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Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Atonement after breaking vows - Descriptions of ways of atomenet sought



kalki - Wed, 26 May 2004 11:01:55 +0530
I am in search of any injunctions stated in vaishnava sastra that states some procedure for atonement in cases of a devotee breaking the vows within their ashram, ie, a sannyas guru that has sex with a woman.

Satsvarupa Maharaj stated there is no such need as he says: "It is stated in the Nectar of Devotion that if a devotee commits a mistake he does not have to perform some atonement or prayascitta. He just picks himself up and goes right on with his devotional service. So I acted in that way."


Okay so just looking for some sastric reference where atonement is stated, this is not for the purpose of prajalpa type discussion.
Madhava - Thu, 27 May 2004 02:55:11 +0530
Rather than searching for statements to serve your purpose, why not inquire into whether the vaiSNava-zAstras endorse the path of various atonements for bhakti-sAdhakas?

Bhagavata (6.1.7-19) does not place much value on various atonements, as it considers acts of devotion to be the ultimate and all-auspicious atonement.

The statement of NOD on prayazcitta being unnecessary is derived from BRS 1.2.63.

ananuSThAnato doSo bhakty-aGgAnAM prajAyate |
na karmaNAm akaraNAd eSa bhakty-adhikAriNAm ||63||
niSiddhAcArato daivAt prAyazcittaM tu nocitam |
iti vaiSNava-zAstrANAM rahasyaM tad-vidAM matam ||64||

zrI-jIvaH : tad evam anyAbhilASitA-zUnyatvam iti sthApitam | tat-prasaGga-saGgatyA sarveSAm apy adhikAritvaM darzitam | tatra zaGkate—nanu, bhavantu sarva evAdhikAriNaH, kintu sva-sva-dharma-yuktA eveti yujyate | taM vinA pratyavAya-zravaNAt | tathA sarveSAM prAyo niSiddha-karma Apataty eva | sati ca tena duSTatve kathaM zuddhatvaM syAt ? kRte ca prAyazcitte karmAvRtatvam Apadyate ? tatrAha—api ceti | bhakty-aGgAnAM nityAnAM iti jJeyam ||63||

daivAd iti | yasya bhaktau tAdRzI ruciH zraddhA vA jAtA, tasya tu vikarmaNi svataH pravRttir na sambhavaty eveti bhAvaH | prAyazcittaM tu nocitam iti bhakti-prabhAva eva tat-prAyazcittAya kalpata iti bhAvaH ||64||

mukundaH: nanu, bhavantu sarva evAdhikAriNaH, kintu teSAM sva-sva-dharmo niSiddhAcaraNe prAyazcittaM ca doSa-nivartakatvAt kartavyam eva | tatrAha—nocitam iti | daivAd iti bhakty-adhikAriNAM vikarmaNi svataH pravRttir na jAyata iti bhAvaH | prAyazcittaM tu nocitam iti teSAM bhakti-prabhAvAd eva vikarma-pApAsparzaz ceti bhAvaH | yathA itihAsa-samuccaye—lipyate na hi pApena vaiSNavA viSNu-tatparAH iti ||63-64||

vizvanAthaH : bhakty-adhikArANAM janAnAM bhakty-aGgAnAm ekAdazI-vrata-janmASTamy-Adi-nityAGgAnAM akaraNe doSaH | na karmaNAm akaraNAt | daivAt prAcIna-vaiSNavAparAdha-doSa-vazAt | na tu zuddha-bhaktAnAM vikarmaNi svataH pravRttiH sambhavatIti prAyazcittaM nocitam iti bhakti-svabhAva eva tat-prAyazcittAya kalpate iti bhAvaH | iti vaiSNava-zAstrANAM tAtparyArtha-vinirNayaH ||63-64||

Of course the renunciate who has broken his vows should act in the manner of a devotee, rebuking himself and regretting the event; not that it is brushed off with a simple disclaimer along the lines of: "Well, I don't need to atone for anything, after all I'm a devotee!" Such an attitude would fall within the realm of nAmno balad yasya hi pApa buddhiH.
kalki - Thu, 27 May 2004 12:12:10 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 26 2004, 09:25 PM)
Rather than searching for statements to serve your purpose, why not inquire into whether the vaiSNava-zAstras endorse the path of various atonements for bhakti-sAdhakas?


