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Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.

How do you know you are a manjari? - Discussions on manjari-bhava



gopidust - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:20:10 +0530
cool.gif But how do you know for certain you are a manjari in the spiritual world? Radharani has spiritual paraphernalia too I'm sure. What if you are cultivating the wrong rasa? I have some sentiment in those regards myself but I wouldn't be so bold as to claim to be a manjari. Uddhava wanted to just be a blade of grass so that the gopis would step on him.

I have a question and no other forum to ask so here goes: I know that in Krishna book when the gopis go mad in seperation from krishna one gopi pretends to be krishna and sucks the breast of another gopi pretending to be putana. Are there any female devotees in krishna's pastimes who almost exclusively serve Srimati Radharani and the other gopis and not so much Krishna? I would really just like to be a servant of the gopis. Maybe you can answer this.

Thank you very much,

your fallen servant
Madhava - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:16:59 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 22 2004, 09:50 AM)
But how do you know for certain you are a manjari in the spiritual world? Radharani has spiritual paraphernalia too I'm sure. What if you are cultivating the wrong rasa? I have some sentiment in those regards myself but I wouldn't be so bold as to claim to be a manjari. Uddhava wanted to just be a blade of grass so that the gopis would step on him.

If you study the writings of our pUrvAcAryas, such as the six Gosvamins, Narottama Das Thakura and Visvanatha Cakravartin, they invariably advocate the practice of mañjarI-bhAva-sAdhana as the unique, cherished mood of the tradition.

How do we know for certain? The heart knows, having once fallen in love with a certain mood. Additionally, for most of us anyway, our gurus have confirmed this and instructed us further in the practice of the mood.


QUOTE
I have a question and no other forum to ask so here goes: I know that in Krishna book when the gopis go mad in seperation from krishna one gopi pretends to be krishna and sucks the breast of another gopi pretending to be putana. Are there any female devotees in krishna's pastimes who almost exclusively serve Srimati Radharani and the other gopis and not so much Krishna? I would really just like to be a servant of the gopis. Maybe you can answer this.

They are precisely the mañjarIs. kAmAtmikA-bhakti (mAdhurya-bhAva, devotion of amorous feelings) is divided in two: 1) sambhogecchAtmika (a desire to enjoy with Krishna, such as the aSTa-sakhIs) and 2) tat-tad-bhAvecchAtmika (a desire to partake in Her moods), which means a desire to relish the pastimes of Radha and Krishna through singleminded fixation for the service of Sri Radha. I suggest you read for example this excerpt from a commentary on Prabodhananda Sarasvati's Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi to get a taste of the mood.

For further insights, I recommend you check out the Literature-section of Raganuga.Com and in particular the Manjari-svarupa-nirupana (first chapter, introduction to mañjarI-bhAva) available for download. The transcribed lectures on Raghunatha Das Gosvamin's Vilapa-kusumanjali should prove insightful, too. And by all means, check out the audio lectures as well.
Madhava - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:53:03 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 22 2004, 09:50 AM)
I have a question and no other forum to ask so here goes: I know that in Krishna book when the gopis go mad in seperation from krishna one gopi pretends to be krishna and sucks the breast of another gopi pretending to be putana. Are there any female devotees in krishna's pastimes who almost exclusively serve Srimati Radharani and the other gopis and not so much Krishna? I would really just like to be a servant of the gopis. Maybe you can answer this.

I spoke of the mañjarIs in the previous post, but in this case, in separation from Krishna, I believe the gopIs here are Radha's sakhIs, those who are of the same age as she is, unlike the mañjarIs.
gopidust - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:19:59 +0530
I read the excerpt from the book and have to say I can only conlude that I must have cultivated something like manjari bhava in a past life or else have just gotten some mercy of that sort in this life. I was afraid to sound like a sahajiya before but if I am then all of you are too. But I still don't claim to be a manjari. However one time I read ujjal nilmani by srila rupa goswami and shed many tears of ecstacy or sentiment one of the two after every sentence. I did not plan it that way it was just stunning to hear those things. I can only talk about these things here since noone knows who I am.
manjari - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:35:12 +0530
QUOTE
However one time I read ujjal nilmani by srila rupa goswami and shed many tears of ecstacy or sentiment one of the two after every sentence.

I think you are the right candidate for majari sadhana, their we need only to shered tears for radha rani for her dharshana.
QUOTE
I can only talk about these things here since noone knows who I am.

In this form no awe and reverence just love only, Love for radha rani and Syama sundara. As MadhavandaJI said it if you can read all these literature I am sure you will figure it out what is your inclination etc is. Unless you have some sort of manjari inclination mahaprabhu will not direct you to this web site. I feel very fortunate to be the one to see this web site. I always indebted this site and it's members.

QUOTE
But I still don't claim to be a manjari.

Maha prabhu came to give this great treasure of Manjri bhava sadhana. If you have any doubt about that, then please read the book by Dr. O.B.L Kapoor's "Chitanya and Raganuga Bhakti"
Jagat - Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:45:09 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 22 2004, 12:49 PM)
I was afraid to sound like a sahajiya before but if I am then all of you are too.... I can only talk about these things here since no one knows who I am.

It gives us great pleasure to know that you can and want to share. Here is a poem by Gopinath Basak that I really like. It has been buzzing in my head lately--

--o)0(o--

We are Radha's dasis

olo ! AmarA rAiera dAsI !
AmarA rAiera dAsI AmarA rAiera sevA bhAlovAsi


Listen everyone! We are Radha's dasis !
We are Radha's dasis
and we love to serve Radharani.


rAi jokhon je bhAve thAke AmarA ghire basi
rAi kAndile AmarA kAndi hAsile AmarA hAsi


Wherever Radha is, in whatever mood she is,
we gather around her.
If she cries, we cry;
If she laughs, we laugh.


rAi zyAmake bhAlovAse tAi AmarA-o bhAlovAsi
rAi Anugatye zyAma sevA kori dekhe rAi boRo ullAsI


Radha loves Shyam, so we love Shyam, too.
When she sees that we serve him
according to her directions,
she becomes very enthusiastic.


rAi zyAma-nAma bhAlovAse tAi AmarA nAme piyAsI
rAi sukhe nAma kori bale sei bhAlovAse kAlozazI


