness. Then the pearls on His chest are the stars...

Without the black Krishna, for whom would Gaura cry out, saying:

sulalita dirghargala, krsnera bhuja-yugala, bhuja nahe,----krsna-sarpa-kaya
dui saila-chidre paise, narira hrdaye damse, mare nari se visa-jvalaya


"The two very beautiful arms of Krsna are just like long bolts. They also resemble the bodies of black snakes that enter the space between the two hill-like breasts of women and bite their hearts. The women then die from the burning poison.

tongue.gif

Anyway, He could be crying for Priyaji, but that is another issue altogether... *ahem*




jiva - Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:14:27 +0530
I didn't enlist Krishnadas Kaviraja among the Gaura-paramya-vAdIs.

But,please, just examine Kavirajapada's verses in Caitanya-caritamrta , Adi 4.225 ; or verse which begins sri krsna caitanya gosai vrajendra kumara ... ; or Adi 17 (vidya-saundarya-sadvesa-sambhoga-nrtya-kitrtanaih ...); or his quote from Gita Govinda 1.47 ( visvesam anuranjanena janayann anandam ...Also, in his prabhatika Gaura kirtana pada Kavirajapada said : smaraye nava gauracandra nagara banawari

'' Just remeber the youthful Gauracandra , Nagara vanamali.''
blush.gif

with respect,
Goracanda das

P.S. Oh , and yes , I agree with Madanmohan ji that there is no need '' to establish ones superiority over the other .''
Madhava - Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:42:45 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 20 2004, 06:44 PM)
I didn't enlist Krishnadas Kaviraja among the Gaura-paramya-vAdIs.

You posted the quotes amidst a discussion on whether Radha or Krishna is superior. The context in which you quoted the said verses seemed to suggest that you advocated Gaura as the summit of paratattva, higher than either of the two. That would be categorized as Gaura-paramya-vAda, if I am not terribly mistaken.


QUOTE
But,please, just examine† Kavirajapada's verses in Caitanya-caritamrta , Adi 4.225 ; or verse which begins sri krsna caitanya gosai vrajendra kumara ... ;

The second half of the stanza reads: rasa-maya-mUrti kRSNa sAkSAt zRGgAra. If you look at the context, it evidently speaks of Krishna as the rasa-maya-mUrti, not of Gaura, as the following verse narrates how he (Krishna) descended (as Gaura) to comprehend the rasa in question. This is also evident from the verse Kaviraja Goswami quotes from his own Govinda-lilamritam, which vividly narrates the characteristics of Sri Krishna as the zRgGAra-rasa-mUrtimAn -- the very verse you have yourself cited.


QUOTE
or Adi 17 (vidya-saundarya-sadvesa-sambhoga-nrtya-kitrtanaih ...); or his quote from Gita Govinda 1.47 ( visvesam anuranjanena janayann anandam ...Also, in his prabhatika Gaura kirtana pada Kavirajapada said : smaraye nava gauracandra nagara banawari

'' Just remeber the youthful Gauracandra , Nagara vanamali.''

Yes, that is certainly there. However I am puzzled as to how it might be relevant to the question at hand. Is there a question there? Seeing your post in the initial thread of which this sprung off, I took it that you wished to advocate Gaura as superior to Krishna. Was that the case, or was my assumption incorrect?
jiva - Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:28:07 +0530
I think that we discussed this before ?

In the opinion of Gaura-nagaris , Gauranga's qualites exceed even Krsna's , owing to his being the form of Radha and Krsna combined .

I quoted this verses because we can see throgh them that Gauranga and Krsna are both srngara rasamaya , the embodiement of erotic pleasure . Moreover , according Gaura-nagaris , Gauranga's advent is speciaficially linked with tasting of srngara rasa , just as that of Krsna is centred on His enjoyments with the gopis . Therefore Kavirajapada quotes Gita-Govindam .

After that , Kavirajapada returns to Gauranga and equate him with Krsna (C.c.Adi,4.225) ,'' Sri Krsna Caitanya is an abode of rasa, for his rasa asvadhana,relishing the mellows, extends extensively and unlimitiedly .''

Then , he doesn't directly say how Gauranga enjoys srngara rasa ; rather , he says, asesa-visese.