Thank you for the contribution. But what purpose do you think I had in mind. It seems your wording of my purpose is the seem as I stated
QUOTE
  I am in search of any injunctions stated in vaishnava sastra that states some procedure for atonement in cases of a devotee breaking the vows within their ashram, ie, a sannyas guru that has sex with a woman.


Just becasue I mentioned an example doesn't mean I have some agenda.
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 12:47:48 +0530
I think that the infamy of a vrata-bhanga (breach of a vow) is the worst punishment for a sannyasi/babaji/sadhu.

sambhAvitasya cAkIrtir maranAd atiricyate (Gita 2.34)

"For those who have enjoyed worship, infamy is worse than death."

sannyAsIr alpa cchidra sarva loke gAy;
sukla vastre masi bindu yaiche nA lukAy
(C.C.)

"All the people sing of the slightest fault of a sannyAsI;
just as an ink stain cannot be hidden on a white cloth."
Madhava - Thu, 27 May 2004 18:04:31 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ May 27 2004, 06:42 AM)
QUOTE(Madhava @ May 26 2004, 09:25 PM)
Rather than searching for statements to serve your purpose, why not inquire into whether the vaiSNava-zAstras endorse the path of various atonements for bhakti-sAdhakas?

Thank you for the contribution. But what purpose do you think I had in mind. It seems your wording of my purpose is the seem as I stated
QUOTE
  I am in search of any injunctions stated in vaishnava sastra that states some procedure for atonement in cases of a devotee breaking the vows within their ashram, ie, a sannyas guru that has sex with a woman.

Just becasue I mentioned an example doesn't mean I have some agenda.

Well, you asked for references on atonement instead of asking whether atonement was necessary. It sounded like you wanted to directly or indirectly make someone atone without considering whether it is in harmony with vaiSNava-zAstra. Why search for such injuctions before clarifying whether they are necessary to begin with?
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 18:20:07 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 27 2004, 03:17 AM)
I think that the infamy of a vrata-bhanga (breach of a vow) is the worst punishment for a sannyasi/babaji/sadhu.

sambhAvitasya cAkIrtir maranAd atiricyate (Gita 2.34)

"For those who have enjoyed worship, infamy is worse than death."

sannyAsIr alpa cchidra sarva loke gAy;
sukla vastre masi bindu yaiche nA lukAy
(C.C.)

"All the people sing of the slightest fault of a sannyAsI;
just as an ink stain cannot be hidden on a white cloth."

For the bAbAjI perhaps, as he stays in one place. For the sannyAsin I would say no, but note that I am talking about sannyAsa as described in the sannyAsopaniSads, not the modern GM kind. Atonements for sannyAsins who have sexual thoughts or who have sexual intercourse are prescribed; they generally direct the renouncer to recite a mantra a great number of times. (I cannot remember the exact details, but I can look it up.) Infamy, however, is never mentioned, and perhaps for good reasons: a sannyAsin is always moving without a fixed destination; he is a vagabond. He is not allowed to remain for long in one place. So why would he necessarily care about what people there think? He will probably never see them again. He is supposed to be beyond these things anyway, or so the texts say--that is the only context where honor and dishonor comes up: the sannyAsin is beyond these and is not disturbed by them. A sannyAsin is focused on himself and his spiritual practice; he will not pay any attention to what people in general gossip about. If he is serious, he will do his atonement and continue his practice, and that is that. KRSNa's words in the GItA are aimed at a kSatriya, a person with a different disposition.
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 18:54:01 +0530
QUOTE
For the sannyAsin I would say no, but note that I am talking about sannyAsa as described in the sannyAsopaniSads, not the modern GM kind.


sannyAsopanishads? blink.gif

QUOTE
Atonements for sannyAsins who have sexual thoughts or who have sexual intercourse are prescribed; they generally direct the renouncer to recite a mantra a great number of times. (I cannot remember the exact details, but I can look it up.)


Madhava already quoted from the Bhagavata and BRS that for a chanter of the name of Vishnu no atonement is required. Perhaps these prescriptions you know of refer to those who are either not Vaishnavas or are not aware of the benign redeeming power of the holy name?

QUOTE
Infamy, however, is never mentioned, and perhaps for good reasons: a sannyAsin is always moving without a fixed destination; he is a vagabond. He is not allowed to remain for long in one place. So why would he necessarily care about what people there think? He will probably never see them again.


It is really infamy to himself, rather than in the communities where he is known. That is, his personal honour and conscience is damaged. That also goes for the kapat sadhu who secretly breaks his vow. The community may not know it, but he himself faces infamy and a bad conscience.

