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Lord Siva in christian cosmology -
kanai - Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:08:19 +0530
As i was student( i am not anymore) of different occult orders and practices, and mystic practices in different religions in past i was always puzzled about how different demigods are related to judeo-christian,islamic,orisha(this one i am still studiying) and pagan worship.Once i have asked one Iskcon prominent guru how can one actually view Lord Shiva in judeo-christian pantheon or cosmology.His answer was that he is actually Satan,because he takes care of really fallen souls and demons like pisacas etc.Such souls actually enter wombs of women which are having illicit relationships in time of a day or night which is actually not good for concieving a child.Persons are also sometimes drunk or under some drugs.They are also called succubi and incubi.In that way Kali Yuga children are coming in this world, or how we say varna shankara.
Back to question,what is the relation between Varuna,Neptun and Poseydon?Or Indra and Thor?Are they same personalities?What do you think is the above statement about Lord Shiva correct?
Radhapada - Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:42:24 +0530
Once i have asked one Iskcon prominent guru how can one actually view Lord Shiva in judeo-christian pantheon or cosmology.His answer was that he is actually Satan
Radhe Radhe. Wew! Calling Lord Shiva the above I would say is quite offensive to Shiva. ISKCON bhaktas sometimes play down on Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva is a form of God. In Bhakti Sandarbha 106 Jiva Goswami cites a story of a devotee brahmana who was a devotee of Lord Hari. While travelling in the forest he met a boy who asked him if he can worship his Shiva Lingam because he was sick. The brahmana replied that he doesn't worship Shiva because he is a Vaisnava. The boy was going to kill the brahmana. In order to save his own life the brahmana agreed. While worshipping the Shiva Lingam the brahmana began to meditate on Lord Nrsimha who destroys demons in the mode of ignorance. He began making offerings of flowers chanting nrisimhaya namah. The boy heard this mantra and became furious and was about to swing a sword over the brahmana's head when at that moment the Shiva Lingam cracked open and Lord Nrisimhadeva appeared. He killed the boy and his family and saved the brahmana. This story shows the nondifference between Hari and Shiva. (Taken from a commentary on Madhurya Kadambini by Ananta das Pandit)
How can Shiva Mahadeva be equated with someone who in the Christian concept of theology, is responsible for influencing human beings to be outright sinful and atheistic? I see no point in speculating about who are the counterparts of who in the various religions and mythological fables because there is no authoritive proof to verify these things. To even say things like 'the name of Christ and Krsna are the same' for the sake of trying to win favor with Christians I think is also misleading, because Christ and Krishna are not the same. The Supreme Brahman doesn't perform a lila of being lashed a hundred times and get nailed on a cross to death. Even some Christian leaders today, after researching historical evidence, are highly sceptical about whether the Jesus in Bible is the real Jesus in history. Present day Christian teachings is a melting pot of various 'pagan' influences instituted in order to win favor with people of various barbaric or Roman religious cultures of the time. The speculations could be endless.
Advaitadas - Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:08:16 +0530
QUOTE(kanai @ Aug. 02 2002,06:38)
Once i have asked one Iskcon prominent guru how can one actually view Lord Shiva in judeo-christian pantheon or cosmology.His answer was that he is actually Satan,because he takes care of really fallen souls and demons like pisacas etc.
In that way Kali Yuga children are coming in this world, or how we say varna shankara.
What do you think is the above statement about Lord Shiva correct?
If you refer to the words in Bhagavad Gita 1.40-41, the words are often misspelled. It is varna sankara, a race of bastards, and not varna shankara, the race of Shiva. There is absolutely no link here between bastards and Shiva. ?
kanai - Fri, 02 Aug 2002 23:44:22 +0530
Advaita and Radhapada prabhus,thank you so much for your answers.Especially i seriously didn't know about mispelling of Varna Sankara.Can you please explain that further if it is possible,Advaita prabhu.Seems there are then more of mistakes in those translations.What was i reading then?
