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Gaudiya Discussions Archive » PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY
Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.

diksa/guru - questions



Madan Gopal - Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:08:14 +0530
From Tripurari Swami's recent Sanga:

"A. Guru is required. One who actually takes shelter of purva acaryas will be clear on this point from reading their books. One who has found faith should associate with devotees. Within such sadhu sanga one will find one's guru. At that time the candidate can receive the diksa mantra and tailored instructions on spiritual practice. To disregard the guru is gururavajna, an offense to the holy name of Krsna. One who does not take initiation from a guru and does not follow his or her guidance disregards the guru and Sri Krsna's system of guru, sri guru-parampara (lit. one guru after another). Such a person can only chant namaparadha, chanting that is deemed offensive to Krsna nama."

First of all I'm wondering if the above quote generally jives with the assembled thinkers. Would any of you add anything or reject something from this quote?

My question (a big one in my life right now) is that as we see on this forum and from my own history I feel that in the process of developing my understanding of Gaudiya philosophy that sadhu sanga will change. With that change of sanga one's inspiration may change. One's diksa guru may not fit into that progression of faith and understanding. I guess I believe that guru is required, a teacher will always inspire one at different points in life, but why would you then take diksa again and again? I know there is siksa guru (pardon me if I'm going too ISKCON understanding with some of you) and one may have many, but I guess I'm just wondering that if you lost faith in your diksa guru or that guru did not help you past a certain point, why be stamped (initiated) under someone else. Haven't you already been initiated (started your Gaudiya spiritual understanding), given the mantra, etc?

I hope I won't be thrown into the deep dark archive department for this discussion. huh.gif
Madan Gopal - Sat, 14 Aug 2004 05:35:51 +0530
unsure.gif If this is complicated, to weave through what you may feel are my misconceptions about guru tattva, I ask you to please tolerate. Enlighten me folks! Pretty please? I appreciate this forum as one where people with diverse views do not force their ideas on others. But I want to be preached to! Is it necessary that I who (like many of you) was initiated in ISKCON, lost faith in that arrangement and now feels kind of spiritually stagnant, should look for a guru, beyond the siksa relationships I have? Don't be timid.
Openmind - Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:50:47 +0530
All I can tell you is my subjective, personal view. First of all, the thing usually called "initiation" in Iskcon (Harinam) is not an initiation, not even in GM. Outside Iskcon in every Gaudiya Vaishnava lineage initiation or diksha refers to receiving the different gayatri mantras. Thus, many devotees who consider themselves "initiated" because they received Harinam are actually not "initiated". Of course, if you received the gayatri mantras in Iskcon, that is another case. But even if you received them: if at one point you lose your faith in that guru, and you cannot take any inspiration from him, I do not see any reason not take diksha again. This specifically refers to those thousands of Iskcon devotees whose gurus turned out to be paedophiles, criminals, liars, cunning politicians etc. To me it is like a marriage. If your wife becomes a prostitute, it is all right to divorce and marry someone else, and there is no reason to live your life considering yourself eternally as the husband of your first wife. You have the right to close that part of your life, and to seek diksha and siksha elsewhere.

But then again, this is all personal and subjective. Nobody should force others to remain with a guru who they do not trust anymore, and similarly, nobody should force or push others to leave their gurus. There are many devotees who remain with their gurus even after their falldown. That is their decision, let us respect the free will of every living entity. The choice is yours to retake diksha or not.
Madhava - Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:11:05 +0530
QUOTE (mud @ Aug 13 2004, 11:38 PM)
First of all I'm wondering if the above quote generally jives with the assembled thinkers.  Would any of you add anything or reject something from this quote?

As a proud, self-appointed yet bonafide Gaudiya intellectual, I would have to agree with the learned Swami here. I might, however, want to specify the application of guror avajJa: It is not that one cannot chant anything but nAma-aparAdha without having the shelter of a guru. However, if one hears of the necessity of taking shelter of a guru, yet neglects the issue, then that would constitute the offence of disregarding the guru, or the principle of zrI-guru-tattva.