QUOTE
He is supposed to be beyond these things anyway, or so the texts say--that is the only context where honor and dishonor comes up: the sannyAsin is beyond these and is not disturbed by them.


If he is so aloof he would not fall down in the first place and if he falls down he will not be aloof, as I said at least from his own conscience.

QUOTE
KRSNa's words in the GItA are aimed at a kSatriya, a person with a different disposition.


True, honour is important to the ksatriya (BG 18.43) but everyone else has a sense of honour too. It is a general rule, particularly for the sambhAvita, a person who has enjoyed honour like sannyasis typically do, hence I added the quotation from the CC about sannyasis. I could have picked out a similar quotation in a different context, but this is the one I know best.
Madhava - Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:06 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 27 2004, 01:24 PM)
QUOTE
Atonements for sannyAsins who have sexual thoughts or who have sexual intercourse are prescribed; they generally direct the renouncer to recite a mantra a great number of times. (I cannot remember the exact details, but I can look it up.)

Madhava already quoted from the Bhagavata and BRS that for a chanter of the name of Vishnu no atonement is required. Perhaps these prescriptions you know of refer to those who are either not Vaishnavas are not aware of the benign redeeming power of the holy name?

Of course, in the ISKCON/GM scenario we might want to see the sannyAsins perform some sort of atonement, so as to not generate an atmosphere in which people can get away with any damn thing. Chanting a mantra, such as the gopAla-mantra, a great number of times would indeed come as a good compromise between the bhAgavata-conclusion of bhakti alone as the purifier, and the rigid prescriptions of the dharma-zAstras. I would personally be happy to see such a thing taking place, as that would be an indicator that the person who has erred takes his fault with a grave heart and repents his mistake.

One can chant roughly 2500 gopAla-mantras in an hour, so perhaps a million mantras, a quota for 400 hours, would be a befitting atonement to both express the regret of the sannyAsin and the gravity of the situation, as well as to purify his heart of any residual contamination not washed away by his natural vaiSNava-hood.

Dharma-zAstras for the modern age, anyone? I mean, dharma-zAstras were compiled over time and can be compiled as necessary, so who not prepare dharma-zAstra to match the necessities of the modern environment? AzA-dharma-zAstra, the religious codes of Elpis? How about that?
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 19:17:39 +0530
QUOTE
Of course, in the ISKCON/GM scenario we might want to see the sannyAsins perform some sort of atonement, so as to not generate an atmosphere in which people can get away with any damn thing.


It is better to avoid than to cure. The Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas have never prescribed any type of sannyasa, so if people were a bit more humble and would not grab a position of worship, which is anyway not scriptural as far as our SampradAy is concerned, all this would not be needed. Naturally there is no atonement mentioned in the GV shastras for breaking a vow that is also not mentioned in the GV shastras...... wink.gif
Madhava - Thu, 27 May 2004 19:21:16 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 27 2004, 01:47 PM)
It is better to avoid than to cure. The Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas have never prescribed any type of sannyasa, so if people were a bit more humble and would not grab a position of worship, which is anyway not scriptural as far as our SampradAy is concerned, all this would not be needed. Naturally there is no atonement mentioned in the GV shastras for breaking a vow that is also not mentioned in the GV shastras......  wink.gif

Haha, indeed.

But what of bAbAjIs?

Oh well, they're not mentioned either.

But what of renunciates in general?
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 19:49:35 +0530
QUOTE
But what of renunciates in general?


Choto Haridas atoned with suicide, and Mahaprabhu said 'well done'..... wink.gif
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 20:48:06 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 27 2004, 09:24 AM)
sannyAsopanishads?  blink.gif

It is a class of upaniSads that detail the rules and regulations of sannyAsins.

QUOTE
Madhava already quoted from the Bhagavata and BRS that for a chanter of the name of Vishnu no atonement is required. Perhaps these prescriptions you know of refer to those who are either not Vaishnavas or are not aware of the benign redeeming power of the holy name?

They are generally not vaiSNavas, but monists. I did say that I was basing my post on the sannyAsopaniSads after all biggrin.gif There is a vaiSNava text in this classe too, though.

QUOTE
It is really infamy to himself, rather than in the communities where he is known. That is, his personal honour and conscience is damaged. That also goes for the kapat sadhu who secretly breaks his vow. The community may not know it, but he himself faces infamy and a bad conscience.