Radha loves Shyam's name,
so that makes us thirst for it.
And because we sing his name for Radha,
she loves him even more.


rAiera mukhe kRSNa-kathA zuni’ mora soba divAnizi
rAiera kathA kRSNa-mukhe zuni’ AmarA hoi ullAsI


Day and night, we all listen
to Radha speak about Krishna.
And when we hear Krishna speak about Radha,
that gives us great joy.


rAiera nAma-TI sAra kore zyAma bAjAya mohana vaMzI
rAiera nAme vAMzI rava zuni’ AmarA hoi udAsI


Shyam plays Radha's name, the essence of life,
as the enchanting tune on his flute.
When we hear Radha's name in the flute song,
we forget everything else in our lives.


rAiera prati apUrva pirIti koren go kAlo-zazI
rAiera prIti dekhe poRechi zyAmera premera phAMsi


The black moon Krishna has
incomparable love for Radha.
And seeing the love she has for him,
we have fallen into the net of love for Shyam.


rAiera nAme AmarA mAnI kRSNete hoi udAsI
rAi milile zyAmera sane morA kori mizAmizi


We swell with pride at hearing Radha's name,
but we are indifferent to Krishna.
Then only time we will mix with Shyam
is when she meets with him.


morA rAiera dAsI bole kRSNa kato-i vA hoy ullAsI
rAiera kRSNa bole hoi morA sadA-i zyAma pratyAzI


Krishna becomes so joyful
when he learns that we are devoted to Radha.
We always think of Krishna
because we know that he belongs to her.


rAiera sane kRSNa milana boRo-i bhAlovAsi
yugala premera sevA niye sadA modera bhAlovAsA-vAsi


We really love to see
Krishna meet with Radha.
Our only joy, our happiness, comes from serving
the Divine Couple in ecstatic love.


--o)0(o--
dirty hari - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:14:25 +0530
How do you know if you are a manjari ?

You will not know 100% until you directly come in contact with Radha Krishna.

You may have this or that feeling or mood, but that means nothing. The desire to enjoy Krishna lila in a particular way is not a "spiritual desire" in and of itself. We are taught that the highest enjoyment is that of the gopis, and that the highest possible elevation is to follow in their footsteps. So automatically within your sub conscious mind you will be attracted to that because it is natural to desire the highest position for yourself along with the most amount of pleasure available.

Is this really a "spiritual" desire or mood ? Or is it nothing more then self serving sub conscious deception ? Might these desires really be for the most possible amount of pleasure and the highest possible position that we can get for our own enjoyment's sake ?

Real rasa lila is not about what we desire for our enjoyment. It is about what enjoyment we can bring to the table for Radha Krishna. That is devotion.

Jagat - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:40:21 +0530
And this, Gopidustji, is where we differ from Iskcon and Gaudiya Math philosophy. Narottam Das Thakur, whose Prema-bhakti-candrika is probably the most important book in Gaudiya Vaishnavism after the Chaitanya Charitamrita (maybe even more important, because it's so condensed and thus shorter and more widespread), writes:

sAdhane bhAvibe jAhA -- siddha dehe pAibe tAhA
pakvApakva mAtra ei vicAra

What you meditate on in your spiritual practices is what you will attain in your spiritual body. The only difference is that one is an unripe state, the other is ripe.

Raganuga bhakti is about visualizing what you want: about picking the eternal Vrajavasis you want to follow and following them by meditating on the way you want to serve. The beginning point is identity. That is why Gopinath Basak's song is so wonderful, so powerful. It is unshakable commitment to Radha-dasya.

Manjaris are those who recognize that nobody can really please Krishna except Radha. They are the ones who have read Radha's glories in the fourth chapter of Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi-lila and seen why Krishna himself had to become Gaura in order to appreciate fully her greatness. The Manjaris are the ones who have concluded that they don't need God when Bhakti is greater than Him.

bhaktir evainaM nayati
bhaktir evainaM darzayati
bhakti-vazaH puruSaH
bhaktir eva bhUyasI

Bhakti alone will bring Krishna to you. Bhakti alone will show you Krishna. The Lord is under the empire of devotion. So verily bhakti is the greatest thing of all.

But its not OUR bhakti. The great ashraya, or reservoir, of loving devotion is Radha.

Those who recognize Radha's glories have basically two options. We are minute, tiny sparks of spiritual energy. So we can either merge into Radha's being, or we can become simultaneously one and different from her by being her dasis and serving her intimately, retaining our separate individuality. Those of us who follow Rupa Goswami consider the latter to be the superior option.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:49:57 +0530
I doubt that any committed practitioner of maJjarI-bhAva-sAdhana is in for it for a theoretical "highest pleasure" or "highest position". Wholehearted dedication to the ideal of servitude is deeply embedded in that very desired mood, perhaps more so than in that than in any of the other Vraja-moods. It is practically ludicrous to propose that climbing up the theological ladder would in any way be a prominent motive out there among those who are serious about the practice.
Talasiga - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:47:21 +0530
QUOTE (Excerpt from a Gopinath Basak poem posted by Jagat @ Jul 22 2004, 06:15 PM)

Wherever Radha is, in whatever mood she is,
we gather around her.
If she cries, we cry;
If she laughs, we laugh.


It is she
who gathers about us
our tears, our longings .....
Kalkidas - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:04:49 +0530
QUOTE (dirty hari @ Jul 23 2004, 01:44 AM)
How do you know if you are a manjari ?

Is't it supposed to be given by Guru?

QUOTE
You will not know 100% until you directly come in contact with Radha Krishna.


While coming in contact to your Vaisnava Guru you're directly coming in contact with Radha Krishna, because Guru is "bhagavad-bhaktimaya vigraha sAkSAt bhagavad-avatAra, not only the full embodiment of devotion to God, but a direct incarnation of the Lord as well", as explains Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji Maharaja in his "Sri Guru Tattva VijJAna".

QUOTE
You may have this or that feeling or mood, but that means nothing. The desire to enjoy Krishna lila in a particular way is not a "spiritual desire" in and of itself. We are taught that the highest enjoyment is that of the gopis, and that the highest possible elevation is to follow in their footsteps. So automatically within your sub conscious mind you will be attracted to that because it is natural to desire the highest position for yourself along with the most amount of pleasure available.