QUOTE
My question (a big one in my life right now) is that as we see on this forum and from my own history I feel that in the process of developing my understanding of Gaudiya philosophy that sadhu sanga will change.  With that change of sanga one's inspiration may change.  One's diksa guru may not fit into that progression of faith and understanding.  I guess I believe that guru is required, a teacher will always inspire one at different points in life, but why would you then take diksa again and again?

I know there is siksa guru (pardon me if I'm going too ISKCON understanding with some of you) and one may have many, but I guess I'm just wondering that if you lost faith in your diksa guru or that guru did not help you past a certain point, why be stamped (initiated) under someone else.  Haven't you already been initiated (started your Gaudiya spiritual understanding), given the mantra, etc?

As we've come to conclude in a number of threads earlier on, the issue of dIkSA in the context of Saraswata and outside is often seen in a rather institutionalized context, as a demarcation of where you stand with the two groups who have grown apart and often view each other as illegitimate.

Taking it down to a more sAdhana-involved level, the methods of arcana in different circles may vary a great deal, and since dIkSA is considered the beginning of arcana, and the dIkSA-mantras also vary, not accepting dIkSA from the line in which your resolve for arcana lies may turn out to be cumbersome. Of course, once one is established in a line of worship one is satisfied with, one can then go on learning from a number of zikSA-gurus and adding to one's current understanding without a need for new initiations.

Certainly our views may change, but generally the three main phases the Westerners undergo are ISKCON > Gaudiya Matha > Trad. Gaudiyas. That seems to be the last stop for most. Some may, with or without the steps above, go from a Jati Goswami to a Babaji or vice versa due to some internal quibbles of the tradition (such as dIkSA-guru having to be of a brahmin birth), though it is more likely that a Jati Goswami would reinitiate the disciple of a Babaji than vice-versa. Otherwise, it is unlikely that even if you moved around within the tradition, that you would have to or need to receive initiation again.

Aside that, the steps I've seen people take onwards from there are to among the Nimbarkis and the Ramanujaites, the former being closer to the Gaudiyas in the mood and methods of worship. They both are, however, different sampradayas, so dIkSA in the Gaudiya-tradition given for arcana specific to the tradition might not really be a relevant issue there.

In general, it is a good idea to find a lineage with which you are thoroughly comfortable before receiving initiation. Aside the personal charisma and qualifications of the prospective guru, you would need to study the tradition of thought he represents.
Madan Gopal - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:26:37 +0530
QUOTE (Madhava @ Aug 14 2004, 12:41 PM)
Aside the personal charisma and qualifications of the prospective guru, you would need to study the tradition of thought he represents.

How does one do this? There doesn't seem to be a bhakta program for each school! I guess association with disciples... ISKCON being a centralized institution really has this down.

Thanks for your comments Madhava and Openmind.
Madhava - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:45:18 +0530
Study the tradition of thought he represents, as in "look around and ask around, study their methods of bhajana etc."
Talasiga - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:06:43 +0530
QUOTE (mud @ Aug 13 2004, 09:38 PM)
From Tripurari Swami's recent Sanga:

"A. Guru is required. One who actually takes shelter of purva acaryas will be clear on this point from reading their books. One who has found faith should associate with devotees. Within such sadhu sanga one will find one's guru. At that time the candidate can receive the diksa mantra and tailored instructions on spiritual practice. To disregard the guru is gururavajna, an offense to the holy name of Krsna. One who does not take initiation from a guru and does not follow his or her guidance disregards the guru and Sri Krsna's system of guru, sri guru-parampara (lit. one guru after another). Such a person can only chant namaparadha, chanting that is deemed offensive to Krsna nama."

First of all I'm wondering if the above quote generally jives with the assembled thinkers. Would any of you add anything or reject something from this quote?

.......

When Gaura encouraged mass Harinaam
Was it mass aparaadha ?
Keshava - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:29:06 +0530
QUOTE (Madhava @ Aug 14 2004, 06:41 AM)

Aside that, the steps I've seen people take onwards from there are to among the Nimbarkis and the Ramanujaites, the former being closer to the Gaudiyas in the mood and methods of worship. They both are, however, different sampradayas, so dIkSA in the Gaudiya-tradition given for arcana specific to the tradition might not really be a relevant issue there.