So he atones and continues with his spiritual practice. Yes, he may feel bad, but he is not disqualified: he needs to atone and then move on. The real serious sin for a renouncer is to leave his renounced status and again assume a position in varNAzrama. That is heavily condemned in the texts. A sexual slip can be atoned, but leaving the renounced order is serious, very serious. Such a person is an ArUDha-patita.

QUOTE
QUOTE
KRSNa's words in the GItA are aimed at a kSatriya, a person with a different disposition.

True, honour is important to the ksatriya (BG 18.43) but everyone else has a sense of honour too. It is a general rule, particularly for the sambhAvita, a person who has enjoyed honour like sannyasis typically do, hence I added the quotation from the CC about sannyasis. I could have picked out a similar quotation in a different context, but this is the one I know best.

Well, it is said that a sannyAsin are supposed to act as a fool, a madman or a ghoul. He is not supposed to interact with people in a way where honor can be directed towards him. Some types of sannyAsins are not allowed to use their hands for eating. The donor will throw food on the ground and the sannyAsin has to get down on all four and eat it using only his lips and tongue. There are other irrational and improper behaviours that sannyAsins adopt in order to attract scorn from the general populace. They are deliberately seeking dishonor and alienation from society at large. Remember when Zukadeva arrives in BhAgavata-purANa? His crazy behaviour had attracted women and children who were following him and making fun of him. They certainly did not honor him; only the sages could see his real position. Zukadeva was not technically a sannyAsin, but his behaviour conform with the rules. Of course, people came to see these traits as something divine...
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 21:31:20 +0530
QUOTE
The real serious sin for a renouncer is to leave his renounced status and again assume a position in varNAzrama. That is heavily condemned in the texts. A sexual slip can be atoned, but leaving the renounced order is serious, very serious. Such a person is an ArUDha-patita.


That is interesting - that may be why so many non-celibate sannyasis and babajis in India just go on wearing their dress despite it all. Obviously their western counterparts do not know of this condemnation. You have any shastrik reference for this? Is it in the sannyasopanishads? And what of repeat-offenders? I suppose you refer here to one-time accidental offenders.
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 22:02:06 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 27 2004, 12:01 PM)
QUOTE
The real serious sin for a renouncer is to leave his renounced status and again assume a position in varNAzrama. That is heavily condemned in the texts. A sexual slip can be atoned, but leaving the renounced order is serious, very serious. Such a person is an ArUDha-patita.

That is interesting - that may be why so many non-celibate sannyasis and babajis in India just go on wearing their dress despite it all. Obviously their western counterparts do not know of this condemnation. You have any shastrik reference for this? Is it in the sannyasopanishads? And what of repeat-offenders? I suppose you refer here to one-time accidental offenders.

There are verses to this effect in the ZATyAyanIyopaniSad (which is vaiSNava by the way), but I do not have it at hand. I will look it up later.

Yes, I am referring to accidents. I cannot recall any injunctions regarding repeated offenders.
Advaitadas - Thu, 27 May 2004 22:19:50 +0530
QUOTE
Yes, I am referring to accidents. I cannot recall any injunctions regarding repeated offenders.


Would be mighty interesting if you looked that up too.
braja - Thu, 27 May 2004 22:26:40 +0530
Is anyone familiar with Olivelle and Ramanathan? I just ordered Ramanathan's "The Samnyasa Upanisads" a few days back and then came across Olivelle now. Seems that he is quite the scholar on dharma and sannyasa related topics: http://inic.utexas.edu/asnic/pages/facultyCVs/JPO/jpocv.html
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 22:55:48 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ May 27 2004, 12:56 PM)
Is anyone familiar with Olivelle and Ramanathan? I just ordered Ramanathan's "The Samnyasa Upanisads" a few days back and then came across Olivelle now. Seems that he is quite the scholar on dharma and sannyasa related topics: http://inic.utexas.edu/asnic/pages/facultyCVs/JPO/jpocv.html

Yes, I have read most of his works. He is a very good scholar. He also translated many of the older upaniSads. I have a copy of his translation of the sannyAsopaniSads, too. Schrader's would be the best Sanskrit edition of them, but there are others.
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 23:08:00 +0530
Olivelle is working on a critical edition of the MAnava-dharma-zAstra. I wonder how far along he is. I asked him a few questions when I was working on a short text about yati-dharma some time back. He is very friendly and open, and, as I said, a very good scholar. His books are worthwhile having.
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 23:11:26 +0530
To continue my flood of posts: Olivelle has also written an excellent book about the history of VarNAzrama. It is expensive, but an excellent resource.
braja - Thu, 27 May 2004 23:24:01 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 27 2004, 01:41 PM)
To continue my flood of posts: Olivelle has also written an excellent book about the history of VarNAzrama.  It is expensive, but an excellent resource.