Is this really a "spiritual" desire or mood ? Or is it nothing more then self serving sub conscious deception ? Might these desires really be for the most possible amount of pleasure and the highest possible position that we can get for our own enjoyment's sake ?


In "Hindu's Encounter with Modernity" Shukavakji writes:

After this comes varaNa-dazA, or the stage of accepting the eleven aspects of a spiritual persona. This is the most interesting stage. Bhaktivinoda writes: “When lobha arises upon hearing RAdhA’s and KRSNa’s lIlA, the disciple may ask at the feet of his Guru, ‘Oh reverend sir, how is it possible to attain such lIlA?’ If pleased with the disciple, the guru will then mercifully explain the principles of lIlA in relation to the sAdhaka’s internal identity saying, ‘You may enter lIlA in this way. After hearing with innocence about this sacred mood, you shall accept this within your own heart.’ This is the stage of acceptance called varaNa-dazA.”
{skip}
To this description Bhaktivinoda adds one important qualification: the spiritual persona must match the natural feelings and psychology of the sAdhaka. He writes, “At the time of acceptance, after discerning one’s own ruci or taste for devotion you should humbly declare at the guru’s feet: ‘Lord, my full delight is in whatever identification you mercifully give. By nature my hankering is for this feeling, thus I am satisfied in accepting your command.’” Bhaktivinoda explains that the siddha-deha is the soul’s most precious possession so it must correspond in every way to the sAdhaka’s personal choice. If not, the required motivation to attain such a spiritual body will be lacking. He advises, “If there is no liking for the assignment of the spiritual body then one should candidly declare one’s own liking at the feet of the guru. Upon reflection the guru will give a different persona. If there is liking for it, then one’s proper persona will become manifest.” He continues, “At that time, the disciple must take full shelter of his guru and say, ‘I accept this [ekAdaza-bhAva] which you have given me as my own, not only in this life, but also after death.’”


So, Sri Bhaktivinod Thakur don't fully agree with what you said above.
gopidust - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:43:54 +0530
rolleyes.gif When i read the wonderful things about the fortunate positions of the servants of Radharani my heart ACHED out of longing for that position for myself out of lack of qualification, but I longed for it for myself. It felt like my heart was swelling up so I thought maybe this is real, my spiritual body is actually starting to manifest again within this material body. It may have started out as sentiment but now it seems more than that. I do have a guru accepted already but who it is I am keeping a secret. But it is an ISKCON guru servant of Srila Prabhupada.
Madhava - Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:02:22 +0530
As a matter of fact, that very longing is the qualification for embarking on a quest in search of the identity of a mañjarI.

tat tad bhAvAdi mAdhurye zrute dhIr yad apekSate |
nAtra zAstraM na yuktiM ca tal lobhotpatti lakSaNam || (brs. 1.2.292)

“When one hears about the sweetness of their feelings and so forth, and a desire for attaining the same awakens in the consciousness without dependence on scripture and logic, this is a symptom of the awakening of greed (lobha).”

rAgamayI-bhaktira haya ‘rAgAtmikA’ nAma |
tAhA zuni lubdha haya kona bhAgyavAn || (cc 2.22.152)

“That devotion which consists of deep attachment is called ragatmika. One who becomes greedy upon hearing about this is fortunate.”

Read more at http://www.raganuga.org/.
gopidust - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:19:56 +0530
Then why did Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who some of us accept as a devotee in the line of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, pray simply to become an insect in the house of a devotee. He did not care for any position it seems.

I mean it would be foolishness and rasabhasa for someone like me to wish to be a manjari when for all I know I am a rock in the spiritual world or something like that. My heart is burning with desire to be a manjari now after talking about it so what can I do? How can I abandon this desire? And I am sure it is coming down from my guru who has accepted me.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:30:06 +0530
That is a certain mood, dainya or humility. There is an entire genre of songs and prayers expressing one's humility. Uddhava, whom you mentioned earlier, would be another example.

If you are interested in knowing Bhaktivinoda's utmost, specific aspirations, I suggest you read his Siddhi-lalasa.
gopidust - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:32:36 +0530
Of course, he was being humble, I did not think of that. I have read most of Srila Prabhupada's books by the way.
Siddhi-lalisa was beautiful but work now and samadhi later.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:46:05 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 23 2004, 09:02 PM)
I have read most of Srila Prabhupada's books by the way.

Nice. I have read them several times over over the years, too. There are some passages I would like to share with you in this regard, passages delineating the greatest aspiration of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. In chapter Chapter 31 from Teachings of Lord Caitanya, entitled "The Supreme Perfection", the following explanation is given:

The personal associates of Radharani are called sakhis, and Her near assistants are called manjaris. It is very difficult to express their dealings with Krishna because they have no desire to mix with Krishna or to enjoy Him personally. Rather, they are always ready to help Radharani associate with Krishna. Their affection for Krishna and Radharani is so pure that they are simply satisfied when Radha and Krishna are together. Indeed, their transcendental pleasure is in seeing Radha and Krishna united. The actual form of Radharani is just like a creeper embracing the tree of Krishna, and the damsels of Vraja, the associates of Radharani, are just like the leaves and flowers of that creeper. When a creeper embraces a tree, the leaves and flowers as well as the creeper automatically embrace it. Govinda-lilamrita (10.16) confirms that Radharani is the expansion of the pleasure potency of Krishna and is compared with a creeper, and Her associates, the damsels of Vraja, are compared to the flowers and leaves of that creeper. When Radharani and Krishna enjoy Themselves, the damsels of Vraja relish the pleasure more than Radharani Herself.

Although the associates of Radharani do not expect any personal attention from Krishna, Radharani is so pleased with them that She arranges individual meetings between Krishna and the damsels of Vraja. Indeed, Radharani tries to combine or unite Her associates with Krishna by many transcendental maneuvers, and She takes more pleasure in these meetings than in Her own meetings with Him. When Krishna sees that both Radharani and Her associates are pleased by His association, He becomes more satisfied.

These two paragraphs express the essence of both the theology and determination of mañjarI-bhAva. The following passage from his commentary on Nectar of Instruction (verse 11) explains how residence at Radha-kunda while engaged in thoughts of service in the mood of the mañjarIs is the sum and substance of being a Gaudiya Vaishnava:

It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Krishna in the wake of the gopis if he once takes a bath in Radha-kunda. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Radha-kunda, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrindavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

The writings of our acharyas are full of such beautiful eulogies.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:50:16 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 23 2004, 09:02 PM)
Siddhi-lalisa was beautiful but work now and samadhi later.