I agree that Kavirajapada predominantly depicted Gauranag's Radha bhava feature. Yet , it is noteworthy that these descriptions centre on only half of Gauranga's Rasaraja-Mahabhava personality . But , anyway , he wrote smaraye nava gauracandra nagara bhanawari and in Adi lila , 17.1 , tells us about Gauranga's sambhoga .

I think that this explanation can help to the people interested in Gaura-nagari vada or my assumption is , may be, incorrect?

with respect,
Madhava - Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:27:08 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 21 2004, 04:58 PM)
In the opinion of Gaura-nagaris , Gauranga's qualites exceed even Krsna's, owing to his being the form of Radha and Krsna combined.

I wonder if the question is more of Gauranga's qualities being more attractive to them. I would not go so far as to say that Gauranga's qualities exceed Krishna's, as they evidently have a good deal of different qualities in which they respectively excel.


QUOTE
I quoted this verses because† we can see throgh them that Gauranga and Krsna are both srngara rasamaya, the embodiement of erotic pleasure. Moreover , according Gaura-nagaris , Gauranga's advent is speciaficially linked with tasting of srngara rasa, just as that of Krsna is centred on His enjoyments with the gopis. Therefore Kavirajapada quotes Gita-Govindam.

I believe Kaviraja Goswami is fairly clear on what he means with Gaura's zRGgAra-rasa-asvAdana, judging by the narrations in the text itself.

dvAdaza vatsara zeSa rahilA nIlAcale |
premAvasthA zikhAilA AsvAdana-cchale || CC 1.13.39 ||

"During the final twelve years he remained in Nilachala, where he, absorbed in prema, in the guise of relishing taught others of it."


vidyApati, jayadeva, caNDIdAsera gIta
AsvAdena rAmAnanda-svarUpa-sahita

"In the company of Ramananda and Svarupa, he relished the songs of Vidyapati, Jayadeva and Candidas."

Thus the asvAdana Kaviraja Goswami speaks of is the vicarious asvAdana in the role of a sAdhana, not the asvAdana of his own zRGgAra-lIlA.


QUOTE
I agree that Kavirajapada predominantly depicted Gauranag's Radha bhava feature. Yet, it is noteworthy that these descriptions centre on only half of Gauranga's Rasaraja-Mahabhava personality. But, anyway, he wrote smaraye nava gauracandra nagara bhanawari and in Adi lila, 17.1 , tells us about Gauranga's sambhoga .

I would like to see the statement, smaraye nava-gauracandra-nAgara bhanawari, in its context. Could you type in, or scan in, a bit of the surrounding text?

The verse on "sambhoga", Adi 17.4, reads as follows:

vidyA-saundarya-sad-veza-sambhoga-nRtya-kIrtanaiH |
prema-nAma-pradAnaiz ca gauro dIvyati yauvane ||

"Educated, charming and finely clad, he took great delight in dancing and kIrtana, bestowing the prema-nAma to all; such was Gaura's brilliance in his youth."

Evidently the word sambhoga in this verse does not refer to anything of the sort we hear when reading of Sri Krishna's sambhoga-vilAsa. One cannot jump at each instance of words such as sambhoga and nAgara and think of them as supporting Gaura-nAgarI-vAda.

That being said, I wish to reiterate that I have no personal objection to Gaura-nAgarI-vAda, and am happy to see that people worship Gaura in the way they find suitable for their mood. However, and I believe I have said it before, I am in principle opposed to quoting things out of context.
jiva - Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:04:22 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 21 2004, 06:57 PM)
I am in principle opposed to quoting things out of context.



I agree with you, but I can't see what is in my posts out of context?.

However,on closer investigation ,in a verse smaraye nava gauracandra nagara banawari , we can find that Kavirajapada speak on youthful Gauracandra .

''Just remember the youthful Gauracandra , Nagara vanamali.''

The term sambhoga means Gauranga's conjugal love affairs , which are a prime feature of his youthful pastimes . Although Kavirajapada only slightly touches on Gauranga's mid-kaisora sambhoga activities , Locana dasa depicts these scenes in colorful detail (should I quote from Dhamali ?)

In this regard , Srila Kavi Karnapura's contribution is also remarkable (See CCMK 5.) as Murari Gupta's (his Karca , Part II , Chapter 10) and many , many others.