This one?

1993. The Asrama System: History and Hermeneutics of a Religious Institution. New York: Oxford University Press. 274 pages.

It is a shame that academic books are so expensive. I managed to get a bunch of Bhrgu's "As Good as God" but I don't know if there will be much demand due to the price. With the the addition of shipping and the exchange rate to the already high academic pricing, they aren't cheap. I have found that some university presses will give reasonable discounts (40%) for relatively small orders (10+) so if there is demand for any particular books I can look into it. I'll be getting some of Ed Bryant's books in this way. Actually, I'll start a spearate thread on this later in case anyone wants to suggest titles that are either hard to get or too expensive at retail.
Elpis - Thu, 27 May 2004 23:27:03 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ May 27 2004, 01:54 PM)
This one?

1993. The Asrama System: History and Hermeneutics of a Religious Institution. New York: Oxford University Press. 274 pages.

Yes, that is the one. I bought a copy and it is worth having.

QUOTE
It is a shame that academic books are so expensive.

Tell me about it. A festschrift was published at the end of last year in honor of my professor. It is an excellent volume, but it costs $288 (!). Fortunately I got a free copy as I helped a bit with putting it together.
Elpis - Fri, 28 May 2004 21:00:54 +0530
Dear Advaitadas,

I dug up my copy of Olivelle's translation of the sannyAsopaniSads and found the relevant portion of the ZATyAyanIyopaniSad. There is a copy of the Sanskrit text in my department; I will try to look that up later. Here is Olivelle's translation:

Now, my dear, he who abandons this state of renunciation, the final dharma of the self, is a slayer of a hero, he is a slayer of a Brahmin, he is a slayer of an embryo, and he is guilty of a great crime. He who gives up this VaiSNava state is a thief, he is a violator of his teacher's bed, he is a treacherous friend, he is an ingrate, and he is banished from all these worlds. This very point has been declared in these Vedic verses:

A thief, one who drinks liquor, a violator of his teacher's bed, and a treacherous friend--these become purified through expiations. But he who bears the manifest or the unmanifest emblem of ViSNu and then abandons it, is not purified by all the lustre of the self.

The utter fool who, after abandoning the internal or the external emblem of ViSNu, resorts to his own order or to a non-order, or who undergoes an expiation--we see no happy issue for such people even after 10 million eons.

Abandoning all other orders, let a wise man live long in the order devoted to liberation. There is no happy issue for one who has fallen from the order devoted to liberation.

He who takes to renunciation and then fails to persevere in his own dharma should be known as an apostate--so the Vedas teach.

Sincerely,
Elpis
Advaitadas - Fri, 28 May 2004 21:22:07 +0530
Thanks Elpis. Would be mighty interesting to study the Sanskrit text, especially about the emblems of Vishnu and the luster of the self (text 2) and the damnation despite expiation (text 3)!
Elpis - Fri, 28 May 2004 23:11:43 +0530
Here is the Sanskrit text of the passage from the ZATyAyanIyopaniSad. I am taking the text from the edition of the sannyAsopaniSads edited by T. R. Chintamani Dikshit and published by the Adyar Library and Research Centre.

atha khalu somyedaM pArivrAjyaM naiSThikam AtmadharmaM yo vijahAti sa vIrahA bhavati, sa brahmahA bhavati, sa bhrUNahA bhavati, sa mahApAtakI bhavati | ya imAM vaiSNavIM niSThAM parityajati sa steno bhavati, sa gurutalpago bhavati, sa mitradhrug bhavati, sa kRtaghno bhavati, sa sarvAn lokAn pracyuto bhavati | tad etad RcAbhyuktam --

stenaH surApo gurutalpagAmI mitradhrug ete niSkRter yAnti zuddhim |
vyaktam avyaktaM vA vidhRtaM viSNuliGgaM tyajan na zudhyed akhilair AtmabhAsA || 28 ||