I am, as most of us, working as we speak. We work towards that goal. Samadhi is attained when bhAva reaches its pinnacle, so obviously we cannot jump into samadhi overnight. However, we also should not work in ignorance of the goal we seek. If we work in ignorance of our essential goal, how will our consciousness differ from that of an ordinary fruitive worker? Certainly there is some credit in it for us, but the full benediction of devotional deeds will only manifest for the one who is intent on attaining his/her desired goal and acts in full awareness of that.
gopidust - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:17:18 +0530
Lord Caitanya in Caitanya-Caritamrta is said to have chanted, "gopi, gopi." Yet other than this reference nobody else encourages us to do this. Are we allowed to follow in his footsteps in this regard?

Lord Caitanya also had a preaching mood at one point. Srila Prabhupada wanted the benediction of preaching up to the point of his last breath (conversation with Ramesvara, lilamrta) like Arjuna. If a guru tells you what your age is and what color sari you are wearing etc., and you even have the option to tell them if you feel differently then change what they say and agree to abide by that, I hope you have full faith in such a guru. Because if they are wrong and that is your main sadhana then you have made a big mistake.

But if we try to develop our Krishna consciousness, then automatically our spiritual body will develop inside. This is different than the animals. Except for maybe the ones in Jharikanda or something. Isn't the mood of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya that of Gosthyanandi rather than Bhajananandi?
Kalkidas - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:22:01 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 24 2004, 12:47 PM)
Lord Caitanya in Caitanya-Caritamrta is said to have chanted,"gopi,gopi". Yet other than this reference nobody else encourages us to do this. Are we allowed to follow in his footsteps in this regard?

Dear Gopidust,

It is not true that "nobody else encourages us to do this." What was the purpose for writing Ujjvala-nilamani, which impressed you so much? Didn't Sri Rupa Gosvamipada write it for the sake of sadhakas, to give them vast spectrum of manjari characters to follow in the wake of?

Concerning the names of gopis and manjaris as mantras, please read Sri Gaura-govindarcana Smarana Paddhati by Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami, where he gives mantras for eight principal sakhis and eight principal manjaris of Srimati Radhika. And Sri Dhyanacandra's book is not the only one - there is paddhati by his guru, Sri Gopal Guru Gosvami with the same name (by the way - Sri Gopal Guru Gosvami underwent long systematic training in the field of Gaudiya siddhanta and practice by no other, but Gosvamis of Vrindavan) and many paddhatis and gutikas by later acaryas in Gaudiya tradition, the most famous among these is Paddhati by famous Gaudiya Saint Siddha Sri Krisnadas Babaji.
Jagat - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:53:00 +0530
A gosthy-anandi means one who enjoys the company of other devotees. There is no such thing as a pure gosthy-anandi or a pure bhajananandi. In my opinion, you have to engage in bhajan in order to make your association worthwhile.

Bhajan is about your individual sadhana, gosthi is about the social side of bhakti. You cannot have one without the other. But, ultimately, we are individuals and we are responsible for our own individual spiritual lives. If we participate in Vaishnava society, it is not to submerge our individuality there, but to serve the Vaishnava society through the full realization of our individuality.

We become individuals through self-inspection and meditation, i.e., through bhajan, as well as through interaction with others.

A madhyama bhakta is engaged in different kinds of activities: personal bhajan or worship, intimate interaction with members of his own community, specific, restricted interactions with those outside his own community.

A beginner devotee is primarily concerned with bhajan and a certain amount of limited association with others, which is almost entirely in the service the bhajan. This is actually recommended: One in the beginning stages should develop a strong Vaishnava samskara through bhajan--hearing, chanting and smarana, developing a strong sense of identity as a servant of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu/Radha-Krishna.

In other words, a beginner should restrict his association with non-devotees and cultivate Krishna consciousness through hearing and chanting, meditation and study.
Madhava - Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:05:22 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 24 2004, 12:47 PM)
Lord Caitanya in Caitanya-Caritamrta is said to have chanted, "gopi, gopi." Yet other than this reference nobody else encourages us to do this. Are we allowed to follow in his footsteps in this regard?

he rAdhe vraja-devIke ca lalite he nanda-sUno kutaH
zrI-govardhana-kalpa-pAdapa-tale kAlindI-vane kutaH |
ghoSantAv iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair mahA-vihvalau
vande rUpa-sanAtanau raghu-yugau zrI jIva-gopAlakau ||

"Hey Radhe, the most splendid girl of Vraja! Hey Lalite, hey son of Nanda! Where are you? Are you at Govardhan, at the feet of a desire tree, or at the banks of Kalindi?" Thus, greatly afflicted, they roamed about throughout the land of Vraja; Obeisances unto Rupa-Sanatana, the two Raghus, Sri Jiva and Gopala!"

We pride ourselves as being rUpAnuga, so yes, our goal is to reach the day when we will roam about, lamenting and longing for the company of Sri Yugala Kishora and the sakhIs, especially those partial to Radha. This is the example of the Gosvamins of Vrindavan, as portarayed in the final stanza of Srinivasa Acarya's prayers.
Keshava - Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:25:59 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 24 2004, 12:47 PM)
If a guru tells you what your age is and what color sari you are wearing etc., and you even have the option to tell them if you feel differently then change what they say and agree to abide by that, I hope you have full faith in such a guru. Because if they are wrong and that is your main sadhana then you have made a big mistake.

Has someone mentioned the contoversy about whether one's eternal form (siddha deha) is already fixed (GM & ISKCON) or whether it is cultivated (rest of the Gaudiya Sampradaya)?

Probably this has been discussed before and someone like Madhava could just post a link to the discussion for the information of Ms Gopidust.
Madhava - Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:54:25 +0530
QUOTE (Keshava @ Jul 25 2004, 03:55 AM)
Has someone mentioned the contoversy about whether one's eternal form (siddha deha) is already fixed (GM & ISKCON) or whether it is cultivated (rest of the Gaudiya Sampradaya)?

Probably this has been discussed before and someone like Madhava could just post a link to the discussion for the information of Ms Gopidust.