Anyway , I think that it's very important to say (for those who are not familiar with Gauranga-nagari-vada) that the vihara (enjoyment) and krida (love play) between Gaura and his devotees can only be possible with the internal nagari svarupas of such devotees .


with respect,
Madhava - Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:39:26 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM)
I agree with you, but I can't see what is in my posts out of context?

I thought I had made it fairly clear, please read my previous posts and my comments on the shlokas you referred us to.


QUOTE
However,on closer investigation ,in a verse smaraye nava gauracandra nagara banawari , we can find that Kavirajapada speak on youthful Gauracandra.

I would feel very obliged if you presented the context of this statement.


QUOTE
The term sambhoga means Gauranga's conjugal love affairs , which are a prime feature of his youthful pastimes . Although Kavirajapada only slightly touches on Gauranga's mid-kaisora sambhoga activities , Locana dasa depicts these scenes in colorful detail (should I quote from Dhamali ?)

No, I am familiar with the descriptions of Dhamali, you needn't quote. If you look at the word sambhoga in the verse, it is a far stretch of imagination to interpret it as meaning anything but his taking delight in engaging in kirtan and dance. You may interpret it as you wish, but that is certainly not the direct meaning of the verse.
jiva - Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:19:07 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 22 2004, 04:09 PM)
No, I am familiar with the descriptions of Dhamali, you needn't quote. If you look at the word sambhoga in the verse, it is a far stretch of imagination to interpret it as meaning anything but his taking delight in engaging in kirtan and dance. You may interpret it as you wish, but that is certainly not the direct meaning of the verse.

For all others who are not familiar with those descriptions ,here is a sample from Dhamali :

amara gauranga nacr hema kiraniya
hemera gache premer rasa parche cuwaiya
tara thamka kakala baka madhura makha hasi
rupa dekhite jati kula harai vasi
adbhuta natera tham gora anger chata
rupa dekhite hura pareche nava yuvatira ghata
mana maila kula dubila baiche premer ban
locana bale madana bhole ar ke ache an


As my Guranga dances , his prema rasa seeps from his brilliant ,golden efulgence , like nectar-honey oozing from a golden desire tree . Aha , what a form ! His hips are cocked crooked , while a sweet spreading smile adorns his face . Thus seeing his mohana rupa (enticing form) , my family attachment is going...going...gone ! What amazing dancing poses and bodily effulgence ! The young kisori girls of Nadiya are simply stunned ! Their minds are churning , their family ties sinking , and Cupid's arrows sail ! Locana says , since even Cupid is spellbound , who else can remain sober ?

As we can see , Gauranga indeed take delight in engaging in kirtan and dance and devotees take delight in seeing his enticing form .

with respect,
Madhava - Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:32:19 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 23 2004, 06:49 PM)
As we can see , Gauranga indeed take delight in engaging in kirtan and dance and devotees take delight in seeing his enticing form .

That would be pUrva-rAga amidst nRtya and kIrtana, not sambhoga. smile.gif
jiva - Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:47:52 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct 23 2004, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 23 2004, 06:49 PM)
As we can see , Gauranga indeed take delight in engaging in kirtan and dance and devotees take delight in seeing his enticing form .

That would be pUrva-rAga amidst nRtya and kIrtana, not sambhoga. smile.gif



First pUrva-rAga , then sambhoga . wink.gif
jiva - Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:15:34 +0530
During the Maha-sankirtana rasa in Navadvipa , Gauranga expands to be with each bhakta . Yet , Gaura's rasa exchanges secretly take place with each bhakta's exquisitely beautiful Nadiya nagari svarupa . Cc , Madhya-lila, 13.60-68 , describes Gaura's expanding himself during sankirtana at the Rathayatra.

As mentioned in those verses, the Gaura's vilasa (sporting plesure) during such pastimes can only be detected by his associates , or by advanced devotees having special divine realization , anubhava.

Gadadhara Prana explains that the word vilasa also means rati keli . Hence , when Kavirajapada equates Gaura's affairs with Krsna's affairs in the Srimad Bhagavatam , the realized Vaisnavas ( not me !) can understand to what type of vilasa he us referring .