Yes, I would agree. Gaudiya dIkSA mantras do not find any use in arcana (or anything else) for those following Ramanuja sampradaya. The only dIkSA mantra that I found in common with the ones I received in ISKCON was the savitri gayatri or brahma gayatri which all brahmins (dvijas) chant. Which as you know is not at all considered an essential Vaisnava mantra but simply a mantra that comes along with upanayanam.

I had read the aSTAkSara, dvadazAkSara and Sad akSara mantras (om namo narayanaya, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, and om visnave namah) while in ISKCON but they were not given the status of dIkSA mantras as they are in some other sampradayas.

Gopal mantra (aSTadaza akSara mantra = klim krsnaya etc) forms part of the 108 syllable sudarzana mala mantra which is of some importance to Sri Vaisnavas, but in and of itself although accepted as a Krsna mantra it is not specifically given in dIkSA, unless the person happens to be an ekanta Krsna bhakta.

Interestingly enough Narasimha mantraraja or anustub mantra mentioned in HBV and apparently used by Bhaktivinode and given by him to BSST and still given in GM by some people also finds favor and use in mantra dIkSA with Narasimha bhaktas in Sri Sampradaya.

If I were to read the section in HBV about dIkSA mamtras without knowing that it was a Gaudiya sastra I would certainly think that it was from Sri sampradaya (or possibly Madhva sampradaya).

QUOTE
In general, it is a good idea to find a lineage with which you are thoroughly comfortable before receiving initiation. Aside the personal charisma and qualifications of the prospective guru, you would need to study the tradition of thought he represents.


I would say not just "in general" but that this approach is essential. In this respect it would be nice if organizations like ISKCON and GM explain to their followers before dIkSA that the goal of Gaudiya sampradaya is raganuga bhakti, specifically Radha Krsna seva in manjari bhava.

I myself was not aware of this before I took dIkSA in ISKCON. I read the Gita and other books of ACBVSP and although I realized that ISKCON was a Caitanyite/Radha-Krsna centric sect I did not realize that it focused exclusively on this aspect as the ultimate form of bhakti. (Afterall at that time what other form of Vaisnavism was available in the West?) This became apparent to me only after reading Caitanya Caritamrta. I feel much more comfortable with a tradition that allows and encourages one to express ones devotion through any or all different aspects of bhakti and even to the particular form or forms of God (Visnu/Krsna) that one is most attracted to, rather than the "one rasa fits all" philosophy.
Jagat - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:44:08 +0530
With regards "one rasa fits all." I do believe that Saraswati's intention, and that of ACBSP, was very likely to accomodate other rasas. This explains the resistance to Raganuga bhakti.

But there is, as you quite rightly point out, a dissonance, since the sampradaya itself is so very heavily biased towards this one mood. This may not have been noticed in the Bhagavata, but in Chaitanya Charitamrita it is quite clear.

Jagat - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:49:32 +0530
QUOTE (Talasiga @ Aug 14 2004, 08:36 PM)
When Gaura encouraged mass Harinaam
Was it mass aparaadha ?

Aparadh is never more powerful than the Name.

It is a question of moving along. The Holy Name takes you under its wing, but it expects something of you. Parents are very kind in the beginning, but as the child grows older, they make increasing demands. Love requires commitment and reciprocity.

Accepting a relationship with a guru is a significant part of that. Even a formal relationship is better than none.
Madhava - Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:25:15 +0530
In regards to the idea of "one rasa fits all", this certainly is the mainstream rUpAnuga-approach, at least inasmuch as single-minded focus on cultivating a particular single mood is concerned. I do not believe, however, that the "one rasa fits all" idea is being enforced, but rather at least I personally would fondly recommend people who truly find their heart's fondness with other moods to find shelter of other legitimate traditions, to receive support and nourishment for their desired mood there.

Now, one may ask, what if I am fond of Mahaprabhu, but I still find my heart rather drawn to Narayana, or a position akin to Arjuna? Certainly one may derive inspiration from wherever it is found, but one cannot truly find his ultimate success among the followers of Caitanya unless the deepest internal ideals of Gaura are realized. And if those deepest ideals are contrary to where one's heart is being drawn, then it may be worthwhile to consider primarily affiliating oneself with a sampradaya cultivating that mood, while keeping the Gaudiya doctrines as a marginal source of inspiration.
Talasiga - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:20:06 +0530
QUOTE (Jagat @ Aug 15 2004, 12:19 PM)
QUOTE (Talasiga @ Aug 14 2004, 08:36 PM)
When Gaura encouraged mass Harinaam
Was it mass aparaadha ?