You can find links to some frequently surfacing topics here.
gopidust - Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:01:37 +0530
huh.gif What about the fact that we are not qualified to even read the exalted books like descriptions of bathing Radharani and others which I have to admit I do read whenever I get the chance?

I am not saying the other sampradayas are all sahajiyas but I for one cannot leave ISKCON and take that chance.

There is the story of the mouse who was being chased by a cat. He ran up to a guru and asked for shelter. The guru said what do you want? and the mouse said make me a cat, then a dog, then finally a tiger who began licking his lips. Many of you were brought in contact with Krishna through the bona-fide medium of Srila Prabhupada. I hope you don't again become a mouse by trying to surpass or usurp his position. Besides that, maybe you should concentrate more on the books describing the various types of sahajiyas who take everything very cheaply.

It is no surprise that having rejected Srila Prabhupada for the Gaudiya Matha that certain devotees will end up rejecting the GM's gurus also.

And I didn't cry after every single sentence while reading Ujjvala-nilamani, but enough of it. I had to put it down a lot and cry and still cannot read it again to this day.
Jagat - Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:11:25 +0530
You are already taking that risk by coming here, aren't you?

You will have to decide for yourself whether the people here are mice or manjaris!

In a way, I think that Iskcon serves the interests of raganuga bhajan by making it such a guilty pleasure. The gopis had to dodge their guardians--husbands, mothers-in-law, sisters-in-law--in order to answer the call of Krishna's flute. And even Krishna himself sent them back, but they did not listen. This is very significant, don't you think?

The call of Krishna's flute is more important than even your guru's order, believe it or not. Have you looked at this thread yet Why Did Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Come and What Did He Come to Give?
gopidust - Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:03:34 +0530
flowers.gif No I haven't read it yet but I will. I heard at a temple class that Bhaktivindode Thakura said you can change your svarupa after coming in contact with Lord Caitanya and that it even happens in the spiritual world sometimes. But as for who started up picking out the color of your sari I don't know. I would like to be born with purple earings on and wear a pink sari eternally and be 14 do you think that will happen? What if I change my mind? What if something better was there in the spiritual kingdom and I chose the wrong thing? No I will leave my eternal rasa up to whatever happens. And whatever happens will be coming down through my guru in disciplic succession. Whatever is bona-fide in the rest of the Brahma Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya I'm sure is there in the rest of it namely the more modern GM and ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada must not have wanted his male disciples to be mostly a group of unshaven men with flat cholis in dirty saris and the women a bunch of old ladies hitting other people with sticks when they walk down the road. rolleyes.gif
On the other hand if I reject my guru, sadhus and satra and say to myself,"I am a gopi!"and I'm really not what a waste when the chance was there that I could have become one the usual way. I am not prepared to take another birth in order to become one, I would rather be a blade of grass. If eventually my desire makes me into a gopi then fine. Krishna's flute is a male but he gets to enjoy the Nectar from Krishna's lips more than the gopis. All I want to do is serve Radharani under the tutalege of the gopis and help bring Radha and Krishna together.
Keshava - Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:51:25 +0530
QUOTE
But as for who started up picking out the color of your sari I don't know. I would like to be born with purple earings on and wear a pink sari eternally and be 14 do you think that will happen? What if I change my mind?


It seems that women may be at a disadvantage on this point as they usually want to be able choose different colored saris for different occasions. biggrin.gif Seriously though could someone assure us that if we go with pink that this is just to identify us in nitya lila and not meant to stifle our creative instincts. Can we wear different colors for different lilas and still have the same (pink) sari as part of our siddha deha or not?

QUOTE
What if something better was there in the spiritual kingdom and I chose the wrong thing?


I don't think that anyone who actually makes it that far, thinks like that.

QUOTE
No I will leave my eternal rasa up to whatever happens. And whatever happens will be coming down through my guru in disciplic succession.


Wait and see is a very sensible attitude. Therefore you should know theoretically from sastra what the system is then if and when the "lobha" or greed to do raganuga seva takes a hold of you, you will know it. Then that is the right time to act.

QUOTE
Whatever is bona-fide in the rest of the Brahma Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya I'm sure is there in the rest of it namely the more modern GM and ISKCON.


I'm glad we dropped Madhva from B(M)GVS biggrin.gif, but I am not so sure that this is true. There are definitely differences. So it behooves one to investigate the differences and come to one's own conclusions.

QUOTE
On the other hand if I reject my guru, sadhus and satra and say to myself,"I am a gopi!"and I'm really not what a waste when the chance was there that I could have become one the usual way.


No one is suggesting rejecting guru, sadhus or sastra. It is possible to perform raganuga seva without doing any of these things. (The assembled gopijan can correct me if I am wrong about this)

Could you please explain what you think is the "usual way" of becoming a gopi? And how this differrs from what is presented here?

QUOTE
I am not prepared to take another birth in order to become one, I would rather be a blade of grass. If eventually my desire makes me into a gopi then fine. Krishna's flute is a male but he gets to enjoy the Nectar from Krishna's lips more than the gopis. All I want to do is serve  Radharani under the tutalege of the gopis and help bring Radha and Krishna together.


I think the point being made here to you is that the Gaudiya position is that they have identified the topmost position attainable by jivas (manjari bhava) and they therefore believe that one should try to attain that. Aim high. What is the problem if you don't become a gopi as long as you make it to some position of service in the spiritual world?
Madhava - Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:09:26 +0530
QUOTE (Keshava @ Jul 25 2004, 08:21 PM)
It seems that women may be at a disadvantage on this point as they usually want to be able choose different colored saris for different occasions. biggrin.gif Seriously though could someone assure us that if we go with pink that this is just to identify us in nitya lila and not meant to stifle our creative instincts. Can we wear different colors for different lilas and still have the same (pink) sari as part of our siddha deha or not?

Obviously you will have many different kinds of dresses. Whatever you wear is the prasadI of Radha, and she may bless you with a new (second-hand smile.gif) sari anytime.
gopidust - Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:28:23 +0530
I have disobeyed Srila Prabhupada's instructions and bathed directly in Radha Kunda based on Srila Prabhupada's own translation of the Nectar of Instruction. I took that risk and still don't know to this day whether it was right or wrong. All I know is I could not help myself, I had to bathe in the kunda at any cost. And I have no lamentation except for the fact that I was an offender by placing my feet in the lake, along with the rest of my body.