tyaktvA viSNor liGgam antar bahir vA yaH svAzramaM sevate 'nAzramaM vA |
pratyApattiM bhajate vAtimUDho naiSAM gatiH kalpakoTyApi dRSTA || 29 ||

tyaktvA sarvAzramAn dhIro vasen mokSAzrame ciram |
mokSAzramAt paribhraSTo na gatis tasya vidyate || 30 ||

pArivrAjyaM gRhItvA tu yaH svadharme na tiSThati |
tam ArUDhacyutaM vidyAd iti vedAnuzAsanam || 31 ||
Elpis - Sat, 29 May 2004 03:36:36 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 28 2004, 11:52 AM)
Thanks Elpis. Would be mighty interesting to study the Sanskrit text, especially about the emblems of Vishnu and the luster of the self (text 2) and the damnation despite expiation (text 3)!

The manifest emblem of ViSNu is the sannyAsin's daNDa, and the unmanifest one is the sannyAsin's control over his body, his speech and his mind.
Elpis - Sat, 29 May 2004 06:13:02 +0530
QUOTE(braja @ May 27 2004, 12:56 PM)
Is anyone familiar with Olivelle and Ramanathan? I just ordered Ramanathan's "The Samnyasa Upanisads" a few days back and then came across Olivelle now.

Sorry, I should have commented on Ramanathan earlier. When I read some of the sannyAsopaniSads at university, we used Schrader's edition and the only help was his Sanskrit TippaNI. I later came across Ramanathan's translation and then Olivelle's. Here is what Olivelle has to say about Ramanathan's translation: "Besides being an extremely poor and inaccurate translation, it is not based on Schrader's critical edition but follows by and large Dikshit's edition of the version commented on by UpaniSadbrahmayogin." I tend to agree with this assessment. Olivelle translation is the better one for sure. I used Dikshit's edition above because, unfortunately, we do not have Schrader's edition here. I knew that I should have made a copy of it before I left Denmark sad.gif
Radharaman - Sat, 29 May 2004 17:12:26 +0530
I think perhaps one should also question what one has done that would lead to the need to atone. Why is it that after so many years of bhajan devotees still fall down, and this applies not just to ISKCON/GM, but to all of us. We should apply the same care to our thoghts,words and deeds as someone disarming a bomb would to cutting the right wire. Vaishnava Aparadha is not called the mad elephant offence for nothing.
kalki - Sun, 30 May 2004 10:26:27 +0530
QUOTE
The real serious sin for a renouncer is to leave his renounced status and again assume a position in varNAzrama. That is heavily condemned in the texts. A sexual slip can be atoned, but leaving the renounced order is serious, very serious. Such a person is an ArUDha-patita.



I am surprised because isn't honesty the best policy, so if a sannyasi honestly knows he can't keep a vow, than it should be better to step down than to remain and secretly make a mistake. Especially when one knows that it might repeat.
Elpis - Sun, 30 May 2004 18:38:47 +0530
QUOTE(kalki @ May 30 2004, 12:56 AM)
I am surprised because isn't honesty the best policy, so if a sannyasi honestly knows he can't keep a vow, than it should be better to step down than to remain and secretly make a mistake. Especially when one knows that it might repeat.

I personally agree that honesty is the best policy, but we have to understand what is at work when a person accepts sannyAsa. According to Hindu belief, a person exists in a sort of intermediary state after passing away. He is dead, but not yet in the next body. A man who has accepted sannyAsa is considered to exist in this in-between state until the death of the physical body, i.e. he is no longer among the living. That is why the sannyAsin, while being exalted, is also impure--he is dead!--and there are various rules for dealing with sannyAsins that takes this impurity into account.

As you can imagine, returning to, say, being a brAhmaNa householder after having accepted sannyAsa creates an awkward situation given this understanding of the sannyAsin's status.
Advaitadas - Sun, 30 May 2004 18:41:35 +0530
Interesting. Is this also in the sannyasopanishads, or, wherever it is from, could you quote some evidence of this?
Elpis - Sun, 30 May 2004 19:35:20 +0530
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 30 2004, 09:11 AM)
Interesting. Is this also in the sannyasopanishads, or, wherever it is from, could you quote some evidence of this?

I do not recall any references offhand, sorry. As I am leaving tomorrow, I do not have so much time to search. However, Olivelle has a section on this in the introduction to his translation of the sannyAsopaniSads. It is on pp. 89-94. I will cite a few portions.