The Srikhanda-vasis' sankirtana party is especially noteworthy . Their dancing performance took place behind Jagannatha's cart owing to the most confidential nature of their rasa exchange . The following verse from Rupa Gosvamipada's Stavamala will help to explain :

aparam kasyapi pranayi-jana-vrndasya kutuko
rasa-stomam hrtva madhuram upabhoktum kam api yah
rucim svam avavre dyutim iha tadiyam prakatayam
sa devas caitanyakrtir atitaram nah krpayatu


May Sri Caitanyadeva bestow his limitless mercy upon us . In sporting curiosity , he enjoys plundering the indescribable wealth of madhura prema from his loving bhaktas . Thus his syamala bodily hue becomes covered by their golden effulgence .


Nayananda Misra too,describes how Gauranga enjoys such pastimes with every bhakta . In his padavali (kirtana majhe kirtana nataraja / kirtana kautuka saba nagarali saja ...etc) , Nayananda Misra also uses the word kautuka as Rupa Gosvamipada . Kautuka means amusement , sporting gest , or curiosity . Thus in a mood of amused interest , the kirtana nataraja Gaurasundara watches all his associates take up their nagari roles during kirtana .

Next time , for interested devotees,I will try to explain Gaurasundara's sambhoga in some detail.
Madhava - Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:46:23 +0530
QUOTE
Hence, when Kavirajapada equates Gaura's affairs with Krsna's affairs in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the realized Vaisnavas (not me !) can understand to what type of vilasa he is referring.

Where does he equate the two like this?


QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 24 2004, 09:45 AM)
During the Maha-sankirtana rasa in Navadvipa, Gauranga expands to be with each bhakta. Yet, Gaura's rasa exchanges secretly take place with each bhakta's exquisitely beautiful Nadiya nagari svarupa .

Since no such svarUpa is taught of in the vast majority of parivars descending from Gaura's parshadas, they must have missed something big time, or otherwise somehow forgotten to teach about it to their followers. Or otherwise, perhaps this was not after all with all, but rather with some, such as Narahari and the rest.


QUOTE
aparam kasyapi pranayi-jana-vrndasya kutuko
rasa-stomam hrtva madhuram upabhoktum kam api yah
rucim svam avavre dyutim iha tadiyam prakatayam
sa devas caitanyakrtir atitaram nah krpayatu

May Sri Caitanyadeva bestow his limitless mercy upon us . In sporting curiosity , he enjoys plundering the indescribable wealth of madhura prema from his loving bhaktas . Thus his syamala bodily hue becomes covered by their golden effulgence .

This is translated a bit awkwardly. The beginning of the stanza describes Sri Krishna,
who was curious (kutuka) for the wealth of rasa (rasa-stoma) of a certain one (kasyApi) among his group of beloveds (praNayI-jana-vRnda) (namely Sri Radha), and who therefore plundered (hRtvA) these moods, enjoying (upabhoktum) some of this sweetness (madhuram ... kam api), covering (Avavre) his own complexion (dyuti) with hers. Thus he appeared as Sri Caitanya-deva.

Thus we are talking about Sri Krishna's yearning for Radha-bhava, which is at the root of the Chaitanya-avatar -- not of nAgarI-vilAsa! This is what I am pointing at when I speak of interpreting out of context. In this vein:

QUOTE
Nayananda Misra also uses the word kautuka as Rupa Gosvamipada. Kautuka means amusement, sporting gest, or curiosity.

Reading the above, it should be fairly clear that the two do not speak of the same thing. The dictionary (M-W) translation for kutuka is "curiosity", "eagerness", "desire for", and that's all there is to it. Kautuka has many more entries, among whom words related with curiosity, such as "interest in anything", "vehement impatience" and so forth. Some further entries mention "sport", "pastime" and so forth. However, this is kautuka, not kutuka. The former arises from the latter. The object of Chaitanya's kutuka as Krishna is described rather clearly in the verse cited, as well as in the text of Kaviraja Goswami. This curiosity (kutuka) for Radha's moods led to a festival (kautuka) of Radha-bhava.
Madhava - Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:48:49 +0530
QUOTE(jiva @ Oct 24 2004, 09:45 AM)
Next time , for interested devotees,I will try to explain Gaurasundara's sambhoga in some detail.