So I feel pretty safe with my position in the spiritual world. I would love to be a servant of the manjaris in a female form and part of Radha and Krishna's pastimes. And I do feel already that this is a strong desire. Besides Radha Kund I also especially identified with another place of Srimati Radharani's pastimes in Vrndavana. That is the place I wish to visit every time I get to go there again as well.

Everything is available for spiritual advancement in Prabhupada's society. If we follow our guru who is following Prabhupada and all the previous acaryas all the back up to the spiritual world we are actually following a lineage of gopis as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is a gopi and Bhaktivinode Thakur, etc.

That's all for now. ys gopidust
manjari - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:28:55 +0530
QUOTE
I took that risk and still don't know to this day whether it was right or wrong. All I know is I could not help myself, I had to bathe in the kunda at any cost. And I have no lamentation except for the fact that I was an offender by placing my feet in the lake, along with the rest of my body.


Exactly. I had the same fear of taking a dip in Radha Kunda before. So much guilty conscious. Whenever any disease or anything happened to me, then I used to think, "Oh, my God! I took bath in the Kund, and that is why I am suffering now." So much tension when I was in Iskcon really; now I am so peaceful. Believe me, now I go to Radha Kund and take as many baths as I can, thinking one day she will shower prema on me. In this parivar, there is no fear at all -- only love. Enjoy the bath without having any fear or guilty conscious.

We are not at all against Prabhupad. We point out the deviation in that sampradaya, that is all. We do appreciate him a lot for bringing us into Krishna consciousness. When I visited Radha Kund, I met a few western devotees in traditional parivar who keep Prabhupad's picture on their altar. So they said they do appreciate his help.
gopidust - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:00:56 +0530
This is in response to the devotee who asked what is the usual way to become a manjari? I just read on a thread that a previous acarya started the line of choosing your siddhadeha or at least condoned it so obviously it is bona-fide under the right conditions. But I also heard that Prabhupada had one disciple who wanted to perform just sadhana all the time and he let him try. But eventually all the devotee meditated on was sex life and he "blooped". That is why I for one am staying in ISKCON and performing service. I feel it will work for me. My spiritual body will develop. So that is the usual way of becoming perfect for devotees in ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada said he would personally take his disciples back to godhead if they just chanted and served? I am not sure of the quote. If I had not come into contact with ISKCON I might have followed someone in Vrndavana and taken my chances, but having come into contact with ISKCON I will not leave.
Manjari I would have to disagree that there is no talk on this subject at all within ISKCON. Almost everything I have talked about in here I already knew about from books such as NOI and others. From the time I heard about Radha kunda I always wanted to bathe there and naturally knew I would develop love of god in the wake of the gopis, where as other devotees have actually expressed their already existing mood of serving Krishna as his mother or cowherd boyfriend. In fact I think I was chastised one time for expressing the desire to become a gopi by a devotee who said, " Oh so you want to be better than Mother Jasoda?". So it all comes down to getting the right guru. Everything will be revealed automatically to the devotee.
Jagat - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:10:43 +0530
What is blooping? Leaving Iskcon?

Many of us here think that leaving Iskcon was a jolly good step to take in the direction of attaining Krishna.

I am not recommending that to you, but simply stating that attaining Krishna is not restricted to being in Iskcon. Radharani might surprise you and reveal that bhakti is also all-pervading. If she has taken hold of you, she might never let go, no matter what you do.

And what you do now might not be the best thing for you tomorrow. Today you love sweets, tomorrow you have diabetes and no sweets allowed.
gopidust - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:17:14 +0530
I'm not saying I already have gopibhava or whatever, just some desire to attain it. Srila Prabhupada said when you throw a rock in the middle of a lake the sound it makes is "bloop!". So when a devotee leaves Krishna consciousness to fall back into the material world he "bloops" and you never know when he will come back again or be seen because the water is so deep and he is so covered over.
gopidust - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:45:52 +0530
So leaving ISKCON is the best way to become Krishna conscious? It sounds like those people in India who worship a Deity to become self-realised and then when they realise they are Krishna they kick the Deity off the altar. Anyone who is pure will also recognise the purity that is there in krishna consciousness and Srila Prabhupada.

Even though I appeared to reject Prabhupada, what I actually thought I was rejecting was the more modern advice not to bathe in Radha Kunda since in the beginning of ISKCON Prabhupada allowed his disciples to bathe. I couldn't see why I was being punished because of some earlier disciples fooling around.

But without having a pure devotee, uttama adhikari guru to follow the chances are not as good for approaching Srimati Radharani, are they? Or doesn't it matter? I would love to get a drop of Her mercy. Srila Prabhupada said, "I am always praying to Srimati Radharani not to fall down."

Your fallen servant, gopidust
Tamal Baran das - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:24:58 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 26 2004, 01:58 PM)
I have disobeyed Srila Prabhupada's instructions and bathed directly in Radha Kunda based on Srila Prabhupada's own translation of the Nectar of Instruction. I took that risk and still don't know to this day whether it was right or wrong. All I know is I could not help myself, I had to bathe in the kunda at any cost. And I have no lamentation except for the fact that I was an offender by placing my feet in the lake, along with the rest of my body.

That's all for now. ys gopidust

Dear Gopidust,

There is nothing more beautiful than to immerse oneself into the Sri Radhakunda on the Holy Appearance day of Radhakunda at midnight. The whole Sri Radhakunda, pilgrims, children, animals, sadhus (female, male and the ones you can't see by your eyes too...), everybody is there waiting for that glorious moment.Candles are burning all around the Radhakunda, people aresinging:Jay Sri Radhe, and other songs to glorify Sri Radhakunda.

I remember that i have seen my dear Guru Maharaja on the opposite side where i was, coming from the side of Sri Jahnava Gat. He was gave me an order days before and on that day to take bath in Sri Radhakunda. It was something to remember forever.
My dear gurubrother Yugal Kishore Das was staying that night by us in the house, and we took bath together.