QUOTE(From pp. 89-90:)
Renunciation was considered the ritual death of the renouncer; that the renouncer is a ritually dead person, even though he is physically alive, is a significant aspect of BrAhmaNical theology of renunciation. The fact that renunciation is a non-ritual state, for example, can be explained theologically on the basis of the ritually dead status of a renouncer. People are obliged to perform rites only until death.

QUOTE(From p. 90:)
Several elements of renunciation bear striking resemblance to the BrAhmaNical rites associated with the dying and the dead. Many medieval sources, including the NAradaparivrAjaka UpaniSad (NpU 162-163), for example, prescribe the offering of eight oblations (zrAddha) prior to the rite of renunciation. The last of these is offered to the renouncer's grandfather and father, and to himself.

QUOTE(From pp. 90-1:)
A ceremony in the rite of renunciation that signals the imminent death of the renouncer is taken from the ancient ceremony (saMpratti or saMpradAna) that was to be performed by a man who was about to die (see chapter 3, n. 1).

On p. 94 Olivelle cites an episode from the life of Agehananda Bharati, who relates that when he came to take prasAda at the VizvanAtha temple, the priest gave it to him using his left hand, the same hand that one uses to offer oblations to the pitRs, the departed ancestors. Olivelle comments:
QUOTE(From p. 94:)
The renouncer, on the one hand, is as impure as a dead man and the priest has to use the left hand to deal with him so as not to pollute the food given to other people. On the other hand, he is higher than the god enthroned in the temple whom he is entitled to bless.

I hope that this helps a bit.
Elpis - Sun, 30 May 2004 19:39:00 +0530
By the way, the below request was just sent to the Indology list. Perhaps some answers that will be of interest to us will be submitted. I will keep an eye open.

QUOTE
Dearest Professors:
Namaste:
I am looked for sources from the vasinava tradition or in other sampradayas, if is there
specific statement in its sastras, that a sannyasi who has fallen into sense
gratification (nor sex, but romantic contac with a women) and then recitified his position, should formally give up the sannyasa ashrama? Or if him (sannyasi) can be reinstalled in his sannyasi order? Could you send me some references on this respect?
Prfr. Horacio F. Arganis J.
IEFAC and U A de C.

(I believe this gentleman is a disciple of Hrdayananda. Perhaps he has Satsvarupa in mind?)
Madhava - Sun, 30 May 2004 20:34:59 +0530
Or Hridayananda. Anyway, that's not for this thread...
betal_nut - Mon, 31 May 2004 02:25:28 +0530
The sannyasi is considered rituallly dead?
Then why is sannyas considered a social ashram (the 4th) in the varnashram system?
Elpis - Mon, 31 May 2004 03:27:45 +0530
QUOTE(betal_nut @ May 30 2004, 04:55 PM)
The sannyasi is considered rituallly dead?
Then why is sannyas considered a social ashram (the 4th) in the varnashram system?

As KRSNa says in the 11th book of the BhAgavata-purANa, AzramANAm ahaM turyo, "Among the Azramas I am the fourth (sannyAsa)." Yes, sannyAsa is an Azrama, and yes, a sannyAsin is considered ritually dead. Is there a problem?
betal_nut - Mon, 31 May 2004 03:30:38 +0530
The problem is, how can a dead person be part of a social system?
Elpis - Mon, 31 May 2004 03:36:14 +0530
QUOTE(betal_nut @ May 30 2004, 06:00 PM)
The problem is, how can a dead person be part of a social system?

A sannyAsin is not a part of the social system other than his dependence on food from common people. He is supposed to wander without a fixed destination, staying only for brief periods in villages, etc. to beg his food. He is not himself allowed to use fire. The Brahmanical theologians worked the order into the system as the fourth Azrama, but sannyAsins are, in reality, quite, quite removed from social life.
braja - Wed, 02 Jun 2004 01:22:25 +0530
QUOTE(Elpis @ May 28 2004, 06:06 PM)
QUOTE(Advaitadas @ May 28 2004, 11:52 AM)
Thanks Elpis. Would be mighty interesting to study the Sanskrit text, especially about the emblems of Vishnu and the luster of the self (text 2) and the damnation despite expiation (text 3)!

The manifest emblem of ViSNu is the sannyAsin's daNDa, and the unmanifest one is the sannyAsin's control over his body, his speech and his mind.

FWIW, Ramanathan has a footnote to the verses mentioned earlier:

QUOTE
The external sign of ViSNu is said to be doing personal service to the spiritual Guru; the internal one is remaining in the state of spiritual wisdom.