Aparadh is never more powerful than the Name.

It is a question of moving along. The Holy Name takes you under its wing, but it expects something of you. Parents are very kind in the beginning, but as the child grows older, they make increasing demands. Love requires commitment and reciprocity.

Accepting a relationship with a guru is a significant part of that. Even a formal relationship is better than none.

A very thoughtful and loving answer Jagat.

However:
The Holy Names move one on
Like the ferry of devotion.
Do not jump to a jetty
before the ferry reaches One.
Jagat - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:32:00 +0530
CREDO

Faith works in funny ways.
This lifetime has been given me
to exploring what guru, Gaura and Rupa have given:
that's my field to dig.

My premise is that there is something there,
and I'll keep scraping away,
with my limited heart and brain,
using whatever tools are available to me,
from the 5th, 15th or 21st centuries,
to trace it, to test it, to taste it.

Madhura rasa and manjari bhava
are not a nook or cranny in an arcane alleyway,
nor a stagnant pool in a slow-flowing river,
but universals with the potential for meaning to all,
even if not everyone's taste buds get it.

I was told there is treasure.
If I find some, I promise to share.
If I don't, don't mock or lament,
My arms will have grown strong from the scraping.
Talasiga - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:55:41 +0530
QUOTE (Jagat @ Aug 16 2004, 04:02 AM)
........
I was told there is treasure.
If I find some, I promise to share.
If I don't, don't mock or lament,
My arms will have grown strong from the scraping.

Someone told another about treasure. Someone could not share it.
The other had to find it himself. However the other was given a lifelong
map to help him.

Someone else feels love. She does not know what love is but she shares it.
She has no map and so she is lost in it. Such a one is treasure.
Kishalaya - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:15:37 +0530
QUOTE

but it expects something of you

Even a formal relationship is better than none


A useless God. Suggests no sense of human trails and tribulations. Just fall in line, will you! Better to be an animal and remain ignorant. Fortunately there are some who do not hold on to such a view.

I, at least, as a parent will not make such "increasing demands" to grind my own axe. For I know how it feels. Unless you yourself undergo the pain, you never know what the other guy is speaking.

This God just knows how to receive causeless love, not how to give it.
Kishalaya - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:23:02 +0530
QUOTE (Keshava @ Aug 15 2004, 01:29 PM)
In this respect it would be nice if organizations like ISKCON and GM explain to their followers before dIkSA that the goal of Gaudiya sampradaya is raganuga bhakti, specifically Radha Krsna seva in manjari bhava.

You take the words out of my mouth Keshava ji. This would have saved me a good deal of pain.

QUOTE
I feel much more comfortable with a tradition that allows and encourages one to express ones devotion through any or all different aspects of bhakti and even to the particular form or forms of God (Visnu/Krsna) that one is most attracted to, rather than the "one rasa fits all" philosophy.


Yes, this is definitely a superior deal, as far as I am concerned, which is why I am so very attracted to it, theologically, and most probably I will end up here.
Satyabhama - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:06:30 +0530
then it may be worthwhile to consider primarily affiliating oneself with a sampradaya cultivating that mood, while keeping the Gaudiya doctrines as a marginal source of inspiration.

----

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion blush.gif

You know, surrendering under a guru is a serious commitment. Choosing a guru needs as much (actually much more) care and thought as choosing a spouse. It is more intimate than a marriage, because a guru helps and regulates your relation with Krishna, and if one takes a guru whose agenda is contrary to the disciple's aspirations, needless to say, that could spell disaster...

I have the "one rasa fits all" idea in mind here. It would be counter productive if one's guru expected someone with a real taste for becoming a dasi of Radharani, to feel herself as Krishna's mother or friend, or as a sakhi of Radha... and it works both ways.

Anyway... have I said too much? biggrin.gif