Dive in, on that day, and you will taste nectar....trust me.. smile.gif
Tamal Baran das - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:40:32 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 26 2004, 08:30 PM)

My spiritual body will develop. So that is the usual way of becoming perfect for devotees in ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada said he would personally take his disciples back to godhead if they just chanted and served? I am not sure of the quote. If I had not come into contact with ISKCON I might have followed someone in Vrndavana and taken my chances, but having come into contact with ISKCON I will not leave.
Manjari I would have to disagree that there is no talk on this subject at all within ISKCON. Almost everything I have talked about in here I already knew about from books such as NOI and others. From the time I heard about Radha kunda I always wanted to bathe there and naturally knew I would develop love of god in the wake of the gopis, where as other devotees have actually expressed their already existing mood of serving Krishna as his mother or cowherd boyfriend. In fact I think I was chastised one time for expressing the desire to become a gopi by a devotee who said, " Oh so you want to be better than Mother Jasoda?". So it all comes down to getting the right guru. Everything will be revealed automatically to the devotee.

Will your spiritual body simply develop in some sort of Buddhist meditation endorsed by certain authorities, in which you have to neglect thinking of the spiritual body, but you just have to work hard and then samadhi later, so the body will blow up by itself, like some sort of jolly good baloon ? blink.gif

Materials you have read in books like NOI are very fine, essential and very advanced, but you still didn't see or read other materials. Go around this forum and both the websites in your spare time... You will find goldmine here...

Yes, it does comes down to getting the right Guru. I felt it since first time i saw my Gurudeva.It is undescribable feeling.
Tamal Baran das - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:57:30 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 26 2004, 01:58 PM)
Everything is available for spiritual advancement in Prabhupada's society.

I remember i had good prasadam in some places in Iskcon. Especially in Germany during the Harikesas reign, and it was sankirtana fever, so everything had to be cooked perfect.

I was also in the Govindas in London last week. They do not object us (my wife, son and myself) visiting deities or taking prasad in the restaurant, although they certainly know that we are outside of Iskcon. Funny enough, manager is Croatian devotee, which knows me very good, but doesn't like me so much because i have left Iskcon.
Good subji anyway.... cool.gif

gopidust - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:48:06 +0530
I feel that midnight dip in the lake might be ok, but I doubt I would go otherwise anymore because of the offense of putting my feet in. I would like to see Sri Ananta Das Babaji just to see what he is like. I am not saying only ISKCON is bona-fide. SP said there are still 300,000 sadhus in India, so certainly there could be a pure devotee available elsewhere.

Well enough of my hogging up the space here with my useless opinions. gopidust
Madhava - Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:57:24 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 27 2004, 01:18 PM)
I feel that midnight dip in the lake might be ok but I doubt I would go otherwise anymore because of the offense of putting my feet in. I would like to see sri ananta das babaji or whatever his name is just to see what he is like.

You can find some video clips here. Of course it isn't the same as the real thing, but you get an idea.

When we enter Radha-kunda, we offer prayers first to offer due respect to her premamayI-waters, and after respectfully bathing with love, we again offer prayers. If you do not live in Vraja in a prayerful mood, wherever you place your feet you will offend the dhAma with your prideful steps. Of course the sAdhus of the dhAma are merciful and will instruct you with their example on the proper ways of humility. I vividly remember one person who as his daily sAdhana comes to offer obeisances falling flat on the ground to whosoever happens to pass by, whether a sAdhu, a local resident, a cow or a dog. The only thing I've ever heard him say is "You are great." I responded, "No, you are great." He responded, "No, I am dog, you are great," and danced away with a jolly smile on his face.
gopidust - Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:46:40 +0530
For Jagat,

Didn't they used to worship the Bhagavatam in the early days at least on Sankirtana parties before getting Dieties? I know this must be different from what you are talking about.

As for the spiritual body developing,there are two examples I recall. One is the unripe mango. It is still a mango but unripe, so our spiritual body is there but not fully. It is still developing. The other example is when our spiritual body becomes fully developed it will be like a dried out coconut inside the hardened shell.

I tell you Prabhu nothing is higher than Radha Kund. Everything is there in ISKCON. I don't know why you say you never heard about this stuff.

ys gopidust
TarunGovindadas - Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:39:05 +0530
a little behind topic, as usual, but:

i am very happy to be considered as someone who blooped.

i blooped in the nectar-ocean of Srila Ananta das Babajis instructions.

tongue.gif
Tamal Baran das - Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:58:39 +0530
QUOTE (TarunKishordas @ Jul 29 2004, 09:09 AM)


i blooped in the nectar-ocean of Srila Ananta das Babajis instructions.

tongue.gif

A good one.... wink.gif
gopidust - Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:13:09 +0530
And what does Srila Ananta Das Babaji say about Srila Prabhupada? Will some of you be wearing saris at your convention this year in New York? Or is that another bona-fide sampradaya?
Tamal Baran das - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:41:57 +0530
QUOTE (gopidust @ Jul 29 2004, 11:43 AM)
And what does Srila Ananta Das Babaji say about Srila Prabhupada? Will some of you be wearing saris at your convention this year in New York? Or is that another bona-fide sampradaya?

Dear Gopi dust,

Reading all your posts makes me feel like you are not such a young personality, as much as you try to depict yourself to be, here in this forum. I will say that you are here with certain goal in mind.

Why are you here, and what is the outcome you want to get by joining this sanga and nice devotees from this forum, if you mind me not asking you that, in a very straightforward way?

Please, do not take offence whoever you are, man or woman. It is just the way you are communicating sometimes.

Why that comment about devotees wearing sarees? blink.gif
gopidust - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:09:05 +0530
My parents raised me a devotee. I came here and learned a lot so far because I get answers to my questions. I am presently in a female body. I seriously want to know whether it is considered bona-fide somewhere for men to dress as women to help them in their sadhana and if any of you do it. I also want to know why old women in Vrndavana whack ISKCON devotees on the behind as they walk by them. I can't ask I am not there and don't speak brijabasi.

I made a mistake about gopiswara Siva being in the Srimad Bhagavatam it must have been the Caitanya Caritamrta but I know it was in Srila Prabhupada's books somewhere I was only trying to help.

Why do you say I sound much older am I so obviously intelligent? smile.gif ys gopidust
I also want to know what the Babaji says about Srila Prabhupada if anybody knows.
gopidust - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:53:55 +0530
rolleyes.gif I just read Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu his life and teachings by Bhaktivinode Thakura available at a link on Gaudiya discussions under the topic of Bhaktivinode predicting Prabhupada. Anyway I heard in an Iskcon class that he was originally doing the manjari thing with his one guru but later switched.