Great. However I would appreciate if you followed up on the previous points made first.
sadhaka108 - Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:21:34 +0530
Goracand Dasji,
dandavats.

QUOTE
The term sambhoga means Gauranga's conjugal love affairs , which are a prime feature of his youthful pastimes . Although Kavirajapada only slightly touches on Gauranga's mid-kaisora sambhoga activities , Locana dasa depicts these scenes in colorful detail (should I quote from Dhamali ?)


I guess you could quote from Dhamali a pada/lila with Gouranga sambhoga affair wink.gif

Your servant,
Ishvarananda Das
jiva - Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:03:16 +0530
No Problem, Isvarananda ji Prabhu .

At the present , I have no time , but stay tuned ... smile.gif
madhavachari - Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:56:13 +0530
OK...
jiva - Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:04:04 +0530
I apologize for the delay.

Instead of Locana's Dhamali , here is an example of Gaura's Rati-lila from his Caitanya mangala :

Prabhu and Priya jiís Rati Lila

tabe mahaprabhu je rasika siromani
visnupriya ange versa karena apani
dirga kesa kamera camara jini abha
kabari bandhiya dila malatir gabha
megha bandha haila jena cadera kalate
kiba udariya gile na pari bhujite
sundar lalate dila sindurera bindu
divakar kole jena rahiyache indu
sindurer candike candan bindu ara
sasi kole surjya jena dhaya dekhibar
kanjan nayane dila anjaner rekha
kama kamanera guna karilekha
agora kasturi gandha kucopari lepe
divya bastre racial kaculi paratekha
nana alankare anga bhusita tahara
tambula hasira sange vihare apara
trailokya mohini rupa nirakhe badan
adhara madhuri sadhe karaye cumber
khane bhuja lata beri alingana kare
nava kamalini jena karibara kore
nana rasa vitharahe vinoda nagara
achuk anera kaja kama agocare
sumeru kole jena vijuri prakasa
madan mugadhe dekhi ratira vilasa
hrdaye upare toy na chuyaya sajjya
pasa paltite nare duhu eka majja
mukhe mukhe buke buke rajani goyai
rasa avasade dohe sukhe nidra jaya


íí Then Mahaprabhu becomes the rasika siromani (the crown jewel of amorous romantics) as he takes to dressing Visnupriya . Thus one might guess :
Ď Are the dark clouds (Priya jiís hair) now being devoured by the moonbeams (the malati malas ) ?í
Gaura places a kunkuma bindu on Priya jiís forehead ; it appears like a sunray dotting the moon . Around the kunkuma he paints many candan stars in a circle . Aho ! Is the sun now trying to shine from the moonís surface ? Gaura paint anjana (mascara) around Priya jiís eyes . Thus her eyebrows turn into Kamadevaís canons . Gaura then anoints Priya jiís breasts with divine scents like kasturi an aguru . Then he covers them with a kanculi and dresses her in divine attire . After selecting various ornaments to decorate Priya jiís various bodily limbs , Gaura places pan in her mouth . Priya jiís smiles . She is Trailokya mohini , able to enchant everyone in the three worlds . Thus Gaura canít resist the temptation to kiss her sweet lips .
Gaurangaís arms outstretch , he embraces Srimati to his chest . Their love play resembles that of a male and female elephants. Aho ! Our enchanting nagara Gora begins his rati lila ; even Kamadeva would be astonished (what to speak of others) ! Visnupriya becomes like the lightning flashing over golden Mount Sumeru . Gauraís vilasa outmatches Cupidís prowess , and Priya ji (not touching the bed) reigns over his chest . Astonishingly , throughout the whole night their gaze remains affixed to each other (without blinking) . They are cheek to cheek , and chest to chest . Then finally they both happily fall asleep in a loving embrace .íí

It is sad to mention that two modern editions of Sri Locana das Thakuraís ''Caitanya Mangala'' (one in Bengali , the other an English translation) omit this entire chapter where Gauranga makes love to Visnupriya on the night before his taking sannyasa . It appears that the people responsible for this censoring job want to erase a very sweet and intimate side of Gaura lila . Gadadhara Prana Prabhu ji will include this chapter in his new book on Visnupriya .

with respect,