Madhava - Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:52:28 +0530
Almost invariably the mythologies around the world have several figures which resemble each other. To begin with, it is an unanswered question whether they all are derived from a common origin (such as the Vedas), and if so, to what extent. Even if so, in their present state these legends of gods are a result of centuries of evolution, both in terms of the gods' personalities and histories related with them. Thus it hardly serves any bhakti-purpose to initiate a comparative study, at least for all I can see. I find it unlikely that such a study could yield any further understanding into the Vedic body of literature, given the reasons I mentioned above.
As far as Satan and other such figures go, the idea of equating Lucifer with Shiva is a far cry from a correct answer, given the obvious differences between the nature of Lucifer the fallen angel and Shiva the elevated devotee. It only creates a big mess when people try to be smart and present something from various legends or philosophies without being well acquainted with them.
adiyen - Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:19:48 +0530
"Satan" has a complex history. The fact that he has been called 'Lucifer' (bearer of light) alerts us to this. In the earlier parts of the Bible, such as Job, Satan is a witness and tester of humans. Later parts of Old Testament are thought to have been influenced by the exile in Persia, from whence the idea of an absolute battle between good and evil is thought to have originated.
Ancient Persians and Vedic Aryans were united, with a common language and belief. At some point they divided, Vedic and Persian texts suggest they came to see each other as usurpers of land and cows. A prophet arose in Persia called Zorastra. The Vedic Devas came to be seen by Persians as evil, with their leader Indra. Our word Devil is derived from Deva through Persian sources. The word Shetan (Satan) may just have been Persian for Chaitan: Ghost, eventually used for all evil spirits. Persians invented a whole theology/demonology to separate themselves from Indian Aryans. This included inventing Angels as opponents of Devas, and opposing plurality and humanlike form of godhead.
Meanwhile, 'Whereas in some other cultures the rope-trick would have been ascribed to the promptings of the devil and all references to it suppressed, in India it was regarded with amused benevolence. The fundamental sanity of Indian civilization has been due to an absence of Satan.' (Thapar, R, A History of India, Penguin, p15).
Before comparing European theologies to Indian we ought to be aware of the differences in thinking and the impact those had. Christianity and Islam took up Judaic (but originally Persian) ideas and turned them into an ideology of imperial conquest.
To understand India it is necessary to make a paradigm shift in one's thinking, to get out of the ingrained mindset. Until one does this, of course one will be likely to commit offense.
adiyen - Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:41:40 +0530
But the humble respectful Vaishnava bhakta naturally achieves this paradigm shift in thinking without making any extraneous effort, of course!
(Madhavji, what's happened to 'edit' function?)
Advaitadas - Mon, 05 Aug 2002 14:26:11 +0530
Dear Kanai, the words varna sankara in Bhagavad Gita are not connected with Shiva. I suppose you made the link with SB 3rd Skandha, Chapter 14, dealing with Diti’s pregnancy. The ghosts, protectees of Shiva, may have assaulted Diti’s womb because she conceived at twilight, an inauspicious time, whereas the Gita verses 1.40-41 deal with widows that run after married men and get illicit children from them. Arjuna did not want to kill so many men, to avoid creating so many widows who would then become a threat to the wives of the remaining men. The words varna sankara accidentally resemble Shankar, the name of Shiva.
Mina - Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:23:44 +0530
There are various methodologies used by Historians of Religion when looking for patterns in comparative studies. What is interesting is that many of the same patterns begin to emerge in a way not dependent on the culture or its geographic location. Whether or not there are true bhakti traditions that have evolved on their own outside of India is a very good question. We have the rapture of Christian saints, which might be a good candidate, but that would take some intensive research to come up with anything definitive. We could say that there is some strong evidence that various mystics have tapped into the same underlying reality, which was merely colored by their own world views. It could be a universal experience of different levels of prema as we understand it. Then again, that could just be a misconception on our part.
Just some thoughts, not at all a thesis.
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