Here is what he wrote about 7/8's of the way through, "We must therefore cultivate bhakti, being always free from the two contending principles, i.e. a desire for bhukti or selfish enjoyment and a desire for mukti or salvation. We must depend on krishna to give us mukti or not as it pleases him. We must pray for continual development of our religious sentiment Bhakti alone. Priti or pure love is the final object of our existence."

Sounds a lot like my understanding from being an ISKCON devotee. Must be from being in the lineage. It is said to be a material desire by Bhaktivinode Thakura in the statement before this to pray for salvation I believe.
ys gopidust
Jagat - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:55:56 +0530
Gopidust Devi,

I guess this just shows that some people here are a little sensitive. From time to time people with strong affinity to one or another Vaishnava group try to get our goat with questions like that.

You fascinate us...

Keshava - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:11:19 +0530
Dear Ms Gopidust,

I am interested in your question about the wearing of saris, the traditional dress of Indian females.

You ask whether anyone following the raganuga sadhana of manjari bhava would wear a sari. But specifically you mean, do those devotees who find themselves within physically male bodies wear physical saris. Right?

No doubt anyone externally male or female following manjari bhava wears a sari at least internally. Is this not the more important issue than the externals?

It may be that you automatically associate the physical wearing of saris by males as a sahajiya act. But come to think of it, why should it necessarily be?

Are you ethnically Indian? If not then what is your reason for wearing a sari?

Is it not worn to identify yourself with a particular culture?

Is it not considered devotional clothing?

So since it is OK for you to wear a sari as a devotional item why should it not be OK for others following the same devotional path?

Surely denying some devotees the right to wear the devotional attire that most closely adheres to their philosophical ideals is sexist.

Being verbally abused for wearing a dress never stopped me from wearing a dhoti wherever I pleased even in outback Australia.

So my point is that you should consider your attitude towards who can wear what. If you do then you will find that it is only your material conditioning that makes it unacceptable for you to see certain people wear saris.
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:50:35 +0530
QUOTE
I also want to know what the Babaji says about Srila Prabhupada if anybody knows.


Srila Ananta das Babaji has high regards toward AC Bhaktivedanta and his achievements.

you will never hear Babaji Mahasaya speak ill of others.

i asked him several questions about different persons who strongly speak against him.
he never said anything bad about these persons.

he is, at least for me, the epitome of humbleness.

Dandavats,
Tarunji

biggrin.gif
TarunGovindadas - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:36 +0530
Dear Ms gopidust,

joy Radhe!

QUOTE
I seriously want to know whether it is considered bona-fide somewhere for men to dress as women to help them in their sadhana and if any of you do it.


bona-fide.
that was my favourite word in my ISCKON/GM-time ( more than 14 years).
really, what is meant by "bona-fide"?
who sets the standard of "bona-fideness"?
very difficult.
and pretty useless.

what is "bona-fide" for one devotee may not be "bona-fide" for another one.

i am just reading, besides Babaji´s books, Gadadhara pran das´ version of "Dhamali".
although i am not inclined to follow the nagari-bhava-upasana, i still like the padas of Srila Locana Dasa Thakur. it helps me to develop attraction and admiration for Sri Gauranga. there are a LOT of beautiful descriptions of Him, written down eye-witness-like. i find it very interesting how much variety one can find in approaching one´s beloved form of God.

and trust me, my mind still has an ISKCON-dhoti in his cupboard,,,, biggrin.gif

i also asked myself a million times "what is bona-fide" and what the heck not.
but i came to the conclusion that this is useless for me.
what do i gain by coming to the point of a certain "bona-fideness"?
not much.

just categorizing...

every jiva has his unique relationship to their Lordships.
there are lots of jivas, lots of lilas, lots of possibilities to be attached to a certain lila, including its persona.

in the book "The Life of Love" by O.B.L Kapoor one can read about disciples of Barha Baba who dressed themselves as females.

now of course there were scandals where some male people dress up as gopis and did all kinds of questionable things.

but if a sincere sadhaka, honest in his strivings, dedicated to the path of pure bhakti, decides to dress himself as a female because it helps him developing his prema-bhakti, who are we to judge?
and why to judge anyway? to judge means to put oneself higher than the rest!

so, i personally stopped viewing the world and the realm of spirituality in terms of "bona-fide", meaning "black/white".
all is very colourful!

since i am in no way "bona-fide" ( biggrin.gif ), i rather try to follow the path which is right for me, but with an open heart and an open mind-horizon.

all the best
Tarunji

wink.gif
Madhava - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:50:26 +0530
In regards to Baba's views on Prabhupada, as a general principle he is respectful of people, and in regards to Prabhupada, he certainly respects his substantial achievements in spreading bhagavat-dharma on the Western soil. That is not, however, to say that he would agree on everything Prabhupada taught. In fact, one may have difficulties finding acharyas even within the Gaudiya Math who agree cent percent with everything he taught, what to speak of outside. Gaudiya Vaishnavism as a tradition is very plural in nature.
Madhava - Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:54:11 +0530
In regards to men wearing saris, there are several older topics where this has been discussed. For example:

- The Power of Wearing a Sari and Bangles
Elpis - Sun, 01 Aug 2004 09:08:14 +0530
QUOTE (Jagat @ Jul 24 2004, 11:23 AM)
There is no such thing as a pure gosthy-anandi or a pure bhajananandi.

The story of Echo and Narcissus comes to mind. Narcissus refused Echo's love, i.e. rejected the mediation of another person in the development of his personal self. Punished for this by Nemesis, he became enchanted by his own reflection.
betal_nut - Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:30:46 +0530
The ladies in Goloka Navadwip wear saris.

The ladies in Goloka Vrindavan wear choli-lehanga-chunni.

This conversation is irrelevant since the gopis don't even wear saris.
Kishalaya - Sun, 01 Aug 2004 22:50:23 +0530
QUOTE (betal_nut @ Aug 1 2004, 09:30 PM)
This conversation is irrelevant since the gopis don't even wear saris.

I don't think so!

But I don't have any "tradition" to substantiate my claim laugh.gif