There's no indication of where the commentary (of Upanishad Brahmayogin) enters into his footnotes.
Madanmohan das - Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:59:36 +0530
Are not those born outside the varnasrama system debarred from sannyasa?
If it where so then many who have taken it should not have, and so apprihending the error, return to "normal life" might be deemed more beneficial than trying to uphold a status for which he is not eligable anyway. More over, what about the sloka where sannyasa is forbiden in the degenerate age of kali? That's probably been discussed already.

ohmy.gif Maybe because over attachment to visaya, but talk of sannyasa is quite frightening.
Keshava - Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:17:18 +0530
Since it has been said that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati reinstituted the taking of Tridandi Sannyasa taking the idea from the Ramanuja Sampradaya (the only other place you find tridandi sannyasis these days) I would think that the members of ISKCON/GM could find Vaisnava prescriptions also for tridandi sannyasins in the literature of that sampradaya. I was specifically thinking of Yati Dharma Samucchaya by Yadhava Prakasha. Then again if they are interested in prescriptions about sannyasa in their own sampradaya they could try Visnu Tirtha's Sannyasa Paddhati. (Since they belong to Brahma MADHVA Gaudiya sampradaya) These are the only two sources on Vaisnava sannyasa that I can think of.

Keshava

PS I have Visnu Tirtha's Sanyasa Paddhati in Sanskrit but I think that I don't have Yati Dharma samucchaya.
Jagat - Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:03:50 +0530
So if you have sannyasa-paddhati, how about typing it up in transliteration for Gaudiya Grantha Mandir?
Keshava - Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:19:05 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Jun 26 2004, 10:33 AM)
So if you have sannyasa-paddhati, how about typing it up in transliteration for Gaudiya Grantha Mandir?

That would be quite a project. It would be easier for me to scan and turn the original Devanagari into a PDF for anyone to read. What is the standard on GGM?

Keshava
Madhava - Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:34:26 +0530
That's of course also good, but the problem with scanned texts is that they take an awful lot of space and bandwidth. The minimum printable quality is around 150dpi grayscale, and with JPEG 40 compression a page takes around 250-300 KB. 100 pages scanned content is thus 30 MB instead of 300 KB text, it's a hundred times more. But if you can scan it in, I'm sure we can find someone to key it in.
Jagat - Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:02:30 +0530
At Gaudiya Grantha Mandir we are primarily trying to gather texts in electronic format, which are searchable, and can be edited and manipulated by any user. Though scanned texts are extremely valuable, they cannot serve all these purposes. We have talked about eventually storing scanned texts on our database, this is not our current preoccupation.

We are starting with getting the texts up in any form possible, then gradually upgrading them through correction, provided alternative readings, adding commentaries, etc.

I first got into this through the inspiration provided by Peter Schreiner (currently at the University of Zurich) when he was at SOAS. He was into a text-crunching program called TUSTEP, which he used to do a study of Brahma Purana. Since I was interested in issues of authorship, etc., I figured there were a great many uses that such electronic texts could be put to.

Their searchability is the first immediately valuable function, but gradually, with text markups, there is so much more that will be possible. Many of the world's classical languages are already in a well-advanced stage of digitalisation. I'd like to see the Gaudiya Vaishnava and Sanskrit kavya corpus to be collected in this way and it is one of my many missions. Trying to find a little help.

Peter Schreiner said: If you are going to study a text anyway, then why not take the time to type it out and contribute to this important project? I have gone way beyond that, of course, but still it is my basic principle. That's why I have so many Bhagavata chapters started, but not finished. When I look up a commentary, I type it out.

So, if you are reading something that we don't already have, type it out and send it in! If we have it, proofread it or add alternative readings. This is a great service to the Six Goswamis and all the acharyas.

Please forgive me for suddenly putting pressure on you. It's nothing personal. From time to time I feel obliged to do a little recruiting.
Madhava - Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:15:50 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Jun 26 2004, 06:32 PM)
I'd like to see the Gaudiya Vaishnava and Sanskrit kavya corpus to be collected in this way and it is one of my many missions.

Care to let us in on the secret, the other missions are ____________ ? smile.gif
Jagat - Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:32:30 +0530
I doubt I have as many missions as you, bhai.
Madhava - Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:12:09 +0530
bahu-zAkhA hy anantAz ca buddhayo'vyavasAyinAm |