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Gaudiya Discussions Archive » PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY
Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.

Fixed mood in tatastha? -



phulla - Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:52:00 +0530
I come to this learned scholar forum in dandavats with one humble question . And as a beginner in raganuga I ask your enlighment.
I have heard recently that the jiva in tatastha has already , in seed form, the project for his own sidha deha.
And that the guru ´s job is only to make room for that seed development. Then the guru will not or could not change the mood of his disciple.
Please correct if I am wrong, based on Murari Gupta and Anupama story (they couldn’t leave their own mood – dasa in connection to Ramacandra) this allegation seems coherent. But I heard that in a gaudiya math class and as far as know they get used to hold back information. (no offense).
If so, I am asking you, what is the point of Caitanya Mahaprabhu´s mercy. His mission was not supposed to overflow the whole world with the utmost love (manjari bhava)?
Humbly
phulla
Madhava - Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:23:22 +0530
QUOTE(phulla @ Dec 1 2003, 12:22 AM)
I have heard recently that the jiva in tatastha has already , in seed form, the project for his own sidha deha.
And that the guru ´s job is only to make room for that seed development. Then the guru will not or could not change the mood of his disciple.

This is the siddhanta of Gaudiya Math, and seems to be drawn from Bhaktivinod's comment on Siksastakam. Otherwise, there is little evidence to prove the idea. I do not understand why it has become such a crucial point for the Saraswata people.

QUOTE
Please correct if I am wrong, based on Murari Gupta and Anupama story (they couldn’t leave their own mood – dasa in connection to Ramacandra)  this allegation seems coherent. But I heard that in a gaudiya math class and as far as know they get used to hold back information. (no offense).

One who is already fixed in a certain sthayi-bhava will obviously not change his mood. Therefore the examples given do not prove anything about the status of those who are yet to attain sthayi-bhava, or even bhakti to begin with.

As I said in the Jiver Swarup topic, I once put together an essay reflecting on this issue. I'll revise it a bit and post it in.
Jagat - Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:17:54 +0530
This is another version of the predestination/free will quandary.

Can we change our destiny? Then answer is: Whether we can or not, we must act as though we could.
phulla - Fri, 05 Dec 2003 07:09:34 +0530
Jaya Radhe,
Dear friends, I could found today what GM guys are using to hold up their hypothesis, please; I am a blind man in need to be guided. I come here to learn with you in a spirit of humility.
To support their conclusion they are using one old lecture by Hrsikesa Maharaja in 1955, occasion of the karttika-vrata, niyamaseva, parikrama of Vraja-manala at the sri Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha in Mathura. here are one of the verses and some of their conclusions.
Bhakti-ras€mta-sindhu (1.2.2),
nitya siddhasya bhavasya
prakatyam hrdi sadhyata
“it is not that sadhana is creating something new. In fact, sadhana is done with the only goal to bring up the manifestation of the bhava which is inside the svarupa of the jiva..”
Using English Translation and Brief Notes by Victor D. DiCara (Vraja Kishor das) of the same verse BRS it goes (the only I have) (BRS 1.2.2):
kRti-sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya-bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA |
nitya-siddhasya bhAvasya prAkaTyaM hRdi sAdhyatA ||2||
"When the senses emulate the goal of bhakti with the intention to internalize that goal, it is called sadhana. The goal is to manifest eternally-perfect bhava-bhakti in the heart."
An initial familiarity with two words is helpful: (1) sAdhya - "the goal," and (2) sAdhana - "the means to obtain the goal."
Sadhya - The Goal , Rupa Goswami says that the goal of sadhana-bhakti is to manifest eternally perfect bhava-bhakti in ones heart. Does sadhana create bhava? No, bhava-bhakti eternally exists ("nitya"). Then does sadhana develop or cultivate bhava from an imperfect state to a perfect state? No, bhava-bhakti is eternally perfect ("nitya-siddha"). What then does sadhana do? It can cause eternally perfect bhava-bhakti to manifest ("prAkaTyaM") in one's heart ("hRdi"). Initially, bhava-bhakti is unmanifest ("aprakaTa") in the heart - present only in a potential state. Sadhana causes it to manifest.

To support their point of view they have quoted:
The following commentary of the verse 1 sri siksastha by srila Bhaktvinodha Thakura
Ceto darpana marjanam ityodina jivasya svarupa tattvam vivrtam. tatha
srimajjvaracaranah jivakhya-samastasakti visistasya paramatattvasya khalvamsa
ekojivah. tatha srimad vedanta bhasyakaro pi— vibhucaitanyamisvaro'nucaitanyam
jivah, nityam jnanadigunakatram asmad arthatvam cobhayatra jnanasyapi
jnatrtvam prakasasya raveh prakasakatvavadavidruddham. etena jivasya nutam
citsvarupatvam suddhaharikara suddhacitta—suddhadehavisistatvarica jnapitam.
paresa vaismukhyat bahiranga-bhavavistatvacca suddhahankaragata suddha-
cittasyavidyamala dusanamapi sucitam.

And Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya (8.51) :'yasya yatsangatih pumso manivat syat sa tad gunah.'
And (Bhag. 7.1.28)


By the other side we have the following

Srila Narottama Th€kura, in Prema Bhakti Candrika,
verse 8 chapter 5 to GM or verse 55 to GV
yugala caraëa sevi, nirantara ei bhävi,
anurägé thäkibo sadäya.
sädhana bhävibo yähä, siddha-dehe päbo tähä
räga pathera ei se upäya (55)
"I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus-feet of the Divine
Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my
spiritual practice I will attain in my siddha deha when I reach perfection. This is
the means of räga bhakti." (Advaita dasa translation)
Baba in his commentaries says that:
“ there is a most transcendentally scientific truth hidden in the manual of the gaudiya vaisnavas´meditation on astakala lila.
In the chandogya upanisad 3.14.1 it is seen- yasya kratur asmilloke purso bhavbati tathetgah pretya vhavati sa kratum kurvila , meaning: Whatever mentality a jiva maintains in the world, he will be endowed with that mentality also when he goes from this place. Let therefore the aspirant take shelter of this mentality”
(Baba has quoted brhad anaryaka upanisad 4.4.5, gita 8.6, and bhagavata 11.15.26)
Baba continues, “ such meditation of the sadhaka, which induces the shelter of the supreme Lord and which is a powerful assistant to bhakti, which is the essence of the Lord´s pleasure potency, can never result in vain imagination.

My best guess - Maybe here we have why they are insisting so much on this point, the consequences would be accept or not lila smarana and sidha pranali. (correct me if I am wrong)
In conclusion, GM are saying that this svarupa is illuminated by the mercy of svarupa shakti, specifically by the addition of the essence of hladini and samvit
And we are saying “ As one worships and meditates, so one becomes” (I heard a lot in old times of the the iskcon, a saying by Prabhpada, “man propose and God disposes” (my awful Portuguese to English translation, sorry) , didn’t you)
In my worldly point of view , it seems to be some kind of incongruity in the sastras.
Any comments?
Madhava - Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:24:32 +0530
QUOTE
In my worldly point of view , it seems to be some kind of incongruity in the sastras.
Any comments?

The quotes you have presented do not directly state what the persons who cite them claim they do. It is a matter of interpretation.

The nitya-siddhasya bhAvasya - verse, it doesn't speak anything of something being potential in the heart, nor do the commentators say anything of the sort. It merely states that a certain nitya-siddha-bhava eventually manifests in the heart. It doesn't say whether the nitya-siddha bhava manifests from a latent form from within the heart or whether it descends from the hearts of the ragatmika-jana of Vraja into your heart when you meditate on their deeds and pray to them, longing to attain services similar to theirs.

We all agree that bhava is nitya-siddha. However, all this talk about latent forms and potentials is not there in the verses cited.

The commentary of Bhaktivinoda does propose a sort of latent-theory, but then again, that is not evidence in itself. Bhaktivinoda was a man of many innovations and unique theological formulations not found in the writings of the Gosvamis.

The verse from Hari-bhakti-sudhodhaya is counter-evidence, I can't see the point in citing that!

yasya yat-saGgatiH puMso maNivat syAt sa tad-guNaH |
sva-kulArddhyai tato dhImAn sva-yUthyAn eva saMzrayet ||

“With whomever a person associates, he adopts his qualities, just like a gem. Therefore thoughtful persons who desire abundance for their dynasty should seek refuge among those who are akin to oneself.” (Hari Bhakti Sudhodaya, quoted in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, 1.2.228-229 and Bhakti Sandarbha, Anuccheda 238)


If you are like a gem reflecting the qualities of whomever you associate with, that hardly speaks in favor of a latent svarupa! This verse is cited in explaining the need of associating with like-minded (sajAtIya) devotees.

Here's another interesting verse:

vraja-lokera kona bhAva laJA yei bhaje |
bhAva-yogya deha pAJA kRSNa pAya vraje ||

“Whoever accepts the bhava of the residents of Vraja and engages in bhajana appropriate for that bhava, he receives a body suitable for it, and attains Sri Krishna in Vraja.” (Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-lila, 